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Man the Giants were Bad this year.

gidiefor : Mod : 1/15/2022 6:12 pm
Bru-tally

Sorry - I cannot let this debate in my mind continue any longer - Jones is just not a good NFL quarterback

He is stiff, limited at best, more often than not does not make good decisions, and a calamity waiting to happen.


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RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Producer : 1/15/2022 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


But he wasn't touched by the hand of God.
RE: RE: Christian-who are your 5 starters on offense!  
Sammo85 : 1/15/2022 9:07 pm : link
In comment 15554751 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15554684 Dave on the UWS said:


Quote:


Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.



I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.

I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.

I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.


Booker is going to want a raise. They’ll keep Lawrence being on his last contract year but I don’t see a second contract for him.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Mike in NY : 1/15/2022 9:08 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
Seeing the elite qb play today  
lax counsel : 1/15/2022 9:14 pm : link
Should tell you all you need to know about Jones. He’s a paint by numbers robot in the pocket, fast in a straight line but not mobile in the pocket. You need a burrow, Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, in this era of NFL football to be a serious threat. The qb position is as important a ever in this league.

Jones isn’t a legit threat in this league.
Watching these playoff games realy show me  
Chef : 1/15/2022 9:15 pm : link
just how fucking awful the Giants are...
RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
lax counsel : 1/15/2022 9:17 pm : link
In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.



It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Go Terps : 1/15/2022 9:20 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


They had Eli. Drafting a QB, any QB, was off the table.
RE: RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Mike in NY : 1/15/2022 9:23 pm : link
In comment 15554783 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.




It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.


In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.
We are so far from being one of these  
Ike#88 : 1/15/2022 9:28 pm : link
playoff teams. No firepower, bad schemes, a below average QB. It is depressing.
The discussions about Jones may be academic  
Ron from Ninerland : 1/15/2022 9:33 pm : link
Up until the middle of this year I thought Jones was the guy. Under Shurmer he put up great numbers and made good decisions. Even this year he had his moments. He carried the team on his back to that OT win against the Saints, who'd be in the playoffs if not for Jones. This year not only did he have to endure a bad OL, he's had to endure 2 OC's both of them bad, a different group of receivers every week, most of them bad.

None of that matters now. We have to assume Jones is not physically reliable. There's a real possibility that he's out of football, but even if the Giants' medical staff clear him, the same staff that cleared Wilson less than a year after stenosis surgery , can he be depended on ? He's had other injuries that have kept him out multiple weeks. Unless the neck resolves 100%, which I don't think is possible he's one good hit away from another season ender.

I don't know what they do. Drafting a QB onto a team that's otherwise this bad isn't going to help. As for Russel Wilson or someone of that caliber , even if the could get him, how do they pay him ?.

I like Jones. For his sake I hope he develops into a productive QB for somebody else, but it ain't happening here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
lax counsel : 1/15/2022 9:48 pm : link
In comment 15554796 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15554783 lax counsel said:


Quote:


In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.




It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.



In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.


Agree that he was not sure fire blue chip, but I guess that’s the draft you have to be able to evaluate potential, based on current talent. Bad teams miss on great players all the time, so not a surprise that the giants, browns, and Jets misses on Allen. Unfortunately the Browns and the Jets are the type of company the Giants keep right now.
Offense is a hot mess  
BigBlueBuff : 1/15/2022 10:15 pm : link
About the only reasonably decent pieces were Thomas, Rudolph, and Penny. I suppose Peart can make a decent backup guard and Golladay has value because of his contract. I am not ever going to count on Toney, he just strikes me as another soft gadget receiver who is going to be hurt 50% of the potential snaps. May as well trade him for a bag of kicking balls.
RE: It was a brutally bad year...  
ron mexico : 1/15/2022 10:56 pm : link
In comment 15554507 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
Really like Mara's description, each week thinking we'd hit bottom but finding out there was a new low.

Don't know if I feel confident determining who is and isn't a good player based on the coaching/scheme/supporting cast each was playing with. Heck, hidden or under-reported injuries players play through alone can mask their ability (see Thomas' rookie year).

relevant meme



Personally I'm hoping that our new GM will put into place a new program to improve the talent brought through the door, and that includes the coaches. I'm hoping the coaches can improve how that talent executes on the field.

