How many different head coaches and OCs and poor OL can a rookie QB take? Despite your thoughts on his performance or ceiling, this kid has been crushed. And for those truly familiar with his OL and WRs at Duke, the giants OL and talent is like all-pro level.
Just a thought for the masses.
The Giants falling in love with him is the greatest thing that will ever happen to him professionally. He's set for life and got 3 years of NFL starts to prove himself
Jones would have been gone at #10 to the Broncos or #14 to the Dolphins.
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He'd have like $20m fewer dollars and would bave been benched halfway through his 2nd year (think Drew Lock $ and career path)
The Giants falling in love with him is the greatest thing that will ever happen to him professionally. He's set for life and got 3 years of NFL starts to prove himself
Jones would have been gone at #10 to the Broncos or #14 to the Dolphins.
There is not a shred of evidence thus is true. But there are many that did not have a first round grade on him.
Davis Mills and David Carr.
Both out performed DJ this year.
He played decently when he played this year. We have seen what a train wreck at QB looks like and Jones is better. Jones biggest problem is that he has been injury prone and is missing games. DJ's performance did not directly lead to any losses this year except the Rams game a week after his concussion. Does he elevate those around him? probably not.
Jones will be in training camp if he is healthy. Hopefully with some decent competition to push him. Let the best QB win.
Daniel Jones is to Eli Manning as Oshane Ximines is to Lawrence Taylor.
He played decently when he played this year. We have seen what a train wreck at QB looks like and Jones is better. Jones biggest problem is that he has been injury prone and is missing games. DJ's performance did not directly lead to any losses this year except the Rams game a week after his concussion. Does he elevate those around him? probably not.
Jones will be in training camp if he is healthy. Hopefully with some decent competition to push him. Let the best QB win.
I think this is fair.
If the Giants could get anything of value in return for DJ - they should do it...but I doubt they can.
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He'd have like $20m fewer dollars and would bave been benched halfway through his 2nd year (think Drew Lock $ and career path)
The Giants falling in love with him is the greatest thing that will ever happen to him professionally. He's set for life and got 3 years of NFL starts to prove himself
Jones would have been gone at #10 to the Broncos or #14 to the Dolphins.
Not sure how many times this has to be discussed that these teams did not have Jones lined up to be taken before #17. We have had several threads over the past year going through this including reports out of the Denver war room.
Gettleman simply fell for whatever disinformation and rumors that were circling on draft day, panicked and pulled Jones all the way up to #6.
And really what difference does it make anyway at this point? Nobody should be praising the Jones QB evaluation whether he was taken #6, #10, #14, #17 or even 2nd round for that matter. The guy that chose him just lost his job and likely the same fate will fall on Jones.
I mean - it totally could have...but is it conceivable that the Mara inner circle have been eyeing this kid as the next Eli for years and were in DG's ear about making sure he didn't slip through their fingers?
idk - but it wouldn't shock me.
Set his QB skill level to the side, Jones can't stay on the field, that's a problem to me
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Hasn't Herbert had like 6 different OCs? And some terrible lines?
Ummm. No. While he is a promising QB, he has stud WRs and a stud rb.
Can we limit response to informed, factually accurate and intelligent responses please?
You specifically mentioned coaches, than you chastise someone for correctly pointing out that in 2 years, Herbert has had 2 HC's and 2 OC's.
If you want an honest discussion, maybe you should start having one.
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In comment 15552163 an_idol_mind said:
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some of the instability is on Jones' shoulders. It's not like he's been a lone bright star in the offense.
Did you watch that last 6 games???? They were shit without him!!!
With Jones, we averaged 18.4 PPG over his 11 games.
That would be good for 27th in the league.
In other words, with Jones we were still horrible. Just a little less.
Using some logic, if Jones supporting cast was raised from absolutely awful to average, what would the team have averaged? I think any reasonable person would have to agree that that number would have gone up somewhat significantly. You cannot just leave that out and you can't just ignore how precipitously the performance of the Offense fell once he was gone.
