for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Pat Leonard: Tisch Made Final Push to Fire Judge

Anando : 1/13/2022 11:48 am
Not sure if this was picked up yesterday, but thought it was interesting:
Quote:

Tisch should have to answer for coach Joe Judge’s firing in particular, because sources say Mara was the one who initially wanted to give the coach a third year, but Tisch pushed to blow it up after failing to achieve a full reset two years ago.

NY Daily News - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
It's worth noting again  
mittenedman : 1/13/2022 1:45 pm : link
that it's being reported on local Michigan radio that Tisch has asked permission to interview Jim Harbaugh. The Tisch's have been very generous donors to the University for years, and have building named after them on campus.

They would never do anything to hurt UM, but UM would never do anything to inconvenience Tisch either.
Good man.  
Silver Spoon : 1/13/2022 1:52 pm : link
Mara is clueless.
RE: It's worth noting again  
ZogZerg : 1/13/2022 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15551515 mittenedman said:
Quote:
that it's being reported on local Michigan radio that Tisch has asked permission to interview Jim Harbaugh. The Tisch's have been very generous donors to the University for years, and have building named after them on campus.

They would never do anything to hurt UM, but UM would never do anything to inconvenience Tisch either.


That's BS. There is no way the Giants are setting up coaching interview without a GM. And, there is no way JH will be GM.
ZogZerg  
mittenedman : 1/13/2022 1:54 pm : link
Maybe you're right, but I'm not sure why they'd lie about it.
John Harbaugh went from a ST coordinator to a 1st time HC  
arniefez : 1/13/2022 2:12 pm : link
and he's one of the very top coaches in the NFL.
Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:24 pm : link
He's really on top of this issue.

whatever fucking works  
djm : 1/13/2022 2:37 pm : link
hire the right GM and HC and Mara / Tisch won't have to make any more important football decisions.

Just get this right.
RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Essex : 1/13/2022 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's really on top of this issue.

Quote:
John Mara discouragingly met the media on the defensive Wednesday, acting like he doesn’t intend to make meaningful change in one of the NFL’s most dysfunctional organization


This was an article by a hack. Yeah the lede after he fired the GM and the HC is that he does not expect to make meaningful change. There is absolutely no nuance or subtlety to this column, it leaves out all the stuff Mara said about the scope of his influence. Chris is an owner, he is not going anywhere. I thought Mara's answers on Chris, while certainly defensive, sounded credible. The issue Mara does not really get is about the undue influence Chris has with the GM when it you put his evaluation into the pile--i.e, the GM gives it more of an eval knowing that it is the brother of the GM. That was the only problem I had with Mara's remarks. In the same article, Leonard says McDonell is highly regarded. Now, I have no idea if he is or is not, but if he is why wouldn't you want him there. As an argument this was as persuasive as a third-grade essay. With that said, I am grateful for the nugget that Tisch forced out Judge.
RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Chris684 : 1/13/2022 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's really on top of this issue.


You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.

RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:49 pm : link
In comment 15551609 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's really on top of this issue.




You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.


Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?

RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
UConn4523 : 1/13/2022 2:54 pm : link
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551609 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's really on top of this issue.




You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.




Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?


You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.
RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Chris684 : 1/13/2022 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551609 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's really on top of this issue.




You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.




Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?


Well I don't have to read beyond the headline which says flatly "Giants won't change at all" when in fact everything we've seen over the last 4 days is a major departure from the way you and others have said this would be.

Judge gone
No Abrams
Not one internal candidate
GM before Head Coach

Mara gave a pretty logical explanation of what his brother and nephew do here and why he feels it's not the problem it's made out to be. You have others from outside the organization basically backing up those claims.

Also, there is nepotism all over this league. Go look at some of the best franchises in this league wink wink KC and New England and you'll find some of the most obvious cases of it.

Also, why do we have to only look at the recent failures of Mara while leaving out that he was in charge when this franchise won 2 Super Bowls based on some very critical decisions that he made? At least tell the whole story.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 3:03 pm : link
In comment 15551643 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:

Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?




You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.


This is a football topic. About the way the Giants run their football processes.

And I asked a pretty simple question to Chris - was the question by Leonard unreasonable? Chris's attitude about the media's role was the reason I added my other rhetorical question.

But thanks for the usual sanctimony and advice.



RE: RE: It's worth noting again  
Red Right Hand : 1/13/2022 3:06 pm : link
In comment 15551533 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
In comment 15551515 mittenedman said:


Quote:


that it's being reported on local Michigan radio that Tisch has asked permission to interview Jim Harbaugh. The Tisch's have been very generous donors to the University for years, and have building named after them on campus.

They would never do anything to hurt UM, but UM would never do anything to inconvenience Tisch either.



That's BS. There is no way the Giants are setting up coaching interview without a GM. And, there is no way JH will be GM.
He didn't say the Giants were setting it up, he said Tisch was. Or did you not catch that part, and understand it's massive implications?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Chris684 : 1/13/2022 3:07 pm : link
In comment 15551667 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551643 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:

Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?




