Reese probably should have been fired too. They were both fired first for bad football teams.
Like I said, Mara has made plenty of mistakes. Not disputing that. I dispute the claims that unless Chris is removed and Mara is forced to commit seppuku in times square, we won't ever win again.
And I gotta be honest, I don't buy for one fucking second that Mara used them as shields with the whole QB debate. If the Giants were winning they don't get fired. If McAdoo doesn't lose the team he doesn't get fired. I don't even get that line. What does that even prove?
by the same people telling me this shit that James Dolan would NEVER EVER EVER allow for a Knicks team to rebuild. Now we have the same owner presiding over a Knicks team that has probably compiled one of the better young talent bases in the entire NBA.
Mara is the problem until he isn't the problem. If and when he hires the right HC and GM, he will no longer be the problem. I promise. Hold me to it. He has hired the wrong people. That's why he's firing them 2 years later.
What these people say in press conferences doesn't matter much
Look at their actions: Chris Mara is in the room interviewing GM candidates.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
The Giants most definitely do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. We agree there. No one should be betting any overs or setting aside playoff ticket money anytime soon. When they win again, they win again. Until then, no amount of hiring the right GM or HC will matter to me. It will look good, it might even feel pretty good, and I will at least hold hope some hope that maybe they finally got shit right, but I won't believe anything until I see it.
If you think I am waving any pom poms with these posts think again. Not everyone who disagree with you is looking at things with rose colored glasses. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the latest group think that Mara will inevitably ruin things. There is a ton of evidence to support the claim that if Mara likes who is running things he stays the fuck out of the way. Even at times to a fault. And you know that.
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
Again, see my post before this. I am not holding out hope for shit. I just disagree with this aggressive take on Mara. Don't know why someone can't say that's a pretty intense take while still thinking the team sucks.
RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
a perfect microcosm for the problems of the Giants organization.
Operating with much worse data, poor results, yet somehow still brazenly confident in the "process"
I think that is the reason I can't understand why anyone would say they are serious about real change or this is business as usual.
WE don't have enough data right now. This could very easily be us getting our pound of flesh so they can keep their ultimate control. Or they could have realized that unless they really cede some power and change this is going to get worse.
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
And this is even more reason why it was bullshit Gettleman “retired”, I will argue that DID matter.
RE: RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
some of you make it sound like MAra's very existence here will prevent the team from ever winning again. I don't buy that. I think that's an extreme take on things even if Duggan conjured up some anecdotal evidence. He's a good writer so I don't doubt this stuff but it doesn't prove the claim that Mara will continue to sabotage things.
You want to believe that be my guest. Pretty dark and morbid take on things. Especially when I have seen some brutal owners win and win big.
RE: RE: RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
Ok fine, I don't doubt it. But that doesn't mean we never win again, lol.
He's had a brutal decade. Let's hope for the best moving forward. I can't do anything more than that.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
RE: Until they make changes in scouting/pro personnel
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Rudolph is a less important canary. Let’s see if Tim protects him.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
I think internally Siam is the biggest litmus test. It can be said that he more clearly sucked at his job than Abrams, ESPECIALLY considering JJ's "spreadsheet" comment
But like Abrams all we heard was what a "star" he is.
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Agreed.
If the people that work in Scouting/Pro Personnel aren't
good at what they are doing, then it is up to the GM to implement good standards and processes including evaluating and changing out underperformers.
If Gettleman, and Reese before him, didn't do those things then it's because they themselves weren't good at what they were doing, and/or relied more on themselves (hubris) to make the right decisions.
Either way...find a competent GM that can display he has strong attributes at how a player evaluation process should operate, and things will get better for the NYG...
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
That is going to be the watershed for sure, specifically on Jones.
