A bit disturbing just how dysfunctional the organization has become. Some insight from former personnel, both coaching and front office. Hoping our new GM has the authority, and the balls, to override the influence of Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara.
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
But it feels a bit untimely to me. I have no issues with the way they are moving forward and have a sense much of the dysfunction is inferred from the outside. Neither DG nor JJ have ever so much as implied as much. But regardless, we've beaten the hell out of this team the past month+ and they have a great opportunity in front of them to turn the corner. Seems to me that should be the story.
When Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,”
Quote:
“I thought he could be the one that could have taken over (as GM),” Walsh said. “But you have to understand, there’s two owners. The Tisches didn’t want the Maras to get too far ahead of them and the Maras didn’t want the Tisches to get too far ahead of them. So they couldn’t have another Mara after John took over. That wouldn’t sit well with the Tisch family.”
With the Tisches blocking Chris’ hire, the Giants turned to Reese, who had been in the organization since 1994 and played a key role in drafting the core of future Super Bowl rosters. According to Accorsi’s biography, a crestfallen Chris Mara did not attend Reese’s introductory news conference, but John Mara made clear his brother would remain an influential figure.
Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days. According to multiple current members of the organization, he has been less hands-on in recent years.
“I think he figures, ‘Fuck it, I’ll come around when I want to,'” a former Giants coach said. “He’s not answering to anybody.”
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
the Giants have absolutely stunk at scouting both college and pro players for a decade. That falls at the feet of those two guys to hire quality scouts and get the evaluation processes done correctly to set the stage for a draft board, UFA board, etc. Surely, someone(s) in the organize has to recognize they stink at acquiring quality NFL talent. Self-scouting is either also failing or perhaps no one's been brave enough to point it out.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Ouch. Hopefully a new GM cleans it up and quick...
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
RE: Ouch. Hopefully a new GM cleans it up and quick...
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
the Giants have absolutely stunk at scouting both college and pro players for a decade. That falls at the feet of those two guys to hire quality scouts and get the evaluation processes done correctly to set the stage for a draft board, UFA board, etc. Surely, someone(s) in the organize has to recognize they stink at acquiring quality NFL talent. Self-scouting is either also failing or perhaps no one's been brave enough to point it out.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Yes. Also Chris Pettit has been here for a long time and seems tightly tied to Chris Mara and his "team" or "guys" in front office.
Will they allow this new GM to start removing some of the guys in the scouting and personnel offices (Pettit, Sternfeld, etc.)?
Current and former employees say McDonnell is close to director of college scouting Chris Pettit, who has also climbed the ladder during the team’s tailspin. An area scout for 13 years before getting promoted by Gettleman in 2018, Pettit’s job could be in jeopardy with a new GM given the Giants’ poor draft record, but some wonder if he’ll be spared due to his relationship with McDonnell. “There’s a core group in the protected class in that building,” a former front-office member said.
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
It’s not a short fix.
Agree on a new competent GM that is strong at the player evaluation process turning it around.
But improvement can come relatively soon, and then you build on that and move forward...
Article rehashes everything we already know about the organization
Here’s the only question going forward: Will JM give the new GM the power to totally restructure the personnel, scouting and coaching depts?
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make.
is a lack of incentivization and a lack of accountability. This is a really common problem in companies. When you lack these things, then the smartest decision is to agree with everything Chris Mara says because then you'll make ownership happy and be more likely to stay on.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
Article rehashes everything we already know about the organization
Here’s the only question going forward: Will JM give the new GM the power to totally restructure the personnel, scouting and coaching depts?
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
Article rehashes everything we already know about the organization
Here’s the only question going forward: Will JM give the new GM the power to totally restructure the personnel, scouting and coaching depts?
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
Giants fans who think these issues are "in the past" are clearly deluding themselves. But it's not surprising. They just don't want to admit the scope of the problem so they bury their heads in the sand.
It's also pretty clear that Mara was looking for any excuse in the world to keep Joe Judge. That in itself is damning beyond belief.
sounds as if john mara doesn't even recognize that his brother and nephew being in prominent player personnel positions is a problem from an accountability standpoint.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
is a lack of incentivization and a lack of accountability. This is a really common problem in companies. When you lack these things, then the smartest decision is to agree with everything Chris Mara says because then you'll make ownership happy and be more likely to stay on.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
Agreed. Disagreements are better handled with more a sophisticated approach...
Read the article buts it's getting to point of the less I know about the dysfunction the better for me as a fan since the problem is from the owners and no matter how much losing occurs those guys are never going away in my life time.
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
The article was fantastic and I do think it really refines
1. I think Mara thinks that his family members have been shorted because of their last name. What I mean by that is that Chris and Tim have "earned their stripes" (he used that phrase when specifically talking about Tim) but that because of their last name they can't get the titles they deserve. And, in some ways, he is right in the sense that both of them have put in the time (no clue if they are GM material or not). But what Mara doesn't recognize, and still does not seem to recognize, is that while they may have "earned their stripes" the accountability question remains unresolved. If you want Chris and (later Tim) to run the team, let him run the team (as Duggan mentioned with the Cowboys). If you and Tisch decide that is not the case, you cannot have this 800 pound gorilla on the back of people who are held accountable. It just can't work.
2. I think the Mara's always envisioned John running the business end of the operation and Chris running the football end. Tisch put an end to that notion because it now seems the "football guy" in the family (McDonell) is being groomed to being the next John Mara (basically president of the Mara's interests). It also begs the question why is John running this organization over Chris. Chris seems more qualified to do that. Chris may be an asset as an owner in charge of the football half of the business because he does have a big background, where John is just some empty suit who won the lucky sperm club contest of being the first born in a family that owned a football team.
the most damning item in the article is that Tim McDonald holds the same title as 3 of our candidates for GM, which is a lesser title than Chris Mara holds, and yet we're told to believe that these family members do not make any decisions.
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
Chris Mara isn't being fired regardless of the new gm's clout. The best thing he will be able to do is minimize Mara's impact on any personnel decisions. Treat him like the crazy uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. Smile and nod, but that's the extent of the acknowledgement.
Much has been made here about the vilification of Chris Mara, and this article I think presents the issue fairly. It is not that he is bad at his job or part of the problem (in fact the article implies he is pretty good at it). The point is that his ownership makes him unaccountable for his job performance. No matter what house cleaning is done in personnel, he is safe. That is not the way to run a successful organization.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
Much has been made here about the vilification of Chris Mara, and this article I think presents the issue fairly. It is not that he is bad at his job or part of the problem (in fact the article implies he is pretty good at it). The point is that his ownership makes him unaccountable for his job performance. No matter what house cleaning is done in personnel, he is safe. That is not the way to run a successful organization.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
And, if they are always going to be there, intuitively their decisions will always carry more weight because they are related to your boss and they are not going anywhere. So, in some ways, they are the defacto heads of football even if they (the Mara family) does not think that is the case.
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
We’re moving on with the new, that’s all that matters to me..Let’s see what transpires
Hopefully it's articles like this that gets the ball rolling into the new. The organization unfortunately needs their faces rubbed in this to initiate change IMO.
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
Flowers- poor technique, poor hand usage, likes to head butt, doesn't take to coaching, big and strong. If that is scouting report he doesn't get taken in 1st round. What did scouting report say?
Toney- injury prone, likes guns, mercurial, great when healthy,Does that sound like a first round pick?
Jones- Tall, good arm, smart, tough, can't read a defense, slow processor. Number 6 pick in first round really?
Odel - great talent, head case.first round really?
Eli Apple - talent but immature. Really first round?
And so it goes. One common thread is Giants don't seem to know the mind of the person they are drafting. Seems like they just work off measurable.
Clear our personnel department is the root cause of all our losing
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
“There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
it matters, and it's different than in was '05-'12. chris mara wasn't VP of player personnel when the giants won their last superbowl, or at least hadn't been there long enough to do anything. timm wasn't in his position.
does a new GM have the authority to put his own people into player personnel? or are chris and timm untouchable? is chris pettit untouchable bc he is timm's friend?
i appreciate your positivisity. but the pessimist in me is half expecting their preferred GM candidate to decline the position based on the untouchables/protected class in the front office.
this is reportedly why dodds had no interest in the position.
RE: RE: Seems to me that Mara/Tisch were around for
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
Ron, can’t disagree, though SBs are all that matter to this fan at this point..All I’m trying to say is let’s move on. We’re going outside the organization and not within, a departure, probably a welcome one, so it shouldn’t be same old, same old..🤞🤞🤞
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
Agreed. Also that the questions during last week's media session, the Pat Leonard article, this article are all putting noise out there to at least annoy them. Maybe they are listening...
The biggest indicator of dysfunction is they gave Daniel Jones
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
Today I learned: It was Mara himself that led to Eli's Benching
In the 2017 draft, McAdoo coveted Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes — “I’d love to get my fucking hands on him,” a front-office source recalled McAdoo saying in a pre-draft meeting after attending Mahomes’ pro day workout — but the Giants stuck with the 23rd pick and took tight end Evan Engram.
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
If we have credible information about this, then yeah, I agree. But if this is fans and media speculating and theorizing with no information beyond the team has been bad behind shitty GMs, then I'm not going to put much stock in it. So my question is, what is the source? All I see is claims and opinions.
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
Totally agree that Reese & Co. missed the boat bigtime for years on not finding, for lack of a better phrase, "just good football players".
So many guys that not only never deserved being drafted when they did, but many who weren't close to being NFL quality. Those drafts around 2011-2013 were as bad as it gets...
It's clear that John Mara is a horrendous owner...
Much has been made here about the vilification of Chris Mara, and this article I think presents the issue fairly. It is not that he is bad at his job or part of the problem (in fact the article implies he is pretty good at it). The point is that his ownership makes him unaccountable for his job performance. No matter what house cleaning is done in personnel, he is safe. That is not the way to run a successful organization.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
4 super bowls in that span... Is this an indictment?
Chris M is good at his job? He, and supposedly nephew Tim, have a good eye for talent.
Yet, the Giants suck at acquiring talent. Chris and Tim either suck at recognizing talent, or suck at persuading others in the room to see things their way. John M openly admits to believing in C and T opinions. That's a lot of weight, official or not.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
The Giants built the foundation for their last championship era with men like Coughlin, Accorsi, Reese, and Gettleman in positions that were proportional to their skills.
Those four were hired when Wellington was still the principal decision maker. He was still humbled enough to let the football guys mostly operate, and seemingly only weighed in on coach and GM hires.
There weren’t Maras in the personnel department when that core was being developed from 2004 forward.
