First- Does anyone know where he is in the civil legal process? Is this likely to drag on and has NFL taken any disciplinary action?
Second- I realize he would have a $35 million cap hit, the Giants are up against the cap and would need to unload/restructure a lot of salary, and that he does not fit the Mara's character ideal, but why not trade for him? A "buy low" opportunity. Trade #7, one of the 3rd rd picks, and any player but Thomas from the current roster for Watson. Could turn things around quickly.
Exactly. The Dolphins were reported going to give up at least 3 firsts if not more IF he resolved his civil disputes. And that is still with potential criminal charges looming.
Buy low is definitely not happening. The Texans played it in a fashion that screams the price will be high.
I’d do it if his legal issues were officially dead but until that happens he’s off limits. I don’t think any team trades for him until then.
Wowzers
- expend your top draft capital
- stretch your cap issues even further
- make this guy the face of the franchise
With that said, if they would take Jones and Saquon in an even up deal....sure
:-)
The talk about Mariota was largely as competition for DJ, but also with the thought that he would be a good backup.
As an aside, I am happy that you are back. You do not know me, but I have enjoyed most of your posts over the years, the whole being reasonable about things approach. You were smart to take a break as the negative nellies were crazily enjoying themselves.
Ok, thanks
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about bringing in Mariota. Was that as a starter, a vier for the starting position or a back-up? He’s not been all that much after his first two years, iirc..
The talk about Mariota was largely as competition for DJ, but also with the thought that he would be a good backup.
As an aside, I am happy that you are back. You do not know me, but I have enjoyed most of your posts over the years, the whole being reasonable about things approach. You were smart to take a break as the negative nellies were crazily enjoying themselves.
Interesting perspective since many of those posters were right ... again.
Then the team nosdives by October and BB56 disappears until January because he doesnt want to take the heat for being wrong - again.
If I knew he was cleared to play for 2022? All legal issues washed away? Fuck yes I’d trade 3 first rounders for Watson. Let me throw in some contracts to make the salaries work?? In a heartbeat. We’d have our star qb for the next decade. We’d still have all the picks after round 1 to use and most next year. And cap room because I’m sending a big contract or two back.
I know I know rebuilding and all that. Gimme the qb, thanks in advance.
I know they've taken some players with character concerns before, but not at QB. I don't see it happening.
And Flores wanted Watson - which calls Flores into question. How can Flores want this guy?
What were/are the thoughts on here about the 33 year-old Russell Wilson and the steep expenditure of draft capital possibly required in addition to taking on that contract? I honestly don’t mean it as a loaded question though it can easily be construed as such. Just curious what the majority thought
But I just can’t see how Watson comes back from this.
Louis CK is still cancelled
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Highly unlikely they're taking back big contracts. Watson is a loser and not worth the attention paid let alone the draft assets and huge contract. I'll stick to that and pass.
What were/are the thoughts on here about the 33 year-old Russell Wilson and the steep expenditure of draft capital possibly required in addition to taking on that contract? I honestly don’t mean it as a loaded question though it can easily be construed as such. Just curious what the majority thought
I am 33 so this is the worst Giants stretch of my life time.
I also know enough about Giants history that when they did the same thing in 1967 to get Fran Tarkenton nothing changed. They won a few more games, that's it.
This team isn't just a Russell Wilson away from winning it all. I don't think he is the sauce that can cover up the sins of the last 10 years.
The Texans need to move on from him. Given all the risk and PR fallout for the team trading for him, they cannot expect to get 3 1's for him. Fact is they have not gotten that to date if they are asking for that. The longer this goes, the worse things get for the Texans, and they are still paying him his contract.
A first, third, roster player and salary relief may start to look good to them.
Does having a legitimate starting QB with character issues present more problems for the Maras than what they put in the field the last 5 years?
The greatest Giant of all time had character and legal issues too and I doubt anyone here regrets his being on the team.
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about bringing in Mariota. Was that as a starter, a vier for the starting position or a back-up? He’s not been all that much after his first two years, iirc..
The talk about Mariota was largely as competition for DJ, but also with the thought that he would be a good backup.
As an aside, I am happy that you are back. You do not know me, but I have enjoyed most of your posts over the years, the whole being reasonable about things approach. You were smart to take a break as the negative nellies were crazily enjoying themselves.