You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.



This is a football topic. About the way the Giants run their football processes.

And I asked a pretty simple question to Chris - was the question by Leonard unreasonable? Chris's attitude about the media's role was the reason I added my other rhetorical question.

But thanks for the usual sanctimony and advice.




The question? No. This article, yes.

It reeks of someone who was personally offended by John Mara which is not his role. But what can one expect from a shit stain like Leonard. Here's a guy who was whining about the media's view from training camp.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
UConn4523 : 1/13/2022 3:48 pm : link
In comment 15551667 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551643 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:

Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?




You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.



This is a football topic. About the way the Giants run their football processes.

And I asked a pretty simple question to Chris - was the question by Leonard unreasonable? Chris's attitude about the media's role was the reason I added my other rhetorical question.

But thanks for the usual sanctimony and advice.




Funny, sanctimony is what epitomizes so many of the posts these days speaking to the character and ethics of an NFL owner when really they are just mad the team sucks. The theatrics around John Mara, Chris Mara, the GM search, etc just wreaks.

Also, Pat Leonard has a really terrible track record. This isn't something that just popped up, he's always been a fairly miserable hack. He stated "its crystal clear the Giants don't intend to change" - well ok Pat, did all the firings happen or not? And just because you are butthurt about Chris Mara doesn't mean change hasn't or isn't happening.

Per usual with many in the media and BBI if the task at hand isn't done 100% to their liking it might has well be at 0%.
RE: I don't care about nepotism  
FStubbs : 1/13/2022 3:55 pm : link
In comment 15551325 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
It is their company. What matters more is competency. I know quite a few family businesses that operate at a high level. Let us not just disparage family business'- I know we don't mean too.


Let's be clear, while I don't like nepotism even offline, no one cares if Jonathan Tisch is Treasurer or Frank Tisch is over doing whatever he does.

People only care about Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell because they're in personnel and the personnel have sucked for years - coinciding neatly with Chris' elevation to his current position.
RE: RE: I don't care about nepotism  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 4:41 pm : link
In comment 15551813 FStubbs said:
Quote:


Let's be clear, while I don't like nepotism even offline, no one cares if Jonathan Tisch is Treasurer or Frank Tisch is over doing whatever he does.

People only care about Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell because they're in personnel and the personnel have sucked for years - coinciding neatly with Chris' elevation to his current position.


Yeah, but correlation does not necessarily mean causation in this instance. And while many fans/media may not like it, the CEO of the Giants is telling you there isn't causation from his vantage point.

You can make the argument that Mara is being stubborn to make a very easy change or blinded by the nepotism, but he also said that they are providing certain value and do not have undue influence on football ops. And that is his prerogative to not make an unnecessary change in running a private, family-owned business.

As to the value of Leonard's article...the opening line takes a pretty weak potshot that John Mara is "acting like he doesn’t intend to make meaningful change" with the franchise. Which is just ridiculous knowing that he is putting a full court press on to changeover arguably the two most important roles in the organization - the GM and the Head Coach.

Leonard poked the family and got some lines for his story out of it which was his end game. But there really isn't much more...
Correlation may very well not mean causation  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 5:00 pm : link
But when that information is coming from a familial relationship and the franchise intentionally vague about who does what, it's just common sense to be skeptical. As it is common sense for a business owner to be defensive when his product is under attack.

RE: Correlation may very well not mean causation  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 5:44 pm : link
In comment 15551909 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
But when that information is coming from a familial relationship and the franchise intentionally vague about who does what, it's just common sense to be skeptical. As it is common sense for a business owner to be defensive when his product is under attack.


Be skeptical all you want, but John answered the questions. Far more than I would have expected. And you know if he answered them in more detail, then there would ultimately only be more questions. Maybe there will be if the losing continues but we can save that until maybe the end of September, right?

And I think John covered it okay, maybe some vagueness but not because he was trying to cover-up a Watergate Scandal imv. But because it's a media session about the football team and changes at GM & HC, the jobs that really drive everything. This should not be akin to a senate oversight committee hearing as to whether Chris & Tim, or any other employee should be replaced in the public eye. Leave that up to their bosses.
Correlation v Causation  
ColHowPepper : 1/13/2022 5:52 pm : link
I lean strongly to TTH on this. Googs, you're usually pretty clear eyed on stuff like this, but it strikes me that you're hiding behind a 'correlation/causation' distinction, a false premise in this instance imo.

When the 3rd ranking Executive in the FO--we can ignore the inclusion of 3rd listed Treasurer Jonathan Tisch as a corporate nicety and bow of the head to co-ownership family--is listed as Sr. VP Player Personnel, the lack of quality of which is the gravamen of the Giants' status as League doormat, it challenges credibility that the title is mere figure head only and is only incidental, <unrelated>, to the core issue the team has faced for ~ ten years.

