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Duggan has article on NYG dysfunction.

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/18/2022 8:35 am
I can't link it, but worth a read for The Athletic subscribers here.
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Some folks went to the extreme  
JonC : 1/18/2022 4:08 pm : link
but certainly not all. Think we can all agree right now it's about actions and some necessary ones remain to be demonstrated.
RE: Some folks went to the extreme  
Sean : 1/18/2022 4:09 pm : link
In comment 15559657 JonC said:
Quote:
but certainly not all. Think we can all agree right now it's about actions and some necessary ones remain to be demonstrated.

Well said. We’ll find out a lot in the next month or so.
Poor Leadership  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 1/18/2022 4:10 pm : link
Who the hell would want to work for these A-holes?

You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...

Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.

Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?

What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.
Things are looking up  
Go Terps : 1/18/2022 4:15 pm : link
Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.

It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.

An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.
RE: Things are looking up  
Sean : 1/18/2022 4:24 pm : link
In comment 15559671 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.

It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.

An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.

Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.

I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.
RE: 1964 - 1980  
Route 9 : 1/18/2022 4:31 pm : link
In comment 15558977 M.S. said:
Quote:

Brace yourselves: 2017 - 2033


Wouldn't it start 2013?
I am very happy to see today's article in The Athletic  
arniefez : 1/18/2022 4:56 pm : link
for YEARS I've been arguing with people here about the Mara's and Chris Mara. When I started posting about Chris Mara, to say that it wasn't met with enthusiasm or agreement would be an understatement. I promise I'm going to try to stop posting about Chris Mara now that the curtain has finally been pulled back and the reason the Giants are such a mess is becoming obvious. But when I began to talk about how the Giants were being run there certainly wasn't any mainstream media backing me up.

I'll take Duggan's article at almost face value. He's covered the Giants for a while and even though I'm sure what he wrote won't be well received at 1925 Giants Way I thought it was pretty balanced.

Quote:
Chris Mara’s candidacy was tricky. Sure, he was a part-owner, but he paid his dues, becoming a Giants scout in 1979 and spending 14 years combing the country for draft prospects. “He was one of the best scouts,” said Jerry Shay, a Giants scout from 1973 to 2011. “I just think he had a great knack for recognizing talent.”


Jerry Shay didn't say Chris Mara was combing the country those are Duggan's words and he wasn't around in the 80's that's for sure. For those of you who don't know who Jerry Shay is; he was the 7th pick in the 1966 draft by the Vikings and ended his career with the Giants. He had a career ending broken leg in 1971. He was only 27 and a pretty good DT at the time. He became a scout for the Giants when his playing career ended and was kept on and promoted by George Young if I remember correctly (always questionable).

He is 77 years old now. He described his time with the Giants like this:

Quote:
Shay said he enjoyed his career as a college scout. “I was on the road about 200 days during the year,” he recalled. “You got to meet the top college coaches, visit the top college programs, stay in nice hotels, you got to meet a lot of nice people.”


Does anyone really think that Chris Mara lived Jerry Shay's college scout life? When I traveled with the team - separately but stayed in the team hotels and there was literally zero security, we had access to anywhere we wanted to go. Chris Mara was there and he was the owners son. In a suit, sitting next his father on the team bus. During the college football season. Every time I was there from 86-90. I was at 2 or 3 away games each year. Maybe Chris Mara was a scout but he certainly didn't live like one.

George Young is the HOF for many reasons. He was a very smart man.

Quote:
Young blocked Chris’ ascension to head of player personnel — “We can’t have any fire-proof heads of player personnel,” Young said, according to Accorsi’s biography


Someone forgot to tell the 2nd generation of Tisch Family owners. They blocked Chris Mara from becoming GM in 2007 but they left the back door open. The Mara's haven't had to use too many back doors in their gilded lives but they used this one to their advantage and the demise of the Giants.