Well if we need to classify folks with derogatory group names. I guess we can say the Negative Nellies were right about the situation and the Happy Sunshine Band was wrong (again).
If we're talking prostitution, I'm very interested in a great 26 year old QB who also likes paying for hand jobs.
If we're talking sexual assault, I'd like to see him go through the criminal justice system.
Footbal-wise this is not just a win now move. He's 26. This is a win now and win later move. We can argue about price, but he is an extremely valuable player.
But I just can’t see how Watson comes back from this.
Louis CK is still cancelled
And yet we all still get bleary-eyed when someone mentions LT...
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The hope would be bridge starter until they find Jones' replacement, and/or backup.
Ok, thanks
You think draft pick this year?
Yep, I have judged him before all the facts have come out in court. I read up a lot on this, I won't debate all my reasons, too nuanced.
Also, over the years, I have learned to trust JonC on character issues with players. He has a nose for it.
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Highly unlikely they're taking back big contracts. Watson is a loser and not worth the attention paid let alone the draft assets and huge contract. I'll stick to that and pass.
What were/are the thoughts on here about the 33 year-old Russell Wilson and the steep expenditure of draft capital possibly required in addition to taking on that contract? I honestly don’t mean it as a loaded question though it can easily be construed as such. Just curious what the majority thought
As for Watson, it was split. My take is Wilson is far better than Jones, but I would not trade for him. He will be 34 next year, which is not ancient for a QB, but for one for whom speed and quickness are assets, it is a concern. Between age and some struggles after his injury, I am leery.
But, most importantly, I would view this as more for a win now scenario. If they trade at least one first this year, that is one less top tier OL we are taking. Without a vastly improved OL and overall roster improvement, Wilson will account for how many more wins? One or two? It will likely take at least a year or two to improve to the point where we can realistically compete. He's only getting older.
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In comment 15552988 JonC said:
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Highly unlikely they're taking back big contracts. Watson is a loser and not worth the attention paid let alone the draft assets and huge contract. I'll stick to that and pass.
What were/are the thoughts on here about the 33 year-old Russell Wilson and the steep expenditure of draft capital possibly required in addition to taking on that contract? I honestly don’t mean it as a loaded question though it can easily be construed as such. Just curious what the majority thought
Bruce - welcome back. I, personally, am glad to "see" you.
As for Watson, it was split. My take is Wilson is far better than Jones, but I would not trade for him. He will be 34 next year, which is not ancient for a QB, but for one for whom speed and quickness are assets, it is a concern. Between age and some struggles after his injury, I am leery.
But, most importantly, I would view this as more for a win now scenario. If they trade at least one first this year, that is one less top tier OL we are taking. Without a vastly improved OL and overall roster improvement, Wilson will account for how many more wins? One or two? It will likely take at least a year or two to improve to the point where we can realistically compete. He's only getting older.
My personal preference if we look to bring in someone is Minshew. He is going into year 4 of a 4 year rookie deal. I don't know if Philly would deal with us and I know it's a trade soe say we should have made this past offseason. But, I would deal for him and even extend him. I think he is vastly underrated and from day 1 would be serious competition for the starting spot. At the very worst, I think he is oe of the best backups in the league. He produced in Jax and look at his lone start this year, even if against the Jets.
If we're talking prostitution, I'm very interested in a great 26 year old QB who also likes paying for hand jobs.
If we're talking sexual assault, I'd like to see him go through the criminal justice system.
Footbal-wise this is not just a win now move. He's 26. This is a win now and win later move. We can argue about price, but he is an extremely valuable player.
Jerry - The problem is sexual assault. The women involved were masseurs, not prostitutes. Just to be clear sexual assault doesn’t mean rape. But there are a lot of complaints. A LOT. A summer of 2020 SI article has a lot of details and if you’re curious you should look it up. But it’s long and only covers cases within the Houston metro police district. There are likely other cases brewing outside that jurisdiction.
JonC is correct. It’s entirely possible Watson never sees a field again, although that would be on the more pessimistic range of outcomes.
A loser finds his way into 20+ sexual assault charges and civil suits. No way to spin it.
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In comment 15552932 Big Blue '56 said:
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about bringing in Mariota. Was that as a starter, a vier for the starting position or a back-up? He’s not been all that much after his first two years, iirc..
