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Sirius now- Weis is PISSED about the Schwartz(BBI Mentioned)

jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:13 am
article on Giants Nepotism.

Talking about being hired with Giants years ago, his dream job. Mara and Tisch families are good people.

Last 6 years have been crappy- all deserve blame.

Talking about Chris Mara and Tim McConnell. Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization. Says Chris Mara isn't GM only because of his name! They don't want their family being viewed that way.

Weis hired Tim MCConnell who Weis said he was one of the most valuable guys at the University (ND) and was kept on after Weis left. Mara's have a rule you can't start working with Giants you must go elsewhere first.

Papa and Weis (BBI was just mentioned specifically by Papa) and Papa is sick of arguing with people about Chris Mara. The league has offered him jobs elsewhere but doesn't because he is an owner of this team. Weis again talks about how Chris Mara is one of the BEST there is but fans think they know more than they do.
This should go well  
UConn4523 : 1/13/2022 10:15 am : link
let todays conspiracies commence.
So  
madeinstars : 1/13/2022 10:17 am : link
Last 6 years (make that 10) have been a disaster and everyone deserves blame...

...apart from Mara and McDonell who are the smartest and best men he's ever known.

Makes sense.
They have to keep  
shocktheworld : 1/13/2022 10:17 am : link
The company narrative going!!! Blah!!
I have to admit I am a tad  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:17 am : link
in line with them. The focus here lately about TITLES and demanding this or that happen, is just beyond stupid. The Giants made mistakes there is no doubt about it but truth be told we ended up being victims of our unlikely successes of 07 and 11 and then some bad breaks:

Nailed OBJ pick for a few years but it died quickly.
Held on to Eli too LONG out of a sense of loyalty- that many fans here are victims of too.
Drafted Barkley when we should not have done that and then made it worse by having DG continue to run a team as if it were the 1980's.

I am listening as well.  
johnnyb : 1/13/2022 10:18 am : link
Charlie is not afraid to lay down criticism if it is deserved. In this case, he is defending the contributions of Chris Mara and Tom McDonnell. Remember, Charlei hired Tim at ND and is singing his praises- "the most valuable guy at Notre Dame".
RE: So  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:18 am : link
In comment 15550878 madeinstars said:
Quote:
Last 6 years (make that 10) have been a disaster and everyone deserves blame...

...apart from Mara and McDonell who are the smartest and best men he's ever known.

Makes sense.


That is not what he said or what I wrote but, feel free to read into that.
Welp  
JB_in_DC : 1/13/2022 10:19 am : link
I certainly hope he's right.
I've said this before  
JonC : 1/13/2022 10:20 am : link
we simply don't know how involved Chris Mara is in terms of the decline in talent ... we know the talent acquisition fell off a cliff around the same time he was elevated to this position, and that alone smells rotten. But, I don't expect him to step down or move aside so I don't spend the energy to beat it to death.
RE: RE: So  
madeinstars : 1/13/2022 10:20 am : link
In comment 15550887 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15550878 madeinstars said:


Quote:


Last 6 years (make that 10) have been a disaster and everyone deserves blame...

...apart from Mara and McDonell who are the smartest and best men he's ever known.

Makes sense.



That is not what he said or what I wrote but, feel free to read into that.


"Last 6 years have been crappy- all deserve blame"

"Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization"

That is literally what you wrote?
The biggest thing I have issues with  
bigblue5611 : 1/13/2022 10:21 am : link
Is that the roster collectively started going to shit when Chris was promoted to his current title (2011). So if he knows his shit, is such a good evaluator, etc., then why has this roster sucked balls ever since he got that title?
if these guys are such superstars  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 10:21 am : link
why do we suck so bad? Its hard to suck this bad in the NFL

In all honesty and without sarcasm, I'd be happy to give either the GM spot. It would at least show that they have a set of balls, maybe that will translate onto the field.

And by the way, did papa leak that he posts here? Hi Bob!
Mara made pretty clear  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/13/2022 10:23 am : link
that Chris Mara and Tim McDonald contribute information and opinions to the decision-making process, but that the GM and the HC make the final decisions. This place has become filled with myths based on limited to no information. A couple of these guys are being maligned without any specific facts other than the overall failures of the organiztion.
RE: I am listening as well.  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:23 am : link
In comment 15550884 johnnyb said:
Quote:
Charlie is not afraid to lay down criticism if it is deserved. In this case, he is defending the contributions of Chris Mara and Tom McDonnell. Remember, Charlei hired Tim at ND and is singing his praises- "the most valuable guy at Notre Dame".


Agreed and he did say his issue was the article painting this situation as a nepotism issue. Many here make the same mistakes the Giants have made- but from a fandom perspective.

Charlie said everyone deserves blame for what has happened over the last 6 years but to blame Mara like he doesn't belong and has a job because of name only was Weis's biggest issue.
I heard this, too...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 10:25 am : link
The way Weis was waxing poetic about Chris, you would think he was the second coming of Bill Polian. And that we should be ecstatic to have him.

So, I'm glad that's cleared up...
RE: RE: RE: So  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:25 am : link
In comment 15550891 madeinstars said:
Quote:
In comment 15550887 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15550878 madeinstars said:


Quote:


Last 6 years (make that 10) have been a disaster and everyone deserves blame...

...apart from Mara and McDonell who are the smartest and best men he's ever known.

Makes sense.



That is not what he said or what I wrote but, feel free to read into that.



"Last 6 years have been crappy- all deserve blame"

"Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization"

That is literally what you wrote?



Again, where does that say they are above blame? The point was people argue they have jobs because of family only. Leonard Williams was the best Dlinemen we had this year, was he above any blame for what happened? No but still is the best player we had on the Dline.
Chris Bisignano-no Giants shill-  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/13/2022 10:26 am : link
said the nephew is actually pretty respected so take that for what it's worth.
RE: Mara made pretty clear  
JonC : 1/13/2022 10:26 am : link
In comment 15550899 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
that Chris Mara and Tim McDonald contribute information and opinions to the decision-making process, but that the GM and the HC make the final decisions. This place has become filled with myths based on limited to no information. A couple of these guys are being maligned without any specific facts other than the overall failures of the organiztion.


That doesn't entirely exonerate Chris, as he's actively contributing evaluations of players, presumably many are being drafted by the decision makers (or missed) due to his/their scouting work.
easy fix  
DCPollaro : 1/13/2022 10:27 am : link
John Mara CEO
Chris Mara - Head of Football Operations
let Chris hire a GM and ensure the GM and HC work well together
If they want it to be believable  
ghost718 : 1/13/2022 10:28 am : link
Might want to take it down a notch,you're going to sit here and tell me he's one of the best there is.Not competent,effective,or anything along those lines.

He's one of best,you dummies just don't get it.Yeah alright,have another doughnut Charlie.
Sure there is enough failure over the last 6 years  
OlyWABigBlue : 1/13/2022 10:29 am : link
so that everyone gets a serving of blame - if blaming is your objective.

I'm sure the Maras and their progeny want the Giants to win and are doing their best. Even though there have been multiple reports that it is a meritocracy and it has nothing to do with ancestry, all of the supporting arguments to dispel nepotism or undue influence are tautological. I doubt we'll ever see or be privy to real systemic review. Even the best intentions can be negated by bad process or execution.
The odd thing about the many years  
NoGainDayne : 1/13/2022 10:29 am : link
of Giants defensiveness around the competence of their people. The results are neon signs to the contrary.

