Apologies for making this its own thread, but it's a specific point that I don't think has been mentioned anywhere else so wanted to give it its own show.
After hearing the Cowboys claim in defense of the play that they had practiced it every Friday for weeks and were confident that 14 seconds was enough time to execute it successfully, I wonder if they practiced it with a referee. The lesson learned could be that when practicing a play in which the referee has a role, you damn well better have someone playing that role in your practice session and he better be lined up where he would be in a real game.
Now perhaps it's the case that they did have someone playing that role in practice. In which case, there is very little excuse for their poor execution. Every player should've known about the need to make space for the referee to touch/place the ball (since when does the team's center get to determine the spot?). And if they didn't include a "referee" when practicing the play, well, shame on them and lesson learned.
That is all, I'll delete this thread if someone can point me to a thread with this discussion on it. And, again, my apologies for the attention whoring.
I definitely don't think McCarthy and the boys practice that. Especially committing 14 penalties.
However, they die on that hill that they should have had more time to run another miracle play. And the fans will eat it up and believe they were robbed.
All that money spent on Dak Prsecott and he can't throw the ball to win a playoff game? All those receivers? Zeke?
I love it.
The umpire knows his job is to get the ball marked as fast as possible, and if Prescott had gotten up and handed the ball to him and the center had cleared a path, they'd have gotten the ball spiked in time.
The fact that Prescott was under center with his back to the umpire suggests this was an error in preparation.
I'm surprised they didn't take 2 shots into the end zone from the 40 instead of trying to get closer and have 1 shot from the 30.
But, then again, McCarthy.
(2) The biggest issue is that Dallas spotted the ball like 2 yards ahead of where it should have been spotted. The NFL generally allows a 1 yard grace when you are spiking the ball. In addition to handing the ball to the official, they should have looked at the sideline where the DJ or LJ (didn't see which one it was) was clearly marking the correct Line of Scrimmage.
The play was to gain about 10 yards
If it had been 10 yards it would have worked with time to spare
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why do you guys always refer to the Umpire as the Referee?
I was actually going to say umpire but since a practiced play may possibly involve a referee or line judge I decided to go with the all-inclusive generic term.
This was always the biggest knock on McCarthy was situational football.
With 14 seconds everything has to go perfect.
And why does the umpire need to behave differently on this play than on normal plays? In every play, the play is not allowed to proceed until the umpire has spotted the ball and assumed his position behind the line, opposite the referee.
The play was to gain about 10 yards
If it had been 10 yards it would have worked with time to spare
Exactly. I think Dak got greedy. The hole was bigger than expected and he took it and it cost them time. They practiced it? They practiced it with how many seconds left ? 20? 18? 14? doubt they practiced it for every time situation. As Archer said my guess they had it practiced to go for ten yards and they knew approx how long it would take. Dak ran to far and doubled the mistake by not giving the ball to the ref. That is important. I doubt they practiced it as often and as efficient as they needed to.
But the thing that gets lost here, is that even if they were able to stop the clock, the Cowboys still had to convert on a 24-yd TD play against one of the better defenses in the league. What are the odds on that kind of conversion? 1 in 1,000?
I would also add that Prescott (or a coach) should have told the umpire that this was a possibility prior to the play so the umpire would know to hurry to place the ball as soon as possible. My guess is he was just as surprised as everyone else when he saw Dak just take off.
I would also add that Prescott (or a coach) should have told the umpire that this was a possibility prior to the play so the umpire would know to hurry to place the ball as soon as possible. My guess is he was just as surprised as everyone else when he saw Dak just take off.
If true than he's even dumber than I thought. Dak should have handed the ump the ball, just like every other play in the game of football. The rules don't change because you are in hurry up mode at the end of the game.
But the thing that gets lost here, is that even if they were able to stop the clock, the Cowboys still had to convert on a 24-yd TD play against one of the better defenses in the league. What are the odds on that kind of conversion? 1 in 1,000?
Better than a 41 yard one?