With that hope it seems ridiculous to throw out all of our players, even the ones who have seemingly shown little over the past few years. Let the new people running the new football program decide who they want to keep and how to use them.
Rock Bottom  
Jimmy Googs : 1/15/2022 11:38 pm : link
time to start getting better...
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Bill in UT : 1/16/2022 12:04 am : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


During that draft season people were saying that Allen had a great arm but couldn't hit the side of a barn. And enough people thought that to make him the 4th QB picked, so a lot of pros had it wrong.
Watching Herbert and Josh Allen  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 8:09 am : link
I am completely dumb founded that the Giants could have drafted those 2 and passed on both of them. Those 2 are like mobile big Dan Marinos. Yea but lets revisit Ben Macadoo benching Eli for the 100th time. Dave Gettleman drafted Daniel Jones!
RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 8:16 am : link
In comment 15554788 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



They had Eli. Drafting a QB, any QB, was off the table.


Simply not true. Or at least according to what Shurmuer said publicly. Part of drafting Barkley was having an impact player that can help a struggling coach win games. That is the reason Shurmur gave for not taking Darnold since the thought was he would sit behind Eli.
RE: Watching Herbert and Josh Allen  
Mike in NY : 1/16/2022 8:21 am : link
In comment 15555140 Debaser said:
Quote:
I am completely dumb founded that the Giants could have drafted those 2 and passed on both of them. Those 2 are like mobile big Dan Marinos. Yea but lets revisit Ben Macadoo benching Eli for the 100th time. Dave Gettleman drafted Daniel Jones!


I can see passing up Allen who some had as 4th or 5th best QB at #2 overall. If you were not convinced he could make the leap in competition after having a sub 57% completion percentage in 2016 and 2017 and regressing to sub 7.0 Y/A and AY/A while playing in MWC (not exactly B1G or SEC level) that is an awful big gamble on size, mobility, and arm strength. Herbert is a tougher question because you would have taken him the year prior if he had been available and his Senior year was even better. I probably would have seen what the market was, but if I was not getting back the value for someone who was 6th overall the prior year (definitely would want at least a 1st Round pick and maybe a young OL) I can understand the decision to say let’s try and build around Jones rather than taking Herbert and potentially turning him into David Carr.
RE: RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Mike in NY : 1/16/2022 8:24 am : link
In comment 15555144 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15554788 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



They had Eli. Drafting a QB, any QB, was off the table.



Simply not true. Or at least according to what Shurmuer said publicly. Part of drafting Barkley was having an impact player that can help a struggling coach win games. That is the reason Shurmur gave for not taking Darnold since the thought was he would sit behind Eli.


DG had drafted CMac in Carolina and he was not wrong with that Darnold evaluation. A number of respected people had said that he needed to start the year behind a vet. Jets through him into fire Week 1 and it backfired.
Move forward  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/16/2022 8:29 am : link
Too much emphasis on the QB. You have at best a small handful of QB's that fall into the "elite" category and they will still need a real good team around them to win a SB.

Then you have a bigger handful of very good QB's who will need a even better team around them and have a couple things (the team) that they are elite at.

Then you have a biggest handful of solid QB's who will need a team around them that is elite at a few more things (the team) that they are elite at.

Where the next Giants QB falls is TBD. But one thing history has shown is it will take a lot more than just that position to be solved. I am hoping the Giants can get at least a "very good" one next time with the caveat they don't shrivel in big games and the playoffs. Follow history. At least half the QB's winning SB's were not elite, especially considering where they were in their development when they one a SB.
I came away from the games last night  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 1/16/2022 8:48 am : link
not as much thinking about Jones as much as the Garrett/Kitchens offensive scheme was the worst ever produced on an NFL field. Carr missed plenty of plays (including the last one) but they had guys open.

Burrow had Mixon for a positive safety-vale gain nearly every pass play. Watching Uzomah down the field time after time was shocking - the Giants couldn't even scheme a guy open or get Evan Engram on a seam route down the field!
You guys talk about Garrett too much  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 9:02 am : link
and offensive schemes too for that matter. you realy think execution has nothing to do with it. Like if the Giants borrowed the Bills playbook anything would change?
RE: I came away from the games last night  
FStubbs : 1/16/2022 9:04 am : link
In comment 15555161 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
Quote:
not as much thinking about Jones as much as the Garrett/Kitchens offensive scheme was the worst ever produced on an NFL field. Carr missed plenty of plays (including the last one) but they had guys open.

