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“Nobody’s been talking about the root of the problem. Everybody’s just continued to say, ‘It’s bad drafting. Bad coaching. It’s injuries. It’s this. It’s that.’ This, for me, goes all the way back to the end of the 2015 season, where they only fired Tom Coughlin and they didn’t fire Jerry Reese with him. Since that point, nothing has been in alignment with one another. Because then after you fire coach Coughlin, you bring in Ben McAdoo. Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese are together. That doesn’t work out. Now you go to Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman. Pat Shurmur doesn’t work out. But then you keep Dave Gettleman again. Then you bring in another head coach. That does not work in the NFL. The head coach and the GM have to be on the same page, they have to come in together, or they have to have that community-building and that accountability to one another that when the ship goes down, I’m not going to be pointing at you because I have another year left on my contract. Or you’re not going to be pointing at me as the coach, saying ‘Well, I don’t have enough players.’ “When it comes to Daniel Jones, I don’t know why Giants fans are going crazy because just by bringing him back doesn’t mean he has to be your starting quarterback. You have all the leverage in the world in this operation. We know with those top draft picks, the Giants need to utilize those on the offensive line and on the defensive side of the ball as well. ... If I was the Giants general manager, I would bring in a veteran quarterback to compete for that job. That would not only help develop Daniel Jones but would bring out the best in Daniel Jones and say to Daniel Jones, ‘The opportunity to start is right in front of you, but you’re going to have to earn it.’” |
Thanks buddy. Took my usual in-season Sabbatical and back for GM/HC discussion, FA and to learn about potential draftees
And thanks for a great post.
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Welcome back! You've been sorely missed.
Thanks buddy. Took my usual in-season Sabbatical and back for GM/HC discussion, FA and to learn about potential draftees
Welcome back! Sadly, the more energy and excitement has been the offseason. Hopefully this is the turnaround offseason for us back up.
This is a welcome sight as always.
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Welcome back! You've been sorely missed.
Thanks buddy. Took my usual in-season Sabbatical and back for GM/HC discussion, FA and to learn about potential draftees
Welcome back! Sadly, the more energy and excitement has been the offseason. Hopefully this is the turnaround offseason for us back up.
They were busy being ex players. What exactly did you want them to do?
Really??? Ring of Honor???
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Ex players all these years while this stuff was happening?
They were busy being ex players. What exactly did you want them to do?
Wasn't Diehl doing tv/radio for the Giants previously? Pretty sure he made comments about this previously.
Put me in the corner for a GM that will hire Bill O'Biren and trade for vet QB named, Watson
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Ex players all these years while this stuff was happening?
They were busy being ex players. What exactly did you want them to do?
Diehl and Tynes have been doing media for awhile now. They didn’t just start yesterday.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
From the title of the OP it sounded like Diehl was saying that there is still going to be a problem...
I like it!
Welcome back!
They do face a big decision on picking up 2023, which Diehl doesn't mention.
Bringing in a vet QB to compete sounds fine, in theory, but a vet who can compete and win in the NFL is in demand and Giants are cap constrained.
Diehl also doesn't mention Jones' health issue. He has suffered four injuries while running the ball,the most recent being the most serious. That's a factor not easy to evaluate in a QB competition.
Hi Bruce, welcome back.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
ironically when you google 'marc ross promotion' one of the first results is the short BBI thread linked below. A poster named NYDCBlue was prescient.
NYDCBlue : 5/31/2013 10:13 pm : link
I've said several times in the past that I am not yet sold on Ross.
Actually, I wanted to reserve judgement on him until he had been around long enough to evaluate his work. Interestingly in the intervening years I have not grown any closer to a conclusion on Ross. I guess if push came to shove I would label him excruciatingly average. A JAG.
Has anyone else noticed the perceptible, even if not precipitous drop in the quality of our drafts since Ross has been running them?
Before anyone admonishes me, I know the drafts since Ross has been here haven't exactly been considered chock full of talent, but at some point all I am really concerned with is results....
The 2012 draft Ross was essentially promoted off was perhaps the worst in team history. David Wilson, Rueben Randle, Jayron Hosely, the JPP of TEs Adrien Robinson, Brandon Mosely, Matt McCants, Markus Kuhn. What a heap. The 2011 draft before that wasn't much better. Prince, Marvin Austin, Jernigan, James Brewer, Greg jones, Sash, Jaquian Williams, Da'rel Scott.
In the 3 straight drafts from 2011-2013 not a single player made it to a 2nd contract with the NYG. And only OBJ/Shep got 2nd contracts from the 2014-2017 drafts.
So Diehl is right that they shouldn't have kept Reese (and Ross) in 2015, but the better answer would have been to put Marc Ross on TV where he belonged far earlier than that.
Marc Ross Promoted to Vice President of Player Evaluation - ( New Window )
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
And if Daniel Jones is "Blaine Gabbert" as you suggest, they're not getting better than a 5th or 6th rounder for him anyway. At that point he holds more value to them as a 1 year placeholder for them in a competition with some other veteran or rookie.
I'm open-minded about this. If the new regime likes Corral or Pickett. Go do it. If they would rather use this opportunity of extra picks to build out more of the roster and let Jones and say, a guy like Trubisky fight it out for a year, that's fine too.
The point is Jones is no longer a long term consideration here barring some kind of light bulb going on in year 4.
I have a hunch Jones is going to have issues getting back on a football field anywhere due to his neck.
Where the GM and HC come in together are are both outside the organization?
Shurmur and Gettleman came together, but Dave was a Giants homer. I think before that it was Young/Perkins.