People love to point to Burrow(cue the outraged responses "how dare you compare Jones to Burrow) but Burrow has Mixon and most importantly, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. The Bengals did give up a lot of sacks, but they also use a lot more 7 step drops and Burrow throws a lot more deep passes. This works for them because of those receivers. The Giants trotted out Golladay who was awful, a bit of Sheppard and Toney and then Slayton (awful) and the practice squad guys. The difference is immense. One group is supremely talented and makes things happen on a regular basis(you could even argue that they are who you have to game plan against) The other group leaves everything on the table and is in all actuality a detriment to the Offense. How many more points would the Giants have scored if they had receivers making plays and running 65 yards for scores. Exactly how many times did that happen for the Giants this year?
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In comment 15552147 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Hasn't Herbert had like 6 different OCs? And some terrible lines?
Ummm. No. While he is a promising QB, he has stud WRs and a stud rb.
Can we limit response to informed, factually accurate and intelligent responses please?
The Bengals line is worse than the Giants. They’ve given up 57 sacks. They are absolute garbage.
Jones has the #2 pick at RB and a $72mm WR and a better line.
Just sayin.
How to prove you are obtuse without saying it... Just sayin
People love to point to Burrow(cue the outraged responses "how dare you compare Jones to Burrow) but Burrow has Mixon and most importantly, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. The Bengals did give up a lot of sacks, but they also use a lot more 7 step drops and Burrow throws a lot more deep passes. This works for them because of those receivers. The Giants trotted out Golladay who was awful, a bit of Sheppard and Toney and then Slayton (awful) and the practice squad guys. The difference is immense. One group is supremely talented and makes things happen on a regular basis(you could even argue that they are who you have to game plan against) The other group leaves everything on the table and is in all actuality a detriment to the Offense. How many more points would the Giants have scored if they had receivers making plays and running 65 yards for scores. Exactly how many times did that happen for the Giants this year?
As ever, the case for Daniel Jones is based almost entirely on speculation and wishful thinking.
Maybe Burrow's receivers go 65 yards because Burrow throws accurately and on time so they catch the ball in a position to run?
You know what, it doesn't matter. Comparing Jones to Burrow or Herbert is absurd. He's never been as good and he's never going to be as good.
But he didn't.
At this point, it doesn't matter.
No one - I mean no one - gets off the kind of start DJ did and turns it around in the same organization....NO ONE.
If DJ stays - you can't expect anything to be different next year.
The best thing for both parties is to go their separate ways.
What does he think Jones can be?
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People love to point to Burrow(cue the outraged responses "how dare you compare Jones to Burrow) but Burrow has Mixon and most importantly, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. The Bengals did give up a lot of sacks, but they also use a lot more 7 step drops and Burrow throws a lot more deep passes. This works for them because of those receivers. The Giants trotted out Golladay who was awful, a bit of Sheppard and Toney and then Slayton (awful) and the practice squad guys. The difference is immense. One group is supremely talented and makes things happen on a regular basis(you could even argue that they are who you have to game plan against) The other group leaves everything on the table and is in all actuality a detriment to the Offense. How many more points would the Giants have scored if they had receivers making plays and running 65 yards for scores. Exactly how many times did that happen for the Giants this year?
As ever, the case for Daniel Jones is based almost entirely on speculation and wishful thinking.
Maybe Burrow's receivers go 65 yards because Burrow throws accurately and on time so they catch the ball in a position to run?
You know what, it doesn't matter. Comparing Jones to Burrow or Herbert is absurd. He's never been as good and he's never going to be as good.
You know what, no I watched significant parts of 12 Bengal games this year and his receivers make a hell of a lot of plays, they are special and every pro personnel guy in the league will tell you that. I also did not compare Jones to Burrow I compared his supporting cast because supporting casts mean something, they really do and the one on the Giants is f...ing horrible. Why is it so hard to admit that when discussing the QB of the team1
He also picked, Thomas, McKinney and Ojulari and brought in Williams, Bradberry and Martinez, so?
