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Pat Leonard: Tisch Made Final Push to Fire Judge

Anando : 1/13/2022 11:48 am
Not sure if this was picked up yesterday, but thought it was interesting:
Quote:

Tisch should have to answer for coach Joe Judge’s firing in particular, because sources say Mara was the one who initially wanted to give the coach a third year, but Tisch pushed to blow it up after failing to achieve a full reset two years ago.

NY Daily News - ( New Window )
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Atta boy, Steve  
Anakim : 1/13/2022 11:48 am : link
Way to go!
Explains the delay from Monday to Tuesday  
George from PA : 1/13/2022 11:51 am : link
With owners differing opinion
It was the right call  
GIANTS128 : 1/13/2022 11:51 am : link
He didnt deserve another year based on his body of work. I would have been more inclined to keep him if our special teams was top 5 in the league. But even there he showed nothing and that is obviously his specialty.
Thank you  
jeff57 : 1/13/2022 11:54 am : link
He was this era’s Tim to John’s Wellington.
Leonard is critical of Mara's stubbornness  
TroyArchersGhost : 1/13/2022 11:55 am : link
In refusing to give up his family's involvement in football ops. Good. The media is finally waking up to the reality of the situation. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Maybe with some more heat, Mara will finally back off.
Steve Tisch...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/13/2022 11:56 am : link
He's the hero Giants fans deserve, but not the one we need right now.
I really don't understand the timing of this  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 11:56 am : link
If you believed Joe Judge was not the right guy to have the job going forward, one more start with QB3 under center should have had no impact on the thought process. Sunday's start shouldn't even have been part of the measurement process. It should have been easy by now to make a decision on the guy.
RE: I really don't understand the timing of this  
santacruzom : 1/13/2022 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15551241 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
If you believed Joe Judge was not the right guy to have the job going forward, one more start with QB3 under center should have had no impact on the thought process. Sunday's start shouldn't even have been part of the measurement process. It should have been easy by now to make a decision on the guy.


I agree, but across the league we saw abysmal teams with terrible records put up impressive fights and even come away with some wins, while ours was running QB sneaks on 3rd and long.

Perhaps that was just the back-breaking straw.
I should say  
santacruzom : 1/13/2022 12:02 pm : link
that all of this occurred on the last week of the season.
Tisch also was the force  
ron mexico : 1/13/2022 12:04 pm : link
behind Shurmur's ousting
Sounds right  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/13/2022 12:13 pm : link
Mara woukd be happy to lose forever as long as he doesn’t need to make any changes - just toss chairs around and act mad.
I don't care about nepotism  
BigBlueJ : 1/13/2022 12:26 pm : link
It is their company. What matters more is competency. I know quite a few family businesses that operate at a high level. Let us not just disparage family business'- I know we don't mean too.
You can blame DG for a lot but Judge screwed himself.  
Ivan15 : 1/13/2022 12:27 pm : link
He said he was going to have a staff of teachers but they didn’t teach the players anything. No one developed like they should have.
He thought the answer to coaching was to have as many coaches as possible when you can’t even have roles for all of them to fill and you have to have a coach whose only job was to help make in-game decisions (clearly a HC responsibility).
You can say you are going to play tough, old-timr football, but you don’t punt on 4th and 1 inside the 40. That’s not old time, that’s archaic.
When you are getting your butt kicked and you run 2 QB sneaks to avoid a meaningless safety or almost as meaningless turnover, what kind of competitiveness is that.
Mara no doubt loves this  
Mike from Ohio : 1/13/2022 12:33 pm : link
Makes him look weak and indecisive.

And I am not suggesting that this is either true or false, only the way it makes Mara look.
RE: Tisch also was the force  
Sammo85 : 1/13/2022 12:42 pm : link
In comment 15551268 ron mexico said:
Quote:
behind Shurmur's ousting


Not entirely - it's come out that Mara was not happy with how Shurmur was handling the locker room and scouts were critical of Shurmur's use of players they drafted and complaining.
...  
Pascal4554 : 1/13/2022 12:43 pm : link
Seems like Pat Leonard just likes to stir the pot for clicks. I found this article tough to read.
RE: Sounds right  
section125 : 1/13/2022 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15551295 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
Mara woukd be happy to lose forever as long as he doesn’t need to make any changes - just toss chairs around and act mad.


