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Tisch should have to answer for coach Joe Judge’s firing in particular, because sources say Mara was the one who initially wanted to give the coach a third year, but Tisch pushed to blow it up after failing to achieve a full reset two years ago. |
Oh, sure.
And I'm guessing that Jones would be just as prolific as Mahomes if he played in KC instead, right?
Mahomes would be great anywhere. If you can't see it, well, you can't see.
You are obviously right that very few people here would agree with what I wrote, but for goodness sake, aren't a lot of those people the same people that thought Shurmur was going to be the adult in the room, Barkley a star, the Eli revenge tour, Gettleman a hog molly whisperer, and on and on? After the New Orleans game this year some people were saying that Daniel Jones and Gettleman were about to have their own revenge tour - we were right on the edge of elite! We might not lose another game all year, name the team that can beat us with our elite defense and stars jumping out all over the place on offense! Judge the coach of the year.... Maybe a contrary view every once in a while will actually be interesting.
So yes, I think a lot of fans here were in the camp of "everything Coughlin/Eli/Mara good, everything Reese/McAdoo bad". But, where did it get them....
On Reese - you could be right. He cut his teeth in scouting, and it might be that after 10 years as GM his insight into talent was outdated. That happens. Not why he was fired though.... The thing is, those few of us (very few) who would defend Reese - I think most would not care very much if the Giants had been well-managed after he was fired. I certainly would not have. Had we hired a GM who shared the Reese philosophy but just executed better, that would have been great! What would that have looked like? Not hanging on to older players (as players on the field, off the field is fine) out of loyalty for past accomplishments, for one. Those guys are all millionaires, even the average ones.... finding a play-making QB, play-making receivers, pass-rushers. Players in the secondary who generate turnovers. (I think McKinney is the one bright spot we have there now.) Offensive coaching that knows how to scheme players into space. Draft defensive tackles in the second and third round and RBs in the second and third round, not the first. You know, modern football. Because things change over time, and for better or worse (mostly better I think in this case) the game is not what it was in the 80s. But even for those who think it is not for the better, it is reality... and the Giants refused to accept reality so they did the exact opposite. And moved from an average team, that might have been fun to watch with a Mahomes/Allen/Herbert with a chance to improve - to the current huge disaster.
As to Reese - it is in the past at this point, but I think still a little relevant because it affect the way lots of fans view the present. So yes, I think he was blamed for a lot of things that were not his fault. His honorable policy of not talking to the press anonymously (not followed by many of the other people in the org, from what I can tell) really hurt him there. And here's the thing - for those that finally accept that Mara's decisions and insertion of his family into the power structure as far back as 2011 had a real affect - if one actually does believe that, that is not compatible with Reese being at fault for everything! But that's what a lot of people seem to believe - that Mara's only fault up to 4 years ago was not firing Reese sooner, and that ownership interference only magically began at that point. And as to why things didn't improve after he was fired - well, that's a mystery! Bad luck! The Giants just have a hex on them!
A summary of old news: The idea that it was Reese that wanted to hang on to Snee, Diehl, and O'Hara to the bitter end. Come on! That was Tom Coughlin. Sure, TC wanted to cut his son-in-law sooner and Jerry Reese fought him on it. The idea that Reese single-handedly ruined the OL. Come on. Will B. was a perfectly serviceable tackle (who got hurt) and a better pass blocker than Diehl, Weston Richburg signed a contract with the 49ers before he got hurt, Justin Pugh is still in the league, Ereck Flowers is still in the league. And does anyone really think that Justin Pugh, from Syracuse(!) was not a Tom Coughlin selection? Does anyone think that Ereck Flowers, who Jerry Reese said might make a good guard in the post-draft interview - does anyone think that was not a Tom Coughlin selection? Plugged in to start at left tackle on day 1.... At the very least, not a Reese selection. Overall, neither as bad as argued, or as much a product of Reese as argued.
And then we come to what I think is the funniest thing on this site in the last 4 years: Evan Engram. A player who constantly gets unbelievable bashing here because he is the last tie to the "Reese era". I tend to defend him out reflex, because he's not such a terrible player. A better coach with a better offensive system got some production out of him as a rookie. Since then, below average. Overall, average or below average, but not a terrible pick. He already had longer than the average NFL career. But let's say that the majority is right about Evan Engram: bad player. So here's the first hilarious part: That wasn't who Reese and McAdoo wanted to pick!! As we discussed above, they wanted Patrick Mahomes! Engram was selected by whatever part of the brain trust thought that Eli just needed another target.... But Reese gets the blame. It's outrageous, but I don't know what is funnier - that many fans don't actually know this, or that some pretend not to know. The second hilarious part, and I honestly have not seen this mentioned on the site before but maybe I missed it: Dave Gettleman has made a career of adding players from the 2017 draft who are worse than Evan Engram! John Ross, pick 9 of the 2017 draft. Adoree Jackson, pick 18 of the 2017 draft! Jabril Peppers, pick 25 of the 2017 draft! But somehow, Steve Serby can still write a column a few days ago knocking Reese, of all people, for passing on T.J. Watt in that draft....