Burrow had Mixon for a positive safety-vale gain nearly every pass play. Watching Uzomah down the field time after time was shocking - the Giants couldn't even scheme a guy open or get Evan Engram on a seam route down the field!


The scheme was bad, but so were the players.
RE: You guys talk about Garrett too much  
FStubbs : 1/16/2022 9:05 am : link
In comment 15555168 Debaser said:
Quote:
and offensive schemes too for that matter. you realy think execution has nothing to do with it. Like if the Giants borrowed the Bills playbook anything would change?


If we had the Bills playbook the QB would get sacked every other play. I think the players were worse than the scheme. I think it's part of the reason Judge and Garrett basically turtled up the offense.
RE: Move forward  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 9:07 am : link
In comment 15555155 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Too much emphasis on the QB. You have at best a small handful of QB's that fall into the "elite" category and they will still need a real good team around them to win a SB.

Then you have a bigger handful of very good QB's who will need a even better team around them and have a couple things (the team) that they are elite at.

Then you have a biggest handful of solid QB's who will need a team around them that is elite at a few more things (the team) that they are elite at.

Where the next Giants QB falls is TBD. But one thing history has shown is it will take a lot more than just that position to be solved. I am hoping the Giants can get at least a "very good" one next time with the caveat they don't shrivel in big games and the playoffs. Follow history. At least half the QB's winning SB's were not elite, especially considering where they were in their development when they one a SB.


I like how all these people rush to defend Gettleman for not taking Darnold. Perhaps but he was still a horrible GM.

I also like how all these people want to cut Jones all this slack for the oline and hurt players ; so doesn't Darnold get this? Panthers oline is horrible and Darnold played hurt.

Darnold at least was a top prospect and played well in college.
RE: Mike Tannanbaum  
FStubbs : 1/16/2022 9:08 am : link
In comment 15554696 joeinpa said:
Quote:
On Ranaan s podcast said enough pieces are in place to make the Giants an attractive job, and they should be able to win beginning next season

Just repeating what he said, so take it easy.


The Giants are almost assuredly going to be even worse in 2022, but with the caveat that the rebuild would have hopefully actually begun.
RE: RE: I came away from the games last night  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 1/16/2022 9:08 am : link
In comment 15555170 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 15555161 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:


Quote:


not as much thinking about Jones as much as the Garrett/Kitchens offensive scheme was the worst ever produced on an NFL field. Carr missed plenty of plays (including the last one) but they had guys open.

Burrow had Mixon for a positive safety-vale gain nearly every pass play. Watching Uzomah down the field time after time was shocking - the Giants couldn't even scheme a guy open or get Evan Engram on a seam route down the field!



The scheme was bad, but so were the players.


Agreed both things can be true. I hate that Dave Gettleman ... LOL
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
HomerJones45 : 1/16/2022 9:10 am : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
This. The guy always reminded me of Terry Bradshaw.
RE: Move forward  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 9:16 am : link
In comment 15555155 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Too much emphasis on the QB. You have at best a small handful of QB's that fall into the "elite" category and they will still need a real good team around them to win a SB.

Then you have a bigger handful of very good QB's who will need a even better team around them and have a couple things (the team) that they are elite at.

Then you have a biggest handful of solid QB's who will need a team around them that is elite at a few more things (the team) that they are elite at.

Where the next Giants QB falls is TBD. But one thing history has shown is it will take a lot more than just that position to be solved. I am hoping the Giants can get at least a "very good" one next time with the caveat they don't shrivel in big games and the playoffs. Follow history. At least half the QB's winning SB's were not elite, especially considering where they were in their development when they one a SB.


The Giants one 2 of them without any of those things. I doubt you would get many here to admit that Eli was an elite QB. Even though he was or just under that. Giants in 2007 and '11 were just a good team that hit their stride and their stride and their ceiling at the perfect time.
won*  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 9:17 am : link
.
It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
Reese's Pieces : 1/16/2022 9:17 am : link
My nephew live near Buffalo and by the end of his second year they had had enough of him and were ready to reach back into the draft.