Ok, then
Tisch-inator!  
Les in TO : 1/13/2022 12:54 pm : link
Tisch Got involved after Geno-Gate in 2017, pressuring Mara to fire Reese and McAdoo while accompanying the team to Oakland. I suspected this is why Judge was awkwardly fired on Tuesday when all other teams parting ways with coaches did so on Monday
Whatever  
HomerJones45 : 1/13/2022 12:56 pm : link
Judge stunk up the place and needed to go along with Gettleman. However it came about, good
Hiring a special teams coordinator as a first time HC was doomed to...  
GFAN52 : 1/13/2022 1:24 pm : link
failure. At the very least you hire an offensive or defensive coordinator as a 1st time HC.
It's worth noting again  
mittenedman : 1/13/2022 1:45 pm : link
that it's being reported on local Michigan radio that Tisch has asked permission to interview Jim Harbaugh. The Tisch's have been very generous donors to the University for years, and have building named after them on campus.

They would never do anything to hurt UM, but UM would never do anything to inconvenience Tisch either.
Good man.  
Silver Spoon : 1/13/2022 1:52 pm : link
Mara is clueless.
RE: It's worth noting again  
ZogZerg : 1/13/2022 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15551515 mittenedman said:
Quote:
that it's being reported on local Michigan radio that Tisch has asked permission to interview Jim Harbaugh. The Tisch's have been very generous donors to the University for years, and have building named after them on campus.

They would never do anything to hurt UM, but UM would never do anything to inconvenience Tisch either.


That's BS. There is no way the Giants are setting up coaching interview without a GM. And, there is no way JH will be GM.
ZogZerg  
mittenedman : 1/13/2022 1:54 pm : link
Maybe you're right, but I'm not sure why they'd lie about it.
John Harbaugh went from a ST coordinator to a 1st time HC  
arniefez : 1/13/2022 2:12 pm : link
and he's one of the very top coaches in the NFL.
Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:24 pm : link
He's really on top of this issue.

whatever fucking works  
djm : 1/13/2022 2:37 pm : link
hire the right GM and HC and Mara / Tisch won't have to make any more important football decisions.

Just get this right.
RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Essex : 1/13/2022 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's really on top of this issue.

Quote:
John Mara discouragingly met the media on the defensive Wednesday, acting like he doesn’t intend to make meaningful change in one of the NFL’s most dysfunctional organization


This was an article by a hack. Yeah the lede after he fired the GM and the HC is that he does not expect to make meaningful change. There is absolutely no nuance or subtlety to this column, it leaves out all the stuff Mara said about the scope of his influence. Chris is an owner, he is not going anywhere. I thought Mara's answers on Chris, while certainly defensive, sounded credible. The issue Mara does not really get is about the undue influence Chris has with the GM when it you put his evaluation into the pile--i.e, the GM gives it more of an eval knowing that it is the brother of the GM. That was the only problem I had with Mara's remarks. In the same article, Leonard says McDonell is highly regarded. Now, I have no idea if he is or is not, but if he is why wouldn't you want him there. As an argument this was as persuasive as a third-grade essay. With that said, I am grateful for the nugget that Tisch forced out Judge.
RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Chris684 : 1/13/2022 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's really on top of this issue.


You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.

RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 2:49 pm : link
In comment 15551609 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's really on top of this issue.




You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.


Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?

RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
UConn4523 : 1/13/2022 2:54 pm : link
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551609 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's really on top of this issue.




You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.




Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?


You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.
RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Chris684 : 1/13/2022 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551609 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551589 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's really on top of this issue.




You think this piece of toilet paper is "terrific"?

Notice what happens when anyone in this country in any walk of life, sport, or whatever goes back at the media. Not that that's even what Mara really did. He just politely challenged some of the insinuations made against his organization in their line of questioning. The media gets on their high horse and starts throwing around accusations because the media tend to think they're all really important. More important than regular people.




Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?


Well I don't have to read beyond the headline which says flatly "Giants won't change at all" when in fact everything we've seen over the last 4 days is a major departure from the way you and others have said this would be.

Judge gone
No Abrams
Not one internal candidate
GM before Head Coach

Mara gave a pretty logical explanation of what his brother and nephew do here and why he feels it's not the problem it's made out to be. You have others from outside the organization basically backing up those claims.