The Giants need talent up and down the personnel department and coaching staff. The results are the results, the guys there now suck.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
RE: Today I learned: It was Mara himself that led to Eli's Benching
The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
Hopefully he is next, if any of the anonymous squabbling is true. But the point remains that they don’t just fire coaches.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
The Belichick quip sure stuck with me too, I think it was enormously enlightening and to the heart.
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Nothing shocking either. Seems Mara wanted a plan to succeed Eli earlier, but had to battle nostalgia. I’m not gonna pound the Giants for that.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
Nothing shocking either. Seems Mara wanted a plan to succeed Eli earlier, but had to battle nostalgia. I’m not gonna pound the Giants for that.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
in this article is all true, then why in the world would anyone want this job? Even if there are not very many GM jobs. Why take a chance at never getting another GM job again because of how you are likely to look once you're fired from the Giants GM position?
If what is said is true, any GM is working with a severe handicap.
more needs to be done internally, there's no reason to stop now except to protect a core group as rumored. Don't stop at 75%, push through to 100%. Otherwise, round and round we go.
The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
The whole point of the article that it is not a complete house cleaning. New GM and HC. But there are people in the personnel department who have been there for years and, regardless of performance, will stay in those roles and have influence.
How independent is a GM that is interviewing for a job with someone who will report to him? A guy who will absolutely be there longer than him and has his bosses ear?
The GM will have a John Mara above him and Chris Mara working for him. Those Maras are brothers and will have their own discussions outside the GM. In 10 years that GM will likely not be here, but both John and Chris Mara will.
I don't understand how anybody sees no problem with that structure.
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
I think you're whistling past the graveyard a bit here. The most recent SB teams were put together mostly under Wellington's guidance. Sure, John took over in 2005, but the GM, HC, QB and core of the team were in place. Once that broke down, they have not been able to replicate it.
The fact that Chris and Tim have zero accountability in the personnel dept is a problem, and a big one. Are scouts and other personnel staff going to be more loyal to the GM or to the 2 owners cosplaying as shadow GM's? They know the GM can be fired, but the owners can't, so it's human nature to protect your job, and keep the unfireable owners happy.
I would have to think that any of the highly regarded GM candidates will ask about separation of powers, and I'm sure they'll be told they have free reign, but will John Mara tell his brother and/or nephew to back off? We'll see.
Nothing shocking either. Seems Mara wanted a plan to succeed Eli earlier, but had to battle nostalgia. I’m not gonna pound the Giants for that.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
reports suggest mara in fact wanted to retain judge and it was tisch who forced the issue (per reports, it was also tisch who wanted to blow it all up in 2019 when shurmur was fired, but deferred to mara's wishes to let gettleman "finish what he started").
so not really sure how much credit we can give to mara here.
Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
RE: Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
That’s all this fan is asking..
As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
In a thread recently and was told I was overreacting. Turns out there was cause for concern.
But sunlight is the best disinfectant and the Mara family is finally in the spotlight for their meddling. I have to believe the Maras are uncomfortable with all the criticism and since public perception means everything to them, they'll give — reluctantly, but they'll give. Bc if it goes badly again, all the fingers will point straight at them. They can't hide anymore.
I remain hopeful the new GM will have authority to do his job now. Let's pray.
If we have credible information about this, then yeah, I agree. But if this is fans and media speculating and theorizing with no information beyond the team has been bad behind shitty GMs, then I'm not going to put much stock in it. So my question is, what is the source? All I see is claims and opinions.
They've sucked for a decade with multiple GM's and HC's, who get fired and replaced. Scouts get fired and replaced. Guess who doesn't get fired and replaced? Chris and Tim.
How can you "clean house" when two owners are squatting in the big bedrooms and won't leave? Asking for evidence is futile, the Mara's will never acknowledge any. We have heard anecdotal evidence of Chris's meddling. There was the report a couple of years ago that when McAdoo approached them about trading up for Mahomes, a group of personnel folks laughed at him and said that he didn't need to worry, that they had found the best QB in the draft - Davis Webb. Jordan Ranaan confirmed that he was told it was Chris Mara who said that.
While I think the idea that McAdoo wanted Mahomes is a bit overblown, even without Chris's interference, would Reese have paid a ransom to move up 13 or so spots? But it does point out an example of Chris Mara exerting his influence in a personnel decision.
Besides that, the idea that "they don't do anything" doesn't quite jibe with the "they're really good at their jobs" claim. Which is it?
We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Re: Seems to me that Mara/Tisch were around for...
Seems logical to assume GM candidates are aware of these issues, that chain of command, org. structure, decision-making around scouting and personnel have been discussed during interviews and will be discussed further during the next round. Before this whole process started, the site was inundated with comments that these issues would scare away top-tier candidates. That does not seem to be the case. We'll see what the next round brings. I think it's less likely a new GM from outside the organization will be intimidated by how things have been done and by whom. Again, we'll see. And I know it's an unpopular take, but I think John Mara is painfully aware he's responsible for this mess and is sincere in doing what's necessary to clean it up, including stepping away and empowering the new GM to rebuild the organization.
RE: Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
I am happy to wait and see what happens. If they hire a GM an announce a change in the personnel department and that Chris Mara and McDonnell will no longer be there, that is certainly addressing the problem. I will laud that decision if it is made.
But I am guessing none of the GM candidates walked into the interview with John and Chris Mara and announced part of his plan to overhaul the talent was to move Chris out, and Chris said "Gee, I really like that! We should hire this guy!"
Without those changes, this isn't a housecleaning. It is bringing in some different voices.
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
Lost me when liking guns is used to discredit Toney
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
goes to my Sunday thread re. who is the football person
guiding the GM search? If it ain't no adult from
outside the org, it's biz as usual at the family
laundromat. Giants need help with qualified new
managers at the top and getting rid of the
entrenched anchors
when the win the box (front 7 and OL/TE). Just about every issue has stemmed from this fundamental issue. Watching the playoff games shows that the more physical team is the one advancing still today. Change the GM, QB and HC as often as you want but until this simple fact is acknowledged and dealt with expect more pain.
The sad thing is the Giants used to be very good at building in these areas. Hopefully the new GM gets them back on the right path to where the Giants can get back to being Giants again.
2012 draft is a good reference point to where a huge shift in team building occurred and continued. I am hopeful that Mara has seen the light.
RE: Lost me when liking guns is used to discredit Toney
sounds as if john mara doesn't even recognize that his brother and nephew being in prominent player personnel positions is a problem from an accountability standpoint.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
RE: RE: Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
I am happy to wait and see what happens. If they hire a GM an announce a change in the personnel department and that Chris Mara and McDonnell will no longer be there, that is certainly addressing the problem. I will laud that decision if it is made.
But I am guessing none of the GM candidates walked into the interview with John and Chris Mara and announced part of his plan to overhaul the talent was to move Chris out, and Chris said "Gee, I really like that! We should hire this guy!"
Without those changes, this isn't a housecleaning. It is bringing in some different voices.
I agree with you. Perception is reality and even if they don't meddle or use their undue influence--it still exists. If they are still there, it's a problem going forward. I am skeptical that the Mara's will fix the problem, I even think, as I said earlier, that they think Chris especially and Tim to lesser degree have been hampered by their family ties ("earned their stripes"), but I also think, as others have pointed out, that Mara gets the criticism and the really bad PR that goes with it, Tisch is more involved and fed up, and there is at least reason to think that change may come. We will find out soon enough.
because he felt the former was his best shot and it would also show their overall QB options were poor as Eli declined. McAdoo was not wrong, he just had a really poor hand to try and force the issue, and got sideswiped basically by a chunk of the fanbase (and Mara) who couldn't see or admit Eli was toast.
RE: RE: Lost me when liking guns is used to discredit Toney
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings,
I think it might be better having Chris in the meetings. It'll show what kind of balls the GM has and he'll get a no BS answer without anything being filtered.
"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
Look at your posts above - you're the one lecturing us on what does and doesn't matter...a couple days after parachuting back in following another horrendous season.
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
the only reason eli was benched for smith and not webb is because webb was so bad at quarterback that the coaching staff couldn't justify putting him on the field.
which begs the question, who was responsible for drafting davis webb again?
We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
+1. I've also been around since 1956 and have shared the joy and the angst and well as some perspective.
RE: As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
Good for Mara for the moves he's already made. I'll believe he's going to carry out the rest of it, and give the GM top authority over personnel/scouting, when I actually see it. There is nothing about Mara that says he deserves the benefit of the doubt going forward
RE: Today I learned: It was Mara himself that led to Eli's Benching
That was out there in the media. It just got underplayed. I got into long debates about this to prove Mara used McAdoo and Reese as fall guys for HIS DECISION.
Naturally, most of BBI looked the other way because there was no way classy John Mara would do that.
I really hope any GM taking this job knows exactly what they are walking into. Unless they are asking tough questions to Mara there is a chance the wool will be pulled over their eyes.
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
the only reason eli was benched for smith and not webb is because webb was so bad at quarterback that the coaching staff couldn't justify putting him on the field.
which begs the question, who was responsible for drafting davis webb again?
Not exactly. Coaching staff had Smith as #2 on the depth chart and he probably was a good soldier as a backup even if his days as a reliable starter were over. Coaches also probably hadn't spent anytime getting Webb developed whatsoever so they were never going to take that unknown chance no matter if fans were looking to see "what happens".
Ans completely understand the clusterfuck. Just not entirely sure what good it does to keep harping on it instead of focusing on getting things right this time
If you don't think the front office situation with the Giants is a big deal, great. You don't need to and nobody needs to convince you that it is. But if you think it is an issue, there is no reason you should be told it isn't. It's actually fine to have more than one point of view expresses here. This is not North Korea.
reports suggest mara in fact wanted to retain judge and it was tisch who forced the issue (per reports, it was also tisch who wanted to blow it all up in 2019 when shurmur was fired, but deferred to mara's wishes to let gettleman "finish what he started").
so not really sure how much credit we can give to mara here.
Judge isn’t here. Regardless of how it was arrived, the decision was made to fire him by ownership.
RE: RE: As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
Good for Mara for the moves he's already made. I'll believe he's going to carry out the rest of it, and give the GM top authority over personnel/scouting, when I actually see it. There is nothing about Mara that says he deserves the benefit of the doubt going forward
Totally agree. I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt either. But these were the publicly announced plans so it pleases me to hear this much as opposed to digging for "Who Shot Kennedy?"...
We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
Look at your posts above - you're the one lecturing us on what does and doesn't matter...a couple days after parachuting back in following another horrendous season.
Ok...