If Jones is retained, then (1) the GM has been told by ownership that they believe Jones should be given at least another year to be evaluated. Or (2) the GM actually likes Jones, which means he's probably the wrong choice for the role.
if this extensive GM search wasn't happening like this. But again, this nice sexy list of names doesn't ensure anything. This new GM still has to crush it here. And the HC has to be very good. I'll wait until we are winning games before I feel confident but I wouldn't posses a shred of hope if Judge was here and the GM search wasn't looking as good as it is.
Based on conjecture. DG was a putz. From day 1 when the plan was to draft a RB with the #2 overall pick and to win one more with Eli it was clear we were in for bad decision making at the top and we've endured four years of it. On the notion of deeper issues caused by Mara family involvement I have no direct knowledge of. There is smoke, yes, but sources unknown --twitter, Mark Ross??? It's a believable story, no doubt, and aligns with current wave of Mara hate, but that doesn't make it true. I don't know everything, but I know what I know and know what I don't know. This one falls into the category of the latter.
Who the hell would want to work for these A-holes?
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
for YEARS I've been arguing with people here about the Mara's and Chris Mara. When I started posting about Chris Mara, to say that it wasn't met with enthusiasm or agreement would be an understatement. I promise I'm going to try to stop posting about Chris Mara now that the curtain has finally been pulled back and the reason the Giants are such a mess is becoming obvious. But when I began to talk about how the Giants were being run there certainly wasn't any mainstream media backing me up.
I'll take Duggan's article at almost face value. He's covered the Giants for a while and even though I'm sure what he wrote won't be well received at 1925 Giants Way I thought it was pretty balanced.
Quote:
Chris Mara’s candidacy was tricky. Sure, he was a part-owner, but he paid his dues, becoming a Giants scout in 1979 and spending 14 years combing the country for draft prospects. “He was one of the best scouts,” said Jerry Shay, a Giants scout from 1973 to 2011. “I just think he had a great knack for recognizing talent.”
Jerry Shay didn't say Chris Mara was combing the country those are Duggan's words and he wasn't around in the 80's that's for sure. For those of you who don't know who Jerry Shay is; he was the 7th pick in the 1966 draft by the Vikings and ended his career with the Giants. He had a career ending broken leg in 1971. He was only 27 and a pretty good DT at the time. He became a scout for the Giants when his playing career ended and was kept on and promoted by George Young if I remember correctly (always questionable).
He is 77 years old now. He described his time with the Giants like this:
Quote:
Shay said he enjoyed his career as a college scout. “I was on the road about 200 days during the year,” he recalled. “You got to meet the top college coaches, visit the top college programs, stay in nice hotels, you got to meet a lot of nice people.”
Does anyone really think that Chris Mara lived Jerry Shay's college scout life? When I traveled with the team - separately but stayed in the team hotels and there was literally zero security, we had access to anywhere we wanted to go. Chris Mara was there and he was the owners son. In a suit, sitting next his father on the team bus. During the college football season. Every time I was there from 86-90. I was at 2 or 3 away games each year. Maybe Chris Mara was a scout but he certainly didn't live like one.
George Young is the HOF for many reasons. He was a very smart man.
Quote:
Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,” Young said, according to Accorsi’s biography
Someone forgot to tell the 2nd generation of Tisch Family owners. They blocked Chris Mara from becoming GM in 2007 but they left the back door open. The Mara's haven't had to use too many back doors in their gilded lives but they used this one to their advantage and the demise of the Giants.
Quote:
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”
“It doesn’t matter what you talk about in the meetings when they go home for dinner and they’re brothers and they’re family.” “It’s just a whole dynamic that you can’t fight.”
Likely Marc Ross as the source but the fact that he's bitter and an ass doesn't make it untrue.
Quote:
An executive of a rival NFL team with no family members in the personnel department understood how the Giants’ structure could create problems.
“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”
And then there's Tim McDonnell. I hope this paragraph is the case. It certainly is a different story than the scouts on Twitter but they're not objective, one was recently fired by the Giants and the other is another teams scout who is anonymous.
Quote:
McDonnell earns universal praise for his work ethic. And a former member of the coaching staff supported Mara’s claim about the respect for McDonnell within the organization. “I think Tim is the best of the personnel people in there,” the former coach said. “He wants to change things and get it right.”