Anyway, even if you're right and Reese is much more responsible for the decline than I think (which, remember, would make the Maras and Tim McDonnell less responsible), at worst he's a 2-time Super Bowl winning GM who declined. Someone who should at least get a little respect (if not be celebrated). There's no shame in being excellent, and then later being somewhat less than excellent. Nobody can be excellent all the time. The same goes for Tom Coughlin - the reverse applies here, mostly celebrated and the negatives rarely discussed on this site - still, a 2-time Super Bowl winning coach who declined, so has a certain amount of greatness despite the decline. And Eli Manning, a 2-time Super Bowl winning QB who also declined. The large difference in the way Reese is discussed, in my opinion, distorts reality which then hurts understanding. And as the ownership may have recently discovered, when you don't really understand it's almost impossible to make the right decisions. It's hard enough to make good decisions even with better information and understanding....
Looking forward, we obviously agree on the issue of QB play. I'm afraid that the Daniel Jones rear guard is not going to be happy if they do finally make a move, so either way it is going to be miserable. I suppose I would rather be miserable reading this site than miserable watching the games. If I actually can bear to watch.
And I agree with you that right now that the organization likely needs to be revamped in a very big way. My fear is that an organization that is so obsessed with how players look (as opposed to what they do) and how the organization looks from the inside (as opposed to the product visible on the field) is not really going to change. That they might change the visible faces, hope for a good draft or two and a few 8-8 seasons, and then go back to doing the things TGW.
I guess there's not much to do but wait and see. But when other people are writing that they have had enough, I definitely get it. And I am finally coming to terms more and more with the idea that maybe the Giants are just fond memories from the past, with family, but not something that is ever going to be entertaining or interesting in the future. I'm not the biggest Giant fan in the world, but it goes back 35 years into my childhood. And I said above, you and a few others on this site sparked my interest in learning something about the rest of the league. And it's so much easier to do that with modern technology. So where does that leave me? I don't root for the laundry, I root for the players. And the current players, in addition to not being very good and not holding out much hope for improvement, are not very interesting.
Sorry for the long post, but I was never good at short posts. Hopefully people can deal with one long post in 10 years - The way things are going with the Giants I'll probably have to disappear again for another 10 years, so it will even out. All the best to you and any of my other old internet friends here who see this post. Keep fighting the good fight. Go Giants.
He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.
Why would John and Steve keep replacing their GMs and Head Coaches if the real root cause issues were coming out of Chris Mara's office and crappy advice? ...Come on...this is nonsense witch-hunting crap.
I am clear eyed on this...
He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.
Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.
Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.
Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.
In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
To be honest though I didn't follow this comment. Please explain again if you would...
And relative to the last following comment about Chris' wish lists...with all due respect unless you want to show me some linkage I would suggest you are simply guessing. As said, DG drives and if he was going down a bad path with picking a RB overall #2 or giving Solder a big deal and Chris Mara happened to be aligned, it doesn't mean Getts was just a patsy for what the Mara's wanted.
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How did we ever let that guy get away!?
He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.
Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.
Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.
Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.
In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?
quite the leap :-)
Great to see you posting. I think what tipped me off were your short, concise posts. ;)
I want to say we were mostly adversaries - in a gentlemanly way - but it was always good banter. Right?? It's been such a long time. Back in the days when BBI was the Wild West.
I hope things are well and you are in good health.
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In comment 15552467 Chris684 said:
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How did we ever let that guy get away!?
He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.
Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.
Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.
Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.
In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?
quite the leap :-)
The whole premise is quite the leap.
If McAdoo is Don Shula because of who succeeded him then Daniel Jones is Joe Montana by the same logic.
McAdoo is a failed head coach who hasn't done a thing since he was fired here. And if he loved Mahomes so much then he failed at convincing those around him of the same thing.
In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?
quite the leap :-)
At least Mac was clear eyed enough to see it. The other bozos in that War Room that day were too busy listening to Chris wax on about Even Engram and why he made the call to draft him... ;)
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In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:
In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?
quite the leap :-)
At least Mac was clear eyed enough to see it. The other bozos in that War Room that day were too busy listening to Chris wax on about Even Engram and why he made the call to draft him... ;)
dammit, I know you said that to needle me...
:-)
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In comment 15552779 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15552467 Chris684 said:
Quote:
How did we ever let that guy get away!?
He has gone on to do such big things after NYG canned him.
Mac wasn't awesome. But compared to the people he worked with, and those who succeeded him, he looks like Don Shula.
Even Mara has suggested he probably moved too quickly to fire Mac. Which he absolutely did.
Look, I'm not Mac guy, but what Mara did to him was classless for someone who apparently values class. Mac saw Eli's decline and he was smart enough to see an opportunity to replace Eli was a special talent like Mahomes.
In hindsight, we probably should have just moved Mac to the GM role.
Make him GM because he thought Mahomes was going to be a good QB?
quite the leap :-)
The whole premise is quite the leap.
If McAdoo is Don Shula because of who succeeded him then Daniel Jones is Joe Montana by the same logic.