I take a yearly sabbatical every year and plan on returning at season’s end towards FA..Nothing new there. This year was earlier than usual because it was better to leave BBi behind than to read same posts on every thread. Even if we tried to scroll past you which I tried to do, your incessant same old same old always caught the eye. Some of us didn’t agree with you, but acknowledged you COULD BE RIGHT, yet that wasn’t enough for you, you had to continue to pound out the same points ad infinitum. We got it, back in the beginning, but yet you continued the same lines without stop. It was time to take a break to avoid arguing the same points and so I did. Didn’t even lurk until season’s end.
I wasn’t lecturing anyone or didn’t mean to. I was speaking FOR ME and what was important FOR ME and reasonably stated that we should wait and see what the “outside” regime might hold for us. If that’s lecturing, then guilty as charged
Ans completely understand the clusterfuck. Just not entirely sure what good it does to keep harping on it instead of focusing on getting things right this time
Remove Chris Mara from player personnel and may his title an Executive SVP strictly under ownership. New GM gets full control to overhaul football operations & should be able to bring in his number 2.
Ans completely understand the clusterfuck. Just not entirely sure what good it does to keep harping on it instead of focusing on getting things right this time
You know none of us are in the front office right?
Blind positivity from fans isn't the same as the front office getting things right.
"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
Holy shit. That is unbelievable - great catch there. That is so incriminating. Damn. These guys are so lazy.
Remove Chris Mara from player personnel and may his title an Executive SVP strictly under ownership. New GM gets full control to overhaul football operations & should be able to bring in his number 2.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
Yep, that is the prudent play. Still have Tim though so folks will want to keep digging deeper...
Remove Chris Mara from player personnel and may his title an Executive SVP strictly under ownership. New GM gets full control to overhaul football operations & should be able to bring in his number 2.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
This makes sense. Or let Chris and Timmy play in their own sandbox, while the new GM builds a entire scouting department separate from Chris Mara's.
"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
Holy shit. That is unbelievable - great catch there. That is so incriminating. Damn. These guys are so lazy.
It's incredible. All three guys are similar - flawed passers who has a good weekend at the Senior Bowl and probably look like guys he'd want Kate or Rooney to bring home.
"Mara family members in the front office aren't boogeymen responsible for Giants' demise. But they have maintained prominent roles while many others have been replaced."
References in the story seem to support John Mara's contention about Chris Mara's and Tim McDonnell's competence. So is the point they should have resigned or been forced out because of optics or public relations or to cover up for Gettleman's abject failures? It's ludicrous to even think this would be a possibility. I get the organizational dilemma this may pose but still think this is being overhyped.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
That's fair, but Bradshaw's talent was well known, it was the criminal charges that pushed him down the draft board. Having an owner sign off on drafting him makes a big difference, but I'm not sure it's an example of his eye for talent.
Giants fans who think these issues are "in the past" are clearly deluding themselves. But it's not surprising. They just don't want to admit the scope of the problem so they bury their heads in the sand.
It's also pretty clear that Mara was looking for any excuse in the world to keep Joe Judge. That in itself is damning beyond belief.
John Mara doesn't know what he is doing.
It’s clear as day. The fact that Mara is interviewing the GM candidates while retaining his title in the personnel department is so problematic. But the people that constantly choose to view things in a positive light when it pertains to the Giants, in spite of a decade of futility, will continue to do so
"Mara family members in the front office aren't boogeymen responsible for Giants' demise. But they have maintained prominent roles while many others have been replaced."
References in the story seem to support John Mara's contention about Chris Mara's and Tim McDonnell's competence. So is the point they should have resigned or been forced out because of optics or public relations or to cover up for Gettleman's abject failures? It's ludicrous to even think this would be a possibility. I get the organizational dilemma this may pose but still think this is being overhyped.
The problem is not that Chris or Tim are inherently bad at their jobs. The point is that they can keep their jobs regardless of how well they do them, and they have a direct line to the owners that others don't.
This would be like working where you work but the owner's daughter reports to you. She may be good at her job, but you are never going to view her as just another staff or decide to let her go because her work is subpar. She has outsized influence that has nothing to do with the org chart.
But the people that constantly choose to view things in a positive light when it pertains to the Giants, in spite of a decade of futility, will continue to do so
The problem is not that Chris or Tim are inherently bad at their jobs. The point is that they can keep their jobs regardless of how well they do them, and they have a direct line to the owners that others don't.
yeah, but the fact that our talent acquisition has been so awful since Chris has been "running" the dept sort of points to them being bad at their jobs
Remove Chris Mara from player personnel and may his title an Executive SVP strictly under ownership. New GM gets full control to overhaul football operations & should be able to bring in his number 2.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
Either call Chris "Co-Owner", and remove his from his role, or role his current role under the GM, and that is whom he reports to. That way there is a legitimate guard rail installed.
Look, this transformation only works IF Mara is honest and truly gives the entire football operations and accountability to the new GM. If that happens, and the GM is the right choice, we will begin to emerge out of the darkness.
The problem is not that Chris or Tim are inherently bad at their jobs. The point is that they can keep their jobs regardless of how well they do them, and they have a direct line to the owners that others don't.
yeah, but the fact that our talent acquisition has been so awful since Chris has been "running" the dept sort of points to them being bad at their jobs
And even if they themselves have some eye for talent and the lousy work has been done by others, it's been Chris' role for the last 10 years to recognize the problem and get rid of the people responsible. So at a minimum, he's bad at that part of his job. Or, we can just go with the premise that Chris actually has no role, and everything has been the GM's fault
Remove Chris Mara from player personnel and may his title an Executive SVP strictly under ownership. New GM gets full control to overhaul football operations & should be able to bring in his number 2.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
Either call Chris "Co-Owner", and remove his from his role, or role his current role under the GM, and that is whom he reports to. That way there is a legitimate guard rail installed.
Look, this transformation only works IF Mara is honest and truly gives the entire football operations and accountability to the new GM. If that happens, and the GM is the right choice, we will begin to emerge out of the darkness.
You can remove his title, but what does that accomplish? He owns the team. As multiple people pointed out in the article, he’s still going to have more sway than most people. It will be telling if assurances are given or his presence deters any of these guys from taking the job if offered
Ans completely understand the clusterfuck. Just not entirely sure what good it does to keep harping on it instead of focusing on getting things right this time
Apparently a lot of blind positivity around here that needs to be handled.
RE: As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
But the people that constantly choose to view things in a positive light when it pertains to the Giants, in spite of a decade of futility, will continue to do so
I definitely have to stop doing this...
I have this disgusting cycle I've found myself in as a fan.
This time of year - I hate the Giants, totally done with them, just down right horrified in the general direction of the team.
Then comes the draft/FA season hits where I get all excited about the players coming in, the franchise turning it around with certain draft picks and/or signings, the projections of how certain players will succeed in the NFL and/or how they project as a Giant.
Then I'm disappointed in the Giants draft. I wish they had taken (fill in the blank) instead of (literally every 1st round pick they've made the past 10 years), I get down on the GM and the coaching staff for decisions they made and what I would have done instead and so on.
Then camp hits and I'm super pumped and talk myself into how the Giants are going to turn it around despite hating everything they did 3 months ago. I talk myself into SB being the right pick at #2 or re-watch DJ play games from the season prior to convince myself that there's something to get pumped about.
Then the season starts and the Giants are eliminated by the end of October and I suffer through the rest of the season.
Then the cycle starts over.
I think that was the point and the timing of the article
I really hope any GM taking this job knows exactly what they are walking into. Unless they are asking tough questions to Mara there is a chance the wool will be pulled over their eyes.
I don't care if Chris and Tim have jobs or what about their titles. Titles are a big NYC thing-even the janitors have titles, and if I run into one more "Managing Director", I'll throw up. So the titles are meaningless.
But they have to do the job and do it well. If Chris wants to play scout and no one cares or listens to it, fine. Same with Tim. If they want a voice, they need to do the job. Scouting by watching the Senior Bowl ain't it.
In comment 15559277 Ned In Atlanta said:
Either call Chris "Co-Owner", and remove his from his role, or role his current role under the GM, and that is whom he reports to. That way there is a legitimate guard rail installed.
Look, this transformation only works IF Mara is honest and truly gives the entire football operations and accountability to the new GM. If that happens, and the GM is the right choice, we will begin to emerge out of the darkness.
You can remove his title, but what does that accomplish? He owns the team. As multiple people pointed out in the article, he’s still going to have more sway than most people. It will be telling if assurances are given or his presence deters any of these guys from taking the job if offered [/quote]
If you remove the title, it gives the new GM a chance to hire his own head of player personnel.
sounds as if john mara doesn't even recognize that his brother and nephew being in prominent player personnel positions is a problem from an accountability standpoint.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
Chris Mara, and to a lesser extent McConnell who hasn't been in his position that long, need to get a good hard look from John and Tisch.
we're interviewing directors of personnel and college scouting for our own GM position. Having "un-hireables" in that position for us completely breaks the Giants way.
i'm not even against the giants way, it makes perfect sense to hire from within the company in pretty much every business model, but we should be a FARM for future GMs.
In the 2017 draft, McAdoo coveted Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes — “I’d love to get my fucking hands on him,” a front-office source recalled McAdoo saying in a pre-draft meeting after attending Mahomes’ pro day workout — but the Giants stuck with the 23rd pick and took tight end Evan Engram.
At least we got an undersized TE who can't block or catch consistently.
“They still hold onto ’07, ’11, LT, Phil Simms — at some point you’ve got to say, ‘That was awesome. You’ll always have that,'” the former staffer said. “But you have to realize football has changed a lot even in the past couple of years.”
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
Holy shit. That is unbelievable - great catch there. That is so incriminating. Damn. These guys are so lazy.
It's incredible. All three guys are similar - flawed passers who has a good weekend at the Senior Bowl and probably look like guys he'd want Kate or Rooney to bring home.
In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
The titles of President and Vice President don’t indicate any involvement (at least to me) in the personnel department. And the Coordinator position sounds like it is someone learning the job, not an SVP of Player Personnel like Chris Mara.
I think everyone knows Colbert is the man making the decisions.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Davis Webb thing was infuriating
In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
The Mara/"postseason games" thing is alarming in terms of how many picks the Giants have targeted from the Senior Bowl. Suggests significant influence in the draft room. The last few years:
2018
Kyle Lauletta
BJ Hill
2019
Daniel Jones
Oshane Ximines
Corey Ballentine
2020
Carter Coughlin
Cam Brown
Darnay Holmes
Matt Peart
TJ Brunson
Ben Bredeson (not drafted, but acquired in trade)
2021
Kadarius Toney
Aaron Robinson
Elerson Smith
Quincy Roche (not drafted)
Rodarius Williams
The Mara/"postseason games" thing is alarming in terms of how many picks the Giants have targeted from the Senior Bowl. Suggests significant influence in the draft room. The last few years:
Why travel around the country? The Senior Bowl is one stop shopping for draft picks!