You know that thing about answering questions with questions? have a great day AJR!
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Hasn't Herbert had like 6 different OCs? And some terrible lines?
Ummm. No. While he is a promising QB, he has stud WRs and a stud rb.
Can we limit response to informed, factually accurate and intelligent responses please?
You guys want to hang crepe for poor ol' Dan go ahead, but his thoroughgoing mediocrity is one of the reasons for his situation with coaches. j
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If the supporting cast is so bad, why do you think the same person who picked those players was somehow right on Jones and he’s just a product of a bad situation?
He also picked, Thomas, McKinney and Ojulari and brought in Williams, Bradberry and Martinez, so?
So what?
Need a lot more than that crew to win consistently in the NFL...a hell of a lot more.
With Jones, we averaged 18.4 PPG over his 11 games.
That would be good for 27th in the league.
In other words, with Jones we were still horrible. Just a little less.
Using some logic, if Jones supporting cast was raised from absolutely awful to average, what would the team have averaged? I think any reasonable person would have to agree that that number would have gone up somewhat significantly. You cannot just leave that out and you can't just ignore how precipitously the performance of the Offense fell once he was gone.
People love to point to Burrow(cue the outraged responses "how dare you compare Jones to Burrow) but Burrow has Mixon and most importantly, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. The Bengals did give up a lot of sacks, but they also use a lot more 7 step drops and Burrow throws a lot more deep passes. This works for them because of those receivers. The Giants trotted out Golladay who was awful, a bit of Sheppard and Toney and then Slayton (awful) and the practice squad guys. The difference is immense. One group is supremely talented and makes things happen on a regular basis(you could even argue that they are who you have to game plan against) The other group leaves everything on the table and is in all actuality a detriment to the Offense. How many more points would the Giants have scored if they had receivers making plays and running 65 yards for scores. Exactly how many times did that happen for the Giants this year?
I agree the offense was worse when Jones went out. Glennon and Fromm looked incapable and poorly coached. We went from bad to worse. Not sure why you want to hang your hat on that as some key data point, but to each their own.
If I could boil your argument down to one sentence, I think it sounds like this: Jones has been a victim of bad luck since he arrived and that has hurt his chances to be a top QB.
Is that about right?
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If the supporting cast is so bad, why do you think the same person who picked those players was somehow right on Jones and he’s just a product of a bad situation?
He also picked, Thomas, McKinney and Ojulari and brought in Williams, Bradberry and Martinez, so?
So 6 of what, over 80 player transactions?
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In comment 15552654 ajr2456 said:
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If the supporting cast is so bad, why do you think the same person who picked those players was somehow right on Jones and he’s just a product of a bad situation?
He also picked, Thomas, McKinney and Ojulari and brought in Williams, Bradberry and Martinez, so?
So what?
Need a lot more than that crew to win consistently in the NFL...a hell of a lot more.
That sure as hell doesn't make him a good GM, but it is an answer to how can we think that the guy that put the terrible supporting cast together could have been right in picking Jones. You do need eons more than that and Gettleman was a disaster!
Nobody ever cries for, say Darius Slayton, who has made a lot less money than Jones. Nobody says, "what if Slayton had a better QB and better surrounding talent".
On the playing time thing, about 15 years ago I was talking to a QB I knew from college. He was a good college QB who was probably not going to make it in the league, but he kicked around some camps/practice squad/roster fringes for a few years. He was realistic about his ability and moved on to have regular jobs, but I remember him saying "I wish I could've gotten 6 weeks, just to see if I could do it." He never got practice reps, never got game time, never really got a chance. And again, he probably wasn't good enough, but he, and dozens of other QBs never had much of an opportunity.
Anyway - point is not necessarily that those guys are good. But some of them might be. Point is that there are lots of QBs - skilled guys with good college careers - who would do anything to have the 3 years of chances that Jones has had here.
