The titles of President and Vice President don’t indicate any involvement (at least to me) in the personnel department. And the Coordinator position sounds like it is someone learning the job, not an SVP of Player Personnel like Chris Mara.
I think everyone knows Colbert is the man making the decisions.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Davis Webb thing was infuriating
In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
The Mara/"postseason games" thing is alarming in terms of how many picks the Giants have targeted from the Senior Bowl. Suggests significant influence in the draft room. The last few years:
2018
Kyle Lauletta
BJ Hill
2019
Daniel Jones
Oshane Ximines
Corey Ballentine
2020
Carter Coughlin
Cam Brown
Darnay Holmes
Matt Peart
TJ Brunson
Ben Bredeson (not drafted, but acquired in trade)
2021
Kadarius Toney
Aaron Robinson
Elerson Smith
Quincy Roche (not drafted)
Rodarius Williams
The Mara/"postseason games" thing is alarming in terms of how many picks the Giants have targeted from the Senior Bowl. Suggests significant influence in the draft room. The last few years:
Why travel around the country? The Senior Bowl is one stop shopping for draft picks!
RE: RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
Sounds good to me, Sean. Let's hope they get it right this time.
RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
think of the Senior Bowl as a Cliff's Notes to the draft
Duggan is a terrific reporter who doesn't appear to have either an axe to grind or seem particularly worried about stepping on anyone's toes in the organization. He's very fair minded. He got a lot of real information, as opposed to speculation. And while it's not entirely clear still the exact role either Chris Mara or Tim McDonnel play in player acquisition, they are pretty clearly part of the football operation. When you have owners who are enmeshed in the day to day running of the team, the relationships they have with people in the building can complicate the ability to make change. One of Duggan's observations is that McDonnell is apparently close to Petit. We'll see what happens, but that seems exactly the sort of problem that even a new GM with a supposed mandate may not be able to overcome. If McDonnell wants Petit to stay, does the new GM think that's a battle worth fighting from day one? But that's how organizational change ends up constrained.
Quote:
Current and former employees say McDonnell is close to director of college scouting Chris Pettit, who has also climbed the ladder during the team’s tailspin. An area scout for 13 years before getting promoted by Gettleman in 2018, Pettit’s job could be in jeopardy with a new GM given the Giants’ poor draft record, but some wonder if he’ll be spared due to his relationship with McDonnell.
RE: RE: A question re. the difference with the Steelers
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
bidnis is bidnis
shocking how the Giants and Steelers manage to win so much...
it will never get better strictly because of the owner, and ignoring the distinct probability that owners tend to look very good or very bad based solely on who they hire at GM and HC, fine, go ahead and live that way.
But just know that the pro landscape is littered with proof that so called "BAD" owners do in fact win. They can love for ten years straight and then win for the following ten years based on the fact that the "bad" owner finally hired the right guy.
Take a wild guess what all these owners have in common:
Donald Sterling
George Steinbrenner
Wellington and John Mara
James Dolan
I can't think of any more for now, but I am 100% certain there are many many more. And what do they have in common? They all endured years of failure and in some cases scandal and ugly shit, only to also see that same owner preside over a long run of success or in Dolan's case he's done just fine with the Rangers will the Knicks have struggled BUT the knicks now look to be on the right track.
There is so much evidence to support the claims that Owners ebb and flow thanks to who they hire and fire and less data suggesting that their very existence or "influence" impacts wins and losses, it's virtually beyond reproach. You don't have to believe but when you belittle or condemn or mock or talk the same fucking tired shit day after day, well, here we are.
Believe what you want. We've seen this very franchise win and win big. We've see this very owner win and win big. But now he cannot win anymore just because you say so? Give us more than that. Proof.
I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
maybe Mara was this big bad troll the last ten years and maybe now he's learned a lesson. Maybe Chris has too much power, but I think in the end if we were run by a better GM and HC we'd have a much better record. If we draft the right guys in 18-19 we are in better shape today.
Hire the right people and let's hope for the best.
The Rangers have not made the playoffs in 5 years but I agree the arrow with the Rangers is pointing up and the Knicks aren't an embarrassment anymore even though they have a 0.0 chance of making the finals anytime soon.
George Steinbrenner is a poor example. Without getting too far into it his story is somewhat similar to Wellington's. When George was the GM the Yankees were the butt of jokes and won nothing. When Gabe Paul and Gene Michael were the GM they built the championship teams George got credit for despite him not because of him.
Donald Sterling lost for 30 years. His teams were a joke for decades.
