article on Giants Nepotism.
Talking about being hired with Giants years ago, his dream job. Mara and Tisch families are good people.
Last 6 years have been crappy- all deserve blame.
Talking about Chris Mara and Tim McConnell. Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization. Says Chris Mara isn't GM only because of his name! They don't want their family being viewed that way.
Weis hired Tim MCConnell who Weis said he was one of the most valuable guys at the University (ND) and was kept on after Weis left. Mara's have a rule you can't start working with Giants you must go elsewhere first.
Papa and Weis (BBI was just mentioned specifically by Papa) and Papa is sick of arguing with people about Chris Mara. The league has offered him jobs elsewhere but doesn't because he is an owner of this team. Weis again talks about how Chris Mara is one of the BEST there is but fans think they know more than they do.
You can't run an organization and expect to be successful when some people are held accountable and others are not.
It's not going to work.
Leaving the NFL Draft to go to the Kentucky Derby means that (1) being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel for the Giants is not a full time job for him; and (2) being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel is not a priority for him.
If being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel for the Giants was his full time job, he would have been in the war room for the full draft. If being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel was a priority, he wouldn't have chosen the Kentucky Derby over the draft.
If being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel is not his full time job and is not a priority for him, then he shouldn't do it at all, IMO.
Give the job to someone will give it his or her full time and focus/energy.
but what do i know
Tell me why Chris Petit gets to stay on as director of college scouting again? Tell me what any of those pro personnel guys have done again that is worth keeping them for?
If the new GM comes in and wipes everyone out - I'm a believer...if that upper crust of management stays with direct ties to the owner...it ain't gonna work.
Even Hanlon admitted that scout steve V was doing a terrible job for years but allowed to keep his job
but what do i know
I don't think it's scapegoating as much as pointing to his SVP title in the Personnel department and wondering how much influence he has there? Team personnel has SUCKED for the better part of a decade, yet he's still there. We don't know how much influence he has over picks, trades or FA's, but THAT is the problem.
How can you have an owner whose job title reports to the GM when the GM reports to the owners? Doesn't that sound a little odd? Maybe a conflict of interest?
I just don't understand how people can think it impossible that those who report to Chris Mara and the GM might have more loyalty to Mara. If the GM and Mara agree, it's not a problem, but if they don't?
And yes, there are other teams with owners who have direct say in personnel matters, but guess what? Everyone knows that and knows who to hold responsible. If Jerry Jones and his son fuck up a draft, are fans going to be mad at Will McClay? No, they will take it out on the Jones's. That isn't the case here.
So a guy who is qualified to be a GM, is SVP of Player Personnel, is sitting in on GM interviews (I assume based on his qualifcations), but has no input on the actual decision?
I know he's an owner but he can never be truly evalauted at his position because he has no metrics to live up to. It's like the Bob's from Office Space, "What exactly would you say you do here?"
The other option is that Chris is so qualified, HE should be invovled in the decision making on GM but John and Steve are too stubborn to let him.
The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past
but what do i know
Do you know who the heads of college scouting and pro scouting are and to whom they report?
In most organizations those departments report to someone along the lines of the Senior VP of Player Personnel.
Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?
So exactly what the Tisch family tried to avoid is exactly what has happened. There is a Mara filling arguably the 2nd most important position in the Front Office with a Mara reporting to him and the team is 61-100 in 10 years since Chris Mara became SRVP Player Personnel. Plus in almost every other NFL front office player personnel reports to the GM. How does that work for the Giants?
Now the Giants are hiring their 3rd GM and 6th coach in those 10 years and people are starting to wonder why no matter who they hire no matter how many times they turn over the roster the results get even worse. Well who are the constants in positions of power and influence in the past 10 years through all the GM and coaching and roster changes?
I can think of three, John and Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams. Anyone else?
I don't expect changes with family members so no point belaboring it but they do need an overhaul around those people. Probably need to make some hard decisions on employees they like and care for on a personal level if they actually are committed to fixing this.
You're damned right I would, it's multiple lottery tickets.
"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"
What do you think John says?