Oh yeah totally I believe that someone who has overseen one of the worst teams in football over the last 10 years is getting tons of calls to work for a different team than the team he is part owner of. I wonder if people even try to say it like this before they spout of their bullshit or they just assume we are idiots.
If Chris is so good...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 10:29 am : link
than he should be the GM. It's that simple.

Therefore, we have to conclude John is making a horrible mistake not doing it.

Or do we?



Wow, Marvin Lewis just said he wants to Coach  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 10:30 am : link
and sort of jokingly, not jokingly even mentioned GMEN. Papa asked him if he wanted to be GM as we need a GM first.

He currently is doing work with Herm Edwards (mentioned he was with Antonio PIerce- helping coaches with coaching advice and skills to become HC's). Specifically mentioning Pierce as a HC down the road, how much he has followed Pierce's career.
Chris Mara worked for the Giants his first fourteen years  
shyster : 1/13/2022 10:30 am : link
out of college,which contradicts Weis's assertion of a supposed family rule that Maras have to work elsewhere first.

And Weis says Chris has been offered other NFL jobs but doesn't take them because he is an owner of the Giants.

Other teams don't know this?

McDonnell also won't be able to work for any other NFL team. So he isn't going anywhere.

RE: RE: Mara made pretty clear  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/13/2022 10:30 am : link
In comment 15550911 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15550899 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


that Chris Mara and Tim McDonald contribute information and opinions to the decision-making process, but that the GM and the HC make the final decisions. This place has become filled with myths based on limited to no information. A couple of these guys are being maligned without any specific facts other than the overall failures of the organiztion.



That doesn't entirely exonerate Chris, as he's actively contributing evaluations of players, presumably many are being drafted by the decision makers (or missed) due to his/their scouting work.

We have no idea whether his advice is followed or not. This place has made him evil based on projection, not facts.
Hmm  
Scooter185 : 1/13/2022 10:30 am : link
Another Twitter talking point now being broadcast on air. Does Weis also like mustangs per chance?
he is right about the fact  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 10:31 am : link
that both Chris and Tim have put in the work over the years, I will give them credit for that.

Lets all hope Tim is the boy wonder he is portrayed as.
bw in DC.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/13/2022 10:31 am : link
I think Chris probably would be GM if his last name was Smith, not Mara. Then again...he probably isn't where he is now without his last name.
This is not an issue for me.  
Giant John : 1/13/2022 10:32 am : link
My focus is on the new GM. After that new coach and his staff.
Weiss says they're great  
j_rud : 1/13/2022 10:34 am : link
but the quality of the roster plummeted post 2011. But John says Chris really isn't all that involved. Which would be dumb if he's really as good as Weiss says.

Makes sense to me.
RE: I've said this before  
Mike from Ohio : 1/13/2022 10:35 am : link
In comment 15550889 JonC said:
Quote:
we simply don't know how involved Chris Mara is in terms of the decline in talent ... we know the talent acquisition fell off a cliff around the same time he was elevated to this position, and that alone smells rotten. But, I don't expect him to step down or move aside so I don't spend the energy to beat it to death.


And I don't think anyone else is really beating it to death either. Almost all the posts about Chris Mara yesterday were in the vain of "Stop obsessing about Chris Mara!!!"

People need a villain. For some here it is Chris Mara. For the rest, the villain is anyone saying Chris Mara's name.
Did someone say Schwartz?  
lawguy9801 : 1/13/2022 10:36 am : link
Well, we do have Chris to thank for Bobby Hart  
bigblue5611 : 1/13/2022 10:38 am : link
while he's mainly concentrating on watching his horse at the derby...

Quote:
Mara remains in touch with the war room through his nephew, Tim McDonnell, a pro scout for the Giants. Cell service is spotty amidst the sea of 170,000 fans at the Derby—more than double the turnout for a home game at MetLife Stadium—so texting is best. A little after 5 p.m., McDonnell texts Mara five names the Giants are talking about for their seventh-round pick. Mara sends back the three he likes best.

5:25 p.m., the Giants draft Bobby Hart, offensive lineman from Florida State, with the No. 226 overall pick
Hart was on Mara’s short list here. He’d been discussed a few weeks ago, in pre-draft meetings, as someone who might be there for the taking in the seventh round.

“Once the draft is over, the hardest guys to sign are those big-bodied guys,” Mara says. “They go quickly, because everybody needs them. One of our shortcomings is the offensive line, so we focused on a guy who played at a major level of competition at FSU, a big offensive lineman who can come in and maybe make the team.”


Given Hart was on the three names he sent back to Tim, it seems to me at least that Chris has a little more sway with who gets drafted than what's being said/reported.
Chris loves the ponies - ( New Window )
I should have added  
bigblue5611 : 1/13/2022 10:39 am : link
that I know that was only a 7th round pick, but I would have to think he has a big voice in who gets drafted in the other rounds as well...
What’s disappointing  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/13/2022 10:40 am : link
Is that we’ve been absolute crap for a decade. A laughingstock the last 4 years. Everything is on the table EXCEPT Chris & Tim. Seems like if it was a real top to bottom reset, they’d at least be in review.
RE: bw in DC.  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 10:41 am : link
In comment 15550924 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think Chris probably would be GM if his last name was Smith, not Mara. Then again...he probably isn't where he is now without his last name.


Again, if Chris is as good as Weis and Papa say - and that there is this big market for him, but the ownership piece gets in the way - than his brother is making a huge mistake keeping such a talented evaluator out of the GM chair.

So, I'd be okay with Chris as the GM to prove once and for all if Chris is really this good.
If they're the best in the department,  
Bill in UT : 1/13/2022 10:42 am : link
we need to fire everyone, including them, cause the dept sucks.
Only been defending Chris Mara indirectly because posters here  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 10:43 am : link
were giving Gettleman too much of a "pass" on all the ridiculous personnel decisions over the years.

I guess it's coming into light now that maybe the true rising stars in the organization are Chris (and Tim) afterall. And that everybody else is holding them back.

Not for nothing, that would be classic!

Love the offseason...


RE: RE: RE: So  
clatterbuck : 1/13/2022 10:45 am : link
In comment 15550891 madeinstars said:
Quote:
In comment 15550887 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15550878 madeinstars said:


Quote:


Last 6 years (make that 10) have been a disaster and everyone deserves blame...

...apart from Mara and McDonell who are the smartest and best men he's ever known.

Makes sense.



That is not what he said or what I wrote but, feel free to read into that.



"Last 6 years have been crappy- all deserve blame"

"Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization"

That is literally what you wrote?


Yes. But he didn't write, "smartest and best men he's ever known."
RE: RE: bw in DC.  
weeg in the bronx : 1/13/2022 10:46 am : link
In comment 15550950 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15550924 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I think Chris probably would be GM if his last name was Smith, not Mara. Then again...he probably isn't where he is now without his last name.



Again, if Chris is as good as Weis and Papa say - and that there is this big market for him, but the ownership piece gets in the way - than his brother is making a huge mistake keeping such a talented evaluator out of the GM chair.

So, I'd be okay with Chris as the GM to prove once and for all if Chris is really this good.


