A bit disturbing just how dysfunctional the organization has become. Some insight from former personnel, both coaching and front office. Hoping our new GM has the authority, and the balls, to override the influence of Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara.
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
But it feels a bit untimely to me. I have no issues with the way they are moving forward and have a sense much of the dysfunction is inferred from the outside. Neither DG nor JJ have ever so much as implied as much. But regardless, we've beaten the hell out of this team the past month+ and they have a great opportunity in front of them to turn the corner. Seems to me that should be the story.
When Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,”
Quote:
“I thought he could be the one that could have taken over (as GM),” Walsh said. “But you have to understand, there’s two owners. The Tisches didn’t want the Maras to get too far ahead of them and the Maras didn’t want the Tisches to get too far ahead of them. So they couldn’t have another Mara after John took over. That wouldn’t sit well with the Tisch family.”
With the Tisches blocking Chris’ hire, the Giants turned to Reese, who had been in the organization since 1994 and played a key role in drafting the core of future Super Bowl rosters. According to Accorsi’s biography, a crestfallen Chris Mara did not attend Reese’s introductory news conference, but John Mara made clear his brother would remain an influential figure.
Chris doesn’t go on the road to scout college games during the fall. His in-person scouting is typically limited to postseason all-star games, the scouting combine and college pro days. According to multiple current members of the organization, he has been less hands-on in recent years.
“I think he figures, ‘Fuck it, I’ll come around when I want to,'” a former Giants coach said. “He’s not answering to anybody.”
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
the Giants have absolutely stunk at scouting both college and pro players for a decade. That falls at the feet of those two guys to hire quality scouts and get the evaluation processes done correctly to set the stage for a draft board, UFA board, etc. Surely, someone(s) in the organize has to recognize they stink at acquiring quality NFL talent. Self-scouting is either also failing or perhaps no one's been brave enough to point it out.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Ouch. Hopefully a new GM cleans it up and quick...
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
RE: Ouch. Hopefully a new GM cleans it up and quick...
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
the Giants have absolutely stunk at scouting both college and pro players for a decade. That falls at the feet of those two guys to hire quality scouts and get the evaluation processes done correctly to set the stage for a draft board, UFA board, etc. Surely, someone(s) in the organize has to recognize they stink at acquiring quality NFL talent. Self-scouting is either also failing or perhaps no one's been brave enough to point it out.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Yes. Also Chris Pettit has been here for a long time and seems tightly tied to Chris Mara and his "team" or "guys" in front office.
Will they allow this new GM to start removing some of the guys in the scouting and personnel offices (Pettit, Sternfeld, etc.)?
Current and former employees say McDonnell is close to director of college scouting Chris Pettit, who has also climbed the ladder during the team’s tailspin. An area scout for 13 years before getting promoted by Gettleman in 2018, Pettit’s job could be in jeopardy with a new GM given the Giants’ poor draft record, but some wonder if he’ll be spared due to his relationship with McDonnell. “There’s a core group in the protected class in that building,” a former front-office member said.
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
It’s not a short fix.
Agree on a new competent GM that is strong at the player evaluation process turning it around.
But improvement can come relatively soon, and then you build on that and move forward...
Article rehashes everything we already know about the organization
Here’s the only question going forward: Will JM give the new GM the power to totally restructure the personnel, scouting and coaching depts?
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make.
is a lack of incentivization and a lack of accountability. This is a really common problem in companies. When you lack these things, then the smartest decision is to agree with everything Chris Mara says because then you'll make ownership happy and be more likely to stay on.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
Article rehashes everything we already know about the organization
Here’s the only question going forward: Will JM give the new GM the power to totally restructure the personnel, scouting and coaching depts?
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
Article rehashes everything we already know about the organization
Here’s the only question going forward: Will JM give the new GM the power to totally restructure the personnel, scouting and coaching depts?
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
Giants fans who think these issues are "in the past" are clearly deluding themselves. But it's not surprising. They just don't want to admit the scope of the problem so they bury their heads in the sand.