In his second season he started every game and completed 59% of passes for 3000 yards (avg. 6.7 yards) and 20 TDs. He fumbled 13 times and, Tellingly, he was sacked 38 times and his QBR was 49.4.

In his third season it all changed, starting with being sacked only 26 times. He completed 69% of his passes (avg. 7.9 yards) for 4,500 yards and 37 TDs. He fumbled 9 times and his QBR was 76.6.

It's a mistake to be too impatient. A lot of times the difference between a winning QB and a losing QB are the people he has around him and his coach. The Giant made Manning look like a sandlot QB in his last two seasons.

Phil Simms was very luck to have made it to his 5th season with the Giants. He was plagued by injuries and indifferent play. The fans booed him without mercy.

Parcells replaced him with Scott Brunner after Simms came back from a surgical knee that took his 4th season, and that would have been it if Brunner had been halfway decent. Simms came off the bench to relieve Brunner and promptly had the thumb injury that ended that season.

When he returned for his 5th season, he started all the games and turned it around and was named to the pro-Bowl.

My assessment of Jones is that another year is needed to assess him.
RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 9:24 am : link
In comment 15555194 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
My nephew live near Buffalo and by the end of his second year they had had enough of him and were ready to reach back into the draft.

In his second season he started every game and completed 59% of passes for 3000 yards (avg. 6.7 yards) and 20 TDs. He fumbled 13 times and, Tellingly, he was sacked 38 times and his QBR was 49.4.

In his third season it all changed, starting with being sacked only 26 times. He completed 69% of his passes (avg. 7.9 yards) for 4,500 yards and 37 TDs. He fumbled 9 times and his QBR was 76.6.

It's a mistake to be too impatient. A lot of times the difference between a winning QB and a losing QB are the people he has around him and his coach. The Giant made Manning look like a sandlot QB in his last two seasons.

Phil Simms was very luck to have made it to his 5th season with the Giants. He was plagued by injuries and indifferent play. The fans booed him without mercy.

Parcells replaced him with Scott Brunner after Simms came back from a surgical knee that took his 4th season, and that would have been it if Brunner had been halfway decent. Simms came off the bench to relieve Brunner and promptly had the thumb injury that ended that season.

When he returned for his 5th season, he started all the games and turned it around and was named to the pro-Bowl.

My assessment of Jones is that another year is needed to assess him.


This bullcrap again. I was too young to remember early Simms but from my reading he started and won like 6 games in a row? He was rookie of the year. He had coach Walsh tell him he would make him a star if he came to play for him when he was at Morehead state.

None of those things apply to Jones.
Reeses Piece's  
arniefez : 1/16/2022 9:39 am : link
I was going to post something similar. I have a lot of friends in Buffalo and I watch most of their games.

Allen was really raw out of college and his accuracy was way below average. He took a lot of heat in Buffalo in the media and the fan base until his 3rd year. The coaching staff up there deserves tremendous credit for developing him into an elite QB. He had the talent and the instincts but none of the NFL QB technique. The last 2 years he's played at top 5 MVP NFL player. An incredible progression.

This is not an advertisement for the Giants GM & HC jobs. I have no idea who was the most important person in his development. I've just watched it unfold.

I saw Phil Simms mentioned  
arniefez : 1/16/2022 9:52 am : link
The only reason he's not in the HOF is because of the beating he took from 1979-1983. Phil Simms was an elite HOF talent from day one. The Giants didn't protect him and almost ruined his career.
RE: RE: And on what basis did you reach your “Damascus Moment” over DJ?  
SirLoinOfBeef : 1/16/2022 9:54 am : link
In comment 15554604 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15554495 plato said:


Quote:


Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.

I agree. He simply doesn't seem natural playing football.



Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.

Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.
That 2018 draft, for me, was not about the QBs.  
Matt M. : 1/16/2022 10:02 am : link
I think each of the top 4 QBs had enough warts to not take them. With Allen, it was accuracy above all else. At the time, I liked Barkley and the only other options I liked were Nelson or trading back in hopes Jackson was there. If Jackson wasn't available after a trade back, I have no clue who they should have picked. But, for me, that was plan B.