RE: RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
Sounds good to me, Sean. Let's hope they get it right this time.
RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
think of the Senior Bowl as a Cliff's Notes to the draft
Duggan is a terrific reporter who doesn't appear to have either an axe to grind or seem particularly worried about stepping on anyone's toes in the organization. He's very fair minded. He got a lot of real information, as opposed to speculation. And while it's not entirely clear still the exact role either Chris Mara or Tim McDonnel play in player acquisition, they are pretty clearly part of the football operation. When you have owners who are enmeshed in the day to day running of the team, the relationships they have with people in the building can complicate the ability to make change. One of Duggan's observations is that McDonnell is apparently close to Petit. We'll see what happens, but that seems exactly the sort of problem that even a new GM with a supposed mandate may not be able to overcome. If McDonnell wants Petit to stay, does the new GM think that's a battle worth fighting from day one? But that's how organizational change ends up constrained.
Quote:
Current and former employees say McDonnell is close to director of college scouting Chris Pettit, who has also climbed the ladder during the team’s tailspin. An area scout for 13 years before getting promoted by Gettleman in 2018, Pettit’s job could be in jeopardy with a new GM given the Giants’ poor draft record, but some wonder if he’ll be spared due to his relationship with McDonnell.
RE: RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
bidnis is bidnis
shocking how the Giants and Steelers manage to win so much...
it will never get better strictly because of the owner, and ignoring the distinct probability that owners tend to look very good or very bad based solely on who they hire at GM and HC, fine, go ahead and live that way.
But just know that the pro landscape is littered with proof that so called "BAD" owners do in fact win. They can love for ten years straight and then win for the following ten years based on the fact that the "bad" owner finally hired the right guy.
Take a wild guess what all these owners have in common:
Donald Sterling
George Steinbrenner
Wellington and John Mara
James Dolan
I can't think of any more for now, but I am 100% certain there are many many more. And what do they have in common? They all endured years of failure and in some cases scandal and ugly shit, only to also see that same owner preside over a long run of success or in Dolan's case he's done just fine with the Rangers will the Knicks have struggled BUT the knicks now look to be on the right track.
There is so much evidence to support the claims that Owners ebb and flow thanks to who they hire and fire and less data suggesting that their very existence or "influence" impacts wins and losses, it's virtually beyond reproach. You don't have to believe but when you belittle or condemn or mock or talk the same fucking tired shit day after day, well, here we are.
Believe what you want. We've seen this very franchise win and win big. We've see this very owner win and win big. But now he cannot win anymore just because you say so? Give us more than that. Proof.
I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
maybe Mara was this big bad troll the last ten years and maybe now he's learned a lesson. Maybe Chris has too much power, but I think in the end if we were run by a better GM and HC we'd have a much better record. If we draft the right guys in 18-19 we are in better shape today.
Hire the right people and let's hope for the best.
The Rangers have not made the playoffs in 5 years but I agree the arrow with the Rangers is pointing up and the Knicks aren't an embarrassment anymore even though they have a 0.0 chance of making the finals anytime soon.
George Steinbrenner is a poor example. Without getting too far into it his story is somewhat similar to Wellington's. When George was the GM the Yankees were the butt of jokes and won nothing. When Gabe Paul and Gene Michael were the GM they built the championship teams George got credit for despite him not because of him.
Donald Sterling lost for 30 years. His teams were a joke for decades.
These are not good examples and John Mara won in 07 and 11 and then he ended the George Young organizational model and here we are.
I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
Reese probably should have been fired too. They were both fired first for bad football teams.
Like I said, Mara has made plenty of mistakes. Not disputing that. I dispute the claims that unless Chris is removed and Mara is forced to commit seppuku in times square, we won't ever win again.
And I gotta be honest, I don't buy for one fucking second that Mara used them as shields with the whole QB debate. If the Giants were winning they don't get fired. If McAdoo doesn't lose the team he doesn't get fired. I don't even get that line. What does that even prove?
by the same people telling me this shit that James Dolan would NEVER EVER EVER allow for a Knicks team to rebuild. Now we have the same owner presiding over a Knicks team that has probably compiled one of the better young talent bases in the entire NBA.
Mara is the problem until he isn't the problem. If and when he hires the right HC and GM, he will no longer be the problem. I promise. Hold me to it. He has hired the wrong people. That's why he's firing them 2 years later.
What these people say in press conferences doesn't matter much
Look at their actions: Chris Mara is in the room interviewing GM candidates.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
The Giants most definitely do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. We agree there. No one should be betting any overs or setting aside playoff ticket money anytime soon. When they win again, they win again. Until then, no amount of hiring the right GM or HC will matter to me. It will look good, it might even feel pretty good, and I will at least hold hope some hope that maybe they finally got shit right, but I won't believe anything until I see it.
If you think I am waving any pom poms with these posts think again. Not everyone who disagree with you is looking at things with rose colored glasses. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the latest group think that Mara will inevitably ruin things. There is a ton of evidence to support the claim that if Mara likes who is running things he stays the fuck out of the way. Even at times to a fault. And you know that.
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
Again, see my post before this. I am not holding out hope for shit. I just disagree with this aggressive take on Mara. Don't know why someone can't say that's a pretty intense take while still thinking the team sucks.
RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
a perfect microcosm for the problems of the Giants organization.
Operating with much worse data, poor results, yet somehow still brazenly confident in the "process"
I think that is the reason I can't understand why anyone would say they are serious about real change or this is business as usual.
WE don't have enough data right now. This could very easily be us getting our pound of flesh so they can keep their ultimate control. Or they could have realized that unless they really cede some power and change this is going to get worse.
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
And this is even more reason why it was bullshit Gettleman “retired”, I will argue that DID matter.
RE: RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
some of you make it sound like MAra's very existence here will prevent the team from ever winning again. I don't buy that. I think that's an extreme take on things even if Duggan conjured up some anecdotal evidence. He's a good writer so I don't doubt this stuff but it doesn't prove the claim that Mara will continue to sabotage things.
You want to believe that be my guest. Pretty dark and morbid take on things. Especially when I have seen some brutal owners win and win big.
RE: RE: RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
Ok fine, I don't doubt it. But that doesn't mean we never win again, lol.
He's had a brutal decade. Let's hope for the best moving forward. I can't do anything more than that.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
RE: Until they make changes in scouting/pro personnel
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Rudolph is a less important canary. Let’s see if Tim protects him.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
I think internally Siam is the biggest litmus test. It can be said that he more clearly sucked at his job than Abrams, ESPECIALLY considering JJ's "spreadsheet" comment
But like Abrams all we heard was what a "star" he is.
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Agreed.
If the people that work in Scouting/Pro Personnel aren't
good at what they are doing, then it is up to the GM to implement good standards and processes including evaluating and changing out underperformers.
If Gettleman, and Reese before him, didn't do those things then it's because they themselves weren't good at what they were doing, and/or relied more on themselves (hubris) to make the right decisions.
Either way...find a competent GM that can display he has strong attributes at how a player evaluation process should operate, and things will get better for the NYG...
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
That is going to be the watershed for sure, specifically on Jones.
If Jones is retained, then (1) the GM has been told by ownership that they believe Jones should be given at least another year to be evaluated. Or (2) the GM actually likes Jones, which means he's probably the wrong choice for the role.
if this extensive GM search wasn't happening like this. But again, this nice sexy list of names doesn't ensure anything. This new GM still has to crush it here. And the HC has to be very good. I'll wait until we are winning games before I feel confident but I wouldn't posses a shred of hope if Judge was here and the GM search wasn't looking as good as it is.
Based on conjecture. DG was a putz. From day 1 when the plan was to draft a RB with the #2 overall pick and to win one more with Eli it was clear we were in for bad decision making at the top and we've endured four years of it. On the notion of deeper issues caused by Mara family involvement I have no direct knowledge of. There is smoke, yes, but sources unknown --twitter, Mark Ross??? It's a believable story, no doubt, and aligns with current wave of Mara hate, but that doesn't make it true. I don't know everything, but I know what I know and know what I don't know. This one falls into the category of the latter.
Who the hell would want to work for these A-holes?
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
for YEARS I've been arguing with people here about the Mara's and Chris Mara. When I started posting about Chris Mara, to say that it wasn't met with enthusiasm or agreement would be an understatement. I promise I'm going to try to stop posting about Chris Mara now that the curtain has finally been pulled back and the reason the Giants are such a mess is becoming obvious. But when I began to talk about how the Giants were being run there certainly wasn't any mainstream media backing me up.
I'll take Duggan's article at almost face value. He's covered the Giants for a while and even though I'm sure what he wrote won't be well received at 1925 Giants Way I thought it was pretty balanced.
Quote:
Chris Mara’s candidacy was tricky. Sure, he was a part-owner, but he paid his dues, becoming a Giants scout in 1979 and spending 14 years combing the country for draft prospects. “He was one of the best scouts,” said Jerry Shay, a Giants scout from 1973 to 2011. “I just think he had a great knack for recognizing talent.”
Jerry Shay didn't say Chris Mara was combing the country those are Duggan's words and he wasn't around in the 80's that's for sure. For those of you who don't know who Jerry Shay is; he was the 7th pick in the 1966 draft by the Vikings and ended his career with the Giants. He had a career ending broken leg in 1971. He was only 27 and a pretty good DT at the time. He became a scout for the Giants when his playing career ended and was kept on and promoted by George Young if I remember correctly (always questionable).
He is 77 years old now. He described his time with the Giants like this:
Quote:
Shay said he enjoyed his career as a college scout. “I was on the road about 200 days during the year,” he recalled. “You got to meet the top college coaches, visit the top college programs, stay in nice hotels, you got to meet a lot of nice people.”
Does anyone really think that Chris Mara lived Jerry Shay's college scout life? When I traveled with the team - separately but stayed in the team hotels and there was literally zero security, we had access to anywhere we wanted to go. Chris Mara was there and he was the owners son. In a suit, sitting next his father on the team bus. During the college football season. Every time I was there from 86-90. I was at 2 or 3 away games each year. Maybe Chris Mara was a scout but he certainly didn't live like one.
George Young is the HOF for many reasons. He was a very smart man.