Also, there is nepotism all over this league. Go look at some of the best franchises in this league wink wink KC and New England and you'll find some of the most obvious cases of it.

Also, why do we have to only look at the recent failures of Mara while leaving out that he was in charge when this franchise won 2 Super Bowls based on some very critical decisions that he made? At least tell the whole story.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 3:03 pm : link
In comment 15551643 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:

Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?




You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.


This is a football topic. About the way the Giants run their football processes.

And I asked a pretty simple question to Chris - was the question by Leonard unreasonable? Chris's attitude about the media's role was the reason I added my other rhetorical question.

But thanks for the usual sanctimony and advice.



RE: RE: It's worth noting again  
Red Right Hand : 1/13/2022 3:06 pm : link
In comment 15551533 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
In comment 15551515 mittenedman said:


Quote:


that it's being reported on local Michigan radio that Tisch has asked permission to interview Jim Harbaugh. The Tisch's have been very generous donors to the University for years, and have building named after them on campus.

They would never do anything to hurt UM, but UM would never do anything to inconvenience Tisch either.



That's BS. There is no way the Giants are setting up coaching interview without a GM. And, there is no way JH will be GM.
He didn't say the Giants were setting it up, he said Tisch was. Or did you not catch that part, and understand it's massive implications?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Chris684 : 1/13/2022 3:07 pm : link
In comment 15551667 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551643 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:

Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?




You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.



This is a football topic. About the way the Giants run their football processes.

And I asked a pretty simple question to Chris - was the question by Leonard unreasonable? Chris's attitude about the media's role was the reason I added my other rhetorical question.

But thanks for the usual sanctimony and advice.




The question? No. This article, yes.

It reeks of someone who was personally offended by John Mara which is not his role. But what can one expect from a shit stain like Leonard. Here's a guy who was whining about the media's view from training camp.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
UConn4523 : 1/13/2022 3:48 pm : link
In comment 15551667 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551643 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:

Was the question unreasonable by Leonard? Or should the media just assume that the Maras are good people, try hard, have class, and their business should go unchallenged?




You and others have a really hard time separating "good people, trying hard, and having class" with questioning their business decisions. When you lump everything together it comes off as agenda driven and a nice easy out to keep from discussing one specific thing.

Why don't you stick to just football since trying to tear down Mara's character seems really childish and unwarranted. You might get a better dialogue going too.



This is a football topic. About the way the Giants run their football processes.

And I asked a pretty simple question to Chris - was the question by Leonard unreasonable? Chris's attitude about the media's role was the reason I added my other rhetorical question.

But thanks for the usual sanctimony and advice.




Funny, sanctimony is what epitomizes so many of the posts these days speaking to the character and ethics of an NFL owner when really they are just mad the team sucks. The theatrics around John Mara, Chris Mara, the GM search, etc just wreaks.

Also, Pat Leonard has a really terrible track record. This isn't something that just popped up, he's always been a fairly miserable hack. He stated "its crystal clear the Giants don't intend to change" - well ok Pat, did all the firings happen or not? And just because you are butthurt about Chris Mara doesn't mean change hasn't or isn't happening.

Per usual with many in the media and BBI if the task at hand isn't done 100% to their liking it might has well be at 0%.
RE: I don't care about nepotism  
FStubbs : 1/13/2022 3:55 pm : link
In comment 15551325 BigBlueJ said:
Quote:
It is their company. What matters more is competency. I know quite a few family businesses that operate at a high level. Let us not just disparage family business'- I know we don't mean too.


Let's be clear, while I don't like nepotism even offline, no one cares if Jonathan Tisch is Treasurer or Frank Tisch is over doing whatever he does.

People only care about Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell because they're in personnel and the personnel have sucked for years - coinciding neatly with Chris' elevation to his current position.
RE: RE: I don't care about nepotism  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 4:41 pm : link
In comment 15551813 FStubbs said:
Quote:


Let's be clear, while I don't like nepotism even offline, no one cares if Jonathan Tisch is Treasurer or Frank Tisch is over doing whatever he does.

People only care about Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell because they're in personnel and the personnel have sucked for years - coinciding neatly with Chris' elevation to his current position.


Yeah, but correlation does not necessarily mean causation in this instance. And while many fans/media may not like it, the CEO of the Giants is telling you there isn't causation from his vantage point.