BOOM!
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that ref in practice knows what is coming. In a game they have no idea. So to sprint down, get between the OLmen to get to the ball and still have time is asking a lot!
The umpire knows his job is to get the ball marked as fast as possible, and if Prescott had gotten up and handed the ball to him and the center had cleared a path, they'd have gotten the ball spiked in time.
The fact that Prescott was under center with his back to the umpire suggests this was an error in preparation.
That isn't the point, the point is you are asking for a LOT of moving parts to be right. Plus, it is not exactly a given that the ball gets set and they spike it there.
Dak's obvious mistake is not even looking for the ref who arrives in the picture at 4 seconds. If he had handed him the ball to him instead of the center who was grabbing for it, they probably would have had time to line up and spike it.
So the mistake, as discussed, is in not finding the ref and handing him the ball.
Dak's obvious mistake is not even looking for the ref who arrives in the picture at 4 seconds. If he had handed him the ball to him instead of the center who was grabbing for it, they probably would have had time to line up and spike it.
So the mistake, as discussed, is in not finding the ref and handing him the ball.
Yep. They were in desperation mode and these things happen, even if practiced as they said.
Nevertheless, given the circumstances facing them on that last drive, I thought Dallas did a pretty good job in even getting it to that point...
He had to spot it where Dak was marked down. His knee hit at the 25, and they put the ball nearly to the 23. You don't just get two free yards because you're in a hurry.
It is pretty apparent that these thrown together officiating crews didn't work out. Boger was his predictable self, and I am sure the League was not happy with 23 flags thrown in a playoff game. I imagine we will see a change in emphasis for next week.
c'est la vie
I hadn't realized that at first. They got the snap off just in time. Would have been even crazier if he hadn't spiked it and made a play instead.
It has to be out there. I mean if Indy can find the holy grail and the arc someone has to be able to find the "unholy frail of Jerruh"
c'est la vie
It looks like the main reason the umpire ran into Dak was that he expected him to hand him the ball, too. He seems to be putting his arms out to take the ball and then is surprised when Dak turns his back in front of him to get under center.
I hope they sign McCarthy to a 10 year extension.
The umpire is responsible for placing the ball at the actual spot. The center doesn't get to determine the spot.
As it was even after the umpire placed the ball it was still around a yard farther than it should have been.
The Cowboys screwed up, plain and simple.
could the defense have done that?
Better than a 41 yard one?
With 14 seconds left, they would have had 3 shots at the end zone, so I'm not sure their odds would have been worse than with one shot at 24 yards.
The 49ers led the league in DPIs, per The Football Database
The Football Database - ( New Window )
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Was just touch the ball. He didn’t even have to pick it up and place it down.
He had to spot it where Dak was marked down. His knee hit at the 25, and they put the ball nearly to the 23. You don't just get two free yards because you're in a hurry.
Had they put it at the 24 the ump just touches the ball (NFL grants one yard buffer, not 2 yards)
Glad you aren't an umpire.
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Better than a 41 yard one?
With 14 seconds left, they would have had 3 shots at the end zone, so I'm not sure their odds would have been worse than with one shot at 24 yards.
Yeah but you'd have to factor in the high turnover probability on a 50+ yard pass (assuming he's a decent amount behind the LOS) to the endzone.
In this case, Prescott ran too far and failed to hand the ball to the ref, while the o-line crowded things too much. The play could have further been complicated by the defender getting up slower after making the tackle.
With 14 seconds left and no timeouts, going to the middle of the field like that is usually going to end the game, as it did in this situation.
2) As stated, how was the ref factored into that practice. Romo on the broadcast quickly noted that he had to hand the ball to the ump, he's got to touch it.
3) Key point: why would the Cowboys expect the ump to do something special for them? Refs should behave more or less the same for every team on every play as far as spotting the ball, etc. If the ref does something special, the other team would have a legit gripe the refs were helping the opponent.