Its been stated by several talking heads that Tisch has vetoed this move.
Is it a coincidence that our drafted players....  
MOOPS : 1/13/2022 10:47 am : link
break down about as often as thoroughbred race horses and they have careers similar in length?
Yes  
jeff57 : 1/13/2022 10:49 am : link
He knows a lot. Just look at the Giants record.
RE: RE: RE: bw in DC.  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 10:49 am : link
In comment 15550965 weeg in the bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 15550950 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15550924 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


I think Chris probably would be GM if his last name was Smith, not Mara. Then again...he probably isn't where he is now without his last name.



Again, if Chris is as good as Weis and Papa say - and that there is this big market for him, but the ownership piece gets in the way - than his brother is making a huge mistake keeping such a talented evaluator out of the GM chair.

So, I'd be okay with Chris as the GM to prove once and for all if Chris is really this good.



Its been stated by several talking heads that Tisch has vetoed this move.


Maybe now Tisch understands the error in his ways and to not let external perception get in the way of a great football mind doing what he was born to do!
 
christian : 1/13/2022 10:50 am : link
This is great information from Bob and Charlie.

Sounds like the Giants either have an untapped resource or he was stymied by Gettleman’s bad decisions.

Seems like a major bummer the Giants had this ace in the hole, and have suffered through a decade of questionable amateur and pro personnel decisions.
I don't see Chris as a bogeyman... but the title is absurd  
regulator : 1/13/2022 10:52 am : link
VP of Player Personnel is a meaningful title. The dichotomy doesn't make sense. If he's such a skilled evaluator, and in high demand around the league, why doesn't he have more of a hand in our personnel decisions, given that they've been so bad? Conversely, has our VP of Player Personnel stood idly by, with his tremendous, well-regarded skills, while our GM and HC (since they make all decisions) burn down the organization?

To me, it's silly to see the great lengths John and Giants media go to defend Chris Mara and try to turn down the gas on the nepotism flame. To me, it's a ploy to divert attention away from the fact that he is in an accountability-free position in the football operation, which is otherwise a job with the ultimate measure of accountability (W:L).

Bottom line... we've sucked for a long time, everyone in that operation has a hand in it.
here's my take  
GiantsFan84 : 1/13/2022 10:52 am : link
1 - nobody is going to go to john mara and say "john your brother and nephew suck at their jobs". it's not happening. they may say that behind his back, but nobody is saying that to their face.

2 - if they are so good at their jobs, why does this teams drafting and free agent signings SUCK over the last 10 years?

3 - if they are so good at their jobs and well respected, why do they have no authority at all?

4 - when you hire family and give them real titles, these concerns are going to be raised. if you don't like it, don't put yourself in this position

5 - chris mara would NOT be hired by another team to be a GM. i mean why would he if all he does is do scouting reports and upload them into a system.....


Chris Mara  
WillVAB : 1/13/2022 10:52 am : link
The drafts and personnel decisions turned to hot garbage the day he assumed an executive role with the Giants. So either his evaluations suck (likely), or no one is listening to him. There’s really no positive way to spin this despite the repeated attempts to do so.
The Weis Years  
Costy16 : 1/13/2022 10:53 am : link
At Notre Dame were about as unforgettable a tenure as what the Giants have gone through the last 9-10 years.
The fact that 2 people up the chain  
Section331 : 1/13/2022 10:54 am : link
of the personnel dept can't be fired or moved despite a decade of utter incompetence is a problem. I'm sorry if Charlie Weis can't see that. It has nothing to do with how nice they are, or even if they are good at their jobs. It's about accountability.

TC was a good man who knew more football thank all of the Mara's combined, yet he got fired. That is what happens when you have losing seasons. Except if you're an owner cosplaying as a GM.
I used to respect Papa...  
Optimus-NY : 1/13/2022 10:56 am : link
RE: RE: RE: bw in DC.  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 10:56 am : link
In comment 15550965 weeg in the bronx said:
Quote:
In comment 15550950 bw in dc said:



Again, if Chris is as good as Weis and Papa say - and that there is this big market for him, but the ownership piece gets in the way - than his brother is making a huge mistake keeping such a talented evaluator out of the GM chair.

So, I'd be okay with Chris as the GM to prove once and for all if Chris is really this good.



Its been stated by several talking heads that Tisch has vetoed this move.


I know, and I get it.

Look, when the ship has been slowly sinking for a decade, it's fair to ask who is doing what inside the organization and question their roles. The fact John, and his shills like Papa and Weiss, get so bent out of shape for asking reasonable questions is very strange to me.
Are we expected to believe this?  
rsjem1979 : 1/13/2022 10:58 am : link
Quote:
Papa and Weis (BBI was just mentioned specifically by Papa) and Papa is sick of arguing with people about Chris Mara. The league has offered him jobs elsewhere but doesn't because he is an owner of this team. Weis again talks about how Chris Mara is one of the BEST there is but fans think they know more than they do.


Other teams in the league want to hire a co-owner of Giants to help build their football team? Near as I can tell, the last time that was even mentioned was in 2008, when Arthur Blank interviewed Mara for the Atlanta Falcons job based on the recommendation of, you guessed it, Ernie Accorsi.

Presumably, this was a favor by Accorsi after he chose Jerry Reese as his successor with the Giants.

Was he ever a legitimate candidate? Who can say, because he pulled his name from consideration early in the process.
RE: Chris Mara  
Del Shofner : 1/13/2022 10:59 am : link
In comment 15550989 WillVAB said:
Quote:
The drafts and personnel decisions turned to hot garbage the day he assumed an executive role with the Giants. So either his evaluations suck (likely), or no one is listening to him. There’s really no positive way to spin this despite the repeated attempts to do so.


That's how I see it too. Whichever it is, there's really no positive way to spin it. We're stuck with his semi-involvement (horses being more important to him) and can only hope that the Giants hire a strong GM that everyone allows to do his thing.
RE: RE: RE: Mara made pretty clear  
JonC : 1/13/2022 10:59 am : link
In comment 15550921 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
In comment 15550911 JonC said:


Quote:


In comment 15550899 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


that Chris Mara and Tim McDonald contribute information and opinions to the decision-making process, but that the GM and the HC make the final decisions. This place has become filled with myths based on limited to no information. A couple of these guys are being maligned without any specific facts other than the overall failures of the organiztion.



That doesn't entirely exonerate Chris, as he's actively contributing evaluations of players, presumably many are being drafted by the decision makers (or missed) due to his/their scouting work.


We have no idea whether his advice is followed or not. This place has made him evil based on projection, not facts.


Your first point is not compelling, and we do not entirely disagree on the second. I don't find it wise to gloss over his impact given the talent acquisition has been awful since he was elevated. Ross was elevated afterwards and has since left, but still the talent they're assembling is poor. Responsibility should begin with Chris Mara ...
Weis can  
LoveFootball : 1/13/2022 10:59 am : link
go fuck himself.
So Chris and Tim  
Jerry in_DC : 1/13/2022 10:59 am : link
are really awesome at player evaluation and strategic decision making, but nobody listens to them (even though they own the team)?

Is that the takeaway? Because that totally makes sense.

Also Chris doesn't really do anything. But he's great at his job and everybody totally respects him. But he chooses to keep a low profile because....but he totally could be an awesome GM that would restore the Giants to competence...but again, he doesn't have any power or authority despite being in charge of player personnel....
regulator  
JonC : 1/13/2022 11:01 am : link
nice post.
You can't be the Giants and snicker at the Dallas Cowboys  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 11:05 am : link
and then do the same thing by making an owner the GM.
 
christian : 1/13/2022 11:05 am : link
Who the fuck do the scouts report to?