Hopefully, Mara has begun to move towards the latter but it's going to be damned difficult to move out the family members. That's probably barking up the wrong tree.
"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"
What do you think John says?
"you can hire him but chris stays"
Quote:
to John, after being told he has full authority over the entire football operations:
"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"
What do you think John says?
"you can hire him but chris stays"
yep
Quote:
to John, after being told he has full authority over the entire football operations:
"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"
What do you think John says?
"you can hire him but chris stays"
And if the GM wants Chris's title, too, do you think John acquiesces on that?
Directors or Player Personnel
we're bringing them in because they excel at their jobs of DPP.
its absolutely an important role and since Mara has taken the position we've sucked. we've sucked drafting and we've sucked in FA.
not for nothing, but before him we had DG and he did a great job, in fact it earned him a GM job in Carolina.
So exactly what the Tisch family tried to avoid is exactly what has happened. There is a Mara filling arguably the 2nd most important position in the Front Office with a Mara reporting to him and the team is 61-100 in 10 years since Chris Mara became SRVP Player Personnel. Plus in almost every other NFL front office player personnel reports to the GM. How does that work for the Giants?
Now the Giants are hiring their 3rd GM and 6th coach in those 10 years and people are starting to wonder why no matter who they hire no matter how many times they turn over the roster the results get even worse. Well who are the constants in positions of power and influence in the past 10 years through all the GM and coaching and roster changes?
I can think of three, John and Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams. Anyone else?
Directors or Player Personnel
we're bringing them in because they excel at their jobs of DPP.
its absolutely an important role and since Mara has taken the position we've sucked. we've sucked drafting and we've sucked in FA.
not for nothing, but before him we had DG and he did a great job, in fact it earned him a GM job in Carolina.
Exactly. He is the #2 person in Football Operations. The # 1 person in Player Personnel. And the defense of his performance is that "he doesn't actually do anything"
Either he sucks. Or the #2 person in Football Operations doesn't do anything. Neither of those is good.
I'm not directing this at you, but SVP of Player Personnel is a position of serious gravitas in the NFL. And if my new GM has a person who he really trusts to run that position, I hope he is allowed to make that hire with that title.
Otherwise, the "runs all of football operation" declaration was total false advertising.
but what do i know
Most aren’t scapegoating Chris Mara, just acknowledging that he’s part of the problem. Something his brother and the shills in the organization won’t do.
it could very well be that marc ross sucked (i think we all agree on that) and that DG was even worse (i think we all agree on that too)
it could very well be that marc ross sucked (i think we all agree on that) and that DG was even worse (i think we all agree on that too)
"These are not the droids you're looking for" he said with a wave of his hand.
Quote:
The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past
Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?
Tom Coughlin
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In comment 15551510 joeinpa said:
Quote:
The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past
Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?
Tom Coughlin
Jerry Reese 2 Super Bowls
Tom Coughlin
Jerry Reese 2 Super Bowls
Yup, of course.
Now, might it be fair to look at the org structure they walked into vs. the one in place now?
Jerry Reese took the helm of GM in 2004 with a clear mandate over college/pro personnel and roster management. There wasn’t a team owner co-mingled in his lane.
Coincidentally, when the co-owner did become co-mingled in his lane, the personnel results got bad fast.
Might it at least be worth considering this development was a factor. Might it at least be worth considering this factor still exists?
Therefore, we have to conclude John is making a horrible mistake not doing it.
Or do we?
Then why are we interviewing 9 other candidates?
Just give Chris Mara the job if is so good.
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Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization. Says Chris Mara isn't GM only because of his name! They don't want their family being viewed that way.
So a guy who is qualified to be a GM, is SVP of Player Personnel, is sitting in on GM interviews (I assume based on his qualifcations), but has no input on the actual decision?
I know he's an owner but he can never be truly evalauted at his position because he has no metrics to live up to. It's like the Bob's from Office Space, "What exactly would you say you do here?"
The other option is that Chris is so qualified, HE should be invovled in the decision making on GM but John and Steve are too stubborn to let him.