4) Some people act like this lost them the game. All it lost them was a CHANCE for a last gasp. It's not like this was a FG and all they needed to do was line up and it was like 90% likely they get it. What is the likelihood of success on a last gasp play from the 30 where you MUST have a TD and the defense knows it so they rush the passer and the DBs back up by the goal line? Maybe 10%? The way they played that game there was a 30% chance they got a penalty on their final play anyway.
And why does the umpire need to behave differently on this play than on normal plays? In every play, the play is not allowed to proceed until the umpire has spotted the ball and assumed his position behind the line, opposite the referee.
Former lineup of officials had the umpire, in effect, behind or amid the linebackers. That was deemed too dangerous for him in today's game so he's mostly lined up wide of the referee (who's the one in the white hat). The alignment is different, i.e. reverts to original alignment, in the last two minutes of halves.
The last half minute merely proved it to any doubters who were watching the game.
Unless there's a rule against it. This should be a much easier play to practice, I think
In this case, Prescott ran too far and failed to hand the ball to the ref, while the o-line crowded things too much. The play could have further been complicated by the defender getting up slower after making the tackle.
With 14 seconds left and no timeouts, going to the middle of the field like that is usually going to end the game, as it did in this situation.
This is my take. I don't know how calculated the risk was by Dallas, but this needed everything to go 100% as planned with no deviation at all in order to work. I'd actually be fine with McCarthy saying "look, we were in a bad spot there and practiced this scenario many times and if everything went how we planned it, we felt it could work. We thought this would have a higher success rate than 50 yard passes to the end zone."
Instead he played the blame game and its just a really bad look when the probability there was incredibly low given the time left.
I think those are valuable yards picked up, different than sending a WR over the middle because:
A) a gang tackle slows the process.
B) a tackle outside the hashes slows the process
C) the ball is in the hands of the guy you want. Dak should’ve slid, hung on to the ball and basically looked for the ref to hand It to him himself. That’s why the practice line really doesn’t hold up. Daks the best guy to have the ball and wait for the ref on that play.
Also- I’ve seen people say the yards aren’t worth It….i think they are and it’s a fairly large difference. Dak letting the ball go from the 50 is a Hail Mary..from the high 20s at the very least he could throw the ball to a spot, on a line. Think of the niners play with young TO against the packers. Hits him in stride. And yes the play wasn’t defended well lol. But i do think those are valuable yards. That’s why when the defense is defending the sideline making It impossible for a 15 yard out route, i don’t HATE the QB keeper. However expecting to nail It with 14 seconds was an outrageous call. I think you’re cutting It close even with 20. With 25 on the clock and you’re pressing for those 20 yards for an easier shot at the endzone, i truly don’t hate It. Keep the ball in the hands of the guy you want and pick up those yards without a receiver getting gang tackled.
Unless there's a rule against it. This should be a much easier play to practice, I think
It would get respotted at where it went out of bounds so you would probably lose about 5 yards because you will want to be sure it is not an illegal forward pass
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Line up a WR on each side, and instruct them to trail Dak (knowing this was a QB run). Then instead of sliding, Dak just throws a lateral pass out of bounds over the WR's head. The clock should stop, so you don't have to worry about placement and spiking.
Unless there's a rule against it. This should be a much easier play to practice, I think
It would get respotted at where it went out of bounds so you would probably lose about 5 yards because you will want to be sure it is not an illegal forward pass
5 yards would be ok. If executed properly, that would have given Dallas the ball on the 30-35 yard line with 8-9 seconds left, enough for at least one and possibly two shots in the end zone.
Also, that's why I would have the WR's know to trail the QB, so there's no possibility of a forward pass. All Dak would have to do is throw at them, but over their head. The advantage here is that you don't have to worry about the umpire spotting the ball, thus saving seconds.
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In comment 15559325 JohnF said:
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Line up a WR on each side, and instruct them to trail Dak (knowing this was a QB run). Then instead of sliding, Dak just throws a lateral pass out of bounds over the WR's head. The clock should stop, so you don't have to worry about placement and spiking.
