It's time to move on from about 98-99% of the players on this roster. Keep Ojulari, Thomas, and McKinney and see how they develop until their rookie contracts are over and go from there. Everyone else can go, though.
It's time to move on from about 98-99% of the players on this roster. Keep Ojulari, Thomas, and McKinney and see how they develop until their rookie contracts are over and go from there. Everyone else can go, though.
New GM will bring in his own guys. There will be a lot of unnecessary turnover.
Unfortunately this isn't supposed to be a great draft for QBs
I’ve been pulling for him. “That’s my quarterback.” I feel like it’s been hard to assess him, given the shit show. But he may be gone as part of the reboot.
And on what basis did you reach your “Damascus Moment” over DJ?
Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.
Really like Mara's description, each week thinking we'd hit bottom but finding out there was a new low.
Don't know if I feel confident determining who is and isn't a good player based on the coaching/scheme/supporting cast each was playing with. Heck, hidden or under-reported injuries players play through alone can mask their ability (see Thomas' rookie year).
Personally I'm hoping that our new GM will put into place a new program to improve the talent brought through the door, and that includes the coaches. I'm hoping the coaches can improve how that talent executes on the field.
With that hope it seems ridiculous to throw out all of our players, even the ones who have seemingly shown little over the past few years. Let the new people running the new football program decide who they want to keep and how to use them.
Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.
Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.
Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.
but has zero football instincts. Doesn't anticipate anything.
Yea, check out the video of the Giants come back victory against the Eagles in 06. Eli, although not consistent in that game, just had the ability to win it. He could read Ds and get through ball out. He was a gamer and I had full confidence in him when on his game. It was a thing beauty. I don't ever feel confident that Jones can win the game
I have zero love lost for the group Gettleman assembled, but I believe this was a 7 win team if not for the comedy of injuries.
Now, I think the ceiling for that group was 7 wins, and that’s nowhere near good enough. Not close.
But I do believe the Giants can make a flash refresh of this roster. I believe there are at least 5 starters on each side of the ball who can be salvaged.
Next year will be tough, but if they commit to upgrading the talent at QB this team can be the next Bengals.
We should trade down this year for more picks in 2023. If Jones is not the answer based on 2022, then we have the draft Capital to move up in 2023 to get a quarterback
Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.
Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.
Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.
Agree 100%. He makes me nervous every time he takes a snap. Ironically, the most comfortable he ever looked was that first game against Tampa.
Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.
Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.
I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.
I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.
I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent
Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.
I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.
I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.
I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.
Booker is going to want a raise. They’ll keep Lawrence being on his last contract year but I don’t see a second contract for him.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
Should tell you all you need to know about Jones. He’s a paint by numbers robot in the pocket, fast in a straight line but not mobile in the pocket. You need a burrow, Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, in this era of NFL football to be a serious threat. The qb position is as important a ever in this league.
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.
Up until the middle of this year I thought Jones was the guy. Under Shurmer he put up great numbers and made good decisions. Even this year he had his moments. He carried the team on his back to that OT win against the Saints, who'd be in the playoffs if not for Jones. This year not only did he have to endure a bad OL, he's had to endure 2 OC's both of them bad, a different group of receivers every week, most of them bad.
None of that matters now. We have to assume Jones is not physically reliable. There's a real possibility that he's out of football, but even if the Giants' medical staff clear him, the same staff that cleared Wilson less than a year after stenosis surgery , can he be depended on ? He's had other injuries that have kept him out multiple weeks. Unless the neck resolves 100%, which I don't think is possible he's one good hit away from another season ender.
I don't know what they do. Drafting a QB onto a team that's otherwise this bad isn't going to help. As for Russel Wilson or someone of that caliber , even if the could get him, how do they pay him ?.
I like Jones. For his sake I hope he develops into a productive QB for somebody else, but it ain't happening here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don’t know much about evaluating football talent
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.
Agree that he was not sure fire blue chip, but I guess that’s the draft you have to be able to evaluate potential, based on current talent. Bad teams miss on great players all the time, so not a surprise that the giants, browns, and Jets misses on Allen. Unfortunately the Browns and the Jets are the type of company the Giants keep right now.
About the only reasonably decent pieces were Thomas, Rudolph, and Penny. I suppose Peart can make a decent backup guard and Golladay has value because of his contract. I am not ever going to count on Toney, he just strikes me as another soft gadget receiver who is going to be hurt 50% of the potential snaps. May as well trade him for a bag of kicking balls.
New GM will bring in his own guys. There will be a lot of unnecessary turnover.
I think we're in good shape to draft one high in '23.
Don't know if I feel confident determining who is and isn't a good player based on the coaching/scheme/supporting cast each was playing with. Heck, hidden or under-reported injuries players play through alone can mask their ability (see Thomas' rookie year).
Personally I'm hoping that our new GM will put into place a new program to improve the talent brought through the door, and that includes the coaches. I'm hoping the coaches can improve how that talent executes on the field.
With that hope it seems ridiculous to throw out all of our players, even the ones who have seemingly shown little over the past few years. Let the new people running the new football program decide who they want to keep and how to use them.
Hope springs eternal.
Bad OL.
Bad luck with endless injuries.
Bad depth.
Bad coaching.