McAdoo is a failed head coach who hasn't done a thing since he was fired here. And if he loved Mahomes so much then he failed at convincing those around him of the same thing.
Don't be too hard on McAdoo. The NYG war room had their wagons hitched up to Evan Engram. And it takes a really sharp football mind to see that he was always going to be a reach...
:-)
Hey if you sleep better at night as a Giants fan trying to find ways to give credit to Ben McAdoo of all people then by all means go ahead! Quite the hill to die on.
To be honest though I didn't follow this comment. Please explain again if you would...
Quote: /////////
Where I think Mara's words are a bit of a smokescreen is this in that DG's choices showed his judgment to be if not compromised then wholly unexplainable: ////////
And relative to the last following comment about Chris' wish lists...with all due respect unless you want to show me some linkage I would suggest you are simply guessing. As said, DG drives and if he was going down a bad path with picking a RB overall #2 or giving Solder a big deal and Chris Mara happened to be aligned, it doesn't mean Getts was just a patsy for what the Mara's wanted.
The smokescreen comment: Mara's saying the GM (and HC) driving the bus on personnel, ok fine, but if family (Chris) is in DG's ear because DG is also 'family' by virtue of owing a big part of his career to Mara loyalty to him, then DG's judgment is compromised by virtue of those ties and their wishes. Unexplainable would mean, per board consensus here, the SB pick to short up Eli, etc.
Guessing, of course; I certainly don't <know> and Jints Central (funny how, now that FMiC no longer here, bw doesn't even bother to use the term! Ha!) certainly operates behind a curtain. As to Solder, I'd guess that was all or mostly Gettleman, cuz focusing for most part on the draft. Gettleman has been almost singularly abjectly failed when it comes to FAs. I'd been focusing on John's comment about his brother's cards inserted into the system on prospective picks.
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with you.
To be honest though I didn't follow this comment. Please explain again if you would...
Quote: /////////
Where I think Mara's words are a bit of a smokescreen is this in that DG's choices showed his judgment to be if not compromised then wholly unexplainable: ////////
And relative to the last following comment about Chris' wish lists...with all due respect unless you want to show me some linkage I would suggest you are simply guessing. As said, DG drives and if he was going down a bad path with picking a RB overall #2 or giving Solder a big deal and Chris Mara happened to be aligned, it doesn't mean Getts was just a patsy for what the Mara's wanted.
Sorry, was out dealing with messy markets. So, yes, compliment fully deserved, over a long and 'illustrious' body of work! (:
The smokescreen comment: Mara's saying the GM (and HC) driving the bus on personnel, ok fine, but if family (Chris) is in DG's ear because DG is also 'family' by virtue of owing a big part of his career to Mara loyalty to him, then DG's judgment is compromised by virtue of those ties and their wishes. Unexplainable would mean, per board consensus here, the SB pick to short up Eli, etc.
Guessing, of course; I certainly don't <know> and Jints Central (funny how, now that FMiC no longer here, bw doesn't even bother to use the term! Ha!) certainly operates behind a curtain. As to Solder, I'd guess that was all or mostly Gettleman, cuz focusing for most part on the draft. Gettleman has been almost singularly abjectly failed when it comes to FAs. I'd been focusing on John's comment about his brother's cards inserted into the system on prospective picks.
Not logical. So Gettleman gets the job and, because he is family, follows mandate orders on Eli in 2018. But somehow he reverts against the family in 2019 and picks Jones? Stop with the conspiracy theories...they have no substance.
Gettleman is a simple moron and he had numerous opportunities to take this bad roster and turn it around and he failed. He was an egotistical blowhard who thought he was the smartest GM ever when he got the job in late 2017.
He did his poor evaluation on Eli in early 2018 and came to a conclusion he was a good enough QB to keep, so he told the Mara's that and they probably were relieved. Mistake
He knew had had to get some help on the OL. So once again he uses his usual poor evaluation skills and pays Solder and Omameh a ton of money to come in and stabilize things. Mistakes.
He has the #2 overall pick and he uses his poor roster building skills and lack of positional awareness and decides RB Saquon is the guy. Just like McCaffrey was his guy a year earlier in Carolina. Simply awful uses of high draft capital. Mistakes.
He completely misses the rebuild that was needed in 2018 so he starts down that path in 2019. Realizing he has to make up for lost time he uses, wait for it...wait for it...his poor evaluation skills and drafts Jones and drafts too early at that because he panicked. Mistake.
Gettleman has been a failure, not because he has tried to satisfy or compromise the wishes of others, but because he simply has poor player evaluation and poor roster building skills.
Resume Dave and his defenders will counter that with his successes which there are some...but they are few and far between. And some of those successes come with hitches like landing Leonard Williams but not being able to execute a reasonable contract, or drafting a good Tackle in Thomas but realizing the other OTs are gaining Pro Bowl or All-Pro nods, or finding Gates as an UDFA but then overestimating the competency of the rest of the interior OL this offseason.
Getts is gone...and things will get better. And it won't matter that Chris Mara is around because if the new GM has competent player eval and roster building skills, the family will fall in line or become irrelevant.