I'm into the weeds here and asking questions I'll never have the answers to. But if you've been following all of this including Baghdad Pat's attempted take down of the Giants former scout on Twitter by basically telling him he should have been fired sooner, maybe we can thank Tim McDonnell for that. Of course the article also mentions how close he is with Chris Pettit and that there's a protected clique in the Giants front office that stays when the GM's and coaches go and how much that clique has to do with the current state of the team.
Quote:
McDonnell’s ascension has raised eyebrows. He spent six years as a pro scout before getting promoted by Gettleman to assistant director of player personnel in 2019. Two years later, he was named co-director of player personnel. For perspective on where that title ranks in the hierarchy of an NFL front office, three of the nine candidates for the Giants GM job are currently directors of player personnel for their teams.
“He hasn’t cut his teeth long enough to be co-director of player personnel,” said a former Giants scout.
John Mara insisted last week that McDonnell “does not have any authority.” But his prominence undoubtedly has grown. When war rooms for the 2021 draft were limited to 10 people due to COVID-19 restrictions, McDonnell had a spot among the Giants’ top decision-makers.
The article also mentions that EVERYTHING gets run by John Mara, usually as a rubber stamp but everything means everything.
So far I think the Giants have done just about everything I could have hoped for in the GM search including firing Judge even though I still like him and think he was sabotaged and had no chance to succeed. I hope they make a good choice for GM and let him hire the coach and clean out the front office. It would be nice if the games went back to being the fun part of following the Giants not the palace intrigue of an emperor that has no clothes.
I thought this was a significant quote from the article
It’s challenging to quantify if one voice carries more weight in that collaborative process. And even Chris Mara’s critics concede that he’s not an overpowering presence in personnel meetings. But former employees also said his opinions implicitly carry more weight.
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”
I ecstatic that Gettleman is gone.
I am very happy that Judge is gone too.
Make no mistake, these are very positive moves and they bring hope that the franchise will turn things around. However, it will still take a Strong GM who can push through some added bullshit and necessary obstacles.
The quote above clearly defines the added obstacles.
Does it mean that the Next GM regime is doomed to fail before it even starts. NO, absolutely not. It just makes the job a bit harder and as Terps has said, it increases the probability of failure.
If you want you best chance of success, remove any and every obstacle, real or perceived. And make no mistake, perceptions matter. These are people in the building. They are not robots. There is a lot of unconscious psychology that just isn't helpful.
Let's put it this way. All things being equal, any given team only has about a 3% chance of winning a SB. That means that over a 10 year period that a front office only has about a 26% chance of success. Why reduce that even by 1% point, by creating a less than optimal structure.
“There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
+1
RE: As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
We’ll, us people (fans) would like to see a winning organization not dragged down by cronyism. From the cheerleading spin it would seem the employees enjoy the status quo jobs for life regardless of performance.
I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
x1,000,000,000
RE: What these people say in press conferences doesn't matter much
Look at their actions: Chris Mara is in the room interviewing GM candidates.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Again spot on.
Idiot owners involved in football operations and when the heat is turned up the x-rays alway show Mara has no spine, and he leads the next ring of HCs and GMs to slaughter.
Meat shields are an apropos name.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Davis Webb thing was infuriating
In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
Yep, try to discredit the post (and thread) by belittling an error that, in the main, was correct. In a puff news story lauding CM as some wunderkind who could do double duty as a personnel guy and still Attend the KDerby as an owner (but in retrospect was a hugely damning article) it also reported that CM’s big find (Bradshaw) occurred because Kate happened to be doing a film on campus and learned of him and pointed him out to her father. So yeah, great scouting detective work canvassing the little know college backwaters….
Apologies for upsetting your deeper takes on this thread.
A few years ago, when JM was asked about his role in the draft, he said he would make the final decision when the GM and HC disagreed about a player.