John Mara said all the right things, through his filter. He also said Chris' player reports are input into the system, that he consults with his brother on personnel: the GM and HC together make the final decision. We're lead to believe that the GM--Giant family stalwart Gettleman for the past 4 years--is deaf and blind to Chris' blandishments? What's the Brooklyn Bridge line? It's up to a new GM to make real what John Mara gave lip service to.
We stink at drafting  
kelly : 1/13/2022 5:58 pm : link
Chris and Tim run scouting since 2011. Garbage in is garbage out.

So they are part of the problem whether John wants to admit it or not.

But they have been exposed. If drafts continue to stink as they may. They no longer will be able to hide.
Why is this so difficult?  
dibc3 : 1/13/2022 6:11 pm : link
It took a long time for this issue to get attention, but now that it has received some the needed logic has been mentioned here a lot. If these individuals (Chris Mara etc.) have only ceremonial roles what is the big deal about renaming their roles? Or removing them? If they had substantial roles then weren't they (and aren't they) part of the problem? This is a class "heads-we-win, tails-you-lose" situation where whenever problems come up we are told these individuals are not remotely involved, and whenever credit needs to be assigned or it is suggested to make a change we are told how impressive these individuals are. I'm not sure I can believe either one of these, but the fact that we have been expected to believe both is a sign of deep problems.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 6:17 pm : link
In comment 15551659 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:




Well I don't have to read beyond the headline which says flatly "Giants won't change at all" when in fact everything we've seen over the last 4 days is a major departure from the way you and others have said this would be.

Judge gone
No Abrams
Not one internal candidate
GM before Head Coach

Mara gave a pretty logical explanation of what his brother and nephew do here and why he feels it's not the problem it's made out to be. You have others from outside the organization basically backing up those claims.

Also, there is nepotism all over this league. Go look at some of the best franchises in this league wink wink KC and New England and you'll find some of the most obvious cases of it.

Also, why do we have to only look at the recent failures of Mara while leaving out that he was in charge when this franchise won 2 Super Bowls based on some very critical decisions that he made? At least tell the whole story.


Recent failures? It's been a decade of ruins. Sorry, IMV, the expiration date has passed on the SB in 2011 as a sign of recent success.

I agree that Mara did the right thing by removing DG and Judge. But let's calm down a bit on saying Mara had a full epiphany. Because by other reports, Mara was ready to give Judge a third year until Tisch said NFW - blow it up.

And until Mara actually hires the GM first, and then the GM actually hires his HC, I'm still in wait and see mode.

So, for now, let's just say the horse is out of the starting gate cleanly. But there are still 8 furlongs to go.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 6:48 pm : link
In comment 15551994 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551659 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:




Well I don't have to read beyond the headline which says flatly "Giants won't change at all" when in fact everything we've seen over the last 4 days is a major departure from the way you and others have said this would be.

Judge gone
No Abrams
Not one internal candidate
GM before Head Coach

Mara gave a pretty logical explanation of what his brother and nephew do here and why he feels it's not the problem it's made out to be. You have others from outside the organization basically backing up those claims.

Also, there is nepotism all over this league. Go look at some of the best franchises in this league wink wink KC and New England and you'll find some of the most obvious cases of it.

Also, why do we have to only look at the recent failures of Mara while leaving out that he was in charge when this franchise won 2 Super Bowls based on some very critical decisions that he made? At least tell the whole story.




Recent failures? It's been a decade of ruins. Sorry, IMV, the expiration date has passed on the SB in 2011 as a sign of recent success.

I agree that Mara did the right thing by removing DG and Judge. But let's calm down a bit on saying Mara had a full epiphany. Because by other reports, Mara was ready to give Judge a third year until Tisch said NFW - blow it up.

And until Mara actually hires the GM first, and then the GM actually hires his HC, I'm still in wait and see mode.

So, for now, let's just say the horse is out of the starting gate cleanly. But there are still 8 furlongs to go.


Seriously, why rush to throw roses? They haven't earned any credit here. I'm not convinced they learned anything given its apparent Tisch had to talk John into doing the right thing.
RE: Correlation v Causation  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 7:12 pm : link
In comment 15551961 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
I lean strongly to TTH on this. Googs, you're usually pretty clear eyed on stuff like this, but it strikes me that you're hiding behind a 'correlation/causation' distinction, a false premise in this instance imo.

When the 3rd ranking Executive in the FO--we can ignore the inclusion of 3rd listed Treasurer Jonathan Tisch as a corporate nicety and bow of the head to co-ownership family--is listed as Sr. VP Player Personnel, the lack of quality of which is the gravamen of the Giants' status as League doormat, it challenges credibility that the title is mere figure head only and is only incidental, <unrelated>, to the core issue the team has faced for ~ ten years.

John Mara said all the right things, through his filter. He also said Chris' player reports are input into the system, that he consults with his brother on personnel: the GM and HC together make the final decision. We're lead to believe that the GM--Giant family stalwart Gettleman for the past 4 years--is deaf and blind to Chris' blandishments? What's the Brooklyn Bridge line? It's up to a new GM to make real what John Mara gave lip service to.


Look, I have been saying from the get-go that the GM drives the bus. Replace Getts with a competent talent evaluator at GM, improve the processes in the organization, and put together and execute a viable rebuilding plan that can then be converted into a longer term roster plan ensuring consistence success. The GM is what matters.