Quote:
Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,” Young said, according to Accorsi’s biography
Someone forgot to tell the 2nd generation of Tisch Family owners. They blocked Chris Mara from becoming GM in 2007 but they left the back door open. The Mara's haven't had to use too many back doors in their gilded lives but they used this one to their advantage and the demise of the Giants.
Quote:
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”
“It doesn’t matter what you talk about in the meetings when they go home for dinner and they’re brothers and they’re family.” “It’s just a whole dynamic that you can’t fight.”
Likely Marc Ross as the source but the fact that he's bitter and an ass doesn't make it untrue.
Quote:
An executive of a rival NFL team with no family members in the personnel department understood how the Giants’ structure could create problems.
“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”
And then there's Tim McDonnell. I hope this paragraph is the case. It certainly is a different story than the scouts on Twitter but they're not objective, one was recently fired by the Giants and the other is another teams scout who is anonymous.
Quote:
McDonnell earns universal praise for his work ethic. And a former member of the coaching staff supported Mara’s claim about the respect for McDonnell within the organization. “I think Tim is the best of the personnel people in there,” the former coach said. “He wants to change things and get it right.”
I'm into the weeds here and asking questions I'll never have the answers to. But if you've been following all of this including Baghdad Pat's attempted take down of the Giants former scout on Twitter by basically telling him he should have been fired sooner, maybe we can thank Tim McDonnell for that. Of course the article also mentions how close he is with Chris Pettit and that there's a protected clique in the Giants front office that stays when the GM's and coaches go and how much that clique has to do with the current state of the team.
Quote:
McDonnell’s ascension has raised eyebrows. He spent six years as a pro scout before getting promoted by Gettleman to assistant director of player personnel in 2019. Two years later, he was named co-director of player personnel. For perspective on where that title ranks in the hierarchy of an NFL front office, three of the nine candidates for the Giants GM job are currently directors of player personnel for their teams.
“He hasn’t cut his teeth long enough to be co-director of player personnel,” said a former Giants scout.
John Mara insisted last week that McDonnell “does not have any authority.” But his prominence undoubtedly has grown. When war rooms for the 2021 draft were limited to 10 people due to COVID-19 restrictions, McDonnell had a spot among the Giants’ top decision-makers.
The article also mentions that EVERYTHING gets run by John Mara, usually as a rubber stamp but everything means everything.
So far I think the Giants have done just about everything I could have hoped for in the GM search including firing Judge even though I still like him and think he was sabotaged and had no chance to succeed. I hope they make a good choice for GM and let him hire the coach and clean out the front office. It would be nice if the games went back to being the fun part of following the Giants not the palace intrigue of an emperor that has no clothes.
I thought this was a significant quote from the article
It’s challenging to quantify if one voice carries more weight in that collaborative process. And even Chris Mara’s critics concede that he’s not an overpowering presence in personnel meetings. But former employees also said his opinions implicitly carry more weight.
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”
I ecstatic that Gettleman is gone.
I am very happy that Judge is gone too.
Make no mistake, these are very positive moves and they bring hope that the franchise will turn things around. However, it will still take a Strong GM who can push through some added bullshit and necessary obstacles.
The quote above clearly defines the added obstacles.
Does it mean that the Next GM regime is doomed to fail before it even starts. NO, absolutely not. It just makes the job a bit harder and as Terps has said, it increases the probability of failure.
If you want you best chance of success, remove any and every obstacle, real or perceived. And make no mistake, perceptions matter. These are people in the building. They are not robots. There is a lot of unconscious psychology that just isn't helpful.
Let's put it this way. All things being equal, any given team only has about a 3% chance of winning a SB. That means that over a 10 year period that a front office only has about a 26% chance of success. Why reduce that even by 1% point, by creating a less than optimal structure.
“There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
+1
RE: As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
We’ll, us people (fans) would like to see a winning organization not dragged down by cronyism. From the cheerleading spin it would seem the employees enjoy the status quo jobs for life regardless of performance.
I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
x1,000,000,000
RE: What these people say in press conferences doesn't matter much
Look at their actions: Chris Mara is in the room interviewing GM candidates.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Again spot on.
Idiot owners involved in football operations and when the heat is turned up the x-rays alway show Mara has no spine, and he leads the next ring of HCs and GMs to slaughter.
Meat shields are an apropos name.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Davis Webb thing was infuriating
In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
Yep, try to discredit the post (and thread) by belittling an error that, in the main, was correct. In a puff news story lauding CM as some wunderkind who could do double duty as a personnel guy and still Attend the KDerby as an owner (but in retrospect was a hugely damning article) it also reported that CM’s big find (Bradshaw) occurred because Kate happened to be doing a film on campus and learned of him and pointed him out to her father. So yeah, great scouting detective work canvassing the little know college backwaters….
Apologies for upsetting your deeper takes on this thread.
A few years ago, when JM was asked about his role in the draft, he said he would make the final decision when the GM and HC disagreed about a player.
He did not limit his involvement to off-the-field concerns.
I distinctly recalled this statement and, by google search, was able to find confirmation, from a 2016 article:
Quote:
Giants owner John Mara empowers general manager Jerry Reese to have final say in most matters. But Mara sits in on draft meetings and studies the book of scouts' reports. And if there is a disagreement between Reese and the head coach, Mara casts the tiebreaker.
I take JM's statement at his most recent PC about off-the-field issues as a strategic public relations retreat in the face of criticism, rather a reflection of any real change in his role, up until now.
And I never took the "I just break the tie" characterization at face value either. This is what he does, or has been doing, with his life.
Who the hell would want to work for these A-holes?
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
+1
Yup. Spineless cowards who pull the next patsy in front of them to take all the bullets. Rinse and repeat.
They are so bad at their job and are such weak leaders they cannot even stand tall in their convictions on who they hire even in the face of a little heat.
A sign of poor ethics, poor leadership, and zero confidence in their own decision making. Oh but we’re such a classy organization. GTFOH.
Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
This. It shows how weak of a leader he is…
I know it’s not popular but if he had such strong conviction to hire the likes of McAdoo and Judge it would be great for once for him to tell the fans to just STFU — “We hired these guys for XYZ reasons and ABC legitimate reasons impeded progress, but we strongly believe in them 100%”.
Any great team leader will take bullets for their staff, but Mara pushes his guys off the plank the first signs of distress. It is weak beyond words.
Maras wishy washy convictions and feeding coaches and GMs to the slaughter house every few years makes me skeptical on this process unless the GM has power without the influence of others.
Their decision making card should be revoked once a real football guy comes in.
The Giants are messed up - ( New Window )
With the Tisches blocking Chris’ hire, the Giants turned to Reese, who had been in the organization since 1994 and played a key role in drafting the core of future Super Bowl rosters. According to Accorsi’s biography, a crestfallen Chris Mara did not attend Reese’s introductory news conference, but John Mara made clear his brother would remain an influential figure.
I certainly have given up the hope that this organization led by Mara can be consistently well run.
We have to hope Mara hires the right buys by accident.
“I think he figures, ‘Fuck it, I’ll come around when I want to,'” a former Giants coach said. “He’s not answering to anybody.”
What have you heard?
‘This place is . . . messed up’: Under Maras’ hands-on ownership, Giants slide from model franchise to dysfunction - by Dan Duggan / Jan. 18, 2022 - ( New Window )
Could any person have been more right.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Quote:
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
It’s not a short fix.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Yes. Also Chris Pettit has been here for a long time and seems tightly tied to Chris Mara and his "team" or "guys" in front office.
Will they allow this new GM to start removing some of the guys in the scouting and personnel offices (Pettit, Sternfeld, etc.)?
“There’s a core group in the protected class in that building,” a former front-office member said.
Quote:
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
the second question SHOULD be "Mr. New GM, can you fire Chris Mara or Tim McDonnell if you wanted to?"
Quote:
Quote:
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
It’s not a short fix.
Agree on a new competent GM that is strong at the player evaluation process turning it around.
But improvement can come relatively soon, and then you build on that and move forward...
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
It's also pretty clear that Mara was looking for any excuse in the world to keep Joe Judge. That in itself is damning beyond belief.
John Mara doesn't know what he is doing.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
sickening really.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
Agreed. Disagreements are better handled with more a sophisticated approach...
1. I think Mara thinks that his family members have been shorted because of their last name. What I mean by that is that Chris and Tim have "earned their stripes" (he used that phrase when specifically talking about Tim) but that because of their last name they can't get the titles they deserve. And, in some ways, he is right in the sense that both of them have put in the time (no clue if they are GM material or not). But what Mara doesn't recognize, and still does not seem to recognize, is that while they may have "earned their stripes" the accountability question remains unresolved. If you want Chris and (later Tim) to run the team, let him run the team (as Duggan mentioned with the Cowboys). If you and Tisch decide that is not the case, you cannot have this 800 pound gorilla on the back of people who are held accountable. It just can't work.
2. I think the Mara's always envisioned John running the business end of the operation and Chris running the football end. Tisch put an end to that notion because it now seems the "football guy" in the family (McDonell) is being groomed to being the next John Mara (basically president of the Mara's interests). It also begs the question why is John running this organization over Chris. Chris seems more qualified to do that. Chris may be an asset as an owner in charge of the football half of the business because he does have a big background, where John is just some empty suit who won the lucky sperm club contest of being the first born in a family that owned a football team.
So much more to digest, but I need to work.
Chris Mara isn't being fired regardless of the new gm's clout. The best thing he will be able to do is minimize Mara's impact on any personnel decisions. Treat him like the crazy uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. Smile and nod, but that's the extent of the acknowledgement.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
And, if they are always going to be there, intuitively their decisions will always carry more weight because they are related to your boss and they are not going anywhere. So, in some ways, they are the defacto heads of football even if they (the Mara family) does not think that is the case.
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
Hopefully it's articles like this that gets the ball rolling into the new. The organization unfortunately needs their faces rubbed in this to initiate change IMO.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
Flowers- poor technique, poor hand usage, likes to head butt, doesn't take to coaching, big and strong. If that is scouting report he doesn't get taken in 1st round. What did scouting report say?
Toney- injury prone, likes guns, mercurial, great when healthy,Does that sound like a first round pick?
Jones- Tall, good arm, smart, tough, can't read a defense, slow processor. Number 6 pick in first round really?
Odel - great talent, head case.first round really?
Eli Apple - talent but immature. Really first round?
And so it goes. One common thread is Giants don't seem to know the mind of the person they are drafting. Seems like they just work off measurable.