Quote:
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”

“It doesn’t matter what you talk about in the meetings when they go home for dinner and they’re brothers and they’re family.” “It’s just a whole dynamic that you can’t fight.”


Likely Marc Ross as the source but the fact that he's bitter and an ass doesn't make it untrue.

Quote:
An executive of a rival NFL team with no family members in the personnel department understood how the Giants’ structure could create problems.

“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”


And then there's Tim McDonnell. I hope this paragraph is the case. It certainly is a different story than the scouts on Twitter but they're not objective, one was recently fired by the Giants and the other is another teams scout who is anonymous.

Quote:
McDonnell earns universal praise for his work ethic. And a former member of the coaching staff supported Mara’s claim about the respect for McDonnell within the organization. “I think Tim is the best of the personnel people in there,” the former coach said. “He wants to change things and get it right.”


I'm into the weeds here and asking questions I'll never have the answers to. But if you've been following all of this including Baghdad Pat's attempted take down of the Giants former scout on Twitter by basically telling him he should have been fired sooner, maybe we can thank Tim McDonnell for that. Of course the article also mentions how close he is with Chris Pettit and that there's a protected clique in the Giants front office that stays when the GM's and coaches go and how much that clique has to do with the current state of the team.

Quote:
McDonnell’s ascension has raised eyebrows. He spent six years as a pro scout before getting promoted by Gettleman to assistant director of player personnel in 2019. Two years later, he was named co-director of player personnel. For perspective on where that title ranks in the hierarchy of an NFL front office, three of the nine candidates for the Giants GM job are currently directors of player personnel for their teams.

“He hasn’t cut his teeth long enough to be co-director of player personnel,” said a former Giants scout.

John Mara insisted last week that McDonnell “does not have any authority.” But his prominence undoubtedly has grown. When war rooms for the 2021 draft were limited to 10 people due to COVID-19 restrictions, McDonnell had a spot among the Giants’ top decision-makers.


The article also mentions that EVERYTHING gets run by John Mara, usually as a rubber stamp but everything means everything.

So far I think the Giants have done just about everything I could have hoped for in the GM search including firing Judge even though I still like him and think he was sabotaged and had no chance to succeed. I hope they make a good choice for GM and let him hire the coach and clean out the front office. It would be nice if the games went back to being the fun part of following the Giants not the palace intrigue of an emperor that has no clothes.
I thought this was a significant quote from the article  
.McL. : 1/18/2022 5:10 pm : link
Quote:
It’s challenging to quantify if one voice carries more weight in that collaborative process. And even Chris Mara’s critics concede that he’s not an overpowering presence in personnel meetings. But former employees also said his opinions implicitly carry more weight.
“You can’t treat him the same as a scout or a coach,” said a former member of the Giants front office. “If the owner says something, you’re going to have to take that into account more so than someone else. I know this guy owns the team, so we have to sort of navigate around what he wants.”


I ecstatic that Gettleman is gone.
I am very happy that Judge is gone too.

Make no mistake, these are very positive moves and they bring hope that the franchise will turn things around. However, it will still take a Strong GM who can push through some added bullshit and necessary obstacles.

The quote above clearly defines the added obstacles.

Does it mean that the Next GM regime is doomed to fail before it even starts. NO, absolutely not. It just makes the job a bit harder and as Terps has said, it increases the probability of failure.

If you want you best chance of success, remove any and every obstacle, real or perceived. And make no mistake, perceptions matter. These are people in the building. They are not robots. There is a lot of unconscious psychology that just isn't helpful.

Let's put it this way. All things being equal, any given team only has about a 3% chance of winning a SB. That means that over a 10 year period that a front office only has about a 26% chance of success. Why reduce that even by 1% point, by creating a less than optimal structure.
arnie and McL - enjoyed the reads above.  
Jimmy Googs : 1/18/2022 5:35 pm : link
Not aligned with every aspect but much of it, and always like your perspectives on things nonetheless.
RE: Front Office Quote  
SMitch-56 : 1/18/2022 9:45 pm : link
In comment 15558983 Bernie said:
Quote:
“There was no structure, no accountability. You have people in positions that are just god-awful that have been there for so long. They need to bring in a third party and they need to audit everything from top to bottom, in terms of processes, quality of staff, plan, protocols.”