You can make the argument that Mara is being stubborn to make a very easy change or blinded by the nepotism, but he also said that they are providing certain value and do not have undue influence on football ops. And that is his prerogative to not make an unnecessary change in running a private, family-owned business.

As to the value of Leonard's article...the opening line takes a pretty weak potshot that John Mara is "acting like he doesn’t intend to make meaningful change" with the franchise. Which is just ridiculous knowing that he is putting a full court press on to changeover arguably the two most important roles in the organization - the GM and the Head Coach.

Leonard poked the family and got some lines for his story out of it which was his end game. But there really isn't much more...
Correlation may very well not mean causation  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 5:00 pm : link
But when that information is coming from a familial relationship and the franchise intentionally vague about who does what, it's just common sense to be skeptical. As it is common sense for a business owner to be defensive when his product is under attack.

RE: Correlation may very well not mean causation  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 5:44 pm : link
In comment 15551909 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
But when that information is coming from a familial relationship and the franchise intentionally vague about who does what, it's just common sense to be skeptical. As it is common sense for a business owner to be defensive when his product is under attack.


Be skeptical all you want, but John answered the questions. Far more than I would have expected. And you know if he answered them in more detail, then there would ultimately only be more questions. Maybe there will be if the losing continues but we can save that until maybe the end of September, right?

And I think John covered it okay, maybe some vagueness but not because he was trying to cover-up a Watergate Scandal imv. But because it's a media session about the football team and changes at GM & HC, the jobs that really drive everything. This should not be akin to a senate oversight committee hearing as to whether Chris & Tim, or any other employee should be replaced in the public eye. Leave that up to their bosses.
Correlation v Causation  
ColHowPepper : 1/13/2022 5:52 pm : link
I lean strongly to TTH on this. Googs, you're usually pretty clear eyed on stuff like this, but it strikes me that you're hiding behind a 'correlation/causation' distinction, a false premise in this instance imo.

When the 3rd ranking Executive in the FO--we can ignore the inclusion of 3rd listed Treasurer Jonathan Tisch as a corporate nicety and bow of the head to co-ownership family--is listed as Sr. VP Player Personnel, the lack of quality of which is the gravamen of the Giants' status as League doormat, it challenges credibility that the title is mere figure head only and is only incidental, <unrelated>, to the core issue the team has faced for ~ ten years.

John Mara said all the right things, through his filter. He also said Chris' player reports are input into the system, that he consults with his brother on personnel: the GM and HC together make the final decision. We're lead to believe that the GM--Giant family stalwart Gettleman for the past 4 years--is deaf and blind to Chris' blandishments? What's the Brooklyn Bridge line? It's up to a new GM to make real what John Mara gave lip service to.
We stink at drafting  
kelly : 1/13/2022 5:58 pm : link
Chris and Tim run scouting since 2011. Garbage in is garbage out.

So they are part of the problem whether John wants to admit it or not.

But they have been exposed. If drafts continue to stink as they may. They no longer will be able to hide.
Why is this so difficult?  
dibc3 : 1/13/2022 6:11 pm : link
It took a long time for this issue to get attention, but now that it has received some the needed logic has been mentioned here a lot. If these individuals (Chris Mara etc.) have only ceremonial roles what is the big deal about renaming their roles? Or removing them? If they had substantial roles then weren't they (and aren't they) part of the problem? This is a class "heads-we-win, tails-you-lose" situation where whenever problems come up we are told these individuals are not remotely involved, and whenever credit needs to be assigned or it is suggested to make a change we are told how impressive these individuals are. I'm not sure I can believe either one of these, but the fact that we have been expected to believe both is a sign of deep problems.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 6:17 pm : link
In comment 15551659 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:




Well I don't have to read beyond the headline which says flatly "Giants won't change at all" when in fact everything we've seen over the last 4 days is a major departure from the way you and others have said this would be.

Judge gone
No Abrams
Not one internal candidate
GM before Head Coach

Mara gave a pretty logical explanation of what his brother and nephew do here and why he feels it's not the problem it's made out to be. You have others from outside the organization basically backing up those claims.

Also, there is nepotism all over this league. Go look at some of the best franchises in this league wink wink KC and New England and you'll find some of the most obvious cases of it.

Also, why do we have to only look at the recent failures of Mara while leaving out that he was in charge when this franchise won 2 Super Bowls based on some very critical decisions that he made? At least tell the whole story.