You all are guessing and making up stories that Chris' stuff also matters and that it is detrimental to the success of the organization...and I disagree. He is a "whatever" in the overall scheme of things versus the GM (and the Head Coach) and John confirmed it.

Why would John and Steve keep replacing their GMs and Head Coaches if the real root cause issues were coming out of Chris Mara's office and crappy advice? Do you really believe he would put up with that angst every year and bullshit of losing if he knew he could just tell Chris to stop loading his awful college eval reports in their database and stop coming to the draft war room with his 2 cent advice? Come on...this is nonsense witch-hunting crap.

I am clear eyed on this...

Can Tisch  
Shock-Man : 1/13/2022 7:14 pm : link
Make final push to fire Pat Leonard?
bw: "It's been a decade of ruins"  
dibc3 : 1/13/2022 7:31 pm : link
Not exactly. It's worse than that. You left out that Ben McAdoo improved the performance of the offense as OC, improved the record of the team as head coach (when almost everyone here predicted the opposite) - generating a better record than every year in the Coughlin era except one. Then correctly saw Eli's decline years before people here acknowledged it and wanted to draft Patrick Mahomes. A line that should be attached to the top of every article about the Giants: "McAdoo and Reese wanted to draft Patrick Mahomes!" But that was prevented. That single move would have completely changed the course of the Giants over the last 5 years, and probably the next 5 too. And then, when McAdoo and Reese - the only two people to come out of this whole mess with any honor whatsoever - made a stand for a basic principle that is at the root of modern football - We need better quarterback play - they were fired. There was a split in the organization between those who had a basic competence and those who, for whatever reason, did not. Ownership humiliated and fired the competent (McAdoo and Reese) who were ultimately proved correct, and retained (and added to) the incompetent. It makes a difference. As you say, what happens next is not so clear. It's one thing to hire a new GM and a new coach. What happens the next time that GM and coach want to make a decision to move on from a player - even a great, historic player. Does Mara let those with a track record, that he hired to do the job, make the decision? Or does he listen to the player, the former teammates of the player, the former coach of the player, the new GM who is clearly brought in to tell him what he wants to hear? Bottom line, he stuck for at least 4 years with the oldest coach in the league (who twice had to have his defensive coordinators replaced in the championship seasons - once by the players themselves), who refused to modernize his offensive system -with the result that the greatest QB in Giants history could not match the statistics of his own brother until the OC was changed, and who refused to move on from older O-line players that were "his guys". (No, not remotely Jerry Reese's fault.) Maybe because "we owed him". Stuck with Eli (yes, a historic player IN HIS PRIME) for years too long. Maybe because "We owed him, too". Stuck with Gettleman for 4 years, even though everything Gettleman promised was contradicted in less than a year after his hiring. But the guys who wanted to draft Mahomes, they were fired before we got to the end of even a single bad season. So what makes anyone think the judgment of ownership is any better now!

So it's too easy to say that the Giants have been terrible for a decade. It lets them off too easy. That's what a lot of people would like to do now, to deflect attention away from Mara and Gettleman and the fact that we had a chance to get this fixed. Not only passed on Mahomes! Passed on Josh Allen. Passed on Justin Herbert! It's infuriating!

I could easily see Mara hiring the "next" Gettleman and Judge, draft the "next" Daniel Jones, and stick with them for years. I could also easily see him hire the "next" Jerry Reese and Ben McAdoo, veto the QB they want to draft, and fire them, and watch that QB go on to greatness. Because that's the track record.

One of the things I learned from you, way back when, is that it's not a sin to admire and track the play of good players on other teams and that one can learn a lot from watching them. But I have to say, watching Justin Herbert makes me kind of sick. Maybe I can get over it at some point, because it seems like that's all I'm going to have for a while. When Eric says that teenagers see no reason to watch the Giants, I don't think he realizes how right he even is.

So no - it's not a decade of ruins. It's worse than that. It's a stage play tragedy. Ownership took a competent organization, coming off two championships, with lots of assets, and passed on many opportunities to continue success. It's as if, having proved you wrong about "the Giants Way" in the 2000's, they set out to do everything they could to prove you right in the 2010's. In some ways it's truly unbelievable. If Jerry Jones sent aliens to take over the bodies of Giants ownership and ruin the franchise, he could not have done any better.
dibc3...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 8:19 pm : link
Good stuff. You hit on a lot of important points.

I think we are in the minority here that McAdoo got a raw deal (Reese, IMV, had reached his end point). He certainly deserves credit for identifying that it was time to move on from Eli and focus on taking a QB high in the 2017 draft. And he found the right one in Mahomes. Too bad the other "football experts" in the draft room weren't brave enough to take that leap and make the same trade Buffalo did.

You're right. Talk about a huge, missed opportunity that could have significantly changed the direction of this franchise. A transcendent, HoF talent like Mahomes solves a lot of problems.