These are not good examples and John Mara won in 07 and 11 and then he ended the George Young organizational model and here we are.
I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
Reese probably should have been fired too. They were both fired first for bad football teams.
Like I said, Mara has made plenty of mistakes. Not disputing that. I dispute the claims that unless Chris is removed and Mara is forced to commit seppuku in times square, we won't ever win again.
And I gotta be honest, I don't buy for one fucking second that Mara used them as shields with the whole QB debate. If the Giants were winning they don't get fired. If McAdoo doesn't lose the team he doesn't get fired. I don't even get that line. What does that even prove?
by the same people telling me this shit that James Dolan would NEVER EVER EVER allow for a Knicks team to rebuild. Now we have the same owner presiding over a Knicks team that has probably compiled one of the better young talent bases in the entire NBA.
Mara is the problem until he isn't the problem. If and when he hires the right HC and GM, he will no longer be the problem. I promise. Hold me to it. He has hired the wrong people. That's why he's firing them 2 years later.
What these people say in press conferences doesn't matter much
Look at their actions: Chris Mara is in the room interviewing GM candidates.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
The Giants most definitely do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. We agree there. No one should be betting any overs or setting aside playoff ticket money anytime soon. When they win again, they win again. Until then, no amount of hiring the right GM or HC will matter to me. It will look good, it might even feel pretty good, and I will at least hold hope some hope that maybe they finally got shit right, but I won't believe anything until I see it.
If you think I am waving any pom poms with these posts think again. Not everyone who disagree with you is looking at things with rose colored glasses. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the latest group think that Mara will inevitably ruin things. There is a ton of evidence to support the claim that if Mara likes who is running things he stays the fuck out of the way. Even at times to a fault. And you know that.
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
Again, see my post before this. I am not holding out hope for shit. I just disagree with this aggressive take on Mara. Don't know why someone can't say that's a pretty intense take while still thinking the team sucks.
RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
a perfect microcosm for the problems of the Giants organization.
Operating with much worse data, poor results, yet somehow still brazenly confident in the "process"
I think that is the reason I can't understand why anyone would say they are serious about real change or this is business as usual.
WE don't have enough data right now. This could very easily be us getting our pound of flesh so they can keep their ultimate control. Or they could have realized that unless they really cede some power and change this is going to get worse.
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
And this is even more reason why it was bullshit Gettleman “retired”, I will argue that DID matter.
RE: RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
some of you make it sound like MAra's very existence here will prevent the team from ever winning again. I don't buy that. I think that's an extreme take on things even if Duggan conjured up some anecdotal evidence. He's a good writer so I don't doubt this stuff but it doesn't prove the claim that Mara will continue to sabotage things.
You want to believe that be my guest. Pretty dark and morbid take on things. Especially when I have seen some brutal owners win and win big.
RE: RE: RE: told the same meaning Mara scapegoated McA/Reese
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
Ok fine, I don't doubt it. But that doesn't mean we never win again, lol.
He's had a brutal decade. Let's hope for the best moving forward. I can't do anything more than that.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
RE: Until they make changes in scouting/pro personnel
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Rudolph is a less important canary. Let’s see if Tim protects him.
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
I think internally Siam is the biggest litmus test. It can be said that he more clearly sucked at his job than Abrams, ESPECIALLY considering JJ's "spreadsheet" comment
But like Abrams all we heard was what a "star" he is.
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Agreed.
If the people that work in Scouting/Pro Personnel aren't
good at what they are doing, then it is up to the GM to implement good standards and processes including evaluating and changing out underperformers.
If Gettleman, and Reese before him, didn't do those things then it's because they themselves weren't good at what they were doing, and/or relied more on themselves (hubris) to make the right decisions.
Either way...find a competent GM that can display he has strong attributes at how a player evaluation process should operate, and things will get better for the NYG...
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
That is going to be the watershed for sure, specifically on Jones.
If Jones is retained, then (1) the GM has been told by ownership that they believe Jones should be given at least another year to be evaluated. Or (2) the GM actually likes Jones, which means he's probably the wrong choice for the role.
if this extensive GM search wasn't happening like this. But again, this nice sexy list of names doesn't ensure anything. This new GM still has to crush it here. And the HC has to be very good. I'll wait until we are winning games before I feel confident but I wouldn't posses a shred of hope if Judge was here and the GM search wasn't looking as good as it is.
