Does anyone else have a feeling this guy will end up moving into a backup role after next year (with another team) and at some point down the road become a good QB?
I get like a Rich Gannon vibe from him that he will be one of these late bloomers that puts up some good seasons late in his career. Just based on size, his running ability, solid deep ball accuracy, etc.
Don’t get me wrong, I think next season is his last in NY.
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In comment 15561951 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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because if you get him an OL, he is good enough to take us out of the running for Young/Stroud.
If we're in the running for Young/Stroud weed better be drafting Will Anderson.
That's the flaw in the "wait for 2023 for the QB" logic. Why is it ok to force QB in 2023 but not 2022?
Because there are QB's in the 2023 Draft who look like longterm answers at the position and can start immediately as a rookie whereas there isn't one in the 2022 Draft
What QBs are those?
Jones's arm isn't the problem. He has good physical attributes, but doesn't see the field well and is abjectly awful at anticipating the pass rush. About the only similarity between the 2 is that they both could run.
I can see DJ having a solid career as a backup, but I do not see him having a late career resurgence like Gannon.
Because there are QB's in the 2023 Draft who look like longterm answers at the position and can start immediately as a rookie whereas there isn't one in the 2022 Draft
I don't see this bumper crop in 2023. Maybe Stroud. Maybe McCall (who I find very interesting).
I don't find anything super-special about Young. Nice player for sure. But he's not this Andrew Luck-type stud.
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eric I've wondered too if a different place he pulls a Gannon.
Are you suggesting we should keep him on the team for 8 years in the hopes that by 2030 he'll be able to make a run at a Super Bowl?
Where the hell did you get that idea from? Where did that get implied anywhere in my sentence? I leave QB decisions to those that know better than me. That's been my stance right along. Again to clarify this place will go nuts if the GM and HC of their choice wants to keep him. And the thought has crossed my mind in a different place with a different offense he may pull a Gannon. Do I think he will? I don't try to talk in absolutes like so many do. So I don't know. No where does it say I think we should keep him for 8 years in hopes we make a playoff run in 2030.
Any QB that is compared to Tannehill should be avoided. It's just another way of saying you don't think the player is that good.
DU is injured often and can’t get through progressions fast enough even when he does have time but his conservative approach was likely more Judge than him. Judge had his coordinators and players playing very conservative. While he likely would never have been the guy, the last coaching staff did him no favors.
What do you think the chances of Jones becoming a top ten QB are? I'd personally say <10%. I think he's a high-end back-up/low-end starter. Somewhere in the 20-40 range.
I don't care if he starts next year, though.
I think the dreamland comp for Jones is Cam Newton. Big, strong, fast, very limited passer who is dangerous running the ball. The problem is Jones lacks Newton's instincts as a ball carrier.
Probably the only element Jones matches Cam in is foot speed. He isn't 1/1,000,000th the runner Cam was, and isn't as good a passer either. Jones is a better touch passer, maybe, but doesn't have Cam's arm. Cam was durable too, although that probably led to his relatively short career.
And I'm tired of hearing about Jones's rookie year. He dealt with a bad OL then and a mediocre WR corps, so why was he able to produce then and not now? It is more than Pat Shurmur. Shurmur is a good offensive coach, but it's not like he's the 2nd coming of Bill Walsh.
The reality is that Jones's rookie numbers were inflated by very good games against some very bad defenses. Expecting him to do that is the very definition of insanity. He's shown us what he is - a hard worker, a good teammate off the field, but a liability on it. Slow to process, and is prone to panic once his protection breaks down. It's not like this is new, it's who he was in college.
As someone said, there is no shame in not being able to play QB at NFL speed, it is a really fucking hard job. Only a handful of humans can do it well. Unfortunately, Daniel isn't one of them.
So to those who don't want to "start over" at QB, what are the options if DJ is given a 4th scholarship year and still fails? Will it be more "his OL sucks!" and "his WR's suck!" and "his OC sucks!"? AT some point he has to produce.
You can make all the excuses in the world for him. But the bottom line is that he's failed to perform going all the way back through his college years.
I'm sure he's a nice guy and works hard. And I know people want him to see him succeed. But the results simply aren't there and you can't keep waiting for it.
I don't see this bumper crop in 2023. Maybe Stroud. Maybe McCall (who I find very interesting).
I don't find anything super-special about Young. Nice player for sure. But he's not this Andrew Luck-type stud.
I agree with you on Young. I'm not closing the book on him, as he has some incredible athletic talents and is only a freshman, but I was far more impressed by Stroud. He has such a fluid release, the ball just jumps out of his hand. I get the hesitancy with OSU QB's, but neither Haskins nor Fields looked like Stroud to me.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
I agree. These are his weaknesses. Yet he's supposed to have above average intelligence. You wouldn't think, after two full years, he's still having issues with pre snap reads and reading defenses.