Clear our personnel department is the root cause of all our losing
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
Brace yourselves: 2017 - 2033
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
it matters, and it's different than in was '05-'12. chris mara wasn't VP of player personnel when the giants won their last superbowl, or at least hadn't been there long enough to do anything. timm wasn't in his position.
does a new GM have the authority to put his own people into player personnel? or are chris and timm untouchable? is chris pettit untouchable bc he is timm's friend?
i appreciate your positivisity. but the pessimist in me is half expecting their preferred GM candidate to decline the position based on the untouchables/protected class in the front office.
this is reportedly why dodds had no interest in the position.
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that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
Ron, can’t disagree, though SBs are all that matter to this fan at this point..All I’m trying to say is let’s move on. We’re going outside the organization and not within, a departure, probably a welcome one, so it shouldn’t be same old, same old..🤞🤞🤞
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on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
Agreed. Also that the questions during last week's media session, the Pat Leonard article, this article are all putting noise out there to at least annoy them. Maybe they are listening...
Either they operated under rigid rules regardless of talent or they couldn't see the obvious talent deficit (which is even worse).
You can't win big in the NFL with a lesser QB. The Giants should have prepared to move on rather than waiting around.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
Good to have you back.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
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In comment 15558863 JonC said:
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the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
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If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
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In comment 15558972 kelly said:
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If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
Totally agree that Reese & Co. missed the boat bigtime for years on not finding, for lack of a better phrase, "just good football players".
So many guys that not only never deserved being drafted when they did, but many who weren't close to being NFL quality. Those drafts around 2011-2013 were as bad as it gets...
Our hopes lie in a blind squirrel finding a nut.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
It was worthy of two posts.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
4 super bowls in that span... Is this an indictment?
Yet, the Giants suck at acquiring talent. Chris and Tim either suck at recognizing talent, or suck at persuading others in the room to see things their way. John M openly admits to believing in C and T opinions. That's a lot of weight, official or not.
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
Those four were hired when Wellington was still the principal decision maker. He was still humbled enough to let the football guys mostly operate, and seemingly only weighed in on coach and GM hires.
There weren’t Maras in the personnel department when that core was being developed from 2004 forward.
The Giants need talent up and down the personnel department and coaching staff. The results are the results, the guys there now suck.
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In comment 15559055 EricJ said:
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
Yeah, and then he scapegoats Reese and McAdoo when Eli and the fans cried about it.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
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In comment 15559061 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15559055 EricJ said:
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
Hopefully he is next, if any of the anonymous squabbling is true. But the point remains that they don’t just fire coaches.
In comment 15559061 Go Terps said:
Quote:
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
The Belichick quip sure stuck with me too, I think it was enormously enlightening and to the heart.
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
Good post.
If what is said is true, any GM is working with a severe handicap.
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The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
The whole point of the article that it is not a complete house cleaning. New GM and HC. But there are people in the personnel department who have been there for years and, regardless of performance, will stay in those roles and have influence.
How independent is a GM that is interviewing for a job with someone who will report to him? A guy who will absolutely be there longer than him and has his bosses ear?
The GM will have a John Mara above him and Chris Mara working for him. Those Maras are brothers and will have their own discussions outside the GM. In 10 years that GM will likely not be here, but both John and Chris Mara will.
I don't understand how anybody sees no problem with that structure.
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
I think you're whistling past the graveyard a bit here. The most recent SB teams were put together mostly under Wellington's guidance. Sure, John took over in 2005, but the GM, HC, QB and core of the team were in place. Once that broke down, they have not been able to replicate it.
The fact that Chris and Tim have zero accountability in the personnel dept is a problem, and a big one. Are scouts and other personnel staff going to be more loyal to the GM or to the 2 owners cosplaying as shadow GM's? They know the GM can be fired, but the owners can't, so it's human nature to protect your job, and keep the unfireable owners happy.
I would have to think that any of the highly regarded GM candidates will ask about separation of powers, and I'm sure they'll be told they have free reign, but will John Mara tell his brother and/or nephew to back off? We'll see.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
reports suggest mara in fact wanted to retain judge and it was tisch who forced the issue (per reports, it was also tisch who wanted to blow it all up in 2019 when shurmur was fired, but deferred to mara's wishes to let gettleman "finish what he started").
so not really sure how much credit we can give to mara here.
That’s all this fan is asking..
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
But sunlight is the best disinfectant and the Mara family is finally in the spotlight for their meddling. I have to believe the Maras are uncomfortable with all the criticism and since public perception means everything to them, they'll give — reluctantly, but they'll give. Bc if it goes badly again, all the fingers will point straight at them. They can't hide anymore.
I remain hopeful the new GM will have authority to do his job now. Let's pray.
If we have credible information about this, then yeah, I agree. But if this is fans and media speculating and theorizing with no information beyond the team has been bad behind shitty GMs, then I'm not going to put much stock in it. So my question is, what is the source? All I see is claims and opinions.
They've sucked for a decade with multiple GM's and HC's, who get fired and replaced. Scouts get fired and replaced. Guess who doesn't get fired and replaced? Chris and Tim.
How can you "clean house" when two owners are squatting in the big bedrooms and won't leave? Asking for evidence is futile, the Mara's will never acknowledge any. We have heard anecdotal evidence of Chris's meddling. There was the report a couple of years ago that when McAdoo approached them about trading up for Mahomes, a group of personnel folks laughed at him and said that he didn't need to worry, that they had found the best QB in the draft - Davis Webb. Jordan Ranaan confirmed that he was told it was Chris Mara who said that.
While I think the idea that McAdoo wanted Mahomes is a bit overblown, even without Chris's interference, would Reese have paid a ransom to move up 13 or so spots? But it does point out an example of Chris Mara exerting his influence in a personnel decision.
Besides that, the idea that "they don't do anything" doesn't quite jibe with the "they're really good at their jobs" claim. Which is it?
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
I am happy to wait and see what happens. If they hire a GM an announce a change in the personnel department and that Chris Mara and McDonnell will no longer be there, that is certainly addressing the problem. I will laud that decision if it is made.
But I am guessing none of the GM candidates walked into the interview with John and Chris Mara and announced part of his plan to overhaul the talent was to move Chris out, and Chris said "Gee, I really like that! We should hire this guy!"
Without those changes, this isn't a housecleaning. It is bringing in some different voices.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
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Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
outside the org, it's biz as usual at the family
laundromat. Giants need help with qualified new
managers at the top and getting rid of the
entrenched anchors
The sad thing is the Giants used to be very good at building in these areas. Hopefully the new GM gets them back on the right path to where the Giants can get back to being Giants again.
2012 draft is a good reference point to where a huge shift in team building occurred and continued. I am hopeful that Mara has seen the light.
gun-like aside, toney has been a huge disappointment. he missed a ton of games and the best game he had (first loss to dallas), he was ejected from.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
sickening really.
Agreed.
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
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however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
I am happy to wait and see what happens. If they hire a GM an announce a change in the personnel department and that Chris Mara and McDonnell will no longer be there, that is certainly addressing the problem. I will laud that decision if it is made.
But I am guessing none of the GM candidates walked into the interview with John and Chris Mara and announced part of his plan to overhaul the talent was to move Chris out, and Chris said "Gee, I really like that! We should hire this guy!"
Without those changes, this isn't a housecleaning. It is bringing in some different voices.
I agree with you. Perception is reality and even if they don't meddle or use their undue influence--it still exists. If they are still there, it's a problem going forward. I am skeptical that the Mara's will fix the problem, I even think, as I said earlier, that they think Chris especially and Tim to lesser degree have been hampered by their family ties ("earned their stripes"), but I also think, as others have pointed out, that Mara gets the criticism and the really bad PR that goes with it, Tisch is more involved and fed up, and there is at least reason to think that change may come. We will find out soon enough.
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One of the dumbest things I’ve heard.
gun-like aside, toney has been a huge disappointment. he missed a ton of games and the best game he had (first loss to dallas), he was ejected from.
Can’t argue that. He seemed to be an issue before he ever showed up to camp.
I think it might be better having Chris in the meetings. It'll show what kind of balls the GM has and he'll get a no BS answer without anything being filtered.
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
I’m shocked Kellen Mond isn’t on our roster
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
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We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
Look at your posts above - you're the one lecturing us on what does and doesn't matter...a couple days after parachuting back in following another horrendous season.
Ok...
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
the only reason eli was benched for smith and not webb is because webb was so bad at quarterback that the coaching staff couldn't justify putting him on the field.
which begs the question, who was responsible for drafting davis webb again?
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We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
+1. I've also been around since 1956 and have shared the joy and the angst and well as some perspective.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
Good for Mara for the moves he's already made. I'll believe he's going to carry out the rest of it, and give the GM top authority over personnel/scouting, when I actually see it. There is nothing about Mara that says he deserves the benefit of the doubt going forward
That was out there in the media. It just got underplayed. I got into long debates about this to prove Mara used McAdoo and Reese as fall guys for HIS DECISION.
Naturally, most of BBI looked the other way because there was no way classy John Mara would do that.
I really hope any GM taking this job knows exactly what they are walking into. Unless they are asking tough questions to Mara there is a chance the wool will be pulled over their eyes.
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did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
the only reason eli was benched for smith and not webb is because webb was so bad at quarterback that the coaching staff couldn't justify putting him on the field.
which begs the question, who was responsible for drafting davis webb again?
Not exactly. Coaching staff had Smith as #2 on the depth chart and he probably was a good soldier as a backup even if his days as a reliable starter were over. Coaches also probably hadn't spent anytime getting Webb developed whatsoever so they were never going to take that unknown chance no matter if fans were looking to see "what happens".
If you don't think the front office situation with the Giants is a big deal, great. You don't need to and nobody needs to convince you that it is. But if you think it is an issue, there is no reason you should be told it isn't. It's actually fine to have more than one point of view expresses here. This is not North Korea.
so not really sure how much credit we can give to mara here.
Judge isn’t here. Regardless of how it was arrived, the decision was made to fire him by ownership.
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and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
Good for Mara for the moves he's already made. I'll believe he's going to carry out the rest of it, and give the GM top authority over personnel/scouting, when I actually see it. There is nothing about Mara that says he deserves the benefit of the doubt going forward
Totally agree. I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt either. But these were the publicly announced plans so it pleases me to hear this much as opposed to digging for "Who Shot Kennedy?"...
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In comment 15559114 Go Terps said:
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We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Please don’t lecture me on what to be critical of. I’ve seen it all and have been strongly critical when necessary. I’m far from happy with what has transpired the last 10 years, but I don’t have to harp on it with the same posts in every thread over and over and over again. NO ONE is happy with what has transpired. I get through it by being a luckier fan than fans of most franchises who have not tasted nearly the success we have tasted since 1986..I will NOT let the crap of the last 10 years bring me down in light of that.