Unless there's a rule against it. This should be a much easier play to practice, I think
It would get respotted at where it went out of bounds so you would probably lose about 5 yards because you will want to be sure it is not an illegal forward pass
5 yards would be ok. If executed properly, that would have given Dallas the ball on the 30-35 yard line with 8-9 seconds left, enough for at least one and possibly two shots in the end zone.
Also, that's why I would have the WR's know to trail the QB, so there's no possibility of a forward pass. All Dak would have to do is throw at them, but over their head. The advantage here is that you don't have to worry about the umpire spotting the ball, thus saving seconds.
I would also make sure there is at least 10 seconds on the clock because if something happens where there is a runoff it does not end the game
could the defense have done that?
I would have loved to see this!
Because I can't type "umpire" without thinking of Angel Hernandez.
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why do you guys always refer to the Umpire as the Referee?
Because I can't type "umpire" without thinking of Angel Hernandez.
If someone knows something that I missed, please impart it, but that's what I saw when Shanahan called time out. 38 seconds, not 40.
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right before he started his slide and gave him the bum rush down the field towards the end zone, aiding his forward progress but not letting him slide? and then tackle him when the clock is at 0.
could the defense have done that?
I would have loved to see this!
No one is gonna make contact with a sliding QB in that situation and risk a roughing the passer flag.
If someone knows something that I missed, please impart it, but that's what I saw when Shanahan called time out. 38 seconds, not 40.
You make a good point and let me expand upon the time clock issue and how it benefited Dallas.
On the third down play, the RB hit the ground at 1:13. The 40 second play clock started to count off at 1:11, which would be normal since it usually takes the official a couple of seconds to set the ball.
Time out for measurement was called at 1:00 with the play clock at 29 seconds.
After the review, the time clock was reset to 1:04 and the play clock reset to 25. Romo noticed this gave Dallas an eight second benefit but he had no idea why this happened.
If the third down play had come up a full yard short and there had been no measurement or review, the Niners would have been able to run the clock down to 31 seconds.
As it was the two clocks restarted at 1:04 and :25. There was a slight offset in the running of the clocks and, as you say, the time clock showed :38 seconds when Shanahan called time out.
As the Niners were huddling for the fourth down play, the time clock was reset from :38 to :40 with no comment from the announcers.
Since both clocks had been reset together, 26 seconds should not have elapsed off the play clock, so that would be a justification for moving the play clock from :38 at least back to :39 seconds. And perhaps there is also a rule that if you take a timeout rather than a delay penalty, you are considered to have taken it one second before the play clock runs out.
And adding one more second gets the play clock back to :40.
I can accept that part of it.
But the real issue for me is the previous eight second benefit Dallas got that Romo did notice and couldn't explain.
Why should the Niners suffer a critical time penalty because the third down play gained just enough yardage to require measurement and review?
youtube end of game - ( New Window )
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In comment 15558959 Big Al said:
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why do you guys always refer to the Umpire as the Referee?
Because I can't type "umpire" without thinking of Angel Hernandez.
I had to Google him since I had no idea who he is. I gave up watching baseball over 40 years ago.
Well, a life free of Angel Hernandez is one of the clear positives of giving up on the game!
I know NFL for safety reasons change his position years ago, but I thought in last minutes of half and games he returned to his customary place behind the defense, to avoid just such an occurrence, guess I am wrong.
The fact that they sat around a table and decided that this situation called for a QB draw, of all plays, and then went out and actually practiced it every Friday - is a firable offense. I don't care if they had umpires and introduced obstacles like divots and banana peels to test variance.
Good thought, but the 49ers defense had three players outside the numbers on both sides of the field, and two deep safeties in the middle. They were not going to allow anyone to get out of bounds.
For what the Cowboys were trying to accomplish, I don't think it was a bad idea. It was poorly executed. Dak ran too far and didn't give the ball to the umpire, if he gets down faster they almost certainly are able to spike the ball for one last play.