It's also pretty clear that Mara was looking for any excuse in the world to keep Joe Judge. That in itself is damning beyond belief.
sounds as if john mara doesn't even recognize that his brother and nephew being in prominent player personnel positions is a problem from an accountability standpoint.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
is a lack of incentivization and a lack of accountability. This is a really common problem in companies. When you lack these things, then the smartest decision is to agree with everything Chris Mara says because then you'll make ownership happy and be more likely to stay on.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
Agreed. Disagreements are better handled with more a sophisticated approach...
Read the article buts it's getting to point of the less I know about the dysfunction the better for me as a fan since the problem is from the owners and no matter how much losing occurs those guys are never going away in my life time.
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
The article was fantastic and I do think it really refines
1. I think Mara thinks that his family members have been shorted because of their last name. What I mean by that is that Chris and Tim have "earned their stripes" (he used that phrase when specifically talking about Tim) but that because of their last name they can't get the titles they deserve. And, in some ways, he is right in the sense that both of them have put in the time (no clue if they are GM material or not). But what Mara doesn't recognize, and still does not seem to recognize, is that while they may have "earned their stripes" the accountability question remains unresolved. If you want Chris and (later Tim) to run the team, let him run the team (as Duggan mentioned with the Cowboys). If you and Tisch decide that is not the case, you cannot have this 800 pound gorilla on the back of people who are held accountable. It just can't work.
2. I think the Mara's always envisioned John running the business end of the operation and Chris running the football end. Tisch put an end to that notion because it now seems the "football guy" in the family (McDonell) is being groomed to being the next John Mara (basically president of the Mara's interests). It also begs the question why is John running this organization over Chris. Chris seems more qualified to do that. Chris may be an asset as an owner in charge of the football half of the business because he does have a big background, where John is just some empty suit who won the lucky sperm club contest of being the first born in a family that owned a football team.
the most damning item in the article is that Tim McDonald holds the same title as 3 of our candidates for GM, which is a lesser title than Chris Mara holds, and yet we're told to believe that these family members do not make any decisions.
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
Chris Mara isn't being fired regardless of the new gm's clout. The best thing he will be able to do is minimize Mara's impact on any personnel decisions. Treat him like the crazy uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. Smile and nod, but that's the extent of the acknowledgement.
Much has been made here about the vilification of Chris Mara, and this article I think presents the issue fairly. It is not that he is bad at his job or part of the problem (in fact the article implies he is pretty good at it). The point is that his ownership makes him unaccountable for his job performance. No matter what house cleaning is done in personnel, he is safe. That is not the way to run a successful organization.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
Much has been made here about the vilification of Chris Mara, and this article I think presents the issue fairly. It is not that he is bad at his job or part of the problem (in fact the article implies he is pretty good at it). The point is that his ownership makes him unaccountable for his job performance. No matter what house cleaning is done in personnel, he is safe. That is not the way to run a successful organization.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
And, if they are always going to be there, intuitively their decisions will always carry more weight because they are related to your boss and they are not going anywhere. So, in some ways, they are the defacto heads of football even if they (the Mara family) does not think that is the case.
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
We’re moving on with the new, that’s all that matters to me..Let’s see what transpires
Hopefully it's articles like this that gets the ball rolling into the new. The organization unfortunately needs their faces rubbed in this to initiate change IMO.
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
Flowers- poor technique, poor hand usage, likes to head butt, doesn't take to coaching, big and strong. If that is scouting report he doesn't get taken in 1st round. What did scouting report say?
Toney- injury prone, likes guns, mercurial, great when healthy,Does that sound like a first round pick?
Jones- Tall, good arm, smart, tough, can't read a defense, slow processor. Number 6 pick in first round really?
Odel - great talent, head case.first round really?
Eli Apple - talent but immature. Really first round?
And so it goes. One common thread is Giants don't seem to know the mind of the person they are drafting. Seems like they just work off measurable.
