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Man the Giants were Bad this year.

gidiefor : Mod : 1/15/2022 6:12 pm
Bru-tally

Sorry - I cannot let this debate in my mind continue any longer - Jones is just not a good NFL quarterback

He is stiff, limited at best, more often than not does not make good decisions, and a calamity waiting to happen.


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Think the decision is already taken out of the Giants hands  
adamg : 1/15/2022 6:14 pm : link
I'm not sure Jones can play anymore anyway. Neck could be career ending.
Yep.  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/15/2022 6:15 pm : link
It's time to move on from about 98-99% of the players on this roster. Keep Ojulari, Thomas, and McKinney and see how they develop until their rookie contracts are over and go from there. Everyone else can go, though.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/15/2022 6:16 pm : link
& we're going to suck in '22 too. God willing this is the last season before we start to ascend.
RE: Yep.  
adamg : 1/15/2022 6:17 pm : link
In comment 15554467 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
It's time to move on from about 98-99% of the players on this roster. Keep Ojulari, Thomas, and McKinney and see how they develop until their rookie contracts are over and go from there. Everyone else can go, though.


New GM will bring in his own guys. There will be a lot of unnecessary turnover.
Unfortunately this isn't supposed to be a great draft for QBs  
GFAN52 : 1/15/2022 6:18 pm : link
Start with building a strong OL and sign a stop gap, if the new GM wants to move on from Jones.
RE: Unfortunately this isn't supposed to be a great draft for QBs  
FStubbs : 1/15/2022 6:20 pm : link
In comment 15554474 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
Start with building a strong OL and sign a stop gap, if the new GM wants to move on from Jones.


I think we're in good shape to draft one high in '23.
Be happy  
Go Terps : 1/15/2022 6:21 pm : link
I think 2021 was the bottom.
Sounds  
Sammo85 : 1/15/2022 6:30 pm : link
Like you’re not in “full bloom love” with him.
Disappointed about DJ  
exiled : 1/15/2022 6:32 pm : link
I’ve been pulling for him. “That’s my quarterback.” I feel like it’s been hard to assess him, given the shit show. But he may be gone as part of the reboot.
And on what basis did you reach your “Damascus Moment” over DJ?  
plato : 1/15/2022 6:36 pm : link
Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.
It was a brutally bad year...  
Dan in the Springs : 1/15/2022 6:41 pm : link
Really like Mara's description, each week thinking we'd hit bottom but finding out there was a new low.

Don't know if I feel confident determining who is and isn't a good player based on the coaching/scheme/supporting cast each was playing with. Heck, hidden or under-reported injuries players play through alone can mask their ability (see Thomas' rookie year).

Personally I'm hoping that our new GM will put into place a new program to improve the talent brought through the door, and that includes the coaches. I'm hoping the coaches can improve how that talent executes on the field.

With that hope it seems ridiculous to throw out all of our players, even the ones who have seemingly shown little over the past few years. Let the new people running the new football program decide who they want to keep and how to use them.
These officials are awful  
Rick in Dallas : 1/15/2022 6:43 pm : link
Affecting the game big time
Sorry guys wrong thread  
Rick in Dallas : 1/15/2022 6:49 pm : link
Jones is a smart guy  
Mook80 : 1/15/2022 6:54 pm : link
but has zero football instincts. Doesn't anticipate anything.
RE: Be happy  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/15/2022 7:00 pm : link
In comment 15554482 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think 2021 was the bottom.


Hope springs eternal.
This team is just a perfect storm of bad...  
bw in dc : 1/15/2022 7:06 pm : link
Bad group of QBs.
Bad OL.
Bad luck with endless injuries.
Bad depth.
Bad coaching.
Bad management.
Bad ownership.

It's going to take a very good, bold, and honest QB (by honest, I mean with Mara) to turn this around.
How did we beat  
Mayo2JZ : 1/15/2022 7:23 pm : link
the Bengals last year?
RE: How did we beat  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/15/2022 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15554590 Mayo2JZ said:
Quote:
the Bengals last year?