That’s the only thing that matters.

Do they report to the SVP of player personnel?
It was actually a good listen  
NY-Fan : 1/13/2022 11:08 am : link
He was pissed. You could tell Papa was tired of trying to convince Giants fans that those two are not the main problem. You could tell they both felt strongly that they both actually were solid parts of the Giants.

Just because the Giants have been bad does not mean that they are the biggest problem. Sure it can be perceived that way but there are a lot of things that are contributing to the Giants issues. I’m kind of with them on this. I truly can’t say that they are good or bad at there jobs. They could suck or be actually pretty good. The thing is it is easy to point fingers at them based upon the titles they hold and their connections to the organization.

To be honest I’m kind of tired of all the negativity and am ready to have a positive outlook on this team going forward. Sure it has been crap lately but it doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. Let’s go Giants!
Wait  
give66 : 1/13/2022 11:12 am : link
Other teams want a part-owner of the Giants to work in their front office? That is just a crazy lie right there. Cue the clown music.
RE: It was actually a good listen  
Section331 : 1/13/2022 11:13 am : link
In comment 15551041 NY-Fan said:
Quote:
He was pissed. You could tell Papa was tired of trying to convince Giants fans that those two are not the main problem. You could tell they both felt strongly that they both actually were solid parts of the Giants.


Papa playing with strawmen again. No one is saying that Chris Mara, and his nephew are the MAIN problem, but that heir titles are PART of the problem.

They.

Are.

Unfireable.

THAT is a problem.
They aren't going anywhere.  
dannyman3131 : 1/13/2022 11:16 am : link
But, the talent on the field is the worst in the league. The SVP of player personnel should have to answer to that failure. 4 coaches and 2 GM's have during his tenure. Those are just facts and the only reason they haven't been replaced is they are family/owners.
They are back talking Giants  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 11:17 am : link
again, playing clips of Mara the other day.

Papa- believes the Coach and GM going is the right move. Weis agrees as well, clean slate.

Weis- this is the third time (third times the charm, right).. Mara has to take his lumps, you are the main guy here. You stand up there and take the lumps- wanted to be patient but couldn't.

Papa- interesting how this unfolds, must be diligent and make smart choice BUT, you don't have the luxury of months. Lots of guys interviewing elsewhere and need to make a decision soon.

Weis believes they will have a GM next week.

Plenty of good HC'ing candidates out there. Weis talking about how the hiring last time went quickly, looking was a bit but interview to hire of Judge was fast.

Weis believes as long as there are no character issues with HC recommendation from new GM, he should get hired.

Papa- with putting staff together the two Coordinators are huge OC and DC but the next biggest one is the Oline coach. Papa feels he is almost as important as the OC. Need a really good Oline coach and it is an art. The established ones have their own ways but they are so very important.

Strength Coach just as important with the needs of the team for such a long season and less hitting. QB coach also a huge need, someone to keep working with the QB. Weis points out he used to do it and then McDaniels after him. Gotta have that guy in the QB's ear after each series even if it isn't just X's and O's.. Don't let your QB dwell or mope after a series.

Papa- very important decisions coming here. Need to develop staffs that can withstand losses and be ready to have coaches who can move up when you lose a coach.

Good Lord  
mittenedman : 1/13/2022 11:18 am : link
am I tired of hearing how awesome everyone is.

These guys have run this organization into the ground. Including both Maras and McDonnell, all 3 rightfully having a say in what goes on.

Spare me with the "best in the business/we don't know" crap.
Add another member to the seemingly  
Dnew15 : 1/13/2022 11:19 am : link
un-ending number of people that are in the Mara Kabal.

Good for him - he's done a hell of job in gathering key people.
The Mara and Tisch families are good people?  
arniefez : 1/13/2022 11:21 am : link
Has anyone on BBI ever said they weren't? What I've said which is fact is that they own an inherited business and are running it horribly. I would think the Mara family are wonderful to the people in their circle. Look at all of the long time employees. I don't know much about the philanthropy of the Mara family but I have no reason to believe they're bad people.

If any of the owners are slandered on BBI it's Steve Tisch because he's a movie producer but the Tisch family philanthropy is his families legacy and has never been mentioned here that I've seen. A lot of people who post here don't even know what Loews Corp is.

This is a football website. We are football fans. Specifically fans of the New York Giants. The only thing I'm concerned about or commenting about when it comes to the Mara and Tisch families is whether their football team is winning. IMO we are all well within our rights as customers, who watch their games, buy their gear, paid large sums of money to buy tickets, to hold the owners who provide the product accountable when the product is a laughing stock.

Charlie Weis owes his entire career and everything he has in life to the Mara family. I can't take anything he says about them as an objective opinion.

What were Tim McDonnell's qualifications to be hired at Notre Dame? Who did he replace? Or did Charlie create a job for him because his mother owns the Giants?

And if he's reading this F Bob Papa. Another guy who owes everything he has to the Mara family. I don't want to hear employees and ex employees tell me to how to consume my entertainment. I made my Giant bones in the upper deck of freezing cold Yankee Stadium when being a fan of the Giants was actually important to the Mara's wallets.

I read the article I linked today and thought it was brave to write it. I'm sure Baghdad PitBull Pat is all over Politi about now and the Giants are going to try to make his life covering them as difficult as they can from this day forward. At least he's a columnist so that might have given him a little more freedom than a beat.

I owe Eric a thanks and a big donation next year. There is no doubt in my mind that BBI has played a part, maybe just a small part, but a part, in bringing the real reason the Giants stink to the surface. Hopefully it helps. Regardless of what anyone else thinks about what I write I'm Giants for life.
Why John Mara’s latest claim about the Giants is hard to believe - ( New Window )
 
christian : 1/13/2022 11:24 am : link
I tend to trust John Mara on this.

He all but said Chris and Tim just advise on college players from time-to-time. The implication being they aren’t in leadership positions above the scouts or the personnel staff.

Not to be rude, but sounds like they have toy jobs where they watch tape for a hobby.

That’s fine. But the Giants do seem to have amateur and pro personnel problems.

Hopefully the new GM brings in people who do this work professionally.
There is a lot we don't know  
UberAlias : 1/13/2022 11:25 am : link
But don't expect anyone to admit it. Once people make up their mind, that's in.
VP of personell  
Thegratefulhead : 1/13/2022 11:25 am : link
The Giants had the least talented team in the NFL for most of the last decade.

That means Chris Mara sucks at his job.

Wtf could I be missing?
I still find it interesting and the biggest point I wanted to make  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 11:26 am : link
that on a National Show BBI - said as Big Blue Interactive was mentioned specifically. Most times broadcasters, regardless of their affiliations, tend to avoid give shout outs to sites not related to them. Papa mentioned BBI specifically.

For anyone to now say that BBI isn't known, followed and even used to gauge fans thoughts and feelings, is pretty obviously incorrect.

As I mentioned before Eric and I had Pat Hanlon on our show a few times and even had Jerry Reese on- set up by Hanlon.. They know BBI!
They are talking about Weddle coming out  
jvm52106 : 1/13/2022 11:31 am : link
of retirement for the Rams and Papa now saying reminds him of 2002 NY Giants- when Fassel made a decision to upgrade at long snapper for the playoffs and the Giants brought Trey Junkin out of retirement for the playoffs and boom horrible snaps.