The talk about Mariota was largely as competition for DJ, but also with the thought that he would be a good backup.
As an aside, I am happy that you are back. You do not know me, but I have enjoyed most of your posts over the years, the whole being reasonable about things approach. You were smart to take a break as the negative nellies were crazily enjoying themselves.
Well if we need to classify folks with derogatory group names. I guess we can say the Negative Nellies were right about the situation and the Happy Sunshine Band was wrong (again).
You can be negative about what you think is happening and discuss it in a reasonable way like many on here do. It’s the people that take it to a hateful manner that I do not appreciate. But that is what social media has done.
There is no reason to take this risk when in 2023 there is a real shot for an up-and-coming QB.
In year 3 the Giants could be in the same place with Watson as they are now. SO then what can you look back on? You've lived off of backup QB's and that's your plan?
This going after Watson is like long-term investments you've made that have failed for the past 10 years and now you took most of your savings to the casino in hopes of winning it all back.
There is no reason to take this risk when in 2023 there is a real shot for an up-and-coming QB.
In year 3 the Giants could be in the same place with Watson as they are now. SO then what can you look back on? You've lived off of backup QB's and that's your plan?
This going after Watson is like long-term investments you've made that have failed for the past 10 years and now you took most of your savings to the casino in hopes of winning it all back.
If they went after Wilson at 33 yo I would agree with you but Watson is 27 and in his prime. This would be a great pick up if the civil legal issues can be settled. Bryce Young is not as sure of an NFL star as Watson is and as bad as Giants have been they have not drafted first yet.
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Completely off-base.
There is no reason to take this risk when in 2023 there is a real shot for an up-and-coming QB.
In year 3 the Giants could be in the same place with Watson as they are now. SO then what can you look back on? You've lived off of backup QB's and that's your plan?
This going after Watson is like long-term investments you've made that have failed for the past 10 years and now you took most of your savings to the casino in hopes of winning it all back.
If they went after Wilson at 33 yo I would agree with you but Watson is 27 and in his prime. This would be a great pick up if the civil legal issues can be settled. Bryce Young is not as sure of an NFL star as Watson is and as bad as Giants have been they have not drafted first yet.
Even if legal issues are “cleared up” would you want this character on your squad, uber talented or not? Where there’s fire…
You're wrong, this is the way to go!! This way we can get fucked out of 3 1st rd picks with no recompense when he goes to prison. OP for GM!! Awesome sauce all around!!
You would make Dave Gettleman proud...
You're kidding, right? The team was in turmoil in 2020. Despite the team's down year, Watson's overall record as a starter is 28-25 with two seasons in the playoffs. He completes 68% of his passes, has 104 TDs/36 INTs, an outstanding 8.3 YPA and his overall QBR is nearly 70.
He's been brilliant since he stepped on the field as a rookie.
If you can't see he greatness, you can't see. Jones is nowhere near this level of class.
Alas, his legal issues are a huge obstacle for any team interested in acquiring him.
This is the one area I can actually comment on, as a therapist. This is likely a majorly disordered person. Repeat offenders of that magnitude or pretty sick people - questionable conscience. That decision making pattern is really, really, an outlier. You think this person will “grow up” or make “better decisions”? That really tends not to happen with axis II diagnosis like I presume he has.
Stay the F away.
This is a civil case for $.
I guess you are happy rooting for this brand of Giant football?
In comment 15554744 JesseS said:
This is the one area I can actually comment on, as a therapist. This is likely a majorly disordered person. Repeat offenders of that magnitude or pretty sick people - questionable conscience. That decision making pattern is really, really, an outlier. You think this person will “grow up” or make “better decisions”? That really tends not to happen with axis II diagnosis like I presume he has.
Stay the F away.
This is a civil case for $.
I guess you are happy rooting for this brand of Giant football?
In comment 15554744 JesseS said:
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Some people are playing is bananas. I don’t even think I could root for the giants if they traded for him. Is it 22 charges? He’s not getting happy endings. He was sexually assaulting women.
This is the one area I can actually comment on, as a therapist. This is likely a majorly disordered person. Repeat offenders of that magnitude or pretty sick people - questionable conscience. That decision making pattern is really, really, an outlier. You think this person will “grow up” or make “better decisions”? That really tends not to happen with axis II diagnosis like I presume he has.
