If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
Today I learned: It was Mara himself that led to Eli's Benching
In the 2017 draft, McAdoo coveted Texas Tech quarterback Patrick Mahomes — “I’d love to get my fucking hands on him,” a front-office source recalled McAdoo saying in a pre-draft meeting after attending Mahomes’ pro day workout — but the Giants stuck with the 23rd pick and took tight end Evan Engram.
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
If we have credible information about this, then yeah, I agree. But if this is fans and media speculating and theorizing with no information beyond the team has been bad behind shitty GMs, then I'm not going to put much stock in it. So my question is, what is the source? All I see is claims and opinions.
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
Totally agree that Reese & Co. missed the boat bigtime for years on not finding, for lack of a better phrase, "just good football players".
So many guys that not only never deserved being drafted when they did, but many who weren't close to being NFL quality. Those drafts around 2011-2013 were as bad as it gets...
It's clear that John Mara is a horrendous owner...
Much has been made here about the vilification of Chris Mara, and this article I think presents the issue fairly. It is not that he is bad at his job or part of the problem (in fact the article implies he is pretty good at it). The point is that his ownership makes him unaccountable for his job performance. No matter what house cleaning is done in personnel, he is safe. That is not the way to run a successful organization.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
4 super bowls in that span... Is this an indictment?
Chris M is good at his job? He, and supposedly nephew Tim, have a good eye for talent.
Yet, the Giants suck at acquiring talent. Chris and Tim either suck at recognizing talent, or suck at persuading others in the room to see things their way. John M openly admits to believing in C and T opinions. That's a lot of weight, official or not.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
The Giants built the foundation for their last championship era with men like Coughlin, Accorsi, Reese, and Gettleman in positions that were proportional to their skills.
Those four were hired when Wellington was still the principal decision maker. He was still humbled enough to let the football guys mostly operate, and seemingly only weighed in on coach and GM hires.
There weren’t Maras in the personnel department when that core was being developed from 2004 forward.
The Giants need talent up and down the personnel department and coaching staff. The results are the results, the guys there now suck.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
RE: Today I learned: It was Mara himself that led to Eli's Benching
The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
Hopefully he is next, if any of the anonymous squabbling is true. But the point remains that they don’t just fire coaches.
but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
The Belichick quip sure stuck with me too, I think it was enormously enlightening and to the heart.
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Nothing shocking either. Seems Mara wanted a plan to succeed Eli earlier, but had to battle nostalgia. I’m not gonna pound the Giants for that.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
Nothing shocking either. Seems Mara wanted a plan to succeed Eli earlier, but had to battle nostalgia. I’m not gonna pound the Giants for that.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
in this article is all true, then why in the world would anyone want this job? Even if there are not very many GM jobs. Why take a chance at never getting another GM job again because of how you are likely to look once you're fired from the Giants GM position?
If what is said is true, any GM is working with a severe handicap.
more needs to be done internally, there's no reason to stop now except to protect a core group as rumored. Don't stop at 75%, push through to 100%. Otherwise, round and round we go.
The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
The whole point of the article that it is not a complete house cleaning. New GM and HC. But there are people in the personnel department who have been there for years and, regardless of performance, will stay in those roles and have influence.
How independent is a GM that is interviewing for a job with someone who will report to him? A guy who will absolutely be there longer than him and has his bosses ear?
The GM will have a John Mara above him and Chris Mara working for him. Those Maras are brothers and will have their own discussions outside the GM. In 10 years that GM will likely not be here, but both John and Chris Mara will.
I don't understand how anybody sees no problem with that structure.
that dysfunctional management of Accorsi/Reese et al when we won two Super Bowl championships..
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
I think you're whistling past the graveyard a bit here. The most recent SB teams were put together mostly under Wellington's guidance. Sure, John took over in 2005, but the GM, HC, QB and core of the team were in place. Once that broke down, they have not been able to replicate it.
The fact that Chris and Tim have zero accountability in the personnel dept is a problem, and a big one. Are scouts and other personnel staff going to be more loyal to the GM or to the 2 owners cosplaying as shadow GM's? They know the GM can be fired, but the owners can't, so it's human nature to protect your job, and keep the unfireable owners happy.