Papa was sitting behind Junkin on the flight back. Papa didn't know Junkin at all but never felt worse for a player than him (who was sitting by himself)..

So a guy that rushed a pick of a UDFA-quality DB in the 5th round  
sb from NYT Forum : 1/13/2022 11:41 am : link
(Mykkele Thompson in 2015) so that he could get out of the war room in time to make the Kentucky Derby should be our GM?!?

If you think I am exaggerating please read this puff-piece from the time:

"Chris Mara helped guide the Giants through the late stages of the NFL draft on Saturday, then scrambled down to Louisville to watch his horse run in the Kentucky Derby—a rare double duty that would have made his father proud..."

The Giants’ Chris Mara pulls NFL draft and Kentucky Derby double duty - Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )
RE: There is a lot we don't know  
christian : 1/13/2022 11:47 am : link
In comment 15551101 UberAlias said:
Quote:
But don't expect anyone to admit it. Once people make up their mind, that's in.


Do you agree with Papa and Weiss that Chris Mara is an excellent personnel manager?
RE: Mara made pretty clear  
Simms11 : 1/13/2022 11:49 am : link
In comment 15550899 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
that Chris Mara and Tim McDonald contribute information and opinions to the decision-making process, but that the GM and the HC make the final decisions. This place has become filled with myths based on limited to no information. A couple of these guys are being maligned without any specific facts other than the overall failures of the organiztion.


Agree! Many seem to be blindly following misinformation and have pitchforks out for no apparent reason IMO. I still believe the Head Coach and GM made all final decisions with their input.
RE: …  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 11:51 am : link
In comment 15551098 christian said:
Quote:
I tend to trust John Mara on this.

He all but said Chris and Tim just advise on college players from time-to-time. The implication being they aren’t in leadership positions above the scouts or the personnel staff.

Not to be rude, but sounds like they have toy jobs where they watch tape for a hobby.

That’s fine. But the Giants do seem to have amateur and pro personnel problems.

Hopefully the new GM brings in people who do this work professionally.


christian - not sure hobby is the right word...more like their roles & workproduct may be superfluous and John Mara took the high road and not disparaging them.

I am aligned with rest of these sentiments though.
What Does Weis Know?  
Bernie : 1/13/2022 11:52 am : link
All of the know all it alls on this site, none of whom have ever worked in sports, let alone the NFL, say it's nepotism, so it MUST be. After all, since they say it, it must be true. I am truly amazed the number of comments people make as opinions but they view as fact. Unless you know, you don't know. That is true of EVERYTHING in life.
RE: What Does Weis Know?  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 11:56 am : link
In comment 15551230 Bernie said:
Quote:
All of the know all it alls on this site, none of whom have ever worked in sports, let alone the NFL, say it's nepotism, so it MUST be. After all, since they say it, it must be true. I am truly amazed the number of comments people make as opinions but they view as fact. Unless you know, you don't know. That is true of EVERYTHING in life.


Since none of us ever played or coached in the league, we should probably just shut down the entire site as we shouldn't be commenting on anything at all, or just limit it to chicken parm recipes and grill reccomendations
RE: So a guy that rushed a pick of a UDFA-quality DB in the 5th round  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 11:58 am : link
In comment 15551189 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
(Mykkele Thompson in 2015) so that he could get out of the war room in time to make the Kentucky Derby should be our GM?!?

If you think I am exaggerating please read this puff-piece from the time:

"Chris Mara helped guide the Giants through the late stages of the NFL draft on Saturday, then scrambled down to Louisville to watch his horse run in the Kentucky Derby—a rare double duty that would have made his father proud..." The Giants’ Chris Mara pulls NFL draft and Kentucky Derby double duty - Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )


after that article, you can see why Chris no longer does interviews.
RE: This should go well  
djm : 1/13/2022 11:59 am : link
In comment 15550873 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
let todays conspiracies commence.


It's not a conspiracy. People just want to see what they want to see and ignore the facts or evidence.

There's little to no proof that any of the Maras are meddling or overtly and overly influential. Or at least not any more meddling than any other ownership group in the NFL.

They have done an awful job finding the right GM and HC lately. Full stop. We know that. All this other talk of John Mara mimicking this under the bridge big, bad and evil troll that bellows dark and evil orders day after day is just that, talk.

They have failed to build a winner. It doesn't have to be this big bad conspiracy.
RE: The Mara and Tisch families are good people?  
rsjem1979 : 1/13/2022 11:59 am : link
In comment 15551089 arniefez said:
Quote:


And if he's reading this F Bob Papa. Another guy who owes everything he has to the Mara family. I don't want to hear employees and ex employees tell me to how to consume my entertainment.


All the Giants have are "lifers". Bob Papa started doing the pregame show for Giants radio broadcasts two years after he graduated college - in 1988. He's been there for his entire adult life, and is the central figure in every facet of their broadcasting empire. Radio play by play. Giants Chronicles. Coach's Show. Giants Access Blue.

It's perfectly reasonable to question his objectivity when his paychecks are signed by the Mara family.
Surprised he didn't  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/13/2022 12:14 pm : link
say he can fix Jones.
whats crazy is the Mara's  
Platos : 1/13/2022 12:19 pm : link
are killing the Giants Way by having Chris at DPP.

they can't hire him as GM so the pipeline is now broken.

it makes sense to just make him another position and promote either Mconnell if he's so respected or another person in the scouting team.
so  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/13/2022 12:20 pm : link
let me get this straight? The real problem with the Giants is that Chris Mara and Tim McConnell are not fully running the team?

Then why are we interviewing 9 other candidates?

Just give Chris Mara the job if is so good.
Regulator  
Chris in LA : 1/13/2022 12:27 pm : link
+1
RE: What Does Weis Know?  
christian : 1/13/2022 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15551230 Bernie said:
Quote:
All of the know all it alls on this site, none of whom have ever worked in sports, let alone the NFL, say it's nepotism, so it MUST be. After all, since they say it, it must be true. I am truly amazed the number of comments people make as opinions but they view as fact. Unless you know, you don't know. That is true of EVERYTHING in life.


Do you agree with Weiss that Chris Mara is a highly skilled, best-in-class personnel man?
RE: So Chris and Tim  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/13/2022 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15551016 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
are really awesome at player evaluation and strategic decision making, but nobody listens to them (even though they own the team)?

Is that the takeaway? Because that totally makes sense.

Also Chris doesn't really do anything. But he's great at his job and everybody totally respects him. But he chooses to keep a low profile because....but he totally could be an awesome GM that would restore the Giants to competence...but again, he doesn't have any power or authority despite being in charge of player personnel....


^^^ THIS ^^^
RE: RE: So a guy that rushed a pick of a UDFA-quality DB in the 5th round  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15551249 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 15551189 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


(Mykkele Thompson in 2015) so that he could get out of the war room in time to make the Kentucky Derby should be our GM?!?