And then we add salt to the wound by passing on Allen and Herbert. Two more HoF talents.

It's critical the next GM pulls us out of this QB purgatory...
Mahomes would’ve sucked on this team, too  
exiled : 1/13/2022 10:28 pm : link
Just sayin’
RE: Mahomes would’ve sucked on this team, too  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 10:33 pm : link
In comment 15552282 exiled said:
Quote:
Just sayin’


Oh, sure.

And I'm guessing that Jones would be just as prolific as Mahomes if he played in KC instead, right?

Mahomes would be great anywhere. If you can't see it, well, you can't see.
Ultimately good for Tisch.  
St. Jimmy : 1/13/2022 10:56 pm : link
The Giants need an adult in the room for organization decisions. Hopefully he becomes more involved because the last 10 years have been awful. If it results in status quo, well at least it is a change from the perspection.
bw: Yes, definitely in the minority  
dibc3 : 1/13/2022 11:35 pm : link
as are you and GoTerps these days. Which I find very ironic, because now that your view is highly relevant you get so little support. But then, I'm always in the minority. 20 years ago, same story for me, I was in the minority. I think your view was much less relevant then (because we ended up winning 2 more Super Bowls) but at that time you had so many more people agreeing with you on this site! Your views are at least reasonably consistent over time. It seems to me that so many posters are always looking 5 to 10 years behind and end up completely out of sync with what is happening currently. 2004-2006 so many hated the drafting of Eli, thought Giants management was terrible, we would never win again, should have stuck with Collins and drafted Gallery! Ten years later, so many refused to move on from Eli (when he was on the downside) and loved everything Gettleman was doing! But while I think you were wrong back then, you clearly identified something in the Giants management methods (call it "the Giants Way" if you must.... can we just abbreviate it? TGW.) that came back with a vengeance and is extremely correct now. To their detriment.

You are obviously right that very few people here would agree with what I wrote, but for goodness sake, aren't a lot of those people the same people that thought Shurmur was going to be the adult in the room, Barkley a star, the Eli revenge tour, Gettleman a hog molly whisperer, and on and on? After the New Orleans game this year some people were saying that Daniel Jones and Gettleman were about to have their own revenge tour - we were right on the edge of elite! We might not lose another game all year, name the team that can beat us with our elite defense and stars jumping out all over the place on offense! Judge the coach of the year.... Maybe a contrary view every once in a while will actually be interesting.

So yes, I think a lot of fans here were in the camp of "everything Coughlin/Eli/Mara good, everything Reese/McAdoo bad". But, where did it get them....

On Reese - you could be right. He cut his teeth in scouting, and it might be that after 10 years as GM his insight into talent was outdated. That happens. Not why he was fired though.... The thing is, those few of us (very few) who would defend Reese - I think most would not care very much if the Giants had been well-managed after he was fired. I certainly would not have. Had we hired a GM who shared the Reese philosophy but just executed better, that would have been great! What would that have looked like? Not hanging on to older players (as players on the field, off the field is fine) out of loyalty for past accomplishments, for one. Those guys are all millionaires, even the average ones.... finding a play-making QB, play-making receivers, pass-rushers. Players in the secondary who generate turnovers. (I think McKinney is the one bright spot we have there now.) Offensive coaching that knows how to scheme players into space. Draft defensive tackles in the second and third round and RBs in the second and third round, not the first. You know, modern football. Because things change over time, and for better or worse (mostly better I think in this case) the game is not what it was in the 80s. But even for those who think it is not for the better, it is reality... and the Giants refused to accept reality so they did the exact opposite. And moved from an average team, that might have been fun to watch with a Mahomes/Allen/Herbert with a chance to improve - to the current huge disaster.


As to Reese - it is in the past at this point, but I think still a little relevant because it affect the way lots of fans view the present. So yes, I think he was blamed for a lot of things that were not his fault. His honorable policy of not talking to the press anonymously (not followed by many of the other people in the org, from what I can tell) really hurt him there. And here's the thing - for those that finally accept that Mara's decisions and insertion of his family into the power structure as far back as 2011 had a real affect - if one actually does believe that, that is not compatible with Reese being at fault for everything! But that's what a lot of people seem to believe - that Mara's only fault up to 4 years ago was not firing Reese sooner, and that ownership interference only magically began at that point. And as to why things didn't improve after he was fired - well, that's a mystery! Bad luck! The Giants just have a hex on them!

A summary of old news: The idea that it was Reese that wanted to hang on to Snee, Diehl, and O'Hara to the bitter end. Come on! That was Tom Coughlin. Sure, TC wanted to cut his son-in-law sooner and Jerry Reese fought him on it. The idea that Reese single-handedly ruined the OL. Come on. Will B. was a perfectly serviceable tackle (who got hurt) and a better pass blocker than Diehl, Weston Richburg signed a contract with the 49ers before he got hurt, Justin Pugh is still in the league, Ereck Flowers is still in the league. And does anyone really think that Justin Pugh, from Syracuse(!) was not a Tom Coughlin selection? Does anyone think that Ereck Flowers, who Jerry Reese said might make a good guard in the post-draft interview - does anyone think that was not a Tom Coughlin selection? Plugged in to start at left tackle on day 1.... At the very least, not a Reese selection. Overall, neither as bad as argued, or as much a product of Reese as argued.