In hindsight, obviously a terrible move. But, I didn't think Barkley would be selected and we'd still have such a terrible OL. This is Gettleman's biggest failure, in my opinion. If he put a real OL out there, I don't think Barkley would be questioned as much.

As for Jones, I do think a better OL would also serve him. But, how much, I really don't know. He still has deficiencies when surveying the field, bird dogging receivers, pocket awareness, etc. I don't think he's terrible, but he is nowhere near a #6 pick and is not going to elevate a franchise. He needs a lot more around him to be better.
RE: RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
Reese's Pieces : 1/16/2022 10:53 am : link
In comment 15555199 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15555194 Reese's Pieces said:


Quote:


My nephew live near Buffalo and by the end of his second year they had had enough of him and were ready to reach back into the draft.

In his second season he started every game and completed 59% of passes for 3000 yards (avg. 6.7 yards) and 20 TDs. He fumbled 13 times and, Tellingly, he was sacked 38 times and his QBR was 49.4.

In his third season it all changed, starting with being sacked only 26 times. He completed 69% of his passes (avg. 7.9 yards) for 4,500 yards and 37 TDs. He fumbled 9 times and his QBR was 76.6.

It's a mistake to be too impatient. A lot of times the difference between a winning QB and a losing QB are the people he has around him and his coach. The Giant made Manning look like a sandlot QB in his last two seasons.

Phil Simms was very luck to have made it to his 5th season with the Giants. He was plagued by injuries and indifferent play. The fans booed him without mercy.

Parcells replaced him with Scott Brunner after Simms came back from a surgical knee that took his 4th season, and that would have been it if Brunner had been halfway decent. Simms came off the bench to relieve Brunner and promptly had the thumb injury that ended that season.

When he returned for his 5th season, he started all the games and turned it around and was named to the pro-Bowl.

My assessment of Jones is that another year is needed to assess him.



This bullcrap again. I was too young to remember early Simms but from my reading he started and won like 6 games in a row? He was rookie of the year. He had coach Walsh tell him he would make him a star if he came to play for him when he was at Morehead state.

None of those things apply to Jones.


Give me a break, Debaser. Giant fans know that Walsh was going to draft Simms in the 3rd round. But the Giants took him as 7th overall pick. Most though it was a big reach.

Is it bullcrap that Parcells started Brunner over Simms in Simms fourth year? It is bullcrap that Simms in his 2nd year Simms completed 48.0% of his passes for 15 TDs and 19 interceptions and 2300 yards. QB rating of 59.

In his 3rd season he completed 54% of his passes for 11 TDs and 9 picks before a separated shoulder ended his season. Brunner took over for Simms and led the Giants to their first playoff win of the century. Or so it seemed.

You're too lazy to spend two minutes looking up stats, you you just make up your own truth.
Walsh was going to draft Simms in the 3rd round  
arniefez : 1/16/2022 11:03 am : link
Not accurate. Walsh would have taken him with his first pick and Simms "stats" from those days are meaningless. His team couldn't protect him. Comparing the late 1970's and early 1980's to today's NFL is ridiculous.
Debaser  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/16/2022 11:20 am : link
Where am I wrong? Example of these 2 Giant teams? This concept of "elite" is so over blown it is ridiculous. Just follow history.

I never went classified Eli elite. What I classify him as is a very good QB who in big games (more in the playoffs) rose to a very elite place at different times. He had a lot of help as well.



RE: RE: RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 11:21 am : link
Quote:



Give me a break, Debaser. Giant fans know that Walsh was going to draft Simms in the 3rd round. But the Giants took him as 7th overall pick. Most though it was a big reach.

Is it bullcrap that Parcells started Brunner over Simms in Simms fourth year? It is bullcrap that Simms in his 2nd year Simms completed 48.0% of his passes for 15 TDs and 19 interceptions and 2300 yards. QB rating of 59.

In his 3rd season he completed 54% of his passes for 11 TDs and 9 picks before a separated shoulder ended his season. Brunner took over for Simms and led the Giants to their first playoff win of the century. Or so it seemed.

You're too lazy to spend two minutes looking up stats, you you just make up your own truth.