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In comment 15552330 bw in dc said:
With Jones, we averaged 18.4 PPG over his 11 games.
That would be good for 27th in the league.
In other words, with Jones we were still horrible. Just a little less.
Using some logic, if Jones supporting cast was raised from absolutely awful to average, what would the team have averaged? I think any reasonable person would have to agree that that number would have gone up somewhat significantly. You cannot just leave that out and you can't just ignore how precipitously the performance of the Offense fell once he was gone.
People love to point to Burrow(cue the outraged responses "how dare you compare Jones to Burrow) but Burrow has Mixon and most importantly, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. The Bengals did give up a lot of sacks, but they also use a lot more 7 step drops and Burrow throws a lot more deep passes. This works for them because of those receivers. The Giants trotted out Golladay who was awful, a bit of Sheppard and Toney and then Slayton (awful) and the practice squad guys. The difference is immense. One group is supremely talented and makes things happen on a regular basis(you could even argue that they are who you have to game plan against) The other group leaves everything on the table and is in all actuality a detriment to the Offense. How many more points would the Giants have scored if they had receivers making plays and running 65 yards for scores. Exactly how many times did that happen for the Giants this year?
I agree the offense was worse when Jones went out. Glennon and Fromm looked incapable and poorly coached. We went from bad to worse. Not sure why you want to hang your hat on that as some key data point, but to each their own.
If I could boil your argument down to one sentence, I think it sounds like this: Jones has been a victim of bad luck since he arrived and that has hurt his chances to be a top QB.
Is that about right?
I'm not hanging my hat on that, was just simply responding to your post that even with Jones they ranked 27th in scoring. As to your second point, yes what has gone on around Jones has certainly held back his progress. Supporting cast does mean a lot, i.e.. the Bengals. I still think he has a shot to be a good QB and like most things there is evidence to both to and fro on that, but it is far from over and if he is here next year I hope he plays great and becomes part of the solution.
Whatever he faced here an understandably tough situation. It needs to stop being talked about as some all time bad situation. There are countless QBs that showed tons more than DJ on equally bad teams.
They need to give more QBs more chances until they find someone that can look at least decent even in tough circumstances. If you don't have that QB you need to keep looking.
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In comment 15552683 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15552654 ajr2456 said:
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If the supporting cast is so bad, why do you think the same person who picked those players was somehow right on Jones and he’s just a product of a bad situation?
He also picked, Thomas, McKinney and Ojulari and brought in Williams, Bradberry and Martinez, so?
So what?
Need a lot more than that crew to win consistently in the NFL...a hell of a lot more.
That sure as hell doesn't make him a good GM, but it is an answer to how can we think that the guy that put the terrible supporting cast together could have been right in picking Jones. You do need eons more than that and Gettleman was a disaster!
Fair enough Walker. Percentages are rough enough for good GMs to find QBs...they become astronomical when you put Resume Dave at the helm.
But understand the blind squirrel theory :-)
The Giants need to rebuild and go for a young 2023 QB. The schedule might not help them with that though.
Whatever he faced here an understandably tough situation. It needs to stop being talked about as some all time bad situation. There are countless QBs that showed tons more than DJ on equally bad teams.
They need to give more QBs more chances until they find someone that can look at least decent even in tough circumstances. If you don't have that QB you need to keep looking.
Yep.
As you know, many comments that have lingered on with Jones being in a bad spot are hangover defensive positions posters took in prior years on Jones, DG or even Eli for that matter.
Tough to break out of that non-objective cycle :-)
Nobody ever cries for, say Darius Slayton, who has made a lot less money than Jones. Nobody says, "what if Slayton had a better QB and better surrounding talent".
On the playing time thing, about 15 years ago I was talking to a QB I knew from college. He was a good college QB who was probably not going to make it in the league, but he kicked around some camps/practice squad/roster fringes for a few years. He was realistic about his ability and moved on to have regular jobs, but I remember him saying "I wish I could've gotten 6 weeks, just to see if I could do it." He never got practice reps, never got game time, never really got a chance. And again, he probably wasn't good enough, but he, and dozens of other QBs never had much of an opportunity.