TC was about winning the lines and physical battle . It’s what he built in Jax. It’s what he learned from Parcells. 2008 was his vision. EA leaned on TC early. Snee, McKenzie, Jacobs, Plax are good examples. TC was Welly’s hire and EA knew it.
Probably a few hands in it and I have my opinions but around that 2009 some different ideas on team building emerged imv.
Good news is Mara said the GM is hiring the HC. Good first step. I do know the HC will be the far more important piece to the puzzle but being on the same page gives the franchise the best chance.
Quote:
Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?
Tom Coughlin
Jerry Reese 2 Super Bowls
Yup, of course.
Now, might it be fair to look at the org structure they walked into vs. the one in place now?
Jerry Reese took the helm of GM in 2004 with a clear mandate over college/pro personnel and roster management. There wasn’t a team owner co-mingled in his lane.
Coincidentally, when the co-owner did become co-mingled in his lane, the personnel results got bad fast.
Might it at least be worth considering this development was a factor. Might it at least be worth considering this factor still exists?
Yes, but I ll let others worry about that. Been a fan since 56, I think Giants have second most championships behind Green Bay, not sure, but they have few, all the time being owned by a Mara
But I m done with the Mara issue, it s boring and not why I m a fan. Hire the right guy, they will win again.
John Mara
Chris Mara
Dave Gettleman
Chris Pettit
Joe Judge
Probably safe to assume Abrams is in there too.
The Giants are more or less run by a committee. We've seen that the competency level of the non-ownership seats has a big impact on results.
Hopefully they replace Gettleman and Judge with better people and strengthen the committee.
Yeah I got mixed up. That's the one with Gettleman rubbing his hands like a lunatic, right?
I think Parcells wanted to bring him to the Patriots.
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than he should be the GM. It's that simple.
Therefore, we have to conclude John is making a horrible mistake not doing it.
Or do we?
Do you not understand, whether he is, or he isn't, Tisches will not let him?
Yes, I understand. But I don't see Tisch in the War Room, either. Or hear that he's in the building to witness the day-to-day operations. So, I think there is doubt he actually knows what Chris is doing other than what John shares. The SVP of Player Personnel is still a pretty damn big title.
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That video was the 2021 draft.
Yeah I got mixed up. That's the one with Gettleman rubbing his hands like a lunatic, right?
Yes. The best part is the very end was DG walks away obviously annoyed at something. And Judge looks at him and laughs. Like DG is the spoiled kid who didn't get his way...
But I m done with the Mara issue, it s boring and not why I m a fan. Hire the right guy, they will win again.
Fair enough. I hope your optimism is harbinger of great things to come.
Tell me why Chris Petit gets to stay on as director of college scouting again? Tell me what any of those pro personnel guys have done again that is worth keeping them for?
If the new GM comes in and wipes everyone out - I'm a believer...if that upper crust of management stays with direct ties to the owner...it ain't gonna work.
I agree. That will be a telltale sign of what's really going on.
If you think I am exaggerating please read this puff-piece from the time:
"Chris Mara helped guide the Giants through the late stages of the NFL draft on Saturday, then scrambled down to Louisville to watch his horse run in the Kentucky Derby—a rare double duty that would have made his father proud..." The Giants’ Chris Mara pulls NFL draft and Kentucky Derby double duty - Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )
Ugh… that article is downright depressing— that is a ton of involvement — to the point of every player gets CM’s personal grade written on them. I bet you not everyone in scouting gets to do that. It’s brutal how cavalier he appears in the article about the late rounds — no wonder our late picks are so poor. It’s the attitude of someone who’s job isn’t on the line. Worse, his claim to fame, finding Bradshaw, was just dumb luck that Kate was doing a movie— you can’t make this up.
And good or bad, he can never be held accountable— which has always been the issue. It’s not the nepotism per se, it’s the inability to fix a problem if it exists because of family ties and asymmetrical power relative to the position.
Personnel is critical, the Giants have sucked there, and smack dab in the middle is an owner. I would almost rather him be the GM because then everyone would know what he’s doing and he would have to at least face public accountability. Right now he always has this murky plausible deniability for whatever takes place.
Papa really gets his panties in a bunch every single time I’ve heard him bitch about BBI