I would have to think that any of the highly regarded GM candidates will ask about separation of powers, and I'm sure they'll be told they have free reign, but will John Mara tell his brother and/or nephew to back off? We'll see.
Nothing shocking either. Seems Mara wanted a plan to succeed Eli earlier, but had to battle nostalgia. I’m not gonna pound the Giants for that.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
reports suggest mara in fact wanted to retain judge and it was tisch who forced the issue (per reports, it was also tisch who wanted to blow it all up in 2019 when shurmur was fired, but deferred to mara's wishes to let gettleman "finish what he started").
so not really sure how much credit we can give to mara here.
Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
RE: Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
That’s all this fan is asking..
As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
In a thread recently and was told I was overreacting. Turns out there was cause for concern.
But sunlight is the best disinfectant and the Mara family is finally in the spotlight for their meddling. I have to believe the Maras are uncomfortable with all the criticism and since public perception means everything to them, they'll give — reluctantly, but they'll give. Bc if it goes badly again, all the fingers will point straight at them. They can't hide anymore.
I remain hopeful the new GM will have authority to do his job now. Let's pray.
If we have credible information about this, then yeah, I agree. But if this is fans and media speculating and theorizing with no information beyond the team has been bad behind shitty GMs, then I'm not going to put much stock in it. So my question is, what is the source? All I see is claims and opinions.
They've sucked for a decade with multiple GM's and HC's, who get fired and replaced. Scouts get fired and replaced. Guess who doesn't get fired and replaced? Chris and Tim.
How can you "clean house" when two owners are squatting in the big bedrooms and won't leave? Asking for evidence is futile, the Mara's will never acknowledge any. We have heard anecdotal evidence of Chris's meddling. There was the report a couple of years ago that when McAdoo approached them about trading up for Mahomes, a group of personnel folks laughed at him and said that he didn't need to worry, that they had found the best QB in the draft - Davis Webb. Jordan Ranaan confirmed that he was told it was Chris Mara who said that.
While I think the idea that McAdoo wanted Mahomes is a bit overblown, even without Chris's interference, would Reese have paid a ransom to move up 13 or so spots? But it does point out an example of Chris Mara exerting his influence in a personnel decision.
Besides that, the idea that "they don't do anything" doesn't quite jibe with the "they're really good at their jobs" claim. Which is it?
We're all going to "see what happens". But if you can't take fans rightly being critical of ownership in the meantime, you might want to rethink coming out of your annual hiatus.
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
Re: Seems to me that Mara/Tisch were around for...
Seems logical to assume GM candidates are aware of these issues, that chain of command, org. structure, decision-making around scouting and personnel have been discussed during interviews and will be discussed further during the next round. Before this whole process started, the site was inundated with comments that these issues would scare away top-tier candidates. That does not seem to be the case. We'll see what the next round brings. I think it's less likely a new GM from outside the organization will be intimidated by how things have been done and by whom. Again, we'll see. And I know it's an unpopular take, but I think John Mara is painfully aware he's responsible for this mess and is sincere in doing what's necessary to clean it up, including stepping away and empowering the new GM to rebuild the organization.
RE: Mike as I saw I agree with you about all your saying
however, I do think we should wait until the New GM is hired. Obviously, any candidate worth anything, is going to address the family dynamic in the meeting. Obviously, it makes it harder to do with Chris being in the meetings, but I do think we should see what happens when they hire a new person. If Chris is still head of PP, then we have a big problem. But, I am betting guys like Schoen and Hortiz who will probably get a GM eventually are going to be careful about what they get themselves into and I think ownership realizes that if word spread that they lost desired candidates because of family influence below the GM position, that will be a PR Nightmare. So, let's just see what happens.
I am happy to wait and see what happens. If they hire a GM an announce a change in the personnel department and that Chris Mara and McDonnell will no longer be there, that is certainly addressing the problem. I will laud that decision if it is made.