I don't really care what he did back then. Simms was always good when I started watching him in the mid-80s. He was a hall of famer or just under that. He beat prime Elway in big games and had great seasons when I watched.

The fact Simms was benched for Brunnel or whatever means that Daniel Jones is Phil Simms now? You must be out of your mind.
Allen had an incredible game last night but...Did anyone notice the  
Blue21 : 1/16/2022 11:21 am : link
catches his receivers were making? Many of those were incompletions if those were Giants WR's. Allen was out of this world but his receivers sure helped too.
RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
cosmicj : 1/16/2022 11:30 am : link
In comment 15555194 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
My nephew live near Buffalo and by the end of his second year they had had enough of him and were ready to reach back into the draft.

In his second season he started every game and completed 59% of passes for 3000 yards (avg. 6.7 yards) and 20 TDs. He fumbled 13 times and, Tellingly, he was sacked 38 times and his QBR was 49.4.

In his third season it all changed, starting with being sacked only 26 times. He completed 69% of his passes (avg. 7.9 yards) for 4,500 yards and 37 TDs. He fumbled 9 times and his QBR was 76.6.

It's a mistake to be too impatient. A lot of times the difference between a winning QB and a losing QB are the people he has around him and his coach. The Giant made Manning look like a sandlot QB in his last two seasons.

Phil Simms was very luck to have made it to his 5th season with the Giants. He was plagued by injuries and indifferent play. The fans booed him without mercy.

Parcells replaced him with Scott Brunner after Simms came back from a surgical knee that took his 4th season, and that would have been it if Brunner had been halfway decent. Simms came off the bench to relieve Brunner and promptly had the thumb injury that ended that season.

When he returned for his 5th season, he started all the games and turned it around and was named to the pro-Bowl.

My assessment of Jones is that another year is needed to assess him.


There is no instance of a current era QB (last 15 years) emerging as a very good QB later than early in their third season. None. Allen is the quintessential project QB and he was posting excellent numbers in September of his 3rd season.

Jones expiration date has passed.
RE: Debaser  
Debaser : 1/16/2022 11:47 am : link
In comment 15555370 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Where am I wrong? Example of these 2 Giant teams? This concept of "elite" is so over blown it is ridiculous. Just follow history.

I never went classified Eli elite. What I classify him as is a very good QB who in big games (more in the playoffs) rose to a very elite place at different times. He had a lot of help as well.




"very good"? He was a consensus #1 pick in a heavy QB class which saw his 2 contemporaries in the hall of fame. He was top 5 in yards and TDs in like his 2nd and 3rd year. I guess this whole Chargers trade thing on draft day has people confused on what the Giants were -- even with a HOF QB in Warner they were just a .500 team when Eli took the reins here.
RE: I saw Phil Simms mentioned  
Reese's Pieces : 1/16/2022 11:47 am : link
In comment 15555224 arniefez said:
Quote:
The only reason he's not in the HOF is because of the beating he took from 1979-1983. Phil Simms was an elite HOF talent from day one. The Giants didn't protect him and almost ruined his career.


Simms had a miserable sophomore season. Completed 48% of his passes for a total of 2351 yards. Fifteen TDs and 19 pics. He was better in his 3rd year, but was done after ten games with a shoulder injury. Scott Brunner replaced Simms and the team finally won a playoff game. He missed his entire 4th season in 1983 with the knee injury.

During this time the fans booed the hell out of Simms.
RE: RE: I saw Phil Simms mentioned  
Reese's Pieces : 1/16/2022 11:57 am : link
In comment 15555420 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
In comment 15555224 arniefez said:


Quote:


The only reason he's not in the HOF is because of the beating he took from 1979-1983. Phil Simms was an elite HOF talent from day one. The Giants didn't protect him and almost ruined his career.



Simms had a miserable sophomore season. Completed 48% of his passes for a total of 2351 yards. Fifteen TDs and 19 pics. He was better in his 3rd year, but was done after ten games with a shoulder injury. Scott Brunner replaced Simms and the team finally won a playoff game. He missed his entire 4th season in 1983 with the knee injury.

During this time the fans booed the hell out of Simms.


I forgot to add that since Walsh couldn't draft Simms with his 3rd round pick (82nd overall), he had to settle for Joe Montana.

