Opinions vary on these players, but these significant and potentially career-altering injuries are really going to complicate matters moving forward.
Daniel Jones. Like him or not, we still really don't know the severity of his neck injury. Is his career at risk?
Saquon Barkley. 2021 was an important year for him and he did not dispel lingering doubts that the serious knee injuries he suffered in 2020 haver permanently impacted his lateral agility and mental toughness. He may never be the same player he was as a rookie.
Nick Gates. This one really pisses me off. Billy Price was terrible at center (that was a bad trade as I predicted). And moving Gates to guard led to him suffering a potentially career-ending injury. He was an up-and-coming player with a lot