Clear our personnel department is the root cause of all our losing
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
“There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
it matters, and it's different than in was '05-'12. chris mara wasn't VP of player personnel when the giants won their last superbowl, or at least hadn't been there long enough to do anything. timm wasn't in his position.
does a new GM have the authority to put his own people into player personnel? or are chris and timm untouchable? is chris pettit untouchable bc he is timm's friend?
i appreciate your positivisity. but the pessimist in me is half expecting their preferred GM candidate to decline the position based on the untouchables/protected class in the front office.
this is reportedly why dodds had no interest in the position.
RE: RE: Seems to me that Mara/Tisch were around for
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
Ron, can’t disagree, though SBs are all that matter to this fan at this point..All I’m trying to say is let’s move on. We’re going outside the organization and not within, a departure, probably a welcome one, so it shouldn’t be same old, same old..🤞🤞🤞
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
Agreed. Also that the questions during last week's media session, the Pat Leonard article, this article are all putting noise out there to at least annoy them. Maybe they are listening...
The Giants are messed up - ( New Window )
With the Tisches blocking Chris’ hire, the Giants turned to Reese, who had been in the organization since 1994 and played a key role in drafting the core of future Super Bowl rosters. According to Accorsi’s biography, a crestfallen Chris Mara did not attend Reese’s introductory news conference, but John Mara made clear his brother would remain an influential figure.
I certainly have given up the hope that this organization led by Mara can be consistently well run.
We have to hope Mara hires the right buys by accident.
“I think he figures, ‘Fuck it, I’ll come around when I want to,'” a former Giants coach said. “He’s not answering to anybody.”
What have you heard?
‘This place is . . . messed up’: Under Maras’ hands-on ownership, Giants slide from model franchise to dysfunction - by Dan Duggan / Jan. 18, 2022 - ( New Window )
Could any person have been more right.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Quote:
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
It’s not a short fix.
Both of them being family, they could be in fireproof positions, which will then cycle into a situation like NYG is in now.
Yes. Also Chris Pettit has been here for a long time and seems tightly tied to Chris Mara and his "team" or "guys" in front office.
Will they allow this new GM to start removing some of the guys in the scouting and personnel offices (Pettit, Sternfeld, etc.)?
“There’s a core group in the protected class in that building,” a former front-office member said.
Quote:
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
the second question SHOULD be "Mr. New GM, can you fire Chris Mara or Tim McDonnell if you wanted to?"
Quote:
Quote:
“Legitimately two weeks on the job, not knowing what life was like working in the NFL, I’m like, ‘This place is fucking messed up,'” said a former staffer who worked for high-level college programs before joining the Giants. “There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”
I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Clearly the Giants are not a modern organization with the right processes and procedures. They’re an old boys club who wing it on draft day and in free agency.
More than anything they need a GM, or someone, to come in and turn it into a modern, professional organization.
It’s not a short fix.
Agree on a new competent GM that is strong at the player evaluation process turning it around.
But improvement can come relatively soon, and then you build on that and move forward...
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
As fans we have to hope this is the case.
I have my doubts as it involves family members especially Chris Mara.
The only way this works is if CM is just a co-owner and not involved in player evaluations.
That’s the biggest decision JM will ever make. It is the biggest dark cloud hanging over this organization.
As fans we can only hope!!!
It's also pretty clear that Mara was looking for any excuse in the world to keep Joe Judge. That in itself is damning beyond belief.
John Mara doesn't know what he is doing.
also, with regard to mara not overriding a GMs draft choice unless there's a character issue.. what does that mean? did john mara overrule reese, who wanted tunsil and draft eli apple instead? what about parsons this past draft?
what a mess. a team run by these bunch of out-of-touch silver spoons who hide behind the disjointed org structure to dodge accountability for terrible decision-making is a hard model to respect.
as one quoted says, at least in dallas jerry and his son make it clear they run the show. conversely, the giants set up pasties and fall guys and ruin career after career as they continue their unabated meddling.
sickening really.
It sounds like they are so focused on a collaboration in scouting that it creates inaction because of disagreements. If the process is "let's talk it out" when there's a disagreement, whomever carries most sway is going to win all the time. This whole process needs to be revamped.