Based on conjecture. DG was a putz. From day 1 when the plan was to draft a RB with the #2 overall pick and to win one more with Eli it was clear we were in for bad decision making at the top and we've endured four years of it. On the notion of deeper issues caused by Mara family involvement I have no direct knowledge of. There is smoke, yes, but sources unknown --twitter, Mark Ross??? It's a believable story, no doubt, and aligns with current wave of Mara hate, but that doesn't make it true. I don't know everything, but I know what I know and know what I don't know. This one falls into the category of the latter.
I think everyone knows Colbert is the man making the decisions.
Quote:
In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.
Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.
And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick
And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.
I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.
haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
2018
Kyle Lauletta
BJ Hill
2019
Daniel Jones
Oshane Ximines
Corey Ballentine
2020
Carter Coughlin
Cam Brown
Darnay Holmes
Matt Peart
TJ Brunson
Ben Bredeson (not drafted, but acquired in trade)
2021
Kadarius Toney
Aaron Robinson
Elerson Smith
Quincy Roche (not drafted)
Rodarius Williams
Why travel around the country? The Senior Bowl is one stop shopping for draft picks!
Quote:
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
Strong HC & GM. Ultimately that’s what is going to fix it here too. Need to get both of those roles right.
As christian once said (paraphrasing), “get a strong GM & HC, then the family stuff will take care of itself.”
Sounds good to me, Sean. Let's hope they get it right this time.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
Quote:
I think most people would agree the Steelers are pretty well run, based on their competitiveness year to year. Just wondering how is their org different from the Giants.
Arthur J. Rooney II President
Arthur J. Rooney Jr. Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr., Player Personnel Coordinator (listed 3rd in Football Ops, under VPs Colbert and Khan)
Those are just the ones with the last name Rooney (and there was a 4th before Daniel M. Rooney (Chairman) passed away a few yrs ago). I don't know if they have any family with a different name like McDonnell.
I'm not doubting it's a problem here, but any ideas why the family stuff isn't a problem in Pitt? Are the Rooney's just better at this?
I did this exercise awhile back only discover that the NFL is rife with nepotism/cronyism.
The Giants and Pitt are not the only teams engaging these kinds of hiring/firing practices.
bidnis is bidnis
shocking how the Giants and Steelers manage to win so much...
But just know that the pro landscape is littered with proof that so called "BAD" owners do in fact win. They can love for ten years straight and then win for the following ten years based on the fact that the "bad" owner finally hired the right guy.
Take a wild guess what all these owners have in common:
Donald Sterling
George Steinbrenner
Wellington and John Mara
James Dolan
I can't think of any more for now, but I am 100% certain there are many many more. And what do they have in common? They all endured years of failure and in some cases scandal and ugly shit, only to also see that same owner preside over a long run of success or in Dolan's case he's done just fine with the Rangers will the Knicks have struggled BUT the knicks now look to be on the right track.
There is so much evidence to support the claims that Owners ebb and flow thanks to who they hire and fire and less data suggesting that their very existence or "influence" impacts wins and losses, it's virtually beyond reproach. You don't have to believe but when you belittle or condemn or mock or talk the same fucking tired shit day after day, well, here we are.
Believe what you want. We've seen this very franchise win and win big. We've see this very owner win and win big. But now he cannot win anymore just because you say so? Give us more than that. Proof.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Depends on the prescription, I suppose.
Hire the right people and let's hope for the best.
George Steinbrenner is a poor example. Without getting too far into it his story is somewhat similar to Wellington's. When George was the GM the Yankees were the butt of jokes and won nothing. When Gabe Paul and Gene Michael were the GM they built the championship teams George got credit for despite him not because of him.
Donald Sterling lost for 30 years. His teams were a joke for decades.
These are not good examples and John Mara won in 07 and 11 and then he ended the George Young organizational model and here we are.
IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.
It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.
You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.
Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.
How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?
Like I said, Mara has made plenty of mistakes. Not disputing that. I dispute the claims that unless Chris is removed and Mara is forced to commit seppuku in times square, we won't ever win again.
And I gotta be honest, I don't buy for one fucking second that Mara used them as shields with the whole QB debate. If the Giants were winning they don't get fired. If McAdoo doesn't lose the team he doesn't get fired. I don't even get that line. What does that even prove?
Mara is the problem until he isn't the problem. If and when he hires the right HC and GM, he will no longer be the problem. I promise. Hold me to it. He has hired the wrong people. That's why he's firing them 2 years later.