He did not limit his involvement to off-the-field concerns.
I distinctly recalled this statement and, by google search, was able to find confirmation, from a 2016 article:
Quote:
Giants owner John Mara empowers general manager Jerry Reese to have final say in most matters. But Mara sits in on draft meetings and studies the book of scouts' reports. And if there is a disagreement between Reese and the head coach, Mara casts the tiebreaker.
I take JM's statement at his most recent PC about off-the-field issues as a strategic public relations retreat in the face of criticism, rather a reflection of any real change in his role, up until now.
And I never took the "I just break the tie" characterization at face value either. This is what he does, or has been doing, with his life.
Who the hell would want to work for these A-holes?
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
+1
Yup. Spineless cowards who pull the next patsy in front of them to take all the bullets. Rinse and repeat.
They are so bad at their job and are such weak leaders they cannot even stand tall in their convictions on who they hire even in the face of a little heat.
A sign of poor ethics, poor leadership, and zero confidence in their own decision making. Oh but we’re such a classy organization. GTFOH.
Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
This. It shows how weak of a leader he is…
I know it’s not popular but if he had such strong conviction to hire the likes of McAdoo and Judge it would be great for once for him to tell the fans to just STFU — “We hired these guys for XYZ reasons and ABC legitimate reasons impeded progress, but we strongly believe in them 100%”.
Any great team leader will take bullets for their staff, but Mara pushes his guys off the plank the first signs of distress. It is weak beyond words.
Maras wishy washy convictions and feeding coaches and GMs to the slaughter house every few years makes me skeptical on this process unless the GM has power without the influence of others.
Their decision making card should be revoked once a real football guy comes in.
Like I said, Mara has made plenty of mistakes. Not disputing that. I dispute the claims that unless Chris is removed and Mara is forced to commit seppuku in times square, we won't ever win again.
And I gotta be honest, I don't buy for one fucking second that Mara used them as shields with the whole QB debate. If the Giants were winning they don't get fired. If McAdoo doesn't lose the team he doesn't get fired. I don't even get that line. What does that even prove?
Mara is the problem until he isn't the problem. If and when he hires the right HC and GM, he will no longer be the problem. I promise. Hold me to it. He has hired the wrong people. That's why he's firing them 2 years later.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
If you think I am waving any pom poms with these posts think again. Not everyone who disagree with you is looking at things with rose colored glasses. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the latest group think that Mara will inevitably ruin things. There is a ton of evidence to support the claim that if Mara likes who is running things he stays the fuck out of the way. Even at times to a fault. And you know that.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
Again, see my post before this. I am not holding out hope for shit. I just disagree with this aggressive take on Mara. Don't know why someone can't say that's a pretty intense take while still thinking the team sucks.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
Operating with much worse data, poor results, yet somehow still brazenly confident in the "process"
I think that is the reason I can't understand why anyone would say they are serious about real change or this is business as usual.
WE don't have enough data right now. This could very easily be us getting our pound of flesh so they can keep their ultimate control. Or they could have realized that unless they really cede some power and change this is going to get worse.
He's been forced to overly compensate due to his own mistakes. Hire the right people and we will be fine.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
And this is even more reason why it was bullshit Gettleman “retired”, I will argue that DID matter.
Quote:
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
You want to believe that be my guest. Pretty dark and morbid take on things. Especially when I have seen some brutal owners win and win big.
Quote:
In comment 15559559 JonC said:
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That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
Ok fine, I don't doubt it. But that doesn't mean we never win again, lol.
He's had a brutal decade. Let's hope for the best moving forward. I can't do anything more than that.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Rudolph is a less important canary. Let’s see if Tim protects him.
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The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
I think internally Siam is the biggest litmus test. It can be said that he more clearly sucked at his job than Abrams, ESPECIALLY considering JJ's "spreadsheet" comment
But like Abrams all we heard was what a "star" he is.
It's just odd that 6 weeks ago Mara was never going out of his comfort zone. Was never going to fire Judge. Never hire a GM from outside.