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Is pre snap reads, reading a defense, and moving within the pocket.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
I agree. These are his weaknesses. Yet he's supposed to have above average intelligence. You wouldn't think, after two full years, he's still having issues with pre snap reads and reading defenses.
It’s his awareness that’s the biggest issue in my opinion. It’s been a problem since day one. Mainly not anticipating the rush which led to a lot of fumbles. Awareness is more instinctual than it is about intelligence. I’m not sure that you can really teach a person to be more instinctual.
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Is pre snap reads, reading a defense, and moving within the pocket.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
I agree. These are his weaknesses. Yet he's supposed to have above average intelligence. You wouldn't think, after two full years, he's still having issues with pre snap reads and reading defenses.
I don't think pre-snap reads are his issue, it is when the coverage isn't what he thought it would be that gives him trouble. Orlovsky said this before the draft, that DJ really struggles with post-snap adjustments, and it hasn't gotten better.
This is one of those things that more film on a QB exposes, and why Jones will not be able to replicate any rookie success he had until he fixes this. The book is out on him, pressure from the edges (he never steps up in the pocket), and confuse him with coverages. It's not about intelligence as much as it is about processing quickly.
Lawrence was also can't miss this past draft and while the jury is still out on him, just a putrid rookie year.
In sum, a lot changes in college. These guys get hurt, get exposed, falter to the constant pressure, etc. Just saying "2023 looks better, draft a QB then" is just throwing shit at the wall. If we like a guy now at 5 or 7 or a tradeback, pick him and go get to work on what will hopefully be a better era of Giants football.
That's just not true.
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He played punter his freshman year at Delaware and was drafted with the intent of being converted to running back. Gannon ended up being a really smart QB with great feet who was perfect for a West Coast offense. Jones doesn't have those traits.
I think the dreamland comp for Jones is Cam Newton. Big, strong, fast, very limited passer who is dangerous running the ball. The problem is Jones lacks Newton's instincts as a ball carrier.
Probably the only element Jones matches Cam in is foot speed. He isn't 1/1,000,000th the runner Cam was, and isn't as good a passer either. Jones is a better touch passer, maybe, but doesn't have Cam's arm. Cam was durable too, although that probably led to his relatively short career.
And I'm tired of hearing about Jones's rookie year. He dealt with a bad OL then and a mediocre WR corps, so why was he able to produce then and not now? It is more than Pat Shurmur. Shurmur is a good offensive coach, but it's not like he's the 2nd coming of Bill Walsh.
The reality is that Jones's rookie numbers were inflated by very good games against some very bad defenses. Expecting him to do that is the very definition of insanity. He's shown us what he is - a hard worker, a good teammate off the field, but a liability on it. Slow to process, and is prone to panic once his protection breaks down. It's not like this is new, it's who he was in college.
As someone said, there is no shame in not being able to play QB at NFL speed, it is a really fucking hard job. Only a handful of humans can do it well. Unfortunately, Daniel isn't one of them.
So to those who don't want to "start over" at QB, what are the options if DJ is given a 4th scholarship year and still fails? Will it be more "his OL sucks!" and "his WR's suck!" and "his OC sucks!"? AT some point he has to produce.
I can already see the "he needs more time to learn another new system" posts.
I was thinking it's kind of funny how after he was drafted, one of the talking points was how polished and pro ready he was. Don't hear that mentioned much anymore...
What if he's beat out in camp by someone? I'm all for playing him if he earns it but to not seriously consider upgrading the QB position with another player in 2022 would be mind blowing to me.
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with an improved line and healthy weapons, and if he does not - he should be replaced and moved on from.
What if he's beat out in camp by someone? I'm all for playing him if he earns it but to not seriously consider upgrading the QB position with another player in 2022 would be mind blowing to me.
This is where I'm at too. If new management is going to give Jones another shot, that's fine, but bring in a good vet to compete with him, and if that vet beats him out, so be it.
There it is...as the door slowly cracks open on Daniel Jones and some on BBI move into their "wait and see" modes.
Ultimatums and NFL QBs aren't typically a good strategy...
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It’s not going to happen in year 12 or even year 17.
That's just not true.
How is it not? He was mediocre in high school, hence having to walk on at football powerhouse Duke. Was mediocre in college. Has been nothing but mediocre in the NFL
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because if you get him an OL, he is good enough to take us out of the running for Young/Stroud.
If we're in the running for Young/Stroud weed better be drafting Will Anderson.
That's the flaw in the "wait for 2023 for the QB" logic. Why is it ok to force QB in 2023 but not 2022?
I've always said if they see the guy this year go ahead and take him, that's fine. I dont see that guy personally. I look at players like Pickett and Corral and dont think either are better than Jones. I do see it in Young and Stroud.
How will they replace him after the season starts?
Bring in a vet and the best man wins the job.
I just don't see the point in 3 games turning around your opinion when you've had 37 total starts to form an opinion.
He's dead, Jim. Call it.
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In comment 15561951 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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because if you get him an OL, he is good enough to take us out of the running for Young/Stroud.
If we're in the running for Young/Stroud weed better be drafting Will Anderson.
That's the flaw in the "wait for 2023 for the QB" logic. Why is it ok to force QB in 2023 but not 2022?
I've always said if they see the guy this year go ahead and take him, that's fine. I dont see that guy personally. I look at players like Pickett and Corral and dont think either are better than Jones. I do see it in Young and Stroud.
I don't see it in either, particularly Young.
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In comment 15562025 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15561951 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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because if you get him an OL, he is good enough to take us out of the running for Young/Stroud.
If we're in the running for Young/Stroud weed better be drafting Will Anderson.
That's the flaw in the "wait for 2023 for the QB" logic. Why is it ok to force QB in 2023 but not 2022?
Because there are QB's in the 2023 Draft who look like longterm answers at the position and can start immediately as a rookie whereas there isn't one in the 2022 Draft
What QBs are those?
I have seen stuff from Young or Stroud that would make them the QB1 if they were in the 2022 Draft. On the next tier, Jake Haener, Phil Jurkovec, and Grayson McCall are intriguing as QB's who could see their stock rise next year.
I don't see it in either, particularly Young.
I mean that's cool. You like pickett and Corral. I like Young and Stroud (More Young). Lets see it play out.
The difference is Young knows his size limitations and has adjusted his game accordingly. Corral plays like he thinks he is Josh Allen and takes a lot of unnecessary hits which cause him to be an injury risk since he is not 6'6" 245.
Its a valid concern, Young's not really a runner though, more of a guy that tries to buy time in the pocket. But he's on the smaller side. I love his decision making and accuracy though.
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If people are worried about Corral's body type, I'd expect that concern to be greater with Young.
The difference is Young knows his size limitations and has adjusted his game accordingly. Corral plays like he thinks he is Josh Allen and takes a lot of unnecessary hits which cause him to be an injury risk since he is not 6'6" 245.
How much of that was Kiffin though? Corral didn’t run 20 times a game on his own.
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In comment 15562370 Go Terps said:
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If people are worried about Corral's body type, I'd expect that concern to be greater with Young.
The difference is Young knows his size limitations and has adjusted his game accordingly. Corral plays like he thinks he is Josh Allen and takes a lot of unnecessary hits which cause him to be an injury risk since he is not 6'6" 245.
How much of that was Kiffin though? Corral didn’t run 20 times a game on his own.
The passing offense was bascially single read read option. If the pass was not there take off and run. That really does not work in the NFL and whomever drafts him needs an OC and QB coach who can change the outlook. They also better be prepared NOT to start him Week 1.
You can make all the excuses in the world for him. But the bottom line is that he's failed to perform going all the way back through his college years.
I'm sure he's a nice guy and works hard. And I know people want him to see him succeed. But the results simply aren't there and you can't keep waiting for it.
But I think you are burying the lede, in fact. He does not possess all the tools and physical attributes. Jones' arm is lacking, and his passing is routinely a problem. People keep repeating, like a mantra, that Jones is very accurate. In fact, the opposite is true. Jones is very inaccurate, and the stats consistently tell us this. But because he sometimes throws a pretty deep ball, around here he gets credit for being accurate. It's wild.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
Yes we know these are the common things Giants fans like to parrot, over and over (and over and over) again. But nobody really knows. We'll see.
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Is pre snap reads, reading a defense, and moving within the pocket.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
Yes we know these are the common things Giants fans like to parrot, over and over (and over and over) again. But nobody really knows. We'll see.
This is so true. I read over and over again, he can't read defenses, one read guy but no one here watches all 22 film. The one guy that does is Sy and he has given Jones good grades for the most part.
We do know what Jones is. There's plenty of evidence. We also know that keeping him is about to get more expensive.
I promise you one thing: Jones has 37 starts in the NFL -he won't get another 37.
Basically he's been told for the last six years to go out there and run for your life, and maybe try and win a few games while you're at it. A decent supporting cast at some point in his career would be nice.
Basically he's been told for the last six years to go out there and run for your life, and maybe try and win a few games while you're at it. A decent supporting cast at some point in his career would be nice.
Or maybe the supporting cast isn’t the only problem.
There’s a close to zero percent chance Jones will ever be a top 15 QB in the league for an entire season worth of games.
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In comment 15561836 GNewGiants said:
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Is pre snap reads, reading a defense, and moving within the pocket.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
Yes we know these are the common things Giants fans like to parrot, over and over (and over and over) again. But nobody really knows. We'll see.
This is so true. I read over and over again, he can't read defenses, one read guy but no one here watches all 22 film. The one guy that does is Sy and he has given Jones good grades for the most part.
Agree. Alot of it is chanting from people that don't actually know, and have already made up their minds. And I don't know either, so there is that. I'm not an expert, nor do i pretend to be. I do watch the all 22 brerakdowns when they are available, and listen to podcasts that break down film.
One thing that stands out was that it was not pre snap read, that was fine- tho more difficult to assess in NYG offense due to lack of motion and static personell groups.
The problem this year was going too fast. The process was sped up. He was supposedly speeding up his drops or cutting them short to try to get the ball out faster, and also going through reads too fast. Sometimes he did not get to 2nd and 3 rd reads. Most of this was due to lack of confidence in protection, particularly noticable when AT was out. And that manifests itself badly even when there is adequete protection, because the timing is all fucked up in his head. You wanna say out of sorts, or shell shocked or whatever, that is reasonable.
The pocket movement was greatly improved this year as was manipulating defense with his eye (looking off) for anyone that watched. These are all things that improve with experience and work. That is not to say he would get to whatever level is nec. These are not my opinions, but the opinions of the QB "experts" on podcasts i like (Talkin' Giants, big blue banter, Blue rush among others) They are all archived.
It's not particularly relevant, unless you are actually interested in facts or opinions that don't support your view. The new regime will make its own judgement, and most likely will want to start over at some point. And that's fine.
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In comment 15561836 GNewGiants said:
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Is pre snap reads, reading a defense, and moving within the pocket.
Those things just don’t come to you. He hasn’t gotten better in any of those areas in 3 years and is always hurt. He’s a great teammate, works hard. But he’s like an AOL dial up modem playing in 2022.
Yes we know these are the common things Giants fans like to parrot, over and over (and over and over) again. But nobody really knows. We'll see.
This is so true. I read over and over again, he can't read defenses, one read guy but no one here watches all 22 film. The one guy that does is Sy and he has given Jones good grades for the most part.
I watch all-22 after most games (if I have the time). You get it with the NFL package. I've seen enough to know that Jones has a tendency to lock on to one guy, especially in shorter route combos. And you don't need all-22 to see how he reacts to a pass rush.
That being said, I won't argue that Jones does not "bird-dog" targets, like all young qbs do. Maybe more or maybe less. I don't know. I saw improvement in that area. Again, not claiming it is or ever will be good enough.
My NFL game pass didn't have the all 22 this year, I had to rely on skinners breakdown. he got the all 22 from industry contacts. did they eventually fix that? I stopped checking after the season was lost.
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would be a change of scenery. Maybe sit for a year or two to clear his head, get a different perspective of the game. He has talent enough to succeed at some level. He'll never be top tier but he could work himself into the 10-15 range under the right circumstances.
Basically he's been told for the last six years to go out there and run for your life, and maybe try and win a few games while you're at it. A decent supporting cast at some point in his career would be nice.
Or maybe the supporting cast isn’t the only problem.
There’s a close to zero percent chance Jones will ever be a top 15 QB in the league for an entire season worth of games.
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In comment 15562264 ajr2456 said:
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It’s not going to happen in year 12 or even year 17.
That's just not true.
How is it not? He was mediocre in high school, hence having to walk on at football powerhouse Duke. Was mediocre in college. Has been nothing but mediocre in the NFL
During his high school career, he had 6,997 passing yards and 98 touchdowns.
He missed the football camps with a broken throwing arm after his junior year, thus he was basically an unknown for recruiting purposes.
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In comment 15562310 MOOPS said:
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In comment 15562264 ajr2456 said:
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It’s not going to happen in year 12 or even year 17.
That's just not true.
How is it not? He was mediocre in high school, hence having to walk on at football powerhouse Duke. Was mediocre in college. Has been nothing but mediocre in the NFL
During his high school career, he had 6,997 passing yards and 98 touchdowns.
He missed the football camps with a broken throwing arm after his junior year, thus he was basically an unknown for recruiting purposes.
When you argue with a fool be sure he isn't similarly occupied.
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In comment 15562334 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15562310 MOOPS said:
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In comment 15562264 ajr2456 said:
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It’s not going to happen in year 12 or even year 17.
That's just not true.
How is it not? He was mediocre in high school, hence having to walk on at football powerhouse Duke. Was mediocre in college. Has been nothing but mediocre in the NFL
During his high school career, he had 6,997 passing yards and 98 touchdowns.
He missed the football camps with a broken throwing arm after his junior year, thus he was basically an unknown for recruiting purposes.
When you argue with a fool be sure he isn't similarly occupied.
I feel like you think that's a really thoughtful quote. But it might be a warning for the threads you've been all of a sudden active on.