And then we come to what I think is the funniest thing on this site in the last 4 years: Evan Engram. A player who constantly gets unbelievable bashing here because he is the last tie to the "Reese era". I tend to defend him out reflex, because he's not such a terrible player. A better coach with a better offensive system got some production out of him as a rookie. Since then, below average. Overall, average or below average, but not a terrible pick. He already had longer than the average NFL career. But let's say that the majority is right about Evan Engram: bad player. So here's the first hilarious part: That wasn't who Reese and McAdoo wanted to pick!! As we discussed above, they wanted Patrick Mahomes! Engram was selected by whatever part of the brain trust thought that Eli just needed another target.... But Reese gets the blame. It's outrageous, but I don't know what is funnier - that many fans don't actually know this, or that some pretend not to know. The second hilarious part, and I honestly have not seen this mentioned on the site before but maybe I missed it: Dave Gettleman has made a career of adding players from the 2017 draft who are worse than Evan Engram! John Ross, pick 9 of the 2017 draft. Adoree Jackson, pick 18 of the 2017 draft! Jabril Peppers, pick 25 of the 2017 draft! But somehow, Steve Serby can still write a column a few days ago knocking Reese, of all people, for passing on T.J. Watt in that draft....

Anyway, even if you're right and Reese is much more responsible for the decline than I think (which, remember, would make the Maras and Tim McDonnell less responsible), at worst he's a 2-time Super Bowl winning GM who declined. Someone who should at least get a little respect (if not be celebrated). There's no shame in being excellent, and then later being somewhat less than excellent. Nobody can be excellent all the time. The same goes for Tom Coughlin - the reverse applies here, mostly celebrated and the negatives rarely discussed on this site - still, a 2-time Super Bowl winning coach who declined, so has a certain amount of greatness despite the decline. And Eli Manning, a 2-time Super Bowl winning QB who also declined. The large difference in the way Reese is discussed, in my opinion, distorts reality which then hurts understanding. And as the ownership may have recently discovered, when you don't really understand it's almost impossible to make the right decisions. It's hard enough to make good decisions even with better information and understanding....

Looking forward, we obviously agree on the issue of QB play. I'm afraid that the Daniel Jones rear guard is not going to be happy if they do finally make a move, so either way it is going to be miserable. I suppose I would rather be miserable reading this site than miserable watching the games. If I actually can bear to watch.

And I agree with you that right now that the organization likely needs to be revamped in a very big way. My fear is that an organization that is so obsessed with how players look (as opposed to what they do) and how the organization looks from the inside (as opposed to the product visible on the field) is not really going to change. That they might change the visible faces, hope for a good draft or two and a few 8-8 seasons, and then go back to doing the things TGW.

I guess there's not much to do but wait and see. But when other people are writing that they have had enough, I definitely get it. And I am finally coming to terms more and more with the idea that maybe the Giants are just fond memories from the past, with family, but not something that is ever going to be entertaining or interesting in the future. I'm not the biggest Giant fan in the world, but it goes back 35 years into my childhood. And I said above, you and a few others on this site sparked my interest in learning something about the rest of the league. And it's so much easier to do that with modern technology. So where does that leave me? I don't root for the laundry, I root for the players. And the current players, in addition to not being very good and not holding out much hope for improvement, are not very interesting.

Sorry for the long post, but I was never good at short posts. Hopefully people can deal with one long post in 10 years - The way things are going with the Giants I'll probably have to disappear again for another 10 years, so it will even out. All the best to you and any of my other old internet friends here who see this post. Keep fighting the good fight. Go Giants.
Wait...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 11:43 pm : link
Are you dave in bears country??
Yes.  
dibc3 : 1/14/2022 12:37 am : link
Cheers.
Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
Chris684 : 1/14/2022 8:14 am : link
How did we ever let that guy get away!?

He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.
RE: RE: Correlation v Causation  
ColHowPepper : 1/14/2022 11:00 am : link
In comment 15552065 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
...It's up to a new GM to make real what John Mara gave lip service to.///
To be clear, J Googs, I think fwiw you are a really good contributor, clear eyed and caustic when many don't see the dark humor because of the way you often cloak it, ok?

Quote:
Look, I have been saying from the get-go that the GM drives the bus. Replace Getts with a competent talent evaluator at GM, improve the processes in the organization, and put together and execute a viable rebuilding plan that can then be converted into a longer term roster plan ensuring consistence success. The GM is what matters.
I don't think there is anyone on this board who disagrees with that: where I take issue is the GM driving the bus--past tense, DG. Where I think Mara's words are a bit of a smokescreen is this in that DG's choices showed his judgment to be if not compromised then wholly unexplainable:

Quote:
...and I disagree. [CMara] is a "whatever" in the overall scheme of things versus the GM (and the Head Coach) and John confirmed it.