He did fire Judge.
He isn't promoting Abrams.
He's going to hire an outsider GM.
So now I guess we pivot to this new thread? He's going to ruin everything no matter what?
People were wrong about this GM/HC process. Can we admit that or no?
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this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Agreed.
If Gettleman, and Reese before him, didn't do those things then it's because they themselves weren't good at what they were doing, and/or relied more on themselves (hubris) to make the right decisions.
Either way...find a competent GM that can display he has strong attributes at how a player evaluation process should operate, and things will get better for the NYG...
That is going to be the watershed for sure, specifically on Jones.
If Jones is retained, then (1) the GM has been told by ownership that they believe Jones should be given at least another year to be evaluated. Or (2) the GM actually likes Jones, which means he's probably the wrong choice for the role.
He wants to win, but he won't turn over every stone to do it. That's a problem in an ultra competitive environment.
He wants to win, but he won't turn over every stone to do it. That's a problem in an ultra competitive environment.
Mara has perfect opportunity turn it all over now, and keep himself distanced from the carnage, by putting the new GM at forefront...
It's just odd that 6 weeks ago Mara was never going out of his comfort zone. Was never going to fire Judge. Never hire a GM from outside.
He did fire Judge.
He isn't promoting Abrams.
He's going to hire an outsider GM.
So now I guess we pivot to this new thread? He's going to ruin everything no matter what?
People were wrong about this GM/HC process. Can we admit that or no?
You're all over the place as is your style, but this post is fine. As much as folks won't admit it...
:-)
Well said. We’ll find out a lot in the next month or so.
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
Brace yourselves: 2017 - 2033
Wouldn't it start 2013?
I'll take Duggan's article at almost face value. He's covered the Giants for a while and even though I'm sure what he wrote won't be well received at 1925 Giants Way I thought it was pretty balanced.
Jerry Shay didn't say Chris Mara was combing the country those are Duggan's words and he wasn't around in the 80's that's for sure. For those of you who don't know who Jerry Shay is; he was the 7th pick in the 1966 draft by the Vikings and ended his career with the Giants. He had a career ending broken leg in 1971. He was only 27 and a pretty good DT at the time. He became a scout for the Giants when his playing career ended and was kept on and promoted by George Young if I remember correctly (always questionable).
He is 77 years old now. He described his time with the Giants like this:
Does anyone really think that Chris Mara lived Jerry Shay's college scout life? When I traveled with the team - separately but stayed in the team hotels and there was literally zero security, we had access to anywhere we wanted to go. Chris Mara was there and he was the owners son. In a suit, sitting next his father on the team bus. During the college football season. Every time I was there from 86-90. I was at 2 or 3 away games each year. Maybe Chris Mara was a scout but he certainly didn't live like one.
George Young is the HOF for many reasons. He was a very smart man.
Someone forgot to tell the 2nd generation of Tisch Family owners. They blocked Chris Mara from becoming GM in 2007 but they left the back door open. The Mara's haven't had to use too many back doors in their gilded lives but they used this one to their advantage and the demise of the Giants.
“It doesn’t matter what you talk about in the meetings when they go home for dinner and they’re brothers and they’re family.” “It’s just a whole dynamic that you can’t fight.”
Likely Marc Ross as the source but the fact that he's bitter and an ass doesn't make it untrue.
“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”
And then there's Tim McDonnell. I hope this paragraph is the case. It certainly is a different story than the scouts on Twitter but they're not objective, one was recently fired by the Giants and the other is another teams scout who is anonymous.
I'm into the weeds here and asking questions I'll never have the answers to. But if you've been following all of this including Baghdad Pat's attempted take down of the Giants former scout on Twitter by basically telling him he should have been fired sooner, maybe we can thank Tim McDonnell for that. Of course the article also mentions how close he is with Chris Pettit and that there's a protected clique in the Giants front office that stays when the GM's and coaches go and how much that clique has to do with the current state of the team.