Bad management.
Bad ownership.
It's going to take a very good, bold, and honest QB (by honest, I mean with Mara) to turn this around.
Burrow was out no?
Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.
Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.
Yea, check out the video of the Giants come back victory against the Eagles in 06. Eli, although not consistent in that game, just had the ability to win it. He could read Ds and get through ball out. He was a gamer and I had full confidence in him when on his game. It was a thing beauty. I don't ever feel confident that Jones can win the game
Now, I think the ceiling for that group was 7 wins, and that’s nowhere near good enough. Not close.
But I do believe the Giants can make a flash refresh of this roster. I believe there are at least 5 starters on each side of the ball who can be salvaged.
Next year will be tough, but if they commit to upgrading the talent at QB this team can be the next Bengals.
The Giants are REALLY gonna suck in 2022.
In the 2023 Draft they will be picking #1
Or, if they punch above their weight… #2.
Brees asked him why the Bengals, and he said, "Because we got a Q" (meanning Joe Burrow).
The game is entirely different when you have a "Q" and we don't have one.
Quote:
Lots of comments possible over ‘stiff’ but not sure of their relevance. I’ve known you for a long long time and doubt that you made it lightly. Please enlighten if you will.
Doc, I'm watching the Bengals / Raiders game. Even Carr; he's not great; but watching them, I just don't see Jones being able to play, or do things, like either of these QBs. It's fun to watch them.
Watching Jones. It's more like holding your breath. What clunker is he gonna do next? It's not fun. He goes out there like a Bocko-Socko doll. He makes some good plays but really it's the exception not the rule with him. He makes an awful lot of bad calls out there and makes a lot of very awkward maneuvers.
Agree 100%. He makes me nervous every time he takes a snap. Ironically, the most comfortable he ever looked was that first game against Tampa.
Just repeating what he said, so take it easy.
Brees asked him why the Bengals, and he said, "Because we got a Q" (meanning Joe Burrow).
The game is entirely different when you have a "Q" and we don't have one.
I got slammed here all season for saying just this.
Only a couple of QB can carry teams in this league. Carry is a term that is thrown around but loosely defined.
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
But but those QBs could never thrive in a situation where Jones can't! That's just how it is!
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Shurmur loved Allen and wanted to draft him. Gettleman and Pettit were in charge and were in love with Barkley.
I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.
I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.
I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
But he wasn't touched by the hand of God.
Quote:
Just asking, because I have 3. Thomas and Toney and Golladay. ( I wouldn’t count Barkley ans Jones. They should be traded for draft capital). Engram is a free agent, Rudolph needs to be cut for cap relief. They need 4 OL and another reliable WR.
I think you can salvage Thomas, Toney, Golladay, Bredeson, and Booker next year on offense. I agree you cannot count on Jones or Barkley.
I think you can salvage Ojulari, Williams, Lawrence, McKinney, Love, Bradberry, and Jackson. And hopefully Roche. I’m nervous about Martinez’s health and I believe Ryan will be cut.
I’m not saying this is a great situation. I think it’s quite bad. But these are the guys I think you can give a good look at next year.
Booker is going to want a raise. They’ll keep Lawrence being on his last contract year but I don’t see a second contract for him.
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
Jones isn’t a legit threat in this league.
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
They had Eli. Drafting a QB, any QB, was off the table.
Quote:
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.
None of that matters now. We have to assume Jones is not physically reliable. There's a real possibility that he's out of football, but even if the Giants' medical staff clear him, the same staff that cleared Wilson less than a year after stenosis surgery , can he be depended on ? He's had other injuries that have kept him out multiple weeks. Unless the neck resolves 100%, which I don't think is possible he's one good hit away from another season ender.
I don't know what they do. Drafting a QB onto a team that's otherwise this bad isn't going to help. As for Russel Wilson or someone of that caliber , even if the could get him, how do they pay him ?.
I like Jones. For his sake I hope he develops into a productive QB for somebody else, but it ain't happening here.
Quote:
In comment 15554770 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15554731 joeinpa said:
Quote:
But how can a team in need of a quarterback as were the Giants 4 seasons ago, watch Josh Allen throw the ball and not draft him?
Seriously, these guys are pros, how do they not know.
Allen always looked the part in shorts, but he struggled a lot in college against better competition and regressed in his Draft year when he was the lone vet on a young team. There was concern that he would be like any number of big tools no toolbox QB’s.
It was a clear miss by a terrible front office, just like the Jets missed. It’s not like Allen fell to 25, he went a 7 so a team with a top pick evaluated him correctly for the modern game.
In hindsight they missed, but I disagree that he was some surefire blue chip option that nobody should have passed on at the time. There were some who had him as 4th or 5th best QB in that draft. Early on they were proven correct. Intensive work with Daboll and getting Diggs at WR is what really took his game to the next level. He still makes some boneheaded plays with sacks/turnovers when he tries to do too much, but he has cut that down this year.
Agree that he was not sure fire blue chip, but I guess that’s the draft you have to be able to evaluate potential, based on current talent. Bad teams miss on great players all the time, so not a surprise that the giants, browns, and Jets misses on Allen. Unfortunately the Browns and the Jets are the type of company the Giants keep right now.