Why would John and Steve keep replacing their GMs and Head Coaches if the real root cause issues were coming out of Chris Mara's office and crappy advice? ...Come on...this is nonsense witch-hunting crap.

I am clear eyed on this...
I don't know the answer to that question, but I am not fully persuaded it is witch hunting crap, for the following reason: When John says the decision is for the GM and HC to make, ok: but who has the GM been the past 4 years but for all intents and purposes a member of the Mara family going back to the good years? He came here and apparently bought into the Maras' wish to give Eli the tools for another run. It resulted in disastrous roster structuring decisions. I do not think it's beyond the pale to believe some part of Gettleman's draft thought processes were not wholly independent of Chris' wish lists. So the horse is beaten.
RE: Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
bw in dc : 1/14/2022 11:17 am : link
In comment 15552467 Chris684 said:
Quote:
How did we ever let that guy get away!?

He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.


Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.

Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.

Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.

In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
CHP - Thanks for the compliments...always enjoy back and forth  
Jimmy Googs : 1/14/2022 11:19 am : link
with you.

To be honest though I didn't follow this comment. Please explain again if you would...

Quote:
Where I think Mara's words are a bit of a smokescreen is this in that DG's choices showed his judgment to be if not compromised then wholly unexplainable:



And relative to the last following comment about Chris' wish lists...with all due respect unless you want to show me some linkage I would suggest you are simply guessing. As said, DG drives and if he was going down a bad path with picking a RB overall #2 or giving Solder a big deal and Chris Mara happened to be aligned, it doesn't mean Getts was just a patsy for what the Mara's wanted.

RE: RE: Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
Jimmy Googs : 1/14/2022 11:24 am : link
In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15552467 Chris684 said:


Quote:


How did we ever let that guy get away!?

He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.



Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.

Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.

Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.

In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.


Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?

quite the leap :-)
RE: Yes.  
bw in dc : 1/14/2022 11:25 am : link
In comment 15552365 dibc3 said:
Quote:
Cheers.


Great to see you posting. I think what tipped me off were your short, concise posts. ;)

I want to say we were mostly adversaries - in a gentlemanly way - but it was always good banter. Right?? It's been such a long time. Back in the days when BBI was the Wild West.

I hope things are well and you are in good health.

RE: RE: RE: Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
Chris684 : 1/14/2022 11:28 am : link
In comment 15552794 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15552467 Chris684 said:


Quote:


How did we ever let that guy get away!?

He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.



Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.

Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.

Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.

In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.



Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?

quite the leap :-)


The whole premise is quite the leap.

If McAdoo is Don Shula because of who succeeded him then Daniel Jones is Joe Montana by the same logic.

McAdoo is a failed head coach who hasn't done a thing since he was fired here. And if he loved Mahomes so much then he failed at convincing those around him of the same thing.
RE: RE: RE: Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
bw in dc : 1/14/2022 11:49 am : link
In comment 15552794 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:


In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.



Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?

quite the leap :-)


At least Mac was clear eyed enough to see it. The other bozos in that War Room that day were too busy listening to Chris wax on about Even Engram and why he made the call to draft him... ;)
If Riddick sucks because he liked Haskins  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/14/2022 11:57 am : link
Then Mac should get credit for pounding the table for Mahomes.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
Jimmy Googs : 1/14/2022 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15552847 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15552794 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:


In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.



Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?

quite the leap :-)



At least Mac was clear eyed enough to see it. The other bozos in that War Room that day were too busy listening to Chris wax on about Even Engram and why he made the call to draft him... ;)


dammit, I know you said that to needle me...

:-)
RE: RE: RE: RE: Wow, Ben McAdoo was really awesome in hindsight!  
Jimmy Googs : 1/14/2022 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15552801 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15552794 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15552467 Chris684 said:


Quote:


How did we ever let that guy get away!?

He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.



Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.

Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.

Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.

In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.



Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?

quite the leap :-)



The whole premise is quite the leap.

If McAdoo is Don Shula because of who succeeded him then Daniel Jones is Joe Montana by the same logic.

McAdoo is a failed head coach who hasn't done a thing since he was fired here. And if he loved Mahomes so much then he failed at convincing those around him of the same thing.


Don't be too hard on McAdoo. The NYG war room had their wagons hitched up to Evan Engram. And it takes a really sharp football mind to see that he was always going to be a reach...

:-)
RE: If Riddick sucks because he liked Haskins  
Chris684 : 1/14/2022 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15552866 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Then Mac should get credit for pounding the table for Mahomes.