But I am guessing none of the GM candidates walked into the interview with John and Chris Mara and announced part of his plan to overhaul the talent was to move Chris out, and Chris said "Gee, I really like that! We should hire this guy!"
Without those changes, this isn't a housecleaning. It is bringing in some different voices.
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
Lost me when liking guns is used to discredit Toney
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
goes to my Sunday thread re. who is the football person
guiding the GM search? If it ain't no adult from
outside the org, it's biz as usual at the family
laundromat. Giants need help with qualified new
managers at the top and getting rid of the
entrenched anchors
when the win the box (front 7 and OL/TE). Just about every issue has stemmed from this fundamental issue. Watching the playoff games shows that the more physical team is the one advancing still today. Change the GM, QB and HC as often as you want but until this simple fact is acknowledged and dealt with expect more pain.
The sad thing is the Giants used to be very good at building in these areas. Hopefully the new GM gets them back on the right path to where the Giants can get back to being Giants again.
2012 draft is a good reference point to where a huge shift in team building occurred and continued. I am hopeful that Mara has seen the light.
Either they operated under rigid rules regardless of talent or they couldn't see the obvious talent deficit (which is even worse).
You can't win big in the NFL with a lesser QB. The Giants should have prepared to move on rather than waiting around.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
Good to have you back.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
Quote:
In comment 15558863 JonC said:
Quote:
the influence and ineffective history of Chris Mara and McDonnell, and as long as they're entrenched there's significant risk for it to continue to be an obstacle. That doesn't figure to simply disappear without some pain points internally.
Jon, I here you, but where I struggle with this is, I can't tell if the issues with Chris Mara and McDonnell are a real problem or just inferred because they've remained there while the team's been bad. JM made it sound pretty clear that GM and HC make the calls. We never heard a peep about the issues from DG or JJ. If there is info from legitimate sources about issues, then I'm 100% behind the idea of issues that need to be addressed. But from my vantage point, it seems like one of those things that is talked like "common knowledge" where I'm not clear on the source. In this case, source matters.
What have you heard?
I think it boils down to the concept that the mere presence of owners in personnel roles is a problem, even if the individuals are competent, hard-working, and acting in good faith.
Regardless of what policies or powers are explicit, the is an appearance created of some people's voices inherently carrying greater weight than others at the same level. Perhaps greater than others at a higher level.
Whether or not that is ultimately the truth is actually somewhat unimportant. The mere appearance that it creates is a corrosive force in an organizational structure.
The concept gets quickly boiled down to "Chris and Tim SUX". Any maybe they do, and maybe they don't. But having them inserted in the mid-rungs of the organization is poison in either case.
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If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
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In comment 15558972 kelly said:
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If your scouting info and opinion is terrible you get terrible results, ie you get the Giants.
GM's and coaches rely on scouting reports to make decisions, obviously the Giant scouting reports suck. Here are some examples.
Evan Engram - undersized, can't block, bad hands,poor rout runner. but fast. If that was the scouting report Reese would never have picked him in first round. So what did Giant scouting report say?
It said Engram had some talent, but he was a bit of a reach as a Rd 1 pick so Buyer Beware...
At some point, Jerry Reese started to pick height, weight and speed guys. He struck gold w/ JPP and OBJ. That's about it.
Totally agree that Reese & Co. missed the boat bigtime for years on not finding, for lack of a better phrase, "just good football players".
So many guys that not only never deserved being drafted when they did, but many who weren't close to being NFL quality. Those drafts around 2011-2013 were as bad as it gets...
Our hopes lie in a blind squirrel finding a nut.
If you have a core of people in the operations who will be retained regardless of performance of their team, you have a problem.
The Giants have that problem and so far there is no indication that they have any plans to address it.
It was worthy of two posts.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
4 super bowls in that span... Is this an indictment?
Yet, the Giants suck at acquiring talent. Chris and Tim either suck at recognizing talent, or suck at persuading others in the room to see things their way. John M openly admits to believing in C and T opinions. That's a lot of weight, official or not.
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
Those four were hired when Wellington was still the principal decision maker. He was still humbled enough to let the football guys mostly operate, and seemingly only weighed in on coach and GM hires.