Stay the F away.
I wouldn’t even know where to start with this - The either/or dichotomy or the civil comments, so I won’t.
We can have different views on things. Enjoy.
Watson was playing at an mvp level that year if I recall correctly. It’s just the rest of the team was worse than we were this year
The Texans need to move on from him. Given all the risk and PR fallout for the team trading for him, they cannot expect to get 3 1's for him. Fact is they have not gotten that to date if they are asking for that. The longer this goes, the worse things get for the Texans, and they are still paying him his contract.
A first, third, roster player and salary relief may start to look good to them.
Does having a legitimate starting QB with character issues present more problems for the Maras than what they put in the field the last 5 years?
The greatest Giant of all time had character and legal issues too and I doubt anyone here regrets his being on the team.
The thing is to consider with Watson is that you don't give a fuck about who he potentially assaulted.
And you don't give a fuck about risk no matter how many years you have to wait for the outcome to be decided.
And you don't give a fuck about the many fans that will stop supporting them. You see you will always support them. But you don't give a fuck about business while the Giants have to. They would be losing fans / money while gambling everything will turn out okay.
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Completely off-base.
There is no reason to take this risk when in 2023 there is a real shot for an up-and-coming QB.
In year 3 the Giants could be in the same place with Watson as they are now. SO then what can you look back on? You've lived off of backup QB's and that's your plan?
This going after Watson is like long-term investments you've made that have failed for the past 10 years and now you took most of your savings to the casino in hopes of winning it all back.
If they went after Wilson at 33 yo I would agree with you but Watson is 27 and in his prime. This would be a great pick up if the civil legal issues can be settled. Bryce Young is not as sure of an NFL star as Watson is and as bad as Giants have been they have not drafted first yet.
But until the civil issues are settled you can't make this trade, right? You just said "IF" -- so are you going to stand by that comment?
If not, then what you just posted to me is complete bullshit, right?
And "IF" you are going to wait for the decision, and if he is cleared then you aren't going to get him cheap. And if the case goes badly, you would've lost many fans and potentially waited a long time for the outcome.
By the way, are you married? Do you have daughters? Nieces?
1) timing of a potential trade. yes price would go up when this case is settled. So Giants or any other team would have to do a risk arbitrage analysis of how long they think it will take to settle. Make no mistake, this player has tremendous value and is worth making that analysis.Do you think he will get the Ray Rice treatment and never play again? Or would you prefer he ends up on the Eagles, Lions, Panthers, Redskins or another team in need of a QB?
2) losing more fans by employing Watson at QB and increasing chance of winning or staying in QB hell and losing? Fans want to win and yes they want to root for the players themselves and not just the team. This team needs to improve to keep fans and let's examine the allegations
3) Allegations are just that. He has denied them. Innocent until proven guilty or in a civil case until preponderance of evidence shows otherwise. If he is such a bad guy, and his actions so bad, and your daughter, my nieces (whoever else you alluded to) needs to be protected from him, then why hasn't he been charged criminally? Why is it that a politically motivated (lost bid for Mayor) and financially successful (Sued BP over the oil contamination of the Gulf) is the person leading the case against him? Perhaps because there is a lot of publicity and a hefty settlement for him to benefit from? Or because he is trying to protect his community? If it were the latter, why wouldn't he be pressing harder for criminal charges?
In comment 15555368 giantstock said:
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In comment 15553663 giantstock said:
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Completely off-base.
There is no reason to take this risk when in 2023 there is a real shot for an up-and-coming QB.
In year 3 the Giants could be in the same place with Watson as they are now. SO then what can you look back on? You've lived off of backup QB's and that's your plan?
This going after Watson is like long-term investments you've made that have failed for the past 10 years and now you took most of your savings to the casino in hopes of winning it all back.
If they went after Wilson at 33 yo I would agree with you but Watson is 27 and in his prime. This would be a great pick up if the civil legal issues can be settled. Bryce Young is not as sure of an NFL star as Watson is and as bad as Giants have been they have not drafted first yet.
But until the civil issues are settled you can't make this trade, right? You just said "IF" -- so are you going to stand by that comment?
If not, then what you just posted to me is complete bullshit, right?
And "IF" you are going to wait for the decision, and if he is cleared then you aren't going to get him cheap. And if the case goes badly, you would've lost many fans and potentially waited a long time for the outcome.