The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
If you think I am waving any pom poms with these posts think again. Not everyone who disagree with you is looking at things with rose colored glasses. I just don't necessarily subscribe to the latest group think that Mara will inevitably ruin things. There is a ton of evidence to support the claim that if Mara likes who is running things he stays the fuck out of the way. Even at times to a fault. And you know that.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
Stop leaning on your hopes for what the Giants have done or will do, and watch their actions.
Again, see my post before this. I am not holding out hope for shit. I just disagree with this aggressive take on Mara. Don't know why someone can't say that's a pretty intense take while still thinking the team sucks.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
Operating with much worse data, poor results, yet somehow still brazenly confident in the "process"
I think that is the reason I can't understand why anyone would say they are serious about real change or this is business as usual.
WE don't have enough data right now. This could very easily be us getting our pound of flesh so they can keep their ultimate control. Or they could have realized that unless they really cede some power and change this is going to get worse.
He's been forced to overly compensate due to his own mistakes. Hire the right people and we will be fine.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
And this is even more reason why it was bullshit Gettleman “retired”, I will argue that DID matter.
Quote:
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
You want to believe that be my guest. Pretty dark and morbid take on things. Especially when I have seen some brutal owners win and win big.
Quote:
In comment 15559559 JonC said:
Quote:
That's what happened. Poorly planned and conceived and Mara reversed course due to the fan outrage.
I certainly hope they will finally change, as it's a significant leap for them to now modify or surrender the scouting/pro personnel depts. Big talent issues persists and the nameplates in charge are not being held accountable yet.
McAdoo was fucking terrible here. He had lost the team and needed to be fired. If he's 5-5 he's not getting fired for benching Eli.
I'm telling you from the back channels, he was fired to appease the fan base re: Eli's benching. I'd agree he was toast either way, but it was the Eli fiasco that got his access card (and Reese's) taken away the NEXT day.
Ok fine, I don't doubt it. But that doesn't mean we never win again, lol.
He's had a brutal decade. Let's hope for the best moving forward. I can't do anything more than that.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Rudolph is a less important canary. Let’s see if Tim protects him.
Quote:
The first canaries in the coal mine will likely be Jones and Barkley. No incoming GM/head coach in their right mind is going to want to hitch their wagons to either player. If either gets another contract, it's a strong sign that we are still completely fucked.
Jones & Barkley are so far gone. Mara pretty much admitted it “up to the GM”.
The bigger issue is Abrams, Pettit, Koncz, scouting, etc. I’m more curious/concerned if the new GM can build his football operations with his people.
I think internally Siam is the biggest litmus test. It can be said that he more clearly sucked at his job than Abrams, ESPECIALLY considering JJ's "spreadsheet" comment
But like Abrams all we heard was what a "star" he is.
It's just odd that 6 weeks ago Mara was never going out of his comfort zone. Was never going to fire Judge. Never hire a GM from outside.
He did fire Judge.
He isn't promoting Abrams.
He's going to hire an outsider GM.
So now I guess we pivot to this new thread? He's going to ruin everything no matter what?
People were wrong about this GM/HC process. Can we admit that or no?
Quote:
this isn't likely to change the product on gamedays.
It's up to Mara to enforce those changes, whatever it is, demotions, firings, there's plenty of evidence known to suggest there's plenty who should be ushered out of the Timex Center.
I’d b satisfied with the GM making the changes and Mara not protecting anyone.
Agreed.
If Gettleman, and Reese before him, didn't do those things then it's because they themselves weren't good at what they were doing, and/or relied more on themselves (hubris) to make the right decisions.
Either way...find a competent GM that can display he has strong attributes at how a player evaluation process should operate, and things will get better for the NYG...
That is going to be the watershed for sure, specifically on Jones.
If Jones is retained, then (1) the GM has been told by ownership that they believe Jones should be given at least another year to be evaluated. Or (2) the GM actually likes Jones, which means he's probably the wrong choice for the role.
He wants to win, but he won't turn over every stone to do it. That's a problem in an ultra competitive environment.
He wants to win, but he won't turn over every stone to do it. That's a problem in an ultra competitive environment.
Mara has perfect opportunity turn it all over now, and keep himself distanced from the carnage, by putting the new GM at forefront...
It's just odd that 6 weeks ago Mara was never going out of his comfort zone. Was never going to fire Judge. Never hire a GM from outside.
He did fire Judge.
He isn't promoting Abrams.
He's going to hire an outsider GM.
So now I guess we pivot to this new thread? He's going to ruin everything no matter what?
People were wrong about this GM/HC process. Can we admit that or no?
You're all over the place as is your style, but this post is fine. As much as folks won't admit it...
:-)