If you think I am exaggerating please read this puff-piece from the time:

"Chris Mara helped guide the Giants through the late stages of the NFL draft on Saturday, then scrambled down to Louisville to watch his horse run in the Kentucky Derby—a rare double duty that would have made his father proud..." The Giants’ Chris Mara pulls NFL draft and Kentucky Derby double duty - Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )



after that article, you can see why Chris no longer does interviews.


ron - yep...
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/13/2022 12:32 pm : link
I'm sick of hearing about how smart and respected people in the Giants organization are.

How about getting someone effective?
RE: …  
uther99 : 1/13/2022 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15551098 christian said:
Quote:
I tend to trust John Mara on this.

He all but said Chris and Tim just advise on college players from time-to-time. The implication being they aren’t in leadership positions above the scouts or the personnel staff.

Not to be rude, but sounds like they have toy jobs where they watch tape for a hobby.

That’s fine. But the Giants do seem to have amateur and pro personnel problems.

Hopefully the new GM brings in people who do this work professionally.


So, wouldn't a real SVP of PP be a good idea? Unless Chris Mara is a duplicate of someone else. I can't tell through all the smoke screen
I’ve been told  
Go Giants : 1/13/2022 12:44 pm : link
That the Mara’s are not actually so great as people.
I don't really care if they're are nice or not...  
Dnew15 : 1/13/2022 1:15 pm : link
what I do care about is whether they are good at their jobs or not.

You can't run an organization and expect to be successful when some people are held accountable and others are not.

It's not going to work.
Chris Mara left the NFL Draft to go to the Kentucky Derby  
sb from NYT Forum : 1/13/2022 1:15 pm : link
...this is a fact.

Leaving the NFL Draft to go to the Kentucky Derby means that (1) being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel for the Giants is not a full time job for him; and (2) being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel is not a priority for him.

If being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel for the Giants was his full time job, he would have been in the war room for the full draft. If being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel was a priority, he wouldn't have chosen the Kentucky Derby over the draft.

If being Sr. Vice President of Player Personnel is not his full time job and is not a priority for him, then he shouldn't do it at all, IMO.

Give the job to someone will give it his or her full time and focus/energy.
have said multiple times  
hitdog42 : 1/13/2022 1:16 pm : link
people scapegoating chris mara are lost and just looking for something to point to and feel a bit better about or blame.

but what do i know
It's not just Chris Mara  
Dnew15 : 1/13/2022 1:23 pm : link
it's the whole inner circle of "untouchables" that continue to fail and yet continue to be employed.

Tell me why Chris Petit gets to stay on as director of college scouting again? Tell me what any of those pro personnel guys have done again that is worth keeping them for?

If the new GM comes in and wipes everyone out - I'm a believer...if that upper crust of management stays with direct ties to the owner...it ain't gonna work.
^^^this guy gets it  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 1:27 pm : link
Chris is just a symptom of the rot

Even Hanlon admitted that scout steve V was doing a terrible job for years but allowed to keep his job
RE: have said multiple times  
Section331 : 1/13/2022 1:29 pm : link
In comment 15551463 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
people scapegoating chris mara are lost and just looking for something to point to and feel a bit better about or blame.

but what do i know


I don't think it's scapegoating as much as pointing to his SVP title in the Personnel department and wondering how much influence he has there? Team personnel has SUCKED for the better part of a decade, yet he's still there. We don't know how much influence he has over picks, trades or FA's, but THAT is the problem.

How can you have an owner whose job title reports to the GM when the GM reports to the owners? Doesn't that sound a little odd? Maybe a conflict of interest?

I just don't understand how people can think it impossible that those who report to Chris Mara and the GM might have more loyalty to Mara. If the GM and Mara agree, it's not a problem, but if they don't?

And yes, there are other teams with owners who have direct say in personnel matters, but guess what? Everyone knows that and knows who to hold responsible. If Jerry Jones and his son fuck up a draft, are fans going to be mad at Will McClay? No, they will take it out on the Jones's. That isn't the case here.
Regardless of Chris' actual role, it's bad optics at best  
BH28 : 1/13/2022 1:30 pm : link
Quote:
Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization. Says Chris Mara isn't GM only because of his name! They don't want their family being viewed that way.


So a guy who is qualified to be a GM, is SVP of Player Personnel, is sitting in on GM interviews (I assume based on his qualifcations), but has no input on the actual decision?

I know he's an owner but he can never be truly evalauted at his position because he has no metrics to live up to. It's like the Bob's from Office Space, "What exactly would you say you do here?"

The other option is that Chris is so qualified, HE should be invovled in the decision making on GM but John and Steve are too stubborn to let him.
RE: Mara made pretty clear  
joeinpa : 1/13/2022 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15550899 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
that Chris Mara and Tim McDonald contribute information and opinions to the decision-making process, but that the GM and the HC make the final decisions. This place has become filled with myths based on limited to no information. A couple of these guys are being maligned without any specific facts other than the overall failures of the organiztion.


The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past
RE: have said multiple times  
christian : 1/13/2022 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15551463 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
people scapegoating chris mara are lost and just looking for something to point to and feel a bit better about or blame.

but what do i know


Do you know who the heads of college scouting and pro scouting are and to whom they report?

In most organizations those departments report to someone along the lines of the Senior VP of Player Personnel.
RE: RE: Mara made pretty clear  
christian : 1/13/2022 1:50 pm : link
In comment 15551510 joeinpa said:
Quote:
The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past


Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?
Chris Mara wanted to be GM when Reese was hired  
arniefez : 1/13/2022 1:50 pm : link
The Tisch family said we can't have someone named Mara in that position we can't fire if things go badly so they blocked it. After the 2011 Super Bowl Chris Mara was quietly "promoted" to his current title.

So exactly what the Tisch family tried to avoid is exactly what has happened. There is a Mara filling arguably the 2nd most important position in the Front Office with a Mara reporting to him and the team is 61-100 in 10 years since Chris Mara became SRVP Player Personnel. Plus in almost every other NFL front office player personnel reports to the GM. How does that work for the Giants?

Now the Giants are hiring their 3rd GM and 6th coach in those 10 years and people are starting to wonder why no matter who they hire no matter how many times they turn over the roster the results get even worse. Well who are the constants in positions of power and influence in the past 10 years through all the GM and coaching and roster changes?

I can think of three, John and Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams. Anyone else?
There needs to be extensive turnover  
AcesUp : 1/13/2022 2:00 pm : link
In the FO. They need new scouts, they need changes in the leadership positions, they need to beef up their analytics and they should probably take a hard look at medical. It's not just the GMs and coaches when you have been this bad for this long.

I don't expect changes with family members so no point belaboring it but they do need an overhaul around those people. Probably need to make some hard decisions on employees they like and care for on a personal level if they actually are committed to fixing this.
If I owned an NFL team  
JonC : 1/13/2022 2:15 pm : link
and knew I had guaranteed dollars pouring in every year from TV deals, ticket sales, merch, concessions, Internet revenue, you name it ... would I try and run the show myself?

You're damned right I would, it's multiple lottery tickets.
If the new GM comes in and says...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:16 pm : link
to John, after being told he has full authority over the entire football operations:

"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"

What do you think John says?

And if things began to go south on me  
JonC : 1/13/2022 2:17 pm : link
I'd start looking to hire people better equipped to at least help run the show with me, or begin to build an organization I believe could be transitioned to.

Hopefully, Mara has begun to move towards the latter but it's going to be damned difficult to move out the family members. That's probably barking up the wrong tree.
RE: If the new GM comes in and says...  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 2:17 pm : link
In comment 15551571 bw in dc said:
Quote:
to John, after being told he has full authority over the entire football operations:

"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"

What do you think John says?