This confirms what we all assumed and partially explains how they have been so bad at talent acquisition. As for Chris Mara, the problem is that he never has to fear for his job. He will always be an owner. He might make some good choices and might make some bad ones, but this dynamic will always be intimidating to an outsider. That to me is a problem.



+1
RE: As noted above, so many complaining about unknowns  
SMitch-56 : 1/18/2022 9:58 pm : link
In comment 15559108 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and intertwined front office items that may not really be causing any issues other than conspiracy perceptions.

Meanwhile, you have to very pleased with what the Owners are undertaking (if indeed carried out) as it flies in the face of most of the threads and comments have been on here for past few weeks:

*Ended Gettleman's term as GM
*Not interviewing Abrams for job
*Only interviewing outside candidates, many from successful franchises or rebuilds, and many are top names available
*Ended Judge's term as Head Coach
*Leaving the new GM in charge of finding/hiring new Head Coach
*Indicated GM/Coach will run decisions on future of some key players like Jones and Saquon

Good lord, this is a home run if all carried out. What the hell else do you people really need...


We’ll, us people (fans) would like to see a winning organization not dragged down by cronyism. From the cheerleading spin it would seem the employees enjoy the status quo jobs for life regardless of performance.
RE: RE: and when I say give us proof  
GiantTuff1 : 1/18/2022 10:20 pm : link
In comment 15559525 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15559512 djm said:


Quote:


I don't mean show me their losing record over the last ten years. We know the record.

IN particular, I love how terps said Mara is the GM for the last month or more, only to see that same controlling evil troll go out and conduct an extensive search for a real GM that will in fact be a real GM here, under Mara.

It's ok to be wrong. The Giants suck and may suck for the next 10 years yet again. But it won't be because Mara is forcing the GM and HC to make the wrong moves. It will be because he hired the wrong GM and HC to begin with.

You go as far as the HC and QB. It's that fucking simple.



Mara has operational control over the GM - did you read the article? He leaned on Reese and McAdoo to get a look at the other QBs. They did it. People got angry, so Mara fired his meat shields Reese and McAdoo. Then he replaced them with new meat shields.

How the fuck is this not obvious to every single Giants fan?


x1,000,000,000
RE: What these people say in press conferences doesn't matter much  
GiantTuff1 : 1/18/2022 10:23 pm : link
In comment 15559551 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Look at their actions: Chris Mara is in the room interviewing GM candidates.

The top of the football ops org chart is John and Chris. And while it may feel good to just say it's about the head coach and players, John and Chris are the reasons that we end up with Davis Webb instead of Mahomes, with Barkley instead of Josh Allen, and so on.


Again spot on.

Idiot owners involved in football operations and when the heat is turned up the x-rays alway show Mara has no spine, and he leads the next ring of HCs and GMs to slaughter.

Meat shields are an apropos name.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Davis Webb thing was infuriating  
SMitch-56 : 1/18/2022 10:49 pm : link
In comment 15559445 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15559419 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


In comment 15559398 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:


Quote:


In comment 15559126 jestersdead said:


Quote:


In comment 15559119 Go Terps said:


Quote:


All you had to do was watch him throw the ball five times to know he didn't have it. For Chris to push for him and still have a voice of influence...yikes.

Maybe it was one too many mint julips in his draft war room at Churchill Downs.



And the flip side to that is, Bradshaw in the 7th round. Which the article credits him for pushing that pick



And he knew about Bradshaw because his daughter was a student at Marshall and told her dad about Bradshaw. At least, that is the story I read years ago.



I don't think either of his daughters attended Marshall. You may be blurring the fact that Kata Mara was in the movie "We are Marshall" with having actually attended the school.



haha, that's classic. Fitting post for threads like these...