Burrow was out no?
I knew I forgot something  
Mayo2JZ : 1/15/2022 7:30 pm : link
I was at the game and met License Plate guy.
RE: And on what basis did you reach your “Damascus Moment” over DJ?  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/15/2022 7:37 pm : link
In comment 15554495 plato said:
Quote:
Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.


Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.

Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.
RE: Jones is a smart guy  
Simms11 : 1/15/2022 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15554535 Mook80 said:
Quote:
but has zero football instincts. Doesn't anticipate anything.


Yea, check out the video of the Giants come back victory against the Eagles in 06. Eli, although not consistent in that game, just had the ability to win it. He could read Ds and get through ball out. He was a gamer and I had full confidence in him when on his game. It was a thing beauty. I don't ever feel confident that Jones can win the game
What’s doubly unique  
Sammo85 : 1/15/2022 7:43 pm : link
About Carr and Burrow is their OLs are both pretty horrendous in pass protection.



 
christian : 1/15/2022 7:47 pm : link
I have zero love lost for the group Gettleman assembled, but I believe this was a 7 win team if not for the comedy of injuries.

Now, I think the ceiling for that group was 7 wins, and that’s nowhere near good enough. Not close.

But I do believe the Giants can make a flash refresh of this roster. I believe there are at least 5 starters on each side of the ball who can be salvaged.

Next year will be tough, but if they commit to upgrading the talent at QB this team can be the next Bengals.
it was an ugly season  
Producer : 1/15/2022 7:54 pm : link
for sure.
RE: ...  
M.S. : 1/15/2022 7:57 pm : link
In comment 15554469 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
& we're going to suck in '22 too. God willing this is the last season before we start to ascend.

The Giants are REALLY gonna suck in 2022.

In the 2023 Draft they will be picking #1

Or, if they punch above their weight… #2.
Watching Benglas vs Raiders...  
Jim in Tampa : 1/15/2022 8:02 pm : link
And Brees told the story of a FA (can't recall which one) who signed with the Bengals.

Brees asked him why the Bengals, and he said, "Because we got a Q" (meanning Joe Burrow).

The game is entirely different when you have a "Q" and we don't have one.
We will stink in 2022 regardless of who the quarterback is  
kelly : 1/15/2022 8:04 pm : link
We should trade down this year for more picks in 2023. If Jones is not the answer based on 2022, then we have the draft Capital to move up in 2023 to get a quarterback
Problem with Jones is he can not carry a team....  
Simms11 : 1/15/2022 8:09 pm : link
He needs all the right pieces around him to have a chance. He’s along for the ride, instead of being the driver.
RE: RE: And on what basis did you reach your “Damascus Moment” over DJ?  
eric2425ny : 1/15/2022 8:10 pm : link
In comment 15554604 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15554495 plato said:


Quote:


Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.



Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.

Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.


Agree 100%. He makes me nervous every time he takes a snap. Ironically, the most comfortable he ever looked was that first game against Tampa.
Christian-who are your 5 starters on offense!  
Dave on the UWS : 1/15/2022 8:22 pm : link
Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.
Mike Tannanbaum  
joeinpa : 1/15/2022 8:31 pm : link
On Ranaan s podcast said enough pieces are in place to make the Giants an attractive job, and they should be able to win beginning next season

Just repeating what he said, so take it easy.
RE: Watching Benglas vs Raiders...  
Producer : 1/15/2022 8:36 pm : link
In comment 15554651 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
And Brees told the story of a FA (can't recall which one) who signed with the Bengals.

Brees asked him why the Bengals, and he said, "Because we got a Q" (meanning Joe Burrow).

The game is entirely different when you have a "Q" and we don't have one.


I got slammed here all season for saying just this.
RE: Problem with Jones is he can not carry a team....  
joe48 : 1/15/2022 8:38 pm : link
In comment 15554663 Simms11 said:
Quote:
He needs all the right pieces around him to have a chance. He’s along for the ride, instead of being the driver.