Anyway - point is not necessarily that those guys are good. But some of them might be. Point is that there are lots of QBs - skilled guys with good college careers - who would do anything to have the 3 years of chances that Jones has had here.
Excellent post. Well said.
I always use the term force multiplier. I expect QBs, especially those taken in the lottery, to elevate the play of others. I think that's one of the main responsibilities in the job description.
Sure, you want to assemble as much talent as possible to help, but the limitations of the hard cap make it hard to have this football Xanadu that too many around here think Jones needs to really succeed.
I agree the offense was worse when Jones went out. Glennon and Fromm looked incapable and poorly coached. We went from bad to worse. Not sure why you want to hang your hat on that as some key data point, but to each their own.
If I could boil your argument down to one sentence, I think it sounds like this: Jones has been a victim of bad luck since he arrived and that has hurt his chances to be a top QB.
Is that about right?
I'm not hanging my hat on that, was just simply responding to your post that even with Jones they ranked 27th in scoring. As to your second point, yes what has gone on around Jones has certainly held back his progress. Supporting cast does mean a lot, i.e.. the Bengals. I still think he has a shot to be a good QB and like most things there is evidence to both to and fro on that, but it is far from over and if he is here next year I hope he plays great and becomes part of the solution.
What are Jones responsibilities to the team as a franchise QB? Are they simply to be 1/11th of the offense or to be THE key player on offense to make the most plays?
Whatever he faced here an understandably tough situation. It needs to stop being talked about as some all time bad situation. There are countless QBs that showed tons more than DJ on equally bad teams.
They need to give more QBs more chances until they find someone that can look at least decent even in tough circumstances. If you don't have that QB you need to keep looking.
Fromm was compared Tom Brady a few weeks ago
To quote Terps, we didn't want to make things uncomfortable for our QB on scholarship.
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get on the field and play well. He's an NFL player making millions of dollars to play a game. He's a QB with athletic ability, he could figure out how to make many more plays than he has, but he is overwhelmed that's his problem. For all the talk of his intangibles in that category he just doesn't have it between the ears and that is abundantly clear.
Whatever he faced here an understandably tough situation. It needs to stop being talked about as some all time bad situation. There are countless QBs that showed tons more than DJ on equally bad teams.
They need to give more QBs more chances until they find someone that can look at least decent even in tough circumstances. If you don't have that QB you need to keep looking.
Fromm was compared Tom Brady a few weeks ago
From what...like one or two posters looking for clicks?
Good to see exaggerating for effect hasn't died on BBI now that Fmic is stuck in that escape hatch...
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send a 6th round pick and grab Minshew to put on the QB depth chart this past season?
To quote Terps, we didn't want to make things uncomfortable for our QB on scholarship.
Just crazy ass-backwards thinking if indeed true. Some competition, a better quality backup even if Jones had won the job. And if Jones failed and they didn't see a QB in the 2022 draft they liked, Minshew could have been the stopgap for a year or so.
just an awful front office...
I wrote a post about QBs who never got a chance - caveated the shit out of it because of douchbags like this - and made the point that there is a world where Tom Brady never became more than a spot starter because of his draft status.
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In comment 15552751 bw in dc said:
I agree the offense was worse when Jones went out. Glennon and Fromm looked incapable and poorly coached. We went from bad to worse. Not sure why you want to hang your hat on that as some key data point, but to each their own.
If I could boil your argument down to one sentence, I think it sounds like this: Jones has been a victim of bad luck since he arrived and that has hurt his chances to be a top QB.
Is that about right?
I'm not hanging my hat on that, was just simply responding to your post that even with Jones they ranked 27th in scoring. As to your second point, yes what has gone on around Jones has certainly held back his progress. Supporting cast does mean a lot, i.e.. the Bengals. I still think he has a shot to be a good QB and like most things there is evidence to both to and fro on that, but it is far from over and if he is here next year I hope he plays great and becomes part of the solution.