Hey if you sleep better at night as a Giants fan trying to find ways to give credit to Ben McAdoo of all people then by all means go ahead! Quite the hill to die on.
I actually don't care about the Riddick stuff  
UConn4523 : 1/14/2022 12:38 pm : link
in regards to Haskins. No way to know if that was the GM or the TV guy talking. I don't think Riddick is a dumb guy I just question his ability to be the head of football operations. Seems like scouting is his wheelhouse and should stick to that.
RE: CHP - Thanks for the compliments...always enjoy back and forth  
ColHowPepper : 1/14/2022 4:30 pm : link
In comment 15552786 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
with you.
To be honest though I didn't follow this comment. Please explain again if you would...
Quote: /////////
Where I think Mara's words are a bit of a smokescreen is this in that DG's choices showed his judgment to be if not compromised then wholly unexplainable: ////////


And relative to the last following comment about Chris' wish lists...with all due respect unless you want to show me some linkage I would suggest you are simply guessing. As said, DG drives and if he was going down a bad path with picking a RB overall #2 or giving Solder a big deal and Chris Mara happened to be aligned, it doesn't mean Getts was just a patsy for what the Mara's wanted.
Sorry, was out dealing with messy markets. So, yes, compliment fully deserved, over a long and 'illustrious' body of work! (:

The smokescreen comment: Mara's saying the GM (and HC) driving the bus on personnel, ok fine, but if family (Chris) is in DG's ear because DG is also 'family' by virtue of owing a big part of his career to Mara loyalty to him, then DG's judgment is compromised by virtue of those ties and their wishes. Unexplainable would mean, per board consensus here, the SB pick to short up Eli, etc.

Guessing, of course; I certainly don't <know> and Jints Central (funny how, now that FMiC no longer here, bw doesn't even bother to use the term! Ha!) certainly operates behind a curtain. As to Solder, I'd guess that was all or mostly Gettleman, cuz focusing for most part on the draft. Gettleman has been almost singularly abjectly failed when it comes to FAs. I'd been focusing on John's comment about his brother's cards inserted into the system on prospective picks.
RE: RE: CHP - Thanks for the compliments...always enjoy back and forth  
Jimmy Googs : 1/14/2022 5:25 pm : link
In comment 15553352 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 15552786 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


with you.
To be honest though I didn't follow this comment. Please explain again if you would...
Quote: /////////
Where I think Mara's words are a bit of a smokescreen is this in that DG's choices showed his judgment to be if not compromised then wholly unexplainable: ////////


And relative to the last following comment about Chris' wish lists...with all due respect unless you want to show me some linkage I would suggest you are simply guessing. As said, DG drives and if he was going down a bad path with picking a RB overall #2 or giving Solder a big deal and Chris Mara happened to be aligned, it doesn't mean Getts was just a patsy for what the Mara's wanted.


Sorry, was out dealing with messy markets. So, yes, compliment fully deserved, over a long and 'illustrious' body of work! (:

The smokescreen comment: Mara's saying the GM (and HC) driving the bus on personnel, ok fine, but if family (Chris) is in DG's ear because DG is also 'family' by virtue of owing a big part of his career to Mara loyalty to him, then DG's judgment is compromised by virtue of those ties and their wishes. Unexplainable would mean, per board consensus here, the SB pick to short up Eli, etc.

Guessing, of course; I certainly don't <know> and Jints Central (funny how, now that FMiC no longer here, bw doesn't even bother to use the term! Ha!) certainly operates behind a curtain. As to Solder, I'd guess that was all or mostly Gettleman, cuz focusing for most part on the draft. Gettleman has been almost singularly abjectly failed when it comes to FAs. I'd been focusing on John's comment about his brother's cards inserted into the system on prospective picks.


Not logical. So Gettleman gets the job and, because he is family, follows mandate orders on Eli in 2018. But somehow he reverts against the family in 2019 and picks Jones? Stop with the conspiracy theories...they have no substance.

Gettleman is a simple moron and he had numerous opportunities to take this bad roster and turn it around and he failed. He was an egotistical blowhard who thought he was the smartest GM ever when he got the job in late 2017.

He did his poor evaluation on Eli in early 2018 and came to a conclusion he was a good enough QB to keep, so he told the Mara's that and they probably were relieved. Mistake

He knew had had to get some help on the OL. So once again he uses his usual poor evaluation skills and pays Solder and Omameh a ton of money to come in and stabilize things. Mistakes.

He has the #2 overall pick and he uses his poor roster building skills and lack of positional awareness and decides RB Saquon is the guy. Just like McCaffrey was his guy a year earlier in Carolina. Simply awful uses of high draft capital. Mistakes.

He completely misses the rebuild that was needed in 2018 so he starts down that path in 2019. Realizing he has to make up for lost time he uses, wait for it...wait for it...his poor evaluation skills and drafts Jones and drafts too early at that because he panicked. Mistake.

Gettleman has been a failure, not because he has tried to satisfy or compromise the wishes of others, but because he simply has poor player evaluation and poor roster building skills.

Resume Dave and his defenders will counter that with his successes which there are some...but they are few and far between. And some of those successes come with hitches like landing Leonard Williams but not being able to execute a reasonable contract, or drafting a good Tackle in Thomas but realizing the other OTs are gaining Pro Bowl or All-Pro nods, or finding Gates as an UDFA but then overestimating the competency of the rest of the interior OL this offseason.

Getts is gone...and things will get better. And it won't matter that Chris Mara is around because if the new GM has competent player eval and roster building skills, the family will fall in line or become irrelevant.

Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner