Nobody wants to admit it but this all started with the Eli/McAdoo fiasco back in 2017. There was a big QB draft coming up, Eli was clearly done, they had to decide decide what to do, McAdoo wanted to evaluate the entire QB system and see who was worth keeping and who could stay on as a back up. People got way too sentimental over keeping the Eli Manning streak going at a point where it didn't matter in the season and the overall health of the team should have been prioritized over the QB. Giants fans chanted for Eli and said "He's our QB" week 17 against the Dolphins despite leading them to a 3-13 year and a bad offense. The Giants backpedaled from bad press and totally overcorrected by claiming they were going all in and building around Eli.
They drafted Barkley and made a bunch of other dumb decisions and ran Barkley into the ground. Later they were forced to admit that Eli was actually done and had been for awhile. But by that point they spent another two years deluding themselves. By the time they were finally ready to accept that they were in a bad QB year and were stuck with Daniel Jones as the best option and they were stuck seeing if he could pan out and missed out on grabbing someone like Herbert the year after. Team building wise they've been stuck trying to correct the mistake of building for a window closing with Eli instead of a more comprehensive rebuild from the trenches up and made splashy desperation moves for guys like Solder that didn't pan out. Coaching wise they have been a bit of mess, not that it really matters because as bad as some of those coaches have been, the team sucks and would lose anyways regardless because of where they were at.
Now it's the 2022 season coming up and Giants have no coach, they aren't very talented, there is a tough decision to make with Barkley, they don't have a legit QB of the future and it's another bad QB draft, their GM is gone so even though he sucked they have zero continuity at all anymore. So now 5 years later they are pretty much at square one and look like one of the worst situations in the league and are will have to start a rebuild that should have started 4 years ago. Instead it would start with little money.
Neither was the case with Manning. If the team was in decent shape, he could have and would have been just fine. His contract was up, the team was not in decent shape, and he got out with all his marbles and his body intact- he's a smart guy.
They needed to reboot. Probably super hard to see that after winning 2 SBs
The dan graziano 2013 article helped me realize that.
Foundational rot eats away at Giants - ( New Window )
I do kind of wonder what would have happened if Coughlin had decided to ride off into the sunset after winning the second Super Bowl. I'm curious as to how the coaching search would have gone after that. Then again, we probably wind up with Perry Fewell as head coach and wind up in the same situation we're in now.
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He was still a high level player that was let down by his team and management, much like we’re currently seeing with Daniel Jones.
This. There are two reasons championship qb's are forced to retire- their arms go (See Roethlisberger, Unitas and Rivers) or they start getting hurt and missing games (See Montana, Bradshaw) or some combination of the two. Otherwise, these guys can keep playing at a high level for a long time (See Rodgers who just turned 38 and Brady).
Neither was the case with Manning. If the team was in decent shape, he could have and would have been just fine. His contract was up, the team was not in decent shape, and he got out with all his marbles and his body intact- he's a smart guy.
I have a hard time buying the "Eli was done" argument because he was playing at a very high level during Coughlin's last year and only dropped off immensely when McAdoo took over the team. While some players do just lose it overnight, it's a little too convenient that he suddenly looked done once the guy running one of the worst offensive systems in history took over.
Plus some equally poor free agent choices have reinforced that.
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the team either did not recognize how poor the OL/DL was or they were too afraid to make the hard choices.
They needed to reboot. Probably super hard to see that after winning 2 SBs
The dan graziano 2013 article helped me realize that.
Foundational rot eats away at Giants - ( New Window )
I do kind of wonder what would have happened if Coughlin had decided to ride off into the sunset after winning the second Super Bowl. I'm curious as to how the coaching search would have gone after that. Then again, we probably wind up with Perry Fewell as head coach and wind up in the same situation we're in now.
We had the worst rushing team in the nfl and won the SB. the writing was on the wall with that OL.
We can argue about drafting Barkley at #2, but based on his first season under the new HC and OC, he looked like a great first round pick. At the time or in hindsight, was there a QB worthy of the same pick?
Was Jones picked too early? Sure, but how far down down to do you want to trade back to still get your QB? Or maybe they get him with their 2nd pick or maybe they pick Haskins.
As it has turned out for the past 40 years (since LT), the Giants would have been better off trading down or out of the 1st round than with the pick they took. In fact, they probably would be better off if they trade their first round pick for two or three 2nd round picks every year.
And what was the point anyway if you are putting in Geno Smith? At least put Webb in since he was an unknown. Geno's ability was already established.
But the whole Eli saga was misrepresented by the media and fans bought into it. And now we have revisionist history. McAdoo did not try to end Eli's starting streak. In fact, if it hadn't been for the streak, McAdoo likely would have told Eli they were going to start Webb (after Smith started the road game). But McAdoo wanted Eli to start and play the first half of all of the remaining games. It was Eli who chose not to do that and benched himself.
Eli was and is as much to blame for that mess as McAdoo, who was trying to do what was best for the future of the organization. I am a big fan of Eli, but in that instance he took his ball and went home rather than do what was best for the Giants.
Even the fiasco itself was caused by the inability of the owners to make difficult decisions. McAdoo got approval from both Reese and Mara to bench Eli, but when fans revolted, Mara got cold feet, and threw McAdoo and Reese under a moving bus.
Then, after having agreed to bench Eli, Mara doubled down and decided to ride Eli to a return to glory, an idea so foolish, it should be highlighted in business books. Again, this is an indication of the owners' suite not having a concrete plan, which would have led to the situation we are in, whether the Eli kerfuffle happened or not.
We can only hope that Mara has learned, and/or that Steve Tisch has decided to take a more prominent role in the direction of the franchise. I like the moves they've made since the season has ended, but I'm wary of a return to normal.
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In comment 15552471 giantBCP said:
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He was still a high level player that was let down by his team and management, much like we’re currently seeing with Daniel Jones.
This. There are two reasons championship qb's are forced to retire- their arms go (See Roethlisberger, Unitas and Rivers) or they start getting hurt and missing games (See Montana, Bradshaw) or some combination of the two. Otherwise, these guys can keep playing at a high level for a long time (See Rodgers who just turned 38 and Brady).
Neither was the case with Manning. If the team was in decent shape, he could have and would have been just fine. His contract was up, the team was not in decent shape, and he got out with all his marbles and his body intact- he's a smart guy.
I have a hard time buying the "Eli was done" argument because he was playing at a very high level during Coughlin's last year and only dropped off immensely when McAdoo took over the team. While some players do just lose it overnight, it's a little too convenient that he suddenly looked done once the guy running one of the worst offensive systems in history took over.
Eli had one of his best seasons ever statistically with McAdoo as OC though.
But the whole Eli saga was misrepresented by the media and fans bought into it. And now we have revisionist history. McAdoo did not try to end Eli's starting streak. In fact, if it hadn't been for the streak, McAdoo likely would have told Eli they were going to start Webb (after Smith started the road game). But McAdoo wanted Eli to start and play the first half of all of the remaining games. It was Eli who chose not to do that and benched himself.
Eli was and is as much to blame for that mess as McAdoo, who was trying to do what was best for the future of the organization. I am a big fan of Eli, but in that instance he took his ball and went home rather than do what was best for the Giants.
And they still stink lol
That was the moment to reset the coaching staff - instead, we got a series of half measures
1) Coughlin forced to hire Macadoo
2) Coughlin fired, Macadoo promoted, but with Coughlin's staff
3) With ownership's blessing, Macadoo enacts plan to move on from eli - ownership folds due to fan pressure
4) Both Reese and Macadoo fired - opportunity to reset. Instead of doing due diligence, go with Ernie Accorsi's suggestion of Gettlemen - who gets the job the job telling owners exactly what they want to hear: we can win with Eli, just needs more at the skill positions.
5) Hire and fire Shurmur. Hire and fire Judge, Gettlemen gone.
6) Do we repeat ourselves? The GM search feels different now, which is encouraging.
Keeping Eli too long/trying to build around him did require a better OL. But that did NOT logically necessitate Nate Solder being drastically overpaid. That was a compounding error not part of the same error. We could have chose a different option.
That didn’t require us to draft an RB in the 2nd round (and I loved SB but never liked a RB that high). Again, independent compounding error.
Wanting to movie on from Eli did not necessitate drafting DJ at 6. (And I still hold out hope for this kid.) But we had other options.
Wanting a WR didn’t mean we had to break the bank for Golladay. We could have gone another, cheaper direction.
So yes, the MacAdoo/Eli fiasco may have been the start of the slide, but there have been many places we steered right into this skid.
Let's be real. This team stinks and there are very few players on the current roster would start for another team, let alone be worth keeping for the long term. The OL is a mess, the QB is a question mark, the RB is a ghost of his former self, the WRs are constantly injured, the TEs are underwhelming, the DL can't stop the run or rush the passer, the LBs are slow and the DBs are overpaid. The Giants are not a few players away from competing.
The next GM needs to have long term plan and be able to tell the Maras uncomfortable truths about the roster that they don't want to hear. I hope they are willing to let the GM make ruthless decisions when it comes to the roster construction b/c we are going nowhere with the current players. I expect this to be a very painful offseason and a rough 2022, but if they move with conviction then 2023 team might be much better position to compete.
Look at the 2011 Super Bowl. Eli carried that team on his back, the offensive line was on fumes, and the defensive line was aging. We had a massive need to retools the line with the 2012-2014 drafts. That didn't happen.
The Giants have had 10 years of lousy offensive lines, and no real rushers. Imagine if we had drafted Aaron Donald instead of OBJ, and Quenton Nelson (as part of a trade down with the Jets) instead of Barkley. That's the way the FO needed to go, and they didn't.
The problem wasn't Eli, the problem was trying to do a quick fix FOR Eli, instead of a rebuild AROUND Eli! Because we didn't fix the lines after 2011, Eli's prime years were wasted. What Gettelman SHOULD have done was to have Eli as a caretaker QB, and do what he said he was going to do (rebuild the lines).
Even if you replaced Eli in 2017 or 2018, nothing would have worked, because the real problems weren't addressed. The same situation happened this year, when the Giants went on a spending spree to validate Jones. We got offensive weapons instead of keeping the DT we lost, and getting offensive line depth. Failure to fix the lines guaranteed a losing season.
Gettleman's announced plan wasn't wrong, nor was Judge's plan that he gave his first press conference. The problem was that neither followed through. The new GM needs to solve this problem.
This is a great comment, and it's what happened. Here's how I see it:
1. The Giants roster peaked in 2007/08. At that point, they had a great group and were just waiting for the QB play to improve. It did.
2. Over the next few years, the roster started to get worse, and simultaneously, Manning raised his level of play. So it looked as if the Giants were a consistently solid team, but the source of success changed from a "well rounded group with OK QB play" to a "QB carries team" situation.
3. By 2011, it was a pretty mediocre roster with a very bad offensive line, all things considered. But Manning was playing at his best. By the playoffs, Manning was the best QB in football, or at least on par with Rodgers and Brady. He carried a mediocre group to that Super Bowl. It was a remarkable performance. That SF game was unlike any performance I've ever seen.
4. Then Manning's long decline phase began in earnest, perhaps accelerated by bad offensive line play. It being goodwas a fairly gentle slope for a few years, but the team around him continued to get worse because of poor drafting, injuries, and general aging.
5. The 2016 group made the playoffs in spite of bad offensive line play because all of Reese's free agent pickups hit that year, and Beckham did enough to paper over the glaring flaws on the offense.
6. But in 2017, the free agent group got older, Beckham got hurt, Manning got a little worse, and the overall rot was made clear.
Given how poor the roster was at the end of 2017, "blow it up" was the correct solution. They needed to stockpile draft picks and start rebuilding the lines. What the Colts ended up doing was exactly right. "Adding a top notch RB" was basically the *least* useful thing that could be done given the circumstances. But that's what they did, and they're still paying for the miscalculation now.
It would have been painful and bad PR, but moving on from Eli a year early would have been the best plan for the long term health of the Giants.
I'll also further that by stating that at some point Eli's contract was an albatross. I would say even at the end of Reese's tenure, they were limited fiancially because Eli wasn't playing as well as his contract indicated he should be. He had a contract that said he was a player who would erase deficiency around him and he didn't.
The Giants also had Eli and kept pushing to stay competitive while they rebuilt and never actually rebuilt.
Eli got to walk out of here with his head held high as maybe the greatest Giants in organization history when you take into account on field production and off field representation of the organization, but his end definitely set them back.
And that's ok, but Now it's been too long for that to be an excuse anymore.
It would have been painful and bad PR, but moving on from Eli a year early would have been the best plan for the long term health of the Giants.
Agree, but I get it. I was really upset when they moved on from Simms after an 11-5 season.
Still believe if that receiver they had acquired from Denver. (Jackson)? had not dropped that pass in finale against Dallas for division title, Giants with a bye and home field make some noise in the playoffs.
For many here Eli is their Simms, totally get it.
Eli had one of his best seasons ever statistically with McAdoo as OC though.
He did, and there were DEFINITELY things McAdoo did that made Eli a better QB, primarily his footwork. McAdoo made that a priority and it paid off.
That said I think a lot of the offensive success was due to TC's input. We saw what happened to McAdoo's offense when left to his own devices. Now you can point to Eli's decline, but I have a hard time believing he declined that quickly from 2015 to 2016.
And aside from offensive production, just look at the formations and plays they ran. With TC, McAdoo's offense was far more diverse in the number of formations they used, personnel packages, and moving WR's around the formation.
Now they’ve spent 3 years trying to “evaluate” Jones instead of having focus on the lines.
Hopefully a new GM can get the organization’s head out of its collective asses and focus on foundation. It’s necessary
I'd go back even further. Despite having an OL that had aged in dog years, Reese drafts David Wilson with Mitchell Schwartz and Cordy Glenn on the board.
Look at the 2011 Super Bowl. Eli carried that team on his back, the offensive line was on fumes, and the defensive line was aging. We had a massive need to retools the line with the 2012-2014 drafts. That didn't happen.
The Giants have had 10 years of lousy offensive lines, and no real rushers. Imagine if we had drafted Aaron Donald instead of OBJ, and Quenton Nelson (as part of a trade down with the Jets) instead of Barkley. That's the way the FO needed to go, and they didn't.
The problem wasn't Eli, the problem was trying to do a quick fix FOR Eli, instead of a rebuild AROUND Eli! Because we didn't fix the lines after 2011, Eli's prime years were wasted. What Gettelman SHOULD have done was to have Eli as a caretaker QB, and do what he said he was going to do (rebuild the lines).
Even if you replaced Eli in 2017 or 2018, nothing would have worked, because the real problems weren't addressed. The same situation happened this year, when the Giants went on a spending spree to validate Jones. We got offensive weapons instead of keeping the DT we lost, and getting offensive line depth. Failure to fix the lines guaranteed a losing season.
Gettleman's announced plan wasn't wrong, nor was Judge's plan that he gave his first press conference. The problem was that neither followed through. The new GM needs to solve this problem.
+1
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The problem goes way back to Jerry Reese and the FO. All the way back to 2012.
Look at the 2011 Super Bowl. Eli carried that team on his back, the offensive line was on fumes, and the defensive line was aging. We had a massive need to retools the line with the 2012-2014 drafts. That didn't happen.
The Giants have had 10 years of lousy offensive lines, and no real rushers. Imagine if we had drafted Aaron Donald instead of OBJ, and Quenton Nelson (as part of a trade down with the Jets) instead of Barkley. That's the way the FO needed to go, and they didn't.
The problem wasn't Eli, the problem was trying to do a quick fix FOR Eli, instead of a rebuild AROUND Eli! Because we didn't fix the lines after 2011, Eli's prime years were wasted. What Gettelman SHOULD have done was to have Eli as a caretaker QB, and do what he said he was going to do (rebuild the lines).
Even if you replaced Eli in 2017 or 2018, nothing would have worked, because the real problems weren't addressed. The same situation happened this year, when the Giants went on a spending spree to validate Jones. We got offensive weapons instead of keeping the DT we lost, and getting offensive line depth. Failure to fix the lines guaranteed a losing season.
Gettleman's announced plan wasn't wrong, nor was Judge's plan that he gave his first press conference. The problem was that neither followed through. The new GM needs to solve this problem.
+1
exactly
False
The Giants inability to hit on the OL they have drafted is the single biggest contributor to the downfall of the franchise since 2012, IMO...
The next is inability to continue to draft edge rushers..
The owners, GM, front office, coaching all became warped that they had that special something it took to keep winning Super Bowls. And they didn't, and a whole lot of teams started passing them by in evaluating players, roster building, and how you win in the NFL.
Even when they have seen their issues and mistakes in the the years since, they seem to kind of panic and want to just desperately fix the hole in front of them versus think strategically and make the better decision for the longer term.
The Giants have become near irrelevant.
I really enjoyed that last Super Bowl season though...
Reese was the scapegoat for the embarrassing uproar, but honestly deserved to go at the same time as Coughlin beause he failed to restock the OL and general talent after the SB. McAdoo was fired, above all else, for being a douchebag.
I also don't think it was a fundamental problem to try to build with Eli. I think the problem was making that decision but never fixing the OL. The last few seasons, including his 2 years with McAdoo as OC, he played behind some of the worst OLs not just in the league, but in my experience of 40 years as a fan of the game. The one constant throught the last decade has been TERRIBLE, like historically bad, OL play.
The ame timeline coincides with thinking drafting Barkley would salvage Eli's last run. But, again, they did so without an OL to speak of. And, if it's at all possible, the OL is worse now than 4 years ago, even if all healthy.
So, yes, I think the problems in this organization pre-date Gettleman and Judge. But, I think they also pre-date McAdoo. Now, none of our HC selections post-Coughlin did much to improve things. But, they are not sole culprits.
When they got up 23-0 on Dallas and only won because Dez Bryant's hand landed out of bounds in the endzone my concern started.
It really became obvious when they played Cincinnati in Week 11 and Eli was under siege all game and Andy Dalton torched the Giants defense and they lost 31-13
But who cares I guess.
Look at the 2011 Super Bowl. Eli carried that team on his back, the offensive line was on fumes, and the defensive line was aging. We had a massive need to retools the line with the 2012-2014 drafts. That didn't happen.
The Giants have had 10 years of lousy offensive lines, and no real rushers. Imagine if we had drafted Aaron Donald instead of OBJ, and Quenton Nelson (as part of a trade down with the Jets) instead of Barkley. That's the way the FO needed to go, and they didn't.
The problem wasn't Eli, the problem was trying to do a quick fix FOR Eli, instead of a rebuild AROUND Eli! Because we didn't fix the lines after 2011, Eli's prime years were wasted. What Gettelman SHOULD have done was to have Eli as a caretaker QB, and do what he said he was going to do (rebuild the lines).
Even if you replaced Eli in 2017 or 2018, nothing would have worked, because the real problems weren't addressed. The same situation happened this year, when the Giants went on a spending spree to validate Jones. We got offensive weapons instead of keeping the DT we lost, and getting offensive line depth. Failure to fix the lines guaranteed a losing season.
Gettleman's announced plan wasn't wrong, nor was Judge's plan that he gave his first press conference. The problem was that neither followed through. The new GM needs to solve this problem.
Yes
our line needed serious rebuilding in 2012 and we never put the right investments into it.
3rd - 7th 2012-2017: mccant mosely herman hart bisnowaty
1st and 2nd 2012-2017: westburg pugh flowers
teams swing and miss all the time but WTF. we obviously don't know how to scout OL. not 1 2nd contract to either of these guys.
Next I also blame the fans who freaked out over Eli's benching and the stupid meaningless streak. The over reaction and backlash freaked out John Mara. He actually said "we did not think the fans would be so emotional". So, this shaped some of the decisions for the next two years.
If John Mara was a better leader, he would have made the right decision. Moving on from Eli was the right move but they went about it the wrong way.
Finally, hiring Gettleman was the nail in the coffin.
Did anyone want to see why we had in Glennon after week 3 of no TDs from Jones or few TD? Did anyone want to see jones benched even after he got his bell rung in the cowboys game? Instead he cleared protocol on day before, but when it comes to benching Eli macado was seen as as this awesome thing to play a Jets retread.
But, it is bigger than Eli. The problem really started when the decision was made by ownership to let go of Coughlin and keep Eli. They should have let Eli go then as well. Not because he was done, but to not force a QB on a coach and a general manager who didn't really want Eli. The other option (a better option in my opinion) would have been to let Reese go.
Reese was the scapegoat for the embarrassing uproar, but honestly deserved to go at the same time as Coughlin beause he failed to restock the OL and general talent after the SB. McAdoo was fired, above all else, for being a douchebag.
I also don't think it was a fundamental problem to try to build with Eli. I think the problem was making that decision but never fixing the OL. The last few seasons, including his 2 years with McAdoo as OC, he played behind some of the worst OLs not just in the league, but in my experience of 40 years as a fan of the game. The one constant throught the last decade has been TERRIBLE, like historically bad, OL play.
The ame timeline coincides with thinking drafting Barkley would salvage Eli's last run. But, again, they did so without an OL to speak of. And, if it's at all possible, the OL is worse now than 4 years ago, even if all healthy.
So, yes, I think the problems in this organization pre-date Gettleman and Judge. But, I think they also pre-date McAdoo. Now, none of our HC selections post-Coughlin did much to improve things. But, they are not sole culprits.
This, along with the previous posts with a similar train of thought.