"you can hire him but chris stays"
RE: RE: If the new GM comes in and says...  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15551574 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 15551571 bw in dc said:


Quote:


to John, after being told he has full authority over the entire football operations:

"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"

What do you think John says?




"you can hire him but chris stays"


yep
RE: RE: If the new GM comes in and says...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15551574 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 15551571 bw in dc said:


Quote:


to John, after being told he has full authority over the entire football operations:

"John, person X is an outstanding evaluator and someone I trust to run player personnel. I want him to run the side of the operation instead of Chris. Do I have your support?"

What do you think John says?




"you can hire him but chris stays"


And if the GM wants Chris's title, too, do you think John acquiesces on that?
I don’t know but I can’t see titles being a big issue  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 2:40 pm : link
Given that it’s clear that the Mara boys aren’t going anywhere, the issue going forward are the ones discussed in the PFT segment linked in that other thread and the stickiness of all the other guys that have been there 29 years not named Mara.
the way some of you defend Chris Mara is ridiculous  
Platos : 1/13/2022 2:44 pm : link
you say the role isn't important but look at the guys we're bringing in to RUN THE TEAM.

Directors or Player Personnel

we're bringing them in because they excel at their jobs of DPP.

its absolutely an important role and since Mara has taken the position we've sucked. we've sucked drafting and we've sucked in FA.

not for nothing, but before him we had DG and he did a great job, in fact it earned him a GM job in Carolina.
RE: Chris Mara wanted to be GM when Reese was hired  
Thegratefulhead : 1/13/2022 2:46 pm : link
In comment 15551527 arniefez said:
Quote:
The Tisch family said we can't have someone named Mara in that position we can't fire if things go badly so they blocked it. After the 2011 Super Bowl Chris Mara was quietly "promoted" to his current title.

So exactly what the Tisch family tried to avoid is exactly what has happened. There is a Mara filling arguably the 2nd most important position in the Front Office with a Mara reporting to him and the team is 61-100 in 10 years since Chris Mara became SRVP Player Personnel. Plus in almost every other NFL front office player personnel reports to the GM. How does that work for the Giants?

Now the Giants are hiring their 3rd GM and 6th coach in those 10 years and people are starting to wonder why no matter who they hire no matter how many times they turn over the roster the results get even worse. Well who are the constants in positions of power and influence in the past 10 years through all the GM and coaching and roster changes?

I can think of three, John and Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams. Anyone else?
occam's razor
RE: the way some of you defend Chris Mara is ridiculous  
Jerry in_DC : 1/13/2022 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15551624 Platos said:
Quote:
you say the role isn't important but look at the guys we're bringing in to RUN THE TEAM.

Directors or Player Personnel

we're bringing them in because they excel at their jobs of DPP.

its absolutely an important role and since Mara has taken the position we've sucked. we've sucked drafting and we've sucked in FA.

not for nothing, but before him we had DG and he did a great job, in fact it earned him a GM job in Carolina.


Exactly. He is the #2 person in Football Operations. The # 1 person in Player Personnel. And the defense of his performance is that "he doesn't actually do anything"

Either he sucks. Or the #2 person in Football Operations doesn't do anything. Neither of those is good.
RE: I don’t know but I can’t see titles being a big issue  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15551612 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Given that it’s clear that the Mara boys aren’t going anywhere, the issue going forward are the ones discussed in the PFT segment linked in that other thread and the stickiness of all the other guys that have been there 29 years not named Mara.


I'm not directing this at you, but SVP of Player Personnel is a position of serious gravitas in the NFL. And if my new GM has a person who he really trusts to run that position, I hope he is allowed to make that hire with that title.

Otherwise, the "runs all of football operation" declaration was total false advertising.
RE: have said multiple times  
WillVAB : 1/13/2022 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15551463 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
people scapegoating chris mara are lost and just looking for something to point to and feel a bit better about or blame.

but what do i know


Most aren’t scapegoating Chris Mara, just acknowledging that he’s part of the problem. Something his brother and the shills in the organization won’t do.
in hitdog i trust  
GiantsFan84 : 1/13/2022 3:28 pm : link
if he says chris mara isn't an issue i trust him. i don't think i've ever seen him post something factually untrue on this board as it relates to the giants

it could very well be that marc ross sucked (i think we all agree on that) and that DG was even worse (i think we all agree on that too)
RE: in hitdog i trust  
Dnew15 : 1/13/2022 3:42 pm : link
In comment 15551732 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
if he says chris mara isn't an issue i trust him. i don't think i've ever seen him post something factually untrue on this board as it relates to the giants

it could very well be that marc ross sucked (i think we all agree on that) and that DG was even worse (i think we all agree on that too)


"These are not the droids you're looking for" he said with a wave of his hand.
RE: RE: RE: Mara made pretty clear  
joeinpa : 1/13/2022 3:49 pm : link
In comment 15551525 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15551510 joeinpa said:


Quote:


The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past



Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?


Tom Coughlin
RE: RE: RE: RE: Mara made pretty clear  
joeinpa : 1/13/2022 3:49 pm : link
In comment 15551791 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15551525 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15551510 joeinpa said:


Quote:


The criticism was based on some fans believing they knew more than they did, I ve stopped paying attention. It s become obvious the Giants failure has been due to bad hires, that can be fixed, as it has been in the past



Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?



Tom Coughlin


Jerry Reese 2 Super Bowls
 
christian : 1/13/2022 4:36 pm : link
In comment 15551792 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?

Tom Coughlin

Jerry Reese 2 Super Bowls


Yup, of course.

Now, might it be fair to look at the org structure they walked into vs. the one in place now?

Jerry Reese took the helm of GM in 2004 with a clear mandate over college/pro personnel and roster management. There wasn’t a team owner co-mingled in his lane.

Coincidentally, when the co-owner did become co-mingled in his lane, the personnel results got bad fast.

Might it at least be worth considering this development was a factor. Might it at least be worth considering this factor still exists?
RE: If Chris is so good...  
Red Right Hand : 1/13/2022 5:38 pm : link
In comment 15550918 bw in dc said:
Quote:
than he should be the GM. It's that simple.

Therefore, we have to conclude John is making a horrible mistake not doing it.

Or do we?


Do you not understand, whether he is, or he isn't, Tisches will not let him?
RE: so  
Red Right Hand : 1/13/2022 5:40 pm : link
In comment 15551312 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
let me get this straight? The real problem with the Giants is that Chris Mara and Tim McConnell are not fully running the team?

Then why are we interviewing 9 other candidates?

Just give Chris Mara the job if is so good.
THE TISHES WON"T LET THEM.
RE: Regardless of Chris' actual role, it's bad optics at best  
Red Right Hand : 1/13/2022 5:44 pm : link
In comment 15551488 BH28 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Weis says those two are the two best people in that organization. Says Chris Mara isn't GM only because of his name! They don't want their family being viewed that way.



So a guy who is qualified to be a GM, is SVP of Player Personnel, is sitting in on GM interviews (I assume based on his qualifcations), but has no input on the actual decision?

I know he's an owner but he can never be truly evalauted at his position because he has no metrics to live up to. It's like the Bob's from Office Space, "What exactly would you say you do here?"

The other option is that Chris is so qualified, HE should be invovled in the decision making on GM but John and Steve are too stubborn to let him.
only steve...
2009 is where  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/13/2022 5:58 pm : link
The drafts started to deteriorate. The got worse and worse for years afterwards other than a few big hits. The bigger shift was the type and positional value.

TC was about winning the lines and physical battle . It’s what he built in Jax. It’s what he learned from Parcells. 2008 was his vision. EA leaned on TC early. Snee, McKenzie, Jacobs, Plax are good examples. TC was Welly’s hire and EA knew it.

Probably a few hands in it and I have my opinions but around that 2009 some different ideas on team building emerged imv.

Good news is Mara said the GM is hiring the HC. Good first step. I do know the HC will be the far more important piece to the puzzle but being on the same page gives the franchise the best chance.
RE: …  
joeinpa : 1/13/2022 6:01 pm : link
In comment 15551885 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15551792 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Can you give an example of when good hires fixed a failure in management with the Giants?

Tom Coughlin

Jerry Reese 2 Super Bowls



Yup, of course.

Now, might it be fair to look at the org structure they walked into vs. the one in place now?

Jerry Reese took the helm of GM in 2004 with a clear mandate over college/pro personnel and roster management. There wasn’t a team owner co-mingled in his lane.

Coincidentally, when the co-owner did become co-mingled in his lane, the personnel results got bad fast.

Might it at least be worth considering this development was a factor. Might it at least be worth considering this factor still exists?


Yes, but I ll let others worry about that. Been a fan since 56, I think Giants have second most championships behind Green Bay, not sure, but they have few, all the time being owned by a Mara

But I m done with the Mara issue, it s boring and not why I m a fan. Hire the right guy, they will win again.
Mike Lombardi on the GM Shuffle today  
Sean : 1/13/2022 6:19 pm : link
Said that Chris Mara is a very good talent evaluator and scout. Was surprised to hear.
I think that video of the 2019 draft room is informative  
Go Terps : 1/13/2022 6:37 pm : link
If memory serves the people in the room were:

John Mara
Chris Mara
Dave Gettleman
Chris Pettit
Joe Judge

Probably safe to assume Abrams is in there too.

The Giants are more or less run by a committee. We've seen that the competency level of the non-ownership seats has a big impact on results.

Hopefully they replace Gettleman and Judge with better people and strengthen the committee.
GT...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 6:39 pm : link
That video was the 2021 draft.
RE: GT...  
Go Terps : 1/13/2022 6:41 pm : link
In comment 15552021 bw in dc said:
Quote:
That video was the 2021 draft.


Yeah I got mixed up. That's the one with Gettleman rubbing his hands like a lunatic, right?
RE: Mike Lombardi on the GM Shuffle today  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/13/2022 6:42 pm : link
In comment 15551999 Sean said:
Quote:
Said that Chris Mara is a very good talent evaluator and scout. Was surprised to hear.


I think Parcells wanted to bring him to the Patriots.
RE: RE: If Chris is so good...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 6:45 pm : link
In comment 15551951 Red Right Hand said:
Quote:
In comment 15550918 bw in dc said:


Quote:


than he should be the GM. It's that simple.

Therefore, we have to conclude John is making a horrible mistake not doing it.

Or do we?




Do you not understand, whether he is, or he isn't, Tisches will not let him?


Yes, I understand. But I don't see Tisch in the War Room, either. Or hear that he's in the building to witness the day-to-day operations. So, I think there is doubt he actually knows what Chris is doing other than what John shares. The SVP of Player Personnel is still a pretty damn big title.
Mara's guilty of Hiring what he wants to hear  
Rafflee : 1/13/2022 6:52 pm : link
That very much explains the last 10 years... The "quality" that he's been getting is the affirmation of what he wishes to hear. Meddling or not, his biggest mistakes are about Hiring competent people.
RE: RE: GT...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 7:13 pm : link
In comment 15552023 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15552021 bw in dc said:


Quote:


That video was the 2021 draft.



Yeah I got mixed up. That's the one with Gettleman rubbing his hands like a lunatic, right?


Yes. The best part is the very end was DG walks away obviously annoyed at something. And Judge looks at him and laughs. Like DG is the spoiled kid who didn't get his way...
I think that scene of DG looking upset was after the trade down  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 7:19 pm : link
I bet he didn't want to do it.
RE: RE: …  
christian : 1/13/2022 7:21 pm : link
In comment 15551973 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Yes, but I ll let others worry about that. Been a fan since 56, I think Giants have second most championships behind Green Bay, not sure, but they have few, all the time being owned by a Mara

But I m done with the Mara issue, it s boring and not why I m a fan. Hire the right guy, they will win again.


Fair enough. I hope your optimism is harbinger of great things to come.
RE: It's not just Chris Mara  
Optimus-NY : 1/13/2022 8:10 pm : link
In comment 15551476 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
it's the whole inner circle of "untouchables" that continue to fail and yet continue to be employed.

Tell me why Chris Petit gets to stay on as director of college scouting again? Tell me what any of those pro personnel guys have done again that is worth keeping them for?

If the new GM comes in and wipes everyone out - I'm a believer...if that upper crust of management stays with direct ties to the owner...it ain't gonna work.


I agree. That will be a telltale sign of what's really going on.
Weis also said  
Jersey Heel : 1/13/2022 9:42 pm : link
His teams would have a decided schematic advantage when he was hired at Notre Dame. Shows how well he can assess people; in this case himself.
RE: So a guy that rushed a pick of a UDFA-quality DB in the 5th round  
SMitch-56 : 1/13/2022 11:03 pm : link
In comment 15551189 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
(Mykkele Thompson in 2015) so that he could get out of the war room in time to make the Kentucky Derby should be our GM?!?

If you think I am exaggerating please read this puff-piece from the time:

"Chris Mara helped guide the Giants through the late stages of the NFL draft on Saturday, then scrambled down to Louisville to watch his horse run in the Kentucky Derby—a rare double duty that would have made his father proud..." The Giants’ Chris Mara pulls NFL draft and Kentucky Derby double duty - Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )


Ugh… that article is downright depressing— that is a ton of involvement — to the point of every player gets CM’s personal grade written on them. I bet you not everyone in scouting gets to do that. It’s brutal how cavalier he appears in the article about the late rounds — no wonder our late picks are so poor. It’s the attitude of someone who’s job isn’t on the line. Worse, his claim to fame, finding Bradshaw, was just dumb luck that Kate was doing a movie— you can’t make this up.

And good or bad, he can never be held accountable— which has always been the issue. It’s not the nepotism per se, it’s the inability to fix a problem if it exists because of family ties and asymmetrical power relative to the position.

Personnel is critical, the Giants have sucked there, and smack dab in the middle is an owner. I would almost rather him be the GM because then everyone would know what he’s doing and he would have to at least face public accountability. Right now he always has this murky plausible deniability for whatever takes place.
Put a winning product on the field and no one  
St. Jimmy : 1/13/2022 11:14 pm : link
needs to speak up about what a good guy everyone is. I'm glad Weis knows about all the elite talent evaluation being "wasted" by Reese and Gettleman.
RE: I used to respect Papa...  
Ned In Atlanta : 1/14/2022 12:11 am : link
In comment 15551003 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:



Papa really gets his panties in a bunch every single time I’ve heard him bitch about BBI
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