Recent failures? It's been a decade of ruins. Sorry, IMV, the expiration date has passed on the SB in 2011 as a sign of recent success.

I agree that Mara did the right thing by removing DG and Judge. But let's calm down a bit on saying Mara had a full epiphany. Because by other reports, Mara was ready to give Judge a third year until Tisch said NFW - blow it up.

And until Mara actually hires the GM first, and then the GM actually hires his HC, I'm still in wait and see mode.

So, for now, let's just say the horse is out of the starting gate cleanly. But there are still 8 furlongs to go.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terrific column by Leonard...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/13/2022 6:48 pm : link
In comment 15551994 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15551659 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 15551635 bw in dc said:




Well I don't have to read beyond the headline which says flatly "Giants won't change at all" when in fact everything we've seen over the last 4 days is a major departure from the way you and others have said this would be.

Judge gone
No Abrams
Not one internal candidate
GM before Head Coach

Mara gave a pretty logical explanation of what his brother and nephew do here and why he feels it's not the problem it's made out to be. You have others from outside the organization basically backing up those claims.

Also, there is nepotism all over this league. Go look at some of the best franchises in this league wink wink KC and New England and you'll find some of the most obvious cases of it.

Also, why do we have to only look at the recent failures of Mara while leaving out that he was in charge when this franchise won 2 Super Bowls based on some very critical decisions that he made? At least tell the whole story.




Recent failures? It's been a decade of ruins. Sorry, IMV, the expiration date has passed on the SB in 2011 as a sign of recent success.

I agree that Mara did the right thing by removing DG and Judge. But let's calm down a bit on saying Mara had a full epiphany. Because by other reports, Mara was ready to give Judge a third year until Tisch said NFW - blow it up.

And until Mara actually hires the GM first, and then the GM actually hires his HC, I'm still in wait and see mode.

So, for now, let's just say the horse is out of the starting gate cleanly. But there are still 8 furlongs to go.


Seriously, why rush to throw roses? They haven't earned any credit here. I'm not convinced they learned anything given its apparent Tisch had to talk John into doing the right thing.
RE: Correlation v Causation  
Jimmy Googs : 1/13/2022 7:12 pm : link
In comment 15551961 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
I lean strongly to TTH on this. Googs, you're usually pretty clear eyed on stuff like this, but it strikes me that you're hiding behind a 'correlation/causation' distinction, a false premise in this instance imo.

When the 3rd ranking Executive in the FO--we can ignore the inclusion of 3rd listed Treasurer Jonathan Tisch as a corporate nicety and bow of the head to co-ownership family--is listed as Sr. VP Player Personnel, the lack of quality of which is the gravamen of the Giants' status as League doormat, it challenges credibility that the title is mere figure head only and is only incidental, <unrelated>, to the core issue the team has faced for ~ ten years.

John Mara said all the right things, through his filter. He also said Chris' player reports are input into the system, that he consults with his brother on personnel: the GM and HC together make the final decision. We're lead to believe that the GM--Giant family stalwart Gettleman for the past 4 years--is deaf and blind to Chris' blandishments? What's the Brooklyn Bridge line? It's up to a new GM to make real what John Mara gave lip service to.


Look, I have been saying from the get-go that the GM drives the bus. Replace Getts with a competent talent evaluator at GM, improve the processes in the organization, and put together and execute a viable rebuilding plan that can then be converted into a longer term roster plan ensuring consistence success. The GM is what matters.

You all are guessing and making up stories that Chris' stuff also matters and that it is detrimental to the success of the organization...and I disagree. He is a "whatever" in the overall scheme of things versus the GM (and the Head Coach) and John confirmed it.

Why would John and Steve keep replacing their GMs and Head Coaches if the real root cause issues were coming out of Chris Mara's office and crappy advice? Do you really believe he would put up with that angst every year and bullshit of losing if he knew he could just tell Chris to stop loading his awful college eval reports in their database and stop coming to the draft war room with his 2 cent advice? Come on...this is nonsense witch-hunting crap.

I am clear eyed on this...