By the way, are you married? Do you have daughters? Nieces?
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Got a second chance for what he did
But I just can’t see how Watson comes back from this.
Louis CK is still cancelled
And yet we all still get bleary-eyed when someone mentions LT...
Think you might mean teary-eyed ... which is also a bit much.
LT was the best defensive football player I (and most others here) have ever seen play the game.
Simultaneously, he's proven to be quite an asshole with horrible judgment away from the game.
IMO he is both things.
1) timing of a potential trade. yes price would go up when this case is settled. So Giants or any other team would have to do a risk arbitrage analysis of how long they think it will take to settle. Make no mistake, this player has tremendous value and is worth making that analysis.Do you think he will get the Ray Rice treatment and never play again? Or would you prefer he ends up on the Eagles, Lions, Panthers, Redskins or another team in need of a QB?
2) losing more fans by employing Watson at QB and increasing chance of winning or staying in QB hell and losing? Fans want to win and yes they want to root for the players themselves and not just the team. This team needs to improve to keep fans and let's examine the allegations
3) Allegations are just that. He has denied them. Innocent until proven guilty or in a civil case until preponderance of evidence shows otherwise. If he is such a bad guy, and his actions so bad, and your daughter, my nieces (whoever else you alluded to) needs to be protected from him, then why hasn't he been charged criminally? Why is it that a politically motivated (lost bid for Mayor) and financially successful (Sued BP over the oil contamination of the Gulf) is the person leading the case against him? Perhaps because there is a lot of publicity and a hefty settlement for him to benefit from? Or because he is trying to protect his community? If it were the latter, why wouldn't he be pressing harder for criminal charges?
In comment 15555368 giantstock said:
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In comment 15553961 Spirit of '86 said:
Point 1-- is you are a football team and you are going to trust the possibly the next 3-4 years of team's future in a court of law? And you think that makes sense?
Point 2-- You have a path toward getting a potential elite QB. And that is trading either the number 5 pick or number 7 pick for another 1st rounder in 2023. You have a simple path for the future. Fans will give you 2022.
Point 3-- Innocent until proven guilty has a nice naive ring to it; but he isn't playing football. Can you guarantee he will and he will be innocent? SO while you chant "Innocent until proven guilty," he isn't playing.
Point 4-- You aren't increasing your chances of winning if he isn't playing. When do you expect to start making the playoffs if you trade for Watson?
Point 5-- You should never do imo what you are implying here- and that is make a move because you are scared what other teams might do. The Giants need to worry about themselves. They struggle enough with that, correct?
Point 6- In terms of "control," are you suggesting that if the Giants trade one of their top picks to get a 1st round pick in 2023 thus having two 1st round picks in 2023, that their situation would look hopeless for 2024 and beyond? It wouldn't, right? S you have a shot to build enthusiasm for 2023, if you do as I suggest just by trading 1 2022 pick, right? This is something you can control. Why do you want to lose control vs throwing a prayer?
Point 7—Logical risk analysis would show that if you follow the path I suggest you aren’t going to lose any fans win or lose unless the GM you and Coach you hire are equivalent to the worst GM the Giants ever had and another awful Coach. If that is the case, then you really think Watson is going to make a difference for Giants becoming an eventual big time contender if the Giants are that incompetent?
Point 8—Logical risk analysis will show if you follow the path I suggested is that you will lose little-to-no- fans. Your way the chips are all-in and if you don’t win you’ve already lost quite a few fans just for that, and then you’re going to lose the same type of fans for your continual incompetence. What business man in their right mind thinks that’s smart?
Point 9—You mention the Lions and “fear’ that they get him? So part of your pov is “fear.” Does Mara even know who the Lions are? Yet you show no fear of the disaster if it doesn’t work?
Bottom-line is there is no reason to be this desperate when in 2023 you have a plan. All Giants fans will recognize they don’t have to win in 2022. Get a new GM and a new coach you even have 2023 as an experimental year. – You lose no fans. And now you have your young QB. Now the organization is being praised. And the owner is making tons more money because he didn't lose any fans to start and he now has a great base for the future.
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Fair enough. I guess in a weird way it is safer to just go the draft route and take the slow game approach. I just want sure thing investments which as we all know do not exist, unless maybe you're in congress ;)