There weren’t Maras in the personnel department when that core was being developed from 2004 forward.
The Giants need talent up and down the personnel department and coaching staff. The results are the results, the guys there now suck.
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In comment 15559055 EricJ said:
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
Yeah, and then he scapegoats Reese and McAdoo when Eli and the fans cried about it.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
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In comment 15559061 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15559055 EricJ said:
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
They have turned over almost the entire scouting department. And rightly so. There is literally a fired scout having a meltdown on Twitter daily.
except pettit, who was promoted.
Hopefully he is next, if any of the anonymous squabbling is true. But the point remains that they don’t just fire coaches.
In comment 15559061 Go Terps said:
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but there was a segment buried within a youtube video about Tom Brady or BB. In that segment, the Pats were warming up on the field at Metlife and Bill was standing next to Brady talking about the Giants.
His initial comments were about his positive experiences in the Giants organization. However, at the end he said he comes back here and decades later it is the same people who were here in the 80s. They dont fire anyone and they never change is what he told Brady. They both laughed
"The only people they fire are the coaches." - Belichick
Let's be honest, any substantive change *may* only come with John, Chris, and Steve aging out.
Until then, just hope that "garbage in, garbage out" somehow becomes "garbage in, diamonds out".
The Belichick quip sure stuck with me too, I think it was enormously enlightening and to the heart.
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
Good post.
If what is said is true, any GM is working with a severe handicap.
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The whole point is that they are not changing this structure. We are bringing in a new GM and coach, but there are parts of the personnel department that are not being touched because they can't be.
If you want to say "if you won't win a superbowl you may as well be the worst team in the league" that's fine, but most fans do not measure success that way because it is a cop out. It sets the bar extremely high and then counts all shortfalls the same.
The whole point of the Duggan article was a new GM and new coach does not change many of the dysfunctional elements of the front office.
I want to win every game, always have. But my bottom line has always been championships/SB wins.
To me, a mew regime means new GM, new HC, new scouting system and so on. A clean house approach. The owner(s) isn’t (aren’t) going anywhere..
Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
The whole point of the article that it is not a complete house cleaning. New GM and HC. But there are people in the personnel department who have been there for years and, regardless of performance, will stay in those roles and have influence.
How independent is a GM that is interviewing for a job with someone who will report to him? A guy who will absolutely be there longer than him and has his bosses ear?
The GM will have a John Mara above him and Chris Mara working for him. Those Maras are brothers and will have their own discussions outside the GM. In 10 years that GM will likely not be here, but both John and Chris Mara will.
I don't understand how anybody sees no problem with that structure.
It NO LONGER MATTERS. JFC..Wash/Rinse/Repeat..We’re having a new regime coming in.
Meanwhile, all the highly functional organizations have so much to brag about outside of the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots this milennium..
Dallas, last SB win, 1996 and 3 playoff wins in a quarter of a century. Eagles, 1 Championship since 1960. Redskins (They’re dysfunctional for sure) 1 SB title in 30 years..Packers 1 championship in 25 years..And the list goes on and on..
We’ve mostly sucked since 2012 SB..Ok already..AGAIN, NEW REGIME. TBD.
I think you're whistling past the graveyard a bit here. The most recent SB teams were put together mostly under Wellington's guidance. Sure, John took over in 2005, but the GM, HC, QB and core of the team were in place. Once that broke down, they have not been able to replicate it.
The fact that Chris and Tim have zero accountability in the personnel dept is a problem, and a big one. Are scouts and other personnel staff going to be more loyal to the GM or to the 2 owners cosplaying as shadow GM's? They know the GM can be fired, but the owners can't, so it's human nature to protect your job, and keep the unfireable owners happy.
I would have to think that any of the highly regarded GM candidates will ask about separation of powers, and I'm sure they'll be told they have free reign, but will John Mara tell his brother and/or nephew to back off? We'll see.
The Chris Mara points are fair, he should be removed form personnel. If not, give up your stake in the team. Mike Lombardi complimented Chris Mara on last week’s GM Shuffle - called him a very good talent evaluator. The issue is being an owner though, should be removed.