Can Tisch  
Shock-Man : 1/13/2022 7:14 pm : link
Make final push to fire Pat Leonard?
bw: "It's been a decade of ruins"  
dibc3 : 1/13/2022 7:31 pm : link
Not exactly. It's worse than that. You left out that Ben McAdoo improved the performance of the offense as OC, improved the record of the team as head coach (when almost everyone here predicted the opposite) - generating a better record than every year in the Coughlin era except one. Then correctly saw Eli's decline years before people here acknowledged it and wanted to draft Patrick Mahomes. A line that should be attached to the top of every article about the Giants: "McAdoo and Reese wanted to draft Patrick Mahomes!" But that was prevented. That single move would have completely changed the course of the Giants over the last 5 years, and probably the next 5 too. And then, when McAdoo and Reese - the only two people to come out of this whole mess with any honor whatsoever - made a stand for a basic principle that is at the root of modern football - We need better quarterback play - they were fired. There was a split in the organization between those who had a basic competence and those who, for whatever reason, did not. Ownership humiliated and fired the competent (McAdoo and Reese) who were ultimately proved correct, and retained (and added to) the incompetent. It makes a difference. As you say, what happens next is not so clear. It's one thing to hire a new GM and a new coach. What happens the next time that GM and coach want to make a decision to move on from a player - even a great, historic player. Does Mara let those with a track record, that he hired to do the job, make the decision? Or does he listen to the player, the former teammates of the player, the former coach of the player, the new GM who is clearly brought in to tell him what he wants to hear? Bottom line, he stuck for at least 4 years with the oldest coach in the league (who twice had to have his defensive coordinators replaced in the championship seasons - once by the players themselves), who refused to modernize his offensive system -with the result that the greatest QB in Giants history could not match the statistics of his own brother until the OC was changed, and who refused to move on from older O-line players that were "his guys". (No, not remotely Jerry Reese's fault.) Maybe because "we owed him". Stuck with Eli (yes, a historic player IN HIS PRIME) for years too long. Maybe because "We owed him, too". Stuck with Gettleman for 4 years, even though everything Gettleman promised was contradicted in less than a year after his hiring. But the guys who wanted to draft Mahomes, they were fired before we got to the end of even a single bad season. So what makes anyone think the judgment of ownership is any better now!

So it's too easy to say that the Giants have been terrible for a decade. It lets them off too easy. That's what a lot of people would like to do now, to deflect attention away from Mara and Gettleman and the fact that we had a chance to get this fixed. Not only passed on Mahomes! Passed on Josh Allen. Passed on Justin Herbert! It's infuriating!

I could easily see Mara hiring the "next" Gettleman and Judge, draft the "next" Daniel Jones, and stick with them for years. I could also easily see him hire the "next" Jerry Reese and Ben McAdoo, veto the QB they want to draft, and fire them, and watch that QB go on to greatness. Because that's the track record.

One of the things I learned from you, way back when, is that it's not a sin to admire and track the play of good players on other teams and that one can learn a lot from watching them. But I have to say, watching Justin Herbert makes me kind of sick. Maybe I can get over it at some point, because it seems like that's all I'm going to have for a while. When Eric says that teenagers see no reason to watch the Giants, I don't think he realizes how right he even is.

So no - it's not a decade of ruins. It's worse than that. It's a stage play tragedy. Ownership took a competent organization, coming off two championships, with lots of assets, and passed on many opportunities to continue success. It's as if, having proved you wrong about "the Giants Way" in the 2000's, they set out to do everything they could to prove you right in the 2010's. In some ways it's truly unbelievable. If Jerry Jones sent aliens to take over the bodies of Giants ownership and ruin the franchise, he could not have done any better.
dibc3...  
bw in dc : 1/13/2022 8:19 pm : link
Good stuff. You hit on a lot of important points.

I think we are in the minority here that McAdoo got a raw deal (Reese, IMV, had reached his end point). He certainly deserves credit for identifying that it was time to move on from Eli and focus on taking a QB high in the 2017 draft. And he found the right one in Mahomes. Too bad the other "football experts" in the draft room weren't brave enough to take that leap and make the same trade Buffalo did.

You're right. Talk about a huge, missed opportunity that could have significantly changed the direction of this franchise. A transcendent, HoF talent like Mahomes solves a lot of problems.

And then we add salt to the wound by passing on Allen and Herbert. Two more HoF talents.

It's critical the next GM pulls us out of this QB purgatory...
Mahomes would’ve sucked on this team, too  
exiled : 1/13/2022 10:28 pm : link
Just sayin’
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