There's so many easy ways to fix this, it's like basic management consulting stuff, hopefully the Giants can find a GM who has some ideas and listen to them.
Agreed. Disagreements are better handled with more a sophisticated approach...
1. I think Mara thinks that his family members have been shorted because of their last name. What I mean by that is that Chris and Tim have "earned their stripes" (he used that phrase when specifically talking about Tim) but that because of their last name they can't get the titles they deserve. And, in some ways, he is right in the sense that both of them have put in the time (no clue if they are GM material or not). But what Mara doesn't recognize, and still does not seem to recognize, is that while they may have "earned their stripes" the accountability question remains unresolved. If you want Chris and (later Tim) to run the team, let him run the team (as Duggan mentioned with the Cowboys). If you and Tisch decide that is not the case, you cannot have this 800 pound gorilla on the back of people who are held accountable. It just can't work.
2. I think the Mara's always envisioned John running the business end of the operation and Chris running the football end. Tisch put an end to that notion because it now seems the "football guy" in the family (McDonell) is being groomed to being the next John Mara (basically president of the Mara's interests). It also begs the question why is John running this organization over Chris. Chris seems more qualified to do that. Chris may be an asset as an owner in charge of the football half of the business because he does have a big background, where John is just some empty suit who won the lucky sperm club contest of being the first born in a family that owned a football team.
So much more to digest, but I need to work.
Chris Mara isn't being fired regardless of the new gm's clout. The best thing he will be able to do is minimize Mara's impact on any personnel decisions. Treat him like the crazy uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. Smile and nod, but that's the extent of the acknowledgement.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
And, if they are always going to be there, intuitively their decisions will always carry more weight because they are related to your boss and they are not going anywhere. So, in some ways, they are the defacto heads of football even if they (the Mara family) does not think that is the case.
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
Hopefully it's articles like this that gets the ball rolling into the new. The organization unfortunately needs their faces rubbed in this to initiate change IMO.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
Flowers- poor technique, poor hand usage, likes to head butt, doesn't take to coaching, big and strong. If that is scouting report he doesn't get taken in 1st round. What did scouting report say?
Toney- injury prone, likes guns, mercurial, great when healthy,Does that sound like a first round pick?
Jones- Tall, good arm, smart, tough, can't read a defense, slow processor. Number 6 pick in first round really?
Odel - great talent, head case.first round really?
Eli Apple - talent but immature. Really first round?
And so it goes. One common thread is Giants don't seem to know the mind of the person they are drafting. Seems like they just work off measurable.
Clear our personnel department is the root cause of all our losing
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
Brace yourselves: 2017 - 2033
This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
it matters, and it's different than in was '05-'12. chris mara wasn't VP of player personnel when the giants won their last superbowl, or at least hadn't been there long enough to do anything. timm wasn't in his position.
does a new GM have the authority to put his own people into player personnel? or are chris and timm untouchable? is chris pettit untouchable bc he is timm's friend?
i appreciate your positivisity. but the pessimist in me is half expecting their preferred GM candidate to decline the position based on the untouchables/protected class in the front office.
this is reportedly why dodds had no interest in the position.
Quote:
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
its easy to say we are on par with most of the league if you are only looking at SBs. Thats not the correct way to look at things IMV.
I actually like Wellington's measure that the final game is meaningful. Its a low bar for sure, but one that we have not met often in the past decade.
Ron, can’t disagree, though SBs are all that matter to this fan at this point..All I’m trying to say is let’s move on. We’re going outside the organization and not within, a departure, probably a welcome one, so it shouldn’t be same old, same old..🤞🤞🤞
Quote:
on Timmy and Chrissy getting ousted. You just really hope the new GM has complete ability to fire anyone else, and the type of connections/ability to scout scouts to bring in a good scouting staff. It seems this org has many lifers who have sucked for years.
yup. Hopefully this "protected class" stuff is either severely overstated or a thing of the past
Agreed. Also that the questions during last week's media session, the Pat Leonard article, this article are all putting noise out there to at least annoy them. Maybe they are listening...