A brief history of joy and angst:
1956-1963. Pure joy with 6 championship games albeit one championship
1964-1980- Agony and disgust at zero playoff appearances.
1981-1990-Mostly nirvana/pure gold
1991-1999-Mostly dreadful dreck trotted out
2000-2003-An embarassing SB display but at least we got there and then meltdowns, injuries and disarray. I was very critical of the Fassel era, rightly or wrongly
2004-2011-Modern golden era with Eli and TC. Mostly elation for me.
2012-present-Quagmire
2022-Hope with a new regime NOT PROMOTED from within..
Look at your posts above - you're the one lecturing us on what does and doesn't matter...a couple days after parachuting back in following another horrendous season.
Ok...
I take a yearly sabbatical every year and plan on returning at season’s end towards FA..Nothing new there. This year was earlier than usual because it was better to leave BBi behind than to read same posts on every thread. Even if we tried to scroll past you which I tried to do, your incessant same old same old always caught the eye. Some of us didn’t agree with you, but acknowledged you COULD BE RIGHT, yet that wasn’t enough for you, you had to continue to pound out the same points ad infinitum. We got it, back in the beginning, but yet you continued the same lines without stop. It was time to take a break to avoid arguing the same points and so I did. Didn’t even lurk until season’s end.
I wasn’t lecturing anyone or didn’t mean to. I was speaking FOR ME and what was important FOR ME and reasonably stated that we should wait and see what the “outside” regime might hold for us. If that’s lecturing, then guilty as charged
Because context and transparency are important.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
You know none of us are in the front office right?
Blind positivity from fans isn't the same as the front office getting things right.
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
Holy shit. That is unbelievable - great catch there. That is so incriminating. Damn. These guys are so lazy.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
Yep, that is the prudent play. Still have Tim though so folks will want to keep digging deeper...
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
This makes sense. Or let Chris and Timmy play in their own sandbox, while the new GM builds a entire scouting department separate from Chris Mara's.
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"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
Holy shit. That is unbelievable - great catch there. That is so incriminating. Damn. These guys are so lazy.
It's incredible. All three guys are similar - flawed passers who has a good weekend at the Senior Bowl and probably look like guys he'd want Kate or Rooney to bring home.
What a fucking joke.
References in the story seem to support John Mara's contention about Chris Mara's and Tim McDonnell's competence. So is the point they should have resigned or been forced out because of optics or public relations or to cover up for Gettleman's abject failures? It's ludicrous to even think this would be a possibility. I get the organizational dilemma this may pose but still think this is being overhyped.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
That's fair, but Bradshaw's talent was well known, it was the criminal charges that pushed him down the draft board. Having an owner sign off on drafting him makes a big difference, but I'm not sure it's an example of his eye for talent.
It's also pretty clear that Mara was looking for any excuse in the world to keep Joe Judge. That in itself is damning beyond belief.
John Mara doesn't know what he is doing.
It’s clear as day. The fact that Mara is interviewing the GM candidates while retaining his title in the personnel department is so problematic. But the people that constantly choose to view things in a positive light when it pertains to the Giants, in spite of a decade of futility, will continue to do so
References in the story seem to support John Mara's contention about Chris Mara's and Tim McDonnell's competence. So is the point they should have resigned or been forced out because of optics or public relations or to cover up for Gettleman's abject failures? It's ludicrous to even think this would be a possibility. I get the organizational dilemma this may pose but still think this is being overhyped.
The problem is not that Chris or Tim are inherently bad at their jobs. The point is that they can keep their jobs regardless of how well they do them, and they have a direct line to the owners that others don't.
This would be like working where you work but the owner's daughter reports to you. She may be good at her job, but you are never going to view her as just another staff or decide to let her go because her work is subpar. She has outsized influence that has nothing to do with the org chart.
I definitely have to stop doing this...
The problem is not that Chris or Tim are inherently bad at their jobs. The point is that they can keep their jobs regardless of how well they do them, and they have a direct line to the owners that others don't.
yeah, but the fact that our talent acquisition has been so awful since Chris has been "running" the dept sort of points to them being bad at their jobs
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
Either call Chris "Co-Owner", and remove his from his role, or role his current role under the GM, and that is whom he reports to. That way there is a legitimate guard rail installed.
Look, this transformation only works IF Mara is honest and truly gives the entire football operations and accountability to the new GM. If that happens, and the GM is the right choice, we will begin to emerge out of the darkness.
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The problem is not that Chris or Tim are inherently bad at their jobs. The point is that they can keep their jobs regardless of how well they do them, and they have a direct line to the owners that others don't.
yeah, but the fact that our talent acquisition has been so awful since Chris has been "running" the dept sort of points to them being bad at their jobs
And even if they themselves have some eye for talent and the lousy work has been done by others, it's been Chris' role for the last 10 years to recognize the problem and get rid of the people responsible. So at a minimum, he's bad at that part of his job. Or, we can just go with the premise that Chris actually has no role, and everything has been the GM's fault
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Remove Chris Mara from player personnel and may his title an Executive SVP strictly under ownership. New GM gets full control to overhaul football operations & should be able to bring in his number 2.
That goes a long way in clearing out the rot.
Either call Chris "Co-Owner", and remove his from his role, or role his current role under the GM, and that is whom he reports to. That way there is a legitimate guard rail installed.
Look, this transformation only works IF Mara is honest and truly gives the entire football operations and accountability to the new GM. If that happens, and the GM is the right choice, we will begin to emerge out of the darkness.
You can remove his title, but what does that accomplish? He owns the team. As multiple people pointed out in the article, he’s still going to have more sway than most people. It will be telling if assurances are given or his presence deters any of these guys from taking the job if offered
Apparently a lot of blind positivity around here that needs to be handled.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
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But the people that constantly choose to view things in a positive light when it pertains to the Giants, in spite of a decade of futility, will continue to do so
I definitely have to stop doing this...
I have this disgusting cycle I've found myself in as a fan.
This time of year - I hate the Giants, totally done with them, just down right horrified in the general direction of the team.
Then comes the draft/FA season hits where I get all excited about the players coming in, the franchise turning it around with certain draft picks and/or signings, the projections of how certain players will succeed in the NFL and/or how they project as a Giant.
Then I'm disappointed in the Giants draft. I wish they had taken (fill in the blank) instead of (literally every 1st round pick they've made the past 10 years), I get down on the GM and the coaching staff for decisions they made and what I would have done instead and so on.
Then camp hits and I'm super pumped and talk myself into how the Giants are going to turn it around despite hating everything they did 3 months ago. I talk myself into SB being the right pick at #2 or re-watch DJ play games from the season prior to convince myself that there's something to get pumped about.
Then the season starts and the Giants are eliminated by the end of October and I suffer through the rest of the season.
Then the cycle starts over.
I don't care if Chris and Tim have jobs or what about their titles. Titles are a big NYC thing-even the janitors have titles, and if I run into one more "Managing Director", I'll throw up. So the titles are meaningless.
But they have to do the job and do it well. If Chris wants to play scout and no one cares or listens to it, fine. Same with Tim. If they want a voice, they need to do the job. Scouting by watching the Senior Bowl ain't it.
Either call Chris "Co-Owner", and remove his from his role, or role his current role under the GM, and that is whom he reports to. That way there is a legitimate guard rail installed.
Look, this transformation only works IF Mara is honest and truly gives the entire football operations and accountability to the new GM. If that happens, and the GM is the right choice, we will begin to emerge out of the darkness.
You can remove his title, but what does that accomplish? He owns the team. As multiple people pointed out in the article, he’s still going to have more sway than most people. It will be telling if assurances are given or his presence deters any of these guys from taking the job if offered [/quote]
If you remove the title, it gives the new GM a chance to hire his own head of player personnel.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
sickening really.
+1000
we're interviewing directors of personnel and college scouting for our own GM position. Having "un-hireables" in that position for us completely breaks the Giants way.
i'm not even against the giants way, it makes perfect sense to hire from within the company in pretty much every business model, but we should be a FARM for future GMs.
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In the 2017 draft, McAdoo coveted Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes — “I’d love to get my fucking hands on him,” a front-office source recalled McAdoo saying in a pre-draft meeting after attending Mahomes’ pro day workout — but the Giants stuck with the 23rd pick and took tight end Evan Engram.
At least we got an undersized TE who can't block or catch consistently.
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All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
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In comment 15559146 MOOPS said:
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"Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days..."
I guess this explains why we drafted the MVP of the Senior Bowl three years in a row, Webb, Lauletta and Jones.
Holy shit. That is unbelievable - great catch there. That is so incriminating. Damn. These guys are so lazy.
It's incredible. All three guys are similar - flawed passers who has a good weekend at the Senior Bowl and probably look like guys he'd want Kate or Rooney to bring home.
What a fucking joke.
Wow, great fking point.
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In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
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All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I think everyone knows Colbert is the man making the decisions.
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In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
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In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
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All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
2018
Kyle Lauletta
BJ Hill
2019
Daniel Jones
Oshane Ximines
Corey Ballentine
2020
Carter Coughlin
Cam Brown
Darnay Holmes
Matt Peart
TJ Brunson
Ben Bredeson (not drafted, but acquired in trade)
2021
Kadarius Toney
Aaron Robinson
Elerson Smith
Quincy Roche (not drafted)
Rodarius Williams
Why travel around the country? The Senior Bowl is one stop shopping for draft picks!
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I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
Sounds good to me, Sean. Let's hope they get it right this time.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
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I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
bidnis is bidnis
shocking how the Giants and Steelers manage to win so much...
But just know that the pro landscape is littered with proof that so called "BAD" owners do in fact win. They can love for ten years straight and then win for the following ten years based on the fact that the "bad" owner finally hired the right guy.
Take a wild guess what all these owners have in common:
Donald Sterling
George Steinbrenner
Wellington and John Mara
James Dolan
I can't think of any more for now, but I am 100% certain there are many many more. And what do they have in common? They all endured years of failure and in some cases scandal and ugly shit, only to also see that same owner preside over a long run of success or in Dolan's case he's done just fine with the Rangers will the Knicks have struggled BUT the knicks now look to be on the right track.
There is so much evidence to support the claims that Owners ebb and flow thanks to who they hire and fire and less data suggesting that their very existence or "influence" impacts wins and losses, it's virtually beyond reproach. You don't have to believe but when you belittle or condemn or mock or talk the same fucking tired shit day after day, well, here we are.
Believe what you want. We've seen this very franchise win and win big. We've see this very owner win and win big. But now he cannot win anymore just because you say so? Give us more than that. Proof.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Depends on the prescription, I suppose.