I think it’s reasonable to think Gettleman increased dysfunction the last 4 years.
Lastly, the goalposts do move here a lot. All due respect to Eric, but he was posting often about the likelihood of Mara elevating Abrams. A lot others expected Abrams to be elevated and Judge retained. Well, that hasn’t happened & Abrams isn’t getting an interview. That’s where BBI gets frustrating, that DOES matter. Maybe it’s another failed regime, but Mara is going outside which many doubted would ever happen.
reports suggest mara in fact wanted to retain judge and it was tisch who forced the issue (per reports, it was also tisch who wanted to blow it all up in 2019 when shurmur was fired, but deferred to mara's wishes to let gettleman "finish what he started").
so not really sure how much credit we can give to mara here.
That’s all this fan is asking..
Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:
*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon
Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...
But sunlight is the best disinfectant and the Mara family is finally in the spotlight for their meddling. I have to believe the Maras are uncomfortable with all the criticism and since public perception means everything to them, they'll give — reluctantly, but they'll give. Bc if it goes badly again, all the fingers will point straight at them. They can't hide anymore.
I remain hopeful the new GM will have authority to do his job now. Let's pray.
If we have credible information about this, then yeah, I agree. But if this is fans and media speculating and theorizing with no information beyond the team has been bad behind shitty GMs, then I'm not going to put much stock in it. So my question is, what is the source? All I see is claims and opinions.
They've sucked for a decade with multiple GM's and HC's, who get fired and replaced. Scouts get fired and replaced. Guess who doesn't get fired and replaced? Chris and Tim.
How can you "clean house" when two owners are squatting in the big bedrooms and won't leave? Asking for evidence is futile, the Mara's will never acknowledge any. We have heard anecdotal evidence of Chris's meddling. There was the report a couple of years ago that when McAdoo approached them about trading up for Mahomes, a group of personnel folks laughed at him and said that he didn't need to worry, that they had found the best QB in the draft - Davis Webb. Jordan Ranaan confirmed that he was told it was Chris Mara who said that.
While I think the idea that McAdoo wanted Mahomes is a bit overblown, even without Chris's interference, would Reese have paid a ransom to move up 13 or so spots? But it does point out an example of Chris Mara exerting his influence in a personnel decision.
Besides that, the idea that "they don't do anything" doesn't quite jibe with the "they're really good at their jobs" claim. Which is it?
The Maras don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, and they're not going to get it.
I am happy to wait and see what happens. If they hire a GM an announce a change in the personnel department and that Chris Mara and McDonnell will no longer be there, that is certainly addressing the problem. I will laud that decision if it is made.
But I am guessing none of the GM candidates walked into the interview with John and Chris Mara and announced part of his plan to overhaul the talent was to move Chris out, and Chris said "Gee, I really like that! We should hire this guy!"
Without those changes, this isn't a housecleaning. It is bringing in some different voices.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
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Mara is a fan. He’s allowed his opinions, just as those on this board are.He signs off on big ticket items as ALL owners do. He leaves the day to day to his GM and coaches and is consulted as necessary. He’s no different than most if not all owners. You can question his hires for sure and many have been questionable, but by and large he leaves the day to day to the aforementioned.
Hopefully, he hits a home run with the new regime
did you miss the part in the article where it was mara who went to GM/HC and said it was time to get a look at the other quarterbacks in 2017? and then like a coward, fired mcadoo and reese when benching eli blew up in his face?
this is an example of mara directly inserting himself into a coaching decision. god knows what else he's doing, other than whiffing on GM and HC hires repeatedly.
Suggesting it might be time to get a look at the other QBs and benching Manning for Geno Smith is not quite the same think.
outside the org, it's biz as usual at the family
laundromat. Giants need help with qualified new
managers at the top and getting rid of the
entrenched anchors
The sad thing is the Giants used to be very good at building in these areas. Hopefully the new GM gets them back on the right path to where the Giants can get back to being Giants again.
2012 draft is a good reference point to where a huge shift in team building occurred and continued. I am hopeful that Mara has seen the light.