Only a couple of QB can carry teams in this league. Carry is a term that is thrown around but loosely defined.
Watch the QB play on display today  
Go Terps : 1/15/2022 8:47 pm : link
Light years beyond Jones. Light years.
I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
joeinpa : 1/15/2022 8:48 pm : link
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
RE: Watch the QB play on display today  
Route 9 : 1/15/2022 8:50 pm : link
In comment 15554728 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Light years beyond Jones. Light years.


But but those QBs could never thrive in a situation where Jones can't! That's just how it is!
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Sammo85 : 1/15/2022 8:59 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


Shurmur loved Allen and wanted to draft him. Gettleman and Pettit were in charge and were in love with Barkley.
RE: Christian-who are your 5 starters on offense!  
christian : 1/15/2022 8:59 pm : link
In comment 15554684 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.


I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.

I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.

I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Producer : 1/15/2022 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


But he wasn't touched by the hand of God.
RE: RE: Christian-who are your 5 starters on offense!  
Sammo85 : 1/15/2022 9:07 pm : link
In comment 15554751 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15554684 Dave on the UWS said:


Quote:


Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.



I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.

I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.

I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.


Booker is going to want a raise. They’ll keep Lawrence being on his last contract year but I don’t see a second contract for him.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Mike in NY : 1/15/2022 9:08 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
Seeing the elite qb play today  
lax counsel : 1/15/2022 9:14 pm : link
Should tell you all you need to know about Jones. He’s a paint by numbers robot in the pocket, fast in a straight line but not mobile in the pocket. You need a burrow, Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, in this era of NFL football to be a serious threat. The qb position is as important a ever in this league.

Jones isn’t a legit threat in this league.
Watching these playoff games realy show me  
Chef : 1/15/2022 9:15 pm : link
just how fucking awful the Giants are...
RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
lax counsel : 1/15/2022 9:17 pm : link
In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.



It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Go Terps : 1/15/2022 9:20 pm : link
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.


They had Eli. Drafting a QB, any QB, was off the table.
RE: RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
Mike in NY : 1/15/2022 9:23 pm : link
In comment 15554783 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.




It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.


In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.
We are so far from being one of these  
Ike#88 : 1/15/2022 9:28 pm : link
playoff teams. No firepower, bad schemes, a below average QB. It is depressing.
The discussions about Jones may be academic  
Ron from Ninerland : 1/15/2022 9:33 pm : link
Up until the middle of this year I thought Jones was the guy. Under Shurmer he put up great numbers and made good decisions. Even this year he had his moments. He carried the team on his back to that OT win against the Saints, who'd be in the playoffs if not for Jones. This year not only did he have to endure a bad OL, he's had to endure 2 OC's both of them bad, a different group of receivers every week, most of them bad.

None of that matters now. We have to assume Jones is not physically reliable. There's a real possibility that he's out of football, but even if the Giants' medical staff clear him, the same staff that cleared Wilson less than a year after stenosis surgery , can he be depended on ? He's had other injuries that have kept him out multiple weeks. Unless the neck resolves 100%, which I don't think is possible he's one good hit away from another season ender.

I don't know what they do. Drafting a QB onto a team that's otherwise this bad isn't going to help. As for Russel Wilson or someone of that caliber , even if the could get him, how do they pay him ?.

I like Jones. For his sake I hope he develops into a productive QB for somebody else, but it ain't happening here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent  
lax counsel : 1/15/2022 9:48 pm : link
In comment 15554796 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15554783 lax counsel said:


Quote:


In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:


Quote:


But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?

Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.



Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.




It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.



In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.


Agree that he was not sure fire blue chip, but I guess that’s the draft you have to be able to evaluate potential, based on current talent. Bad teams miss on great players all the time, so not a surprise that the giants, browns, and Jets misses on Allen. Unfortunately the Browns and the Jets are the type of company the Giants keep right now.
Offense is a hot mess  
BigBlueBuff : 1/15/2022 10:15 pm : link
About the only reasonably decent pieces were Thomas, Rudolph, and Penny. I suppose Peart can make a decent backup guard and Golladay has value because of his contract. I am not ever going to count on Toney, he just strikes me as another soft gadget receiver who is going to be hurt 50% of the potential snaps. May as well trade him for a bag of kicking balls.
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