Young:Perkins/Parcells/Handley/Reeves/Fassel
Acorsi: Coughlin
Reese: Coughlin / McAdoo
Gettleman: Shurmur/Judge (wooooof)
?? : ??
In December of 2017 the Giants hired Dave Gettleman, and he and ownership subsequently hired Pat Shurmur. Perfect unison.
The principals were in lock step and they uniformly and expressly said the plan was to build up around Eli Manning.
They then spent at the top of the market at left tackle, used a top 35 pick on right guard, and signed a starting left guard to decent money.
I don’t blame Diehl for skipping this fact, as it crashed and burned around his good friend and long time team mate.
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
I doubt a new GM and coach feel that way, particularly if we draft a QB.
He also wouldn't bring back a comp pick - just impact the formula, potentially.
I would trade him for a bag of footballs, but the reality of the market is we could probably get about a fourth rounder for him. That's not nothing. We can be nearly certain he doesn't get another contract here, so what's the point?
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In comment 15550865 Go Terps said:
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
we could get a comp pick
either way, I think jones is more valuable as a lottery ticket or back up than what we could get in return. (unless some team wants to throw a couple 2s at us)
I doubt a new GM and coach feel that way, particularly if we draft a QB.
He also wouldn't bring back a comp pick - just impact the formula, potentially.
I would trade him for a bag of footballs, but the reality of the market is we could probably get about a fourth rounder for him. That's not nothing. We can be nearly certain he doesn't get another contract here, so what's the point?
well we will find out in 3-6 months exactly how the new coach/gm feel.
In my view he is worth more than a 4th either as the backup or reclamation project.
Either draft a QB or bring in a capable vet and let them compete, that would be my preferred plan of action.
Speculation for sure but, something is off there.
I agree with Diehl. It's funny seeing people blast Jones, Judge or Dave being problems and yada yada. Giants have been bad since 2012. Maybe further than that, but Eli balling out caused the problems to be addressed later. Not his fault. The management continually ignored fixing the line from then on, and has been band aided since. Late to the party addressing a serious need, and that was in 2011.
At the minimum Getts/Shurm was in that both came in fresh and Getts picked Shurm, no?
And it can’t be the case that GMs should always get fired with coaches, should it? Coaches generally get moved more often around the league.(Coaches may have to go when GMs go, though, for the alignment.)
Doesn’t the above suggest it was the GM choice and his picks for coach that was the root of the issue, since we did have alignment most times? What am I missing or did I miss the point he’s making?
Sign both, tell them they're fighting for the starting job. Trade Jones, get a pick. We've improved the QB depth chart, saved a little cap space, and gotten a pick.
Bringing Jones back only makes sense of you're considering keeping him beyond 2022, and no incoming GM is going to want to do that unless we rehire Gettleman.
Exactly. Diehl brushes over that fact, I suspect because that synchronization he claims is the answer, actually happened.
Like I posted above, I suspect he skips over that, because those two built their plan around Eli Manning. And of course that was really stupid.
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It's very possible the Giants do exactly what Diehl suggests.
That scenario ends up with Jones leaving the Giants for nothing after 2022.
And if Daniel Jones is "Blaine Gabbert" as you suggest, they're not getting better than a 5th or 6th rounder for him anyway. At that point he holds more value to them as a 1 year placeholder for them in a competition with some other veteran or rookie.
I'm open-minded about this. If the new regime likes Corral or Pickett. Go do it. If they would rather use this opportunity of extra picks to build out more of the roster and let Jones and say, a guy like Trubisky fight it out for a year, that's fine too.
The point is Jones is no longer a long term consideration here barring some kind of light bulb going on in year 4.
I have a hunch Jones is going to have issues getting back on a football field anywhere due to his neck.
the expected return compensation is simply not true. look what the eagles got for wentz and what the jets got for darnold. jones should fetch something similar
This alignment crap is horse puckies - bad decisions are bad decisions - it has nothing to do with alignment
This alignment crap is horse puckies - bad decisions are bad decisions - it has nothing to do with alignment
The earth stopped spinning their for a moment, because I think we agree!
Hope all is well!
Even with less-than-ideal circumstances, where are the special plays/skills to give anyone hope that this guy is the solution? In an honest moment, we all know that they are limited. And not enough to continue to roll him out there, cross our fingers, and hope he finally shows something.
Go watch Josh Allen his first two years in Buffalo. He struggled to hit the broad side of a barn. But for crissakes, the talent just jumped off the screen - the laser throws, the elusiveness, the running ability, etc.
Here's hoping a new GM/HC duo don't take too long to make this assessment so we can end this torture.
Each new coach will have his system. Yes, it should adjust to personnel, but overall they’re hired to implement their vision. But the players they inherit may not be a fit. (Pioli talked about BB going to Cleveland where Hugh Douglas tried, but was just not a 2-gap DE.) And roster turnover takes a few years. By changing every two years you end up with both a coach never getting the guys in place, and a mosh mash of guys for different systems.
They need a GM they believe in. Hire a coach you believe in. Give him the actual time to Fing get it together. We have to be ok with progress, not playoffs next year. It’s not going to get instantly better, and if it seems to it may be a flash and revert a bit. But let the guy play it out to get his system and guys in place because each cycle change restarts that clock.
Sign both, tell them they're fighting for the starting job. Trade Jones, get a pick. We've improved the QB depth chart, saved a little cap space, and gotten a pick.
Bringing Jones back only makes sense of you're considering keeping him beyond 2022, and no incoming GM is going to want to do that unless we rehire Gettleman.
trading Jones will only save 4 mil. The other 4 is signing bonus we that would be accelerated in a trade. But I doubt that changes your calculus much.
Have to admit, you do make a decent point here.