Hire the right people and let's hope for the best.
George Steinbrenner is a poor example. Without getting too far into it his story is somewhat similar to Wellington's. When George was the GM the Yankees were the butt of jokes and won nothing. When Gabe Paul and Gene Michael were the GM they built the championship teams George got credit for despite him not because of him.
Donald Sterling lost for 30 years. His teams were a joke for decades.
These are not good examples and John Mara won in 07 and 11 and then he ended the George Young organizational model and here we are.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
Like I said, Mara has made plenty of mistakes. Not disputing that. I dispute the claims that unless Chris is removed and Mara is forced to commit seppuku in times square, we won't ever win again.
And I gotta be honest, I don't buy for one fucking second that Mara used them as shields with the whole QB debate. If the Giants were winning they don't get fired. If McAdoo doesn't lose the team he doesn't get fired. I don't even get that line. What does that even prove?
Mara is the problem until he isn't the problem. If and when he hires the right HC and GM, he will no longer be the problem. I promise. Hold me to it. He has hired the wrong people. That's why he's firing them 2 years later.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
If you think I am waving any pom poms with these posts think again. Not everyone who disagree with you is looking at things with rose colored glasses. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the latest group think that Mara will inevitably ruin things. There is a ton of evidence to support the claim that if Mara likes who is running things he stays the fuck out of the way. Even at times to a fault. And you know that.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
Again, see my post before this. I am not holding out hope for shit. I just disagree with this aggressive take on Mara. Don't know why someone can't say that's a pretty intense take while still thinking the team sucks.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
Operating with much worse data, poor results, yet somehow still brazenly confident in the "process"
I think that is the reason I can't understand why anyone would say they are serious about real change or this is business as usual.
WE don't have enough data right now. This could very easily be us getting our pound of flesh so they can keep their ultimate control. Or they could have realized that unless they really cede some power and change this is going to get worse.
He's been forced to overly compensate due to his own mistakes. Hire the right people and we will be fine.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
And this is even more reason why it was bullshit Gettleman “retired”, I will argue that DID matter.
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That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
You want to believe that be my guest. Pretty dark and morbid take on things. Especially when I have seen some brutal owners win and win big.
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In comment 15559559 JonC said:
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That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
Ok fine, I don't doubt it. But that doesn't mean we never win again, lol.
He's had a brutal decade. Let's hope for the best moving forward. I can't do anything more than that.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Rudolph is a less important canary. Let’s see if Tim protects him.
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The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
I think internally Siam is the biggest litmus test. It can be said that he more clearly sucked at his job than Abrams, ESPECIALLY considering JJ's "spreadsheet" comment
But like Abrams all we heard was what a "star" he is.
It's just odd that 6 weeks ago Mara was never going out of his comfort zone. Was never going to fire Judge. Never hire a GM from outside.
He did fire Judge.
He isn't promoting Abrams.
He's going to hire an outsider GM.
So now I guess we pivot to this new thread? He's going to ruin everything no matter what?
People were wrong about this GM/HC process. Can we admit that or no?
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this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Agreed.
If Gettleman, and Reese before him, didn't do those things then it's because they themselves weren't good at what they were doing, and/or relied more on themselves (hubris) to make the right decisions.
Either way...find a competent GM that can display he has strong attributes at how a player evaluation process should operate, and things will get better for the NYG...
That is going to be the watershed for sure, specifically on Jones.
If Jones is retained, then (1) the GM has been told by ownership that they believe Jones should be given at least another year to be evaluated. Or (2) the GM actually likes Jones, which means he's probably the wrong choice for the role.
He wants to win, but he won't turn over every stone to do it. That's a problem in an ultra competitive environment.
He wants to win, but he won't turn over every stone to do it. That's a problem in an ultra competitive environment.
Mara has perfect opportunity turn it all over now, and keep himself distanced from the carnage, by putting the new GM at forefront...
It's just odd that 6 weeks ago Mara was never going out of his comfort zone. Was never going to fire Judge. Never hire a GM from outside.
He did fire Judge.
He isn't promoting Abrams.
He's going to hire an outsider GM.
So now I guess we pivot to this new thread? He's going to ruin everything no matter what?
People were wrong about this GM/HC process. Can we admit that or no?
You're all over the place as is your style, but this post is fine. As much as folks won't admit it...
:-)
Well said. We’ll find out a lot in the next month or so.
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
Brace yourselves: 2017 - 2033
Wouldn't it start 2013?
I'll take Duggan's article at almost face value. He's covered the Giants for a while and even though I'm sure what he wrote won't be well received at 1925 Giants Way I thought it was pretty balanced.
Jerry Shay didn't say Chris Mara was combing the country those are Duggan's words and he wasn't around in the 80's that's for sure. For those of you who don't know who Jerry Shay is; he was the 7th pick in the 1966 draft by the Vikings and ended his career with the Giants. He had a career ending broken leg in 1971. He was only 27 and a pretty good DT at the time. He became a scout for the Giants when his playing career ended and was kept on and promoted by George Young if I remember correctly (always questionable).
He is 77 years old now. He described his time with the Giants like this:
Does anyone really think that Chris Mara lived Jerry Shay's college scout life? When I traveled with the team - separately but stayed in the team hotels and there was literally zero security, we had access to anywhere we wanted to go. Chris Mara was there and he was the owners son. In a suit, sitting next his father on the team bus. During the college football season. Every time I was there from 86-90. I was at 2 or 3 away games each year. Maybe Chris Mara was a scout but he certainly didn't live like one.
George Young is the HOF for many reasons. He was a very smart man.
Someone forgot to tell the 2nd generation of Tisch Family owners. They blocked Chris Mara from becoming GM in 2007 but they left the back door open. The Mara's haven't had to use too many back doors in their gilded lives but they used this one to their advantage and the demise of the Giants.
“It doesn’t matter what you talk about in the meetings when they go home for dinner and they’re brothers and they’re family.” “It’s just a whole dynamic that you can’t fight.”
Likely Marc Ross as the source but the fact that he's bitter and an ass doesn't make it untrue.
“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”
And then there's Tim McDonnell. I hope this paragraph is the case. It certainly is a different story than the scouts on Twitter but they're not objective, one was recently fired by the Giants and the other is another teams scout who is anonymous.
I'm into the weeds here and asking questions I'll never have the answers to. But if you've been following all of this including Baghdad Pat's attempted take down of the Giants former scout on Twitter by basically telling him he should have been fired sooner, maybe we can thank Tim McDonnell for that. Of course the article also mentions how close he is with Chris Pettit and that there's a protected clique in the Giants front office that stays when the GM's and coaches go and how much that clique has to do with the current state of the team.
“He hasn’t cut his teeth long enough to be co-director of player personnel,” said a former Giants scout.
John Mara insisted last week that McDonnell “does not have any authority.” But his prominence undoubtedly has grown. When war rooms for the 2021 draft were limited to 10 people due to COVID-19 restrictions, McDonnell had a spot among the Giants’ top decision-makers.
The article also mentions that EVERYTHING gets run by John Mara, usually as a rubber stamp but everything means everything.
So far I think the Giants have done just about everything I could have hoped for in the GM search including firing Judge even though I still like him and think he was sabotaged and had no chance to succeed. I hope they make a good choice for GM and let him hire the coach and clean out the front office. It would be nice if the games went back to being the fun part of following the Giants not the palace intrigue of an emperor that has no clothes.
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”
I ecstatic that Gettleman is gone.
I am very happy that Judge is gone too.
Make no mistake, these are very positive moves and they bring hope that the franchise will turn things around. However, it will still take a Strong GM who can push through some added bullshit and necessary obstacles.
The quote above clearly defines the added obstacles.
Does it mean that the Next GM regime is doomed to fail before it even starts. NO, absolutely not. It just makes the job a bit harder and as Terps has said, it increases the probability of failure.
If you want you best chance of success, remove any and every obstacle, real or perceived. And make no mistake, perceptions matter. These are people in the building. They are not robots. There is a lot of unconscious psychology that just isn't helpful.
Let's put it this way. All things being equal, any given team only has about a 3% chance of winning a SB. That means that over a 10 year period that a front office only has about a 26% chance of success. Why reduce that even by 1% point, by creating a less than optimal structure.
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
+1
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
We’ll, us people (fans) would like to see a winning organization not dragged down by cronyism. From the cheerleading spin it would seem the employees enjoy the status quo jobs for life regardless of performance.
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I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
x1,000,000,000
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Again spot on.
Idiot owners involved in football operations and when the heat is turned up the x-rays alway show Mara has no spine, and he leads the next ring of HCs and GMs to slaughter.
Meat shields are an apropos name.
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In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
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In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
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In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
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All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
Yep, try to discredit the post (and thread) by belittling an error that, in the main, was correct. In a puff news story lauding CM as some wunderkind who could do double duty as a personnel guy and still Attend the KDerby as an owner (but in retrospect was a hugely damning article) it also reported that CM’s big find (Bradshaw) occurred because Kate happened to be doing a film on campus and learned of him and pointed him out to her father. So yeah, great scouting detective work canvassing the little know college backwaters….
He did not limit his involvement to off-the-field concerns.
I distinctly recalled this statement and, by google search, was able to find confirmation, from a 2016 article:
I take JM's statement at his most recent PC about off-the-field issues as a strategic public relations retreat in the face of criticism, rather a reflection of any real change in his role, up until now.
And I never took the "I just break the tie" characterization at face value either. This is what he does, or has been doing, with his life.
Maybe that will change.
bleacher report - ( New Window )
You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...
Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.
Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?
What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
+1
Yup. Spineless cowards who pull the next patsy in front of them to take all the bullets. Rinse and repeat.
They are so bad at their job and are such weak leaders they cannot even stand tall in their convictions on who they hire even in the face of a little heat.
A sign of poor ethics, poor leadership, and zero confidence in their own decision making. Oh but we’re such a classy organization. GTFOH.
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Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.
It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.
An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.
I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
This. It shows how weak of a leader he is…
I know it’s not popular but if he had such strong conviction to hire the likes of McAdoo and Judge it would be great for once for him to tell the fans to just STFU — “We hired these guys for XYZ reasons and ABC legitimate reasons impeded progress, but we strongly believe in them 100%”.
Any great team leader will take bullets for their staff, but Mara pushes his guys off the plank the first signs of distress. It is weak beyond words.
Maras wishy washy convictions and feeding coaches and GMs to the slaughter house every few years makes me skeptical on this process unless the GM has power without the influence of others.
Their decision making card should be revoked once a real football guy comes in.