What are Jones responsibilities to the team as a franchise QB? Are they simply to be 1/11th of the offense or to be THE key player on offense to make the most plays?
No if Jones is going to be someone we are truly happy about having as the QB for the Giants he has to be a guy who makes plays and steps up. Just being 1/11 is a place holder and that means you have to have everything around him be very good to great to have any real success. I like to look at young players and see if they can do things that stand out. Does the ball jump off his bat, can he make wow scoring plays in hoops, etc. I've seen jones do that from time to time, a great throw, his legs, toughness, making plays when it counts.
Have I seen that enough to make me come on here and say anywhere near for sure that he is the solution, no I haven't, but I see it sometimes and I see it through a really bad situation. I don't think people give enough credence to the switch in Offenses after his rookie year with no off season. The injuries to the skill guys in camp this year and the horrific play around him in 2022. I also think Garrett was a disaster, he did look like a different guy with Shurmur albeit the turnovers back then. I just would like to see Daniel Jones in a half way decent situation. They should bring in someone else this year and if Jones can't beat him out or if he does and plays poorly, that's it. It is likely due to the massive rebuild they need on Offense that next year won't be a good situation either and then it will simply be too late, He will have run his course in NY. I just think there is still upside there and there is no reason to simply cast him off. We can all agree that things have been very bad in and around the team for a while now.
Just crazy ass-backwards thinking if indeed true. Some competition, a better quality backup even if Jones had won the job. And if Jones failed and they didn't see a QB in the 2022 draft they liked, Minshew could have been the stopgap for a year or so.
just an awful front office...
When the news broke that the Eagle made that deal, a few of us chimed in that it was a steal, and a much better option than anything we had at back-up QB.
Naturally, the usual suspects slammed the idea for a variety of reasons - (1) Minshew wasn't that good, (2) 6th pick was too important to give up, (3) Jones doesn't need the distraction, (4) Judge doesn't need the distraction, (5) etc.
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Just crazy ass-backwards thinking if indeed true. Some competition, a better quality backup even if Jones had won the job. And if Jones failed and they didn't see a QB in the 2022 draft they liked, Minshew could have been the stopgap for a year or so.
just an awful front office...
When the news broke that the Eagle made that deal, a few of us chimed in that it was a steal, and a much better option than anything we had at back-up QB.
Naturally, the usual suspects slammed the idea for a variety of reasons - (1) Minshew wasn't that good, (2) 6th pick was too important to give up, (3) Jones doesn't need the distraction, (4) Judge doesn't need the distraction, (5) etc.
Yes I remember. And, as you know, it's all there in the archives.
unless they've been altered...
:-)
Well Judge didn't get that shot. And I'm sure he regrets agreeing that Jones might be good enough.
Daniel Jones = Coach Killer.
Well Judge didn't get that shot. And I'm sure he regrets agreeing that Jones might be good enough.
Daniel Jones = Coach Killer.
Producer, Judge was hired after Jones's rookie year when a whole host of people were thrilled about the Giants having Daniel Jones. I am absolutely certain that any coaching candidate that interviewed in the winter of 2020 who said that they didn't want to have Daniel Jones as the QB would have been shown the door.
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It was with the understanding that he give Jones a chance but he would have a shot to reboot with a new QB if it didn't work out.
Well Judge didn't get that shot. And I'm sure he regrets agreeing that Jones might be good enough.
Daniel Jones = Coach Killer.
Producer, Judge was hired after Jones's rookie year when a whole host of people were thrilled about the Giants having Daniel Jones. I am absolutely certain that any coaching candidate that interviewed in the winter of 2020 who said that they didn't want to have Daniel Jones as the QB would have been shown the door.
Jones' rookie year was a mixed bag, though I agree, a cause for some optimism.
But nothing about it said slam dunk. And any coach will want to go down with *their guy*.