Yep, try to discredit the post (and thread) by belittling an error that, in the main, was correct. In a puff news story lauding CM as some wunderkind who could do double duty as a personnel guy and still Attend the KDerby as an owner (but in retrospect was a hugely damning article) it also reported that CM’s big find (Bradshaw) occurred because Kate happened to be doing a film on campus and learned of him and pointed him out to her father. So yeah, great scouting detective work canvassing the little know college backwaters….
Apologies for upsetting your deeper takes on this thread.  
Jimmy Googs : 1/18/2022 10:58 pm : link
Do we know each other?
Re John Mara supposedly only weighing in on character  
shyster : 1/18/2022 11:19 pm : link
A few years ago, when JM was asked about his role in the draft, he said he would make the final decision when the GM and HC disagreed about a player.

He did not limit his involvement to off-the-field concerns.

I distinctly recalled this statement and, by google search, was able to find confirmation, from a 2016 article:

Quote:
Giants owner John Mara empowers general manager Jerry Reese to have final say in most matters. But Mara sits in on draft meetings and studies the book of scouts' reports. And if there is a disagreement between Reese and the head coach, Mara casts the tiebreaker.


I take JM's statement at his most recent PC about off-the-field issues as a strategic public relations retreat in the face of criticism, rather a reflection of any real change in his role, up until now.

And I never took the "I just break the tie" characterization at face value either. This is what he does, or has been doing, with his life.

Maybe that will change.

bleacher report - ( New Window )
RE: Poor Leadership  
GiantTuff1 : 1/19/2022 6:55 am : link
In comment 15559663 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:
Quote:
Who the hell would want to work for these A-holes?

You're hired to do a job but they are calling the shots behind the scene and may be undermining your work. Then, you get to be the fall guy for their incompetence, if things dont work out...

Im seriously surprised the Mara reputation/ brand has not been further damaged after how they treated the past few coaches and Reese. This is a job where candidates are being put in a situation to fail.

Will the the fans ever be fully able to understand who is culpable for the lack of success?

What a bunch of coward owners with no morality and ethics. The Maras want credit but no accountability.


+1

Yup. Spineless cowards who pull the next patsy in front of them to take all the bullets. Rinse and repeat.

They are so bad at their job and are such weak leaders they cannot even stand tall in their convictions on who they hire even in the face of a little heat.

A sign of poor ethics, poor leadership, and zero confidence in their own decision making. Oh but we’re such a classy organization. GTFOH.
RE: RE: Things are looking up  
GiantTuff1 : 1/19/2022 7:08 am : link
In comment 15559693 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15559671 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Things will improve simply through Gettleman's removal - he was football ebola.

It's also possible that the flawed processes in place result in a really good GM hire who revitalizes the football operations.

An unhealthy process can still yield good results. It's just that over time the odds for major problems to arise are greater.


Mara is never going to be an absentee owner. For what it’s worth, he was right to want to think about succession plans at QB in 2014/15, and he was right to want to get a look at QB’s in a lost season in 2017.

I don’t know who came up with the exact “plan” in the Eli/Geno debacle, but Mara caving to fans is a problem. But, Mara is never going to be missing games or just parachuting in at the end of the season. Hire a strong GM, and I think a lot of this stuff can get better.


This. It shows how weak of a leader he is…

I know it’s not popular but if he had such strong conviction to hire the likes of McAdoo and Judge it would be great for once for him to tell the fans to just STFU — “We hired these guys for XYZ reasons and ABC legitimate reasons impeded progress, but we strongly believe in them 100%”.

Any great team leader will take bullets for their staff, but Mara pushes his guys off the plank the first signs of distress. It is weak beyond words.

Maras wishy washy convictions and feeding coaches and GMs to the slaughter house every few years makes me skeptical on this process unless the GM has power without the influence of others.

Their decision making card should be revoked once a real football guy comes in.
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