The early 80s was when the defense was far ahead of the offense and we invented the phrase "Prevent Office." This meant that the offense in prevent mode would try not to turn the ball over and not to lose field position. The defense would go back out on the field and score.
RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
shyster : 1/16/2022 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15555194 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
My nephew live near Buffalo and by the end of his second year they had had enough of him and were ready to reach back into the draft.



Complete and total BS. Bills went 10-6, made the playoffs. Allen went into Dallas on Thanksgiving Day 2019 and destroyed the Cowboys with the whole world watching.

You cannot provide a legit source for the notion that the Bills and Beane was ever anything but totally in on Josh Allen.

Your nephew doesn't count.

RE: RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
Jimmy Googs : 1/16/2022 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15555457 shyster said:
Quote:
In comment 15555194 Reese's Pieces said:


Quote:


My nephew live near Buffalo and by the end of his second year they had had enough of him and were ready to reach back into the draft.





Complete and total BS. Bills went 10-6, made the playoffs. Allen went into Dallas on Thanksgiving Day 2019 and destroyed the Cowboys with the whole world watching.

You cannot provide a legit source for the notion that the Bills and Beane was ever anything but totally in on Josh Allen.

Your nephew doesn't count.


Yeah, not for nothing but that sentiment isn't really true as Shyster notes. I know plenty of contacts in that area that are diehard fans and that is not their take. Josh Allen showed some very nice improvements in his game in 2019 and the city and fans of Buffalo Bills were ecstatic in the rise of the team.

Allen had a rough go in his first playoff (many QBs do) and Buffalo fans, being no different than most, were upset with the outcome. But no fans that are knowledgeable with the game were jumping ship from Allen whatsoever...
RE: RE: RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
rsjem1979 : 1/16/2022 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15555474 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Yeah, not for nothing but that sentiment isn't really true as Shyster notes. I know plenty of contacts in that area that are diehard fans and that is not their take. Josh Allen showed some very nice improvements in his game in 2019 and the city and fans of Buffalo Bills were ecstatic in the rise of the team.

Allen had a rough go in his first playoff (many QBs do) and Buffalo fans, being no different than most, were upset with the outcome. But no fans that are knowledgeable with the game were jumping ship from Allen whatsoever...


To put some numbers to it, in Allen's last 11 starts of his second regular season, he threw 17 TDs, ran for 6 TDs, and threw only 3 INTs. The leading receiver on that team was the immortal John Brown.

The completion percentage was definitely a concern, but he was showing signs of figuring it out. What stood out the most was his ability to extend plays with his athleticism, and obviously a ridiculous arm.
RE: Walsh was going to draft Simms in the 3rd round  
Reese's Pieces : 1/16/2022 7:10 pm : link
In comment 15555337 arniefez said:
Quote:
Not accurate. Walsh would have taken him with his first pick and Simms "stats" from those days are meaningless. His team couldn't protect him. Comparing the late 1970's and early 1980's to today's NFL is ridiculous.


HuH?

I see your point. Completion percentage, number of TDs number of picks, number of fumbles.

It's all completely different now. No one even keeps those stats anymore.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's funny about using Josh Allen as an example.  
Jimmy Googs : 1/16/2022 8:10 pm : link
In comment 15555563 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 15555474 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:



Yeah, not for nothing but that sentiment isn't really true as Shyster notes. I know plenty of contacts in that area that are diehard fans and that is not their take. Josh Allen showed some very nice improvements in his game in 2019 and the city and fans of Buffalo Bills were ecstatic in the rise of the team.

Allen had a rough go in his first playoff (many QBs do) and Buffalo fans, being no different than most, were upset with the outcome. But no fans that are knowledgeable with the game were jumping ship from Allen whatsoever...



To put some numbers to it, in Allen's last 11 starts of his second regular season, he threw 17 TDs, ran for 6 TDs, and threw only 3 INTs. The leading receiver on that team was the immortal John Brown.

The completion percentage was definitely a concern, but he was showing signs of figuring it out. What stood out the most was his ability to extend plays with his athleticism, and obviously a ridiculous arm.


That is what I recall too rsjem. He was figuring out...well put..
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