“He hasn’t cut his teeth long enough to be co-director of player personnel,” said a former Giants scout.
John Mara insisted last week that McDonnell “does not have any authority.” But his prominence undoubtedly has grown. When war rooms for the 2021 draft were limited to 10 people due to COVID-19 restrictions, McDonnell had a spot among the Giants’ top decision-makers.
The article also mentions that EVERYTHING gets run by John Mara, usually as a rubber stamp but everything means everything.
So far I think the Giants have done just about everything I could have hoped for in the GM search including firing Judge even though I still like him and think he was sabotaged and had no chance to succeed. I hope they make a good choice for GM and let him hire the coach and clean out the front office. It would be nice if the games went back to being the fun part of following the Giants not the palace intrigue of an emperor that has no clothes.
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”
I ecstatic that Gettleman is gone.
I am very happy that Judge is gone too.
Make no mistake, these are very positive moves and they bring hope that the franchise will turn things around. However, it will still take a Strong GM who can push through some added bullshit and necessary obstacles.
The quote above clearly defines the added obstacles.
Does it mean that the Next GM regime is doomed to fail before it even starts. NO, absolutely not. It just makes the job a bit harder and as Terps has said, it increases the probability of failure.
If you want you best chance of success, remove any and every obstacle, real or perceived. And make no mistake, perceptions matter. These are people in the building. They are not robots. There is a lot of unconscious psychology that just isn't helpful.
Let's put it this way. All things being equal, any given team only has about a 3% chance of winning a SB. That means that over a 10 year period that a front office only has about a 26% chance of success. Why reduce that even by 1% point, by creating a less than optimal structure.
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
+1
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
We’ll, us people (fans) would like to see a winning organization not dragged down by cronyism. From the cheerleading spin it would seem the employees enjoy the status quo jobs for life regardless of performance.
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I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
x1,000,000,000
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Again spot on.
Idiot owners involved in football operations and when the heat is turned up the x-rays alway show Mara has no spine, and he leads the next ring of HCs and GMs to slaughter.
Meat shields are an apropos name.
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In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
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In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
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In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
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All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
Yep, try to discredit the post (and thread) by belittling an error that, in the main, was correct. In a puff news story lauding CM as some wunderkind who could do double duty as a personnel guy and still Attend the KDerby as an owner (but in retrospect was a hugely damning article) it also reported that CM’s big find (Bradshaw) occurred because Kate happened to be doing a film on campus and learned of him and pointed him out to her father. So yeah, great scouting detective work canvassing the little know college backwaters….
He did not limit his involvement to off-the-field concerns.
I distinctly recalled this statement and, by google search, was able to find confirmation, from a 2016 article:
I take JM's statement at his most recent PC about off-the-field issues as a strategic public relations retreat in the face of criticism, rather a reflection of any real change in his role, up until now.
And I never took the "I just break the tie" characterization at face value either. This is what he does, or has been doing, with his life.
Maybe that will change.
bleacher report - ( New Window )
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
+1
Yup. Spineless cowards who pull the next patsy in front of them to take all the bullets. Rinse and repeat.
They are so bad at their job and are such weak leaders they cannot even stand tall in their convictions on who they hire even in the face of a little heat.
A sign of poor ethics, poor leadership, and zero confidence in their own decision making. Oh but we’re such a classy organization. GTFOH.
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Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
This. It shows how weak of a leader he is…
I know it’s not popular but if he had such strong conviction to hire the likes of McAdoo and Judge it would be great for once for him to tell the fans to just STFU — “We hired these guys for XYZ reasons and ABC legitimate reasons impeded progress, but we strongly believe in them 100%”.
Any great team leader will take bullets for their staff, but Mara pushes his guys off the plank the first signs of distress. It is weak beyond words.
Maras wishy washy convictions and feeding coaches and GMs to the slaughter house every few years makes me skeptical on this process unless the GM has power without the influence of others.
Their decision making card should be revoked once a real football guy comes in.