Combining PFF and ESPN grades, the Giants OL rated 27th in Pass Protection in 2021. Overall score of 18.
Giants tied with the Titans (#1 seed in AFC) and above the Bengals (another AFC playoff team).
Dolphins seemed to have a historically bad OL given these numbers.
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+1
Maybe they'd be better with a better quarterback.
Now, poor Danny Jones is a victim of his receivers! Hey, the best receiver Dave Brown ever threw to was a washed up Mike Sherrard, but no one ever made that argument for him.
Well it is correct that no WR ever had the same success that they did under Eli.
I freely admit that Jones may suck, odds are that he does, since what are the odds that QB is the one position Gettleman got right? But with that said, when none of anything around him worked out, what are we expecting out of Jones in 2021?
It’s the same argument when Eli couldn’t drag the carcass of Will Tye and Reuben Randle to the playoffs.
Furthermore, re: Dave Brown, he had three full seasons as starter in 1994, 1995, and 1996, and if I’m not mistaken, he still was on the roster in 1997 when he started 6 games before getting injured and relinquishing the job to Danny Kanell. It’s not like we wanted to dump him after 95.
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For years, I had people telling me here that the excellent Giants receivers of the SB teams weren't really all that great, that Eli made them what they were.
Now, poor Danny Jones is a victim of his receivers! Hey, the best receiver Dave Brown ever threw to was a washed up Mike Sherrard, but no one ever made that argument for him.
Well it is correct that no WR ever had the same success that they did under Eli.
I freely admit that Jones may suck, odds are that he does, since what are the odds that QB is the one position Gettleman got right? But with that said, when none of anything around him worked out, what are we expecting out of Jones in 2021?
It’s the same argument when Eli couldn’t drag the carcass of Will Tye and Reuben Randle to the playoffs.
Furthermore, re: Dave Brown, he had three full seasons as starter in 1994, 1995, and 1996, and if I’m not mistaken, he still was on the roster in 1997 when he started 6 games before getting injured and relinquishing the job to Danny Kanell. It’s not like we wanted to dump him after 95.
To be fair, the Saints in the 70s got the QB right and literally nothing else.
Hopefully, we can rebuild the OL to some degree, we get some health out of the WRs, and if Jones looks better under New Coach, you can at least argue that he deserves more time.
Swapping out Jones for Matt Corral/Kenny Pickett won’t work unless you fix what is around whoever the quarterback is.
Furthermore, re: Dave Brown, he had three full seasons as starter in 1994, 1995, and 1996, and if I’m not mistaken, he still was on the roster in 1997 when he started 6 games before getting injured and relinquishing the job to Danny Kanell. It’s not like we wanted to dump him after 95.
George Young LOVED Dave Brown.
I found the linked story from the Baltimore Sun discussing the QB situation Jim Fassel inherited when he took over.
Reeves made it obvious he didn't think Brown could play. Young was -- and still is -- a Brown booster.
"All the things that are being said now about Dave Brown were being said about Phil Simms early in his career," Young said.
Sound familiar?
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Furthermore, re: Dave Brown, he had three full seasons as starter in 1994, 1995, and 1996, and if I’m not mistaken, he still was on the roster in 1997 when he started 6 games before getting injured and relinquishing the job to Danny Kanell. It’s not like we wanted to dump him after 95.
George Young LOVED Dave Brown.
I found the linked story from the Baltimore Sun discussing the QB situation Jim Fassel inherited when he took over.
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Brown has been the most controversial player on the Giants team the past two years. He not only didn't play well, but was a focal point of the rift between coach Dan Reeves and general manager George Young.
Reeves made it obvious he didn't think Brown could play. Young was -- and still is -- a Brown booster.
"All the things that are being said now about Dave Brown were being said about Phil Simms early in his career," Young said.
Sound familiar? Link - ( New Window )
Of course. With that said, the guy who drafted Jones is gone. If next GM says Jones can’t be on this roster, I’m fine with that.
But if he does say that he believes in Jones as the number 1 guy, this website is going to explode with assertions that Mara hired New GM simply because he said he’d work with Jones.
maybe thomas not allowing 100 sacks is keeping us from rock bottom?
ESPN has it right. Pittsburgh's OL was putrid this year.
yep...
Jones might suck, but neither the OL nor the skill players nor the playbook is NFL caliber either.
The new front office has a metric shit ton to address and limited cap space with which to do it. This might be the most important draft in NYG history since like 2004.
+1. Especially after the failed free agent frenzy of last season. Golladay looks like a total disaster
not even the worst this season.
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rebuilding that line in one year.
yep...
My draft wish from last year was:
1. Micah Parsons
2. Creed Humphrey
Not saying I am a GM but this would be nice right now on NYG
Hopefully, we can rebuild the OL to some degree, we get some health out of the WRs, and if Jones looks better under New Coach, you can at least argue that he deserves more time.
Swapping out Jones for Matt Corral/Kenny Pickett won’t work unless you fix what is around whoever the quarterback is.
you need a gun to your head to tell you that?
I believe he refused to play guard for us. He still thought he was a LT. I believe it also took him a while before he became a decent guard, so I wouldn't feel bad about losing him.
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But if you had a gun to your head, you’d have to lean towards No on Jones. For me, next year is another shit show waiting to happen.
Hopefully, we can rebuild the OL to some degree, we get some health out of the WRs, and if Jones looks better under New Coach, you can at least argue that he deserves more time.
Swapping out Jones for Matt Corral/Kenny Pickett won’t work unless you fix what is around whoever the quarterback is.
you need a gun to your head to tell you that?
No. But I’m saying if you give me the choice:
A) Jones returns, we fix the OL to acceptable
B) We draft Corral/Pickett, and don’t address the OL.
I’m picking A. A works even if Jones isn’t the long term guy. B is just changing the lead violin player on the Titanic.
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seeing WFT at #4 with Flowers at Guard.. ugh.
I believe he refused to play guard for us. He still thought he was a LT. I believe it also took him a while before he became a decent guard, so I wouldn't feel bad about losing him.
I hear people say this but I doubt it's true. He was drafted as T and after Beatty got hurt and before we signed Solder he was our best option at LT. I'm talking 2015-2017. By 2018 when we signed Solder we had drafter Hernandez for one G and signed Omameh for the other G so RT it was. Plus I think Gettleman wanted him gone as did most of the fan base.
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In comment 15559415 PetesHereNow said:
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But if you had a gun to your head, you’d have to lean towards No on Jones. For me, next year is another shit show waiting to happen.
Hopefully, we can rebuild the OL to some degree, we get some health out of the WRs, and if Jones looks better under New Coach, you can at least argue that he deserves more time.
Swapping out Jones for Matt Corral/Kenny Pickett won’t work unless you fix what is around whoever the quarterback is.
you need a gun to your head to tell you that?
No. But I’m saying if you give me the choice:
A) Jones returns, we fix the OL to acceptable
B) We draft Corral/Pickett, and don’t address the OL.
I’m picking A. A works even if Jones isn’t the long term guy. B is just changing the lead violin player on the Titanic.
The problem is the QB has influence over how successful the line is. And if you never have a good QB, your line will always look dreadful. And what if Pickett or Corral are actually studs in the NFL.
Hmmm...generally recall the point being made was the NY Giants were moreso middle of pack on allowing pressures on passing plays. See attached link on Advanced Stats as Giants indeed Rank 15th in the league at 23.1% in Pressures % Allowed.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm
But continue to exaggerate for effect as you see fit...
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In comment 15559482 Producer said:
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In comment 15559415 PetesHereNow said:
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But if you had a gun to your head, you’d have to lean towards No on Jones. For me, next year is another shit show waiting to happen.
Hopefully, we can rebuild the OL to some degree, we get some health out of the WRs, and if Jones looks better under New Coach, you can at least argue that he deserves more time.
Swapping out Jones for Matt Corral/Kenny Pickett won’t work unless you fix what is around whoever the quarterback is.
you need a gun to your head to tell you that?
No. But I’m saying if you give me the choice:
A) Jones returns, we fix the OL to acceptable
B) We draft Corral/Pickett, and don’t address the OL.
I’m picking A. A works even if Jones isn’t the long term guy. B is just changing the lead violin player on the Titanic.
The problem is the QB has influence over how successful the line is. And if you never have a good QB, your line will always look dreadful. And what if Pickett or Corral are actually studs in the NFL.
If Pickett or Corral are studs in the NFL, then it would be a surprise to every draft evaluator in the business.
However, I think you’re overstating the effect a good QB has on his OL. If that was the case, why did Mahomes look like dogshit in the Super Bowl vs. Tampa?
Because one game is not necessarily indicative of any player's overall worth.
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In comment 15559482 Producer said:
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In comment 15559415 PetesHereNow said:
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But if you had a gun to your head, you’d have to lean towards No on Jones. For me, next year is another shit show waiting to happen.
Hopefully, we can rebuild the OL to some degree, we get some health out of the WRs, and if Jones looks better under New Coach, you can at least argue that he deserves more time.
Swapping out Jones for Matt Corral/Kenny Pickett won’t work unless you fix what is around whoever the quarterback is.
you need a gun to your head to tell you that?
No. But I’m saying if you give me the choice:
A) Jones returns, we fix the OL to acceptable
B) We draft Corral/Pickett, and don’t address the OL.
I’m picking A. A works even if Jones isn’t the long term guy. B is just changing the lead violin player on the Titanic.
The problem is the QB has influence over how successful the line is. And if you never have a good QB, your line will always look dreadful. And what if Pickett or Corral are actually studs in the NFL.
The problem is the OL has influence how successful the QB is.
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However, I think you’re overstating the effect a good QB has on his OL. If that was the case, why did Mahomes look like dogshit in the Super Bowl vs. Tampa?
Because one game is not necessarily indicative of any player's overall worth.
In other words show you data that the one game is indicative of what can happen to a super football team and you choose to pretend like it never happened?
Your eyes are correct. What's happening on this thread is that you have the OP posted a portion of OL responsibility and you have moronic posters thinking it means everything so they can bash Jones.
Because one game is not necessarily indicative of any player's overall worth.
In other words show you data that the one game is indicative of what can happen to a super football team and you choose to pretend like it never happened?
Showing that something happened once doesn't disprove the idea that good QBs can make OLs better.
I can find one game to prove almost anything.
Green Bay, Kansas City, Tampa should never spend money or draft picks on the OL since they have the HOF best QBs?
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Because one game is not necessarily indicative of any player's overall worth.
In other words show you data that the one game is indicative of what can happen to a super football team and you choose to pretend like it never happened?
Showing that something happened once doesn't disprove the idea that good QBs can make OLs better.
I can find one game to prove almost anything.
I'll rephrase: I agree good QB's can make OL's better. I'm also saying that good OL's can make QB's look better too. Agree?
I'm also saying bad OL's can make a good QB look bad. Agree?
The point is, this isn't either/or issue about OL's and a QB . Agree?
Well, clearly you didn't watch Seattle in 2018 and 2019.
This year, Seattle (again), Chicago, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and Atlanta were just as bad as NYG. If not worse.
I don't think we were close to being as bad as Chicago and Carolina. Those OLs should have been wearing handicap stickers.
Green Bay, Kansas City, Tampa should never spend money or draft picks on the OL since they have the HOF best QBs?
Congrats, you won the argument against a point nobody was making.
Factor in:
Scheme
In game coaching decisions
WR play
TE play
RB performance
This is why Eli, McCoy, Glennon, Fromm, and Jones looked like complete shit.
That and the horrific OLine play...
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Why would any team with a good QB ever spend money/draft picks on the OL?
Green Bay, Kansas City, Tampa should never spend money or draft picks on the OL since they have the HOF best QBs?
Congrats, you won the argument against a point nobody was making.
Not true. Hes bene spot on. He first started posting after Greg from LI made the below sarcastic quote.
That's the context Pete has been replying to. Greg and possibly others seem to be downplaying how awful this OL.
===========================
"I was told that the Giants OL is so singularly awful that a quarterback simply can't be evaluated."
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In the 52 years I have been following NFL football, I have never seen a team's OL perform as consistently awful as the 2021 Giants OL.
Well, clearly you didn't watch Seattle in 2018 and 2019.
This year, Seattle (again), Chicago, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and Atlanta were just as bad as NYG. If not worse.
I don't think we were close to being as bad as Chicago and Carolina. Those OLs should have been wearing handicap stickers.
PFF has had Giants overall rated 31 in 2020 and 30 in 2021. I think that 2 year run is pretty telling that this OL has ben God-awful regardless to if it is worst ever or near it. Being that bad for 2 straight years screams "pathetic."
Factor in:
Scheme
In game coaching decisions
WR play
TE play
RB performance
This is why Eli, McCoy, Glennon, Fromm, and Jones looked like complete shit.
That and the horrific OLine play...
+1.
I have ben saying for a while now there are a few posters on here who think the NFL is a one player sport.
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Our shit OLine wasn't dead last in pass blocking so every Jones crybaby comes out to try to prove a retarded point.
Factor in:
Scheme
In game coaching decisions
WR play
TE play
RB performance
This is why Eli, McCoy, Glennon, Fromm, and Jones looked like complete shit.
That and the horrific OLine play...
+1.
I have ben saying for a while now there are a few posters on here who think the NFL is a one player sport.
Football isn’t a one player sport. But it would be nice to put some of those players worthy of playing this sport on our Offense at some point.
I’ll take Thomas...who else you gonna’ give me?
Well, clearly you didn't watch Seattle in 2018 and 2019.
This year, Seattle (again), Chicago, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and Atlanta were just as bad as NYG. If not worse.
I don't think we were close to being as bad as Chicago and Carolina. Those OLs should have been wearing handicap stickers.
PFF has had Giants overall rated 31 in 2020 and 30 in 2021. I think that 2 year run is pretty telling that this OL has ben God-awful regardless to if it is worst ever or near it. Being that bad for 2 straight years screams "pathetic."
I don't mind saying our OL is poor. I've campaigned loudly to find different solutions. But I don't like the way it's used as an excuse for the poor play of the skills players.
It's convenient and it's lazy.
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In comment 15560211 bw in dc said:
Well, clearly you didn't watch Seattle in 2018 and 2019.
This year, Seattle (again), Chicago, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and Atlanta were just as bad as NYG. If not worse.
I don't think we were close to being as bad as Chicago and Carolina. Those OLs should have been wearing handicap stickers.
PFF has had Giants overall rated 31 in 2020 and 30 in 2021. I think that 2 year run is pretty telling that this OL has ben God-awful regardless to if it is worst ever or near it. Being that bad for 2 straight years screams "pathetic."
I don't mind saying our OL is poor. I've campaigned loudly to find different solutions. But I don't like the way it's used as an excuse for the poor play of the skills players.
It's convenient and it's lazy.
Actually it's not an excuse though.
IMO it's the other way. Posters tend to continually downplay how awful this OL is and continually want to avoid it for the more flashier skill player positions.
IMO most fair-minded posters would agree that over the last 2 years the Giants have had the worst OL in all of football combining both years.
It's pretty silly to read sometimes on here that posters are looking to give the OL an excuse by what "worst overall" means.
You and I both wanted Slater for a reason.
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In comment 15560311 Thunderstruck27 said:
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Our shit OLine wasn't dead last in pass blocking so every Jones crybaby comes out to try to prove a retarded point.
Factor in:
Scheme
In game coaching decisions
WR play
TE play
RB performance
This is why Eli, McCoy, Glennon, Fromm, and Jones looked like complete shit.
That and the horrific OLine play...
+1.
I have ben saying for a while now there are a few posters on here who think the NFL is a one player sport.
Football isn’t a one player sport. But it would be nice to put some of those players worthy of playing this sport on our Offense at some point.
I’ll take Thomas...who else you gonna’ give me?
I agree with your tone.
SO who do you think is the worst overall position spots? I'd say OL overall is worst. Then Tight End is 2nd worst. Agree?
Also, it is interesting as I watch several Ravens games, I'm not thinking of their OL as 'average'. Both of their tackles are tragic, and Mekari in the middle is mediocre at best.
Also, it is interesting as I watch several Ravens games, I'm not thinking of their OL as 'average'. Both of their tackles are tragic, and Mekari in the middle is mediocre at best.
Check that, Ben Powers. Mekari, before this year, was a backup guard.
Maybe Jones is shit.
No plays are designed to help alleviate pressure or put the offense in a place to succeed. Every run play Saquon is 9 yards deep at the snap. No quick hitting routes.
All lead to 3rd and long. Basically wipes out screen passes. When they are run the option of using Rudolph on the screen instead of Engram makes no sense.
A good offensive coordinator, some linemen back healthy, a number 1 lineman picked, and we can see what the offense is truly missing.
Can you really judge an offense’s players when the coach is running this conservative, QBs sneak in 3rd and 9 offense.
Basically, a year a way from knowing what is wrong with the offense
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In comment 15560311 Thunderstruck27 said:
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Our shit OLine wasn't dead last in pass blocking so every Jones crybaby comes out to try to prove a retarded point.
Factor in:
Scheme
In game coaching decisions
WR play
TE play
RB performance
This is why Eli, McCoy, Glennon, Fromm, and Jones looked like complete shit.
That and the horrific OLine play...
+1.
I have ben saying for a while now there are a few posters on here who think the NFL is a one player sport.
Football isn’t a one player sport. But it would be nice to put some of those players worthy of playing this sport on our Offense at some point.
I’ll take Thomas...who else you gonna’ give me?
Honestly? That's all you are gonna get. That and Jones at the end of a rookie contract. Toney looked good in the 2 minutes he was on the field
Ridiculous.
The offensive players suck too.
Stop trying to make the offensive players not accountable too.
You have RB;s that can see holes.
You have Wr's always hurt.
You have pathetic Tight Edns
And an Lo made up of primarily backups
And yet you can't understand that overall this talent sucks too?
Football isn’t a one player sport. But it would be nice to put some of those players worthy of playing this sport on our Offense at some point.
I’ll take Thomas...who else you gonna’ give me?
I agree with your tone.
SO who do you think is the worst overall position spots? I'd say OL overall is worst. Then Tight End is 2nd worst. Agree?
Giantstock - Putting aside any view that a team should draft for positions versus players, this is probably my ranking of the Giants positional units, from worst to first (ignoring QB):
OL
OLB/Edge
TE
RB
WR
MLB
DT
S
CB
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Football isn’t a one player sport. But it would be nice to put some of those players worthy of playing this sport on our Offense at some point.
I’ll take Thomas...who else you gonna’ give me?
I agree with your tone.
SO who do you think is the worst overall position spots? I'd say OL overall is worst. Then Tight End is 2nd worst. Agree?
Giantstock - Putting aside any view that a team should draft for positions versus players, this is probably my ranking of the Giants positional units, from worst to first (ignoring QB):
OL
OLB/Edge
TE
RB
WR
MLB
DT
S
CB
Fair assessment. I'd squeeze QB in right after MLB
Barkley, Gates, Jones, Golladay, Shep, Toney — I’m not saying any of this group is definitely the future but injuries are the big elephant in the room with this offense too, along with the shit show that is the offensive line
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In comment 15560365 giantstock said:
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Football isn’t a one player sport. But it would be nice to put some of those players worthy of playing this sport on our Offense at some point.
I’ll take Thomas...who else you gonna’ give me?
I agree with your tone.
SO who do you think is the worst overall position spots? I'd say OL overall is worst. Then Tight End is 2nd worst. Agree?
Giantstock - Putting aside any view that a team should draft for positions versus players, this is probably my ranking of the Giants positional units, from worst to first (ignoring QB):
OL
OLB/Edge
TE
RB
WR
MLB
DT
S
CB
Fair assessment. I'd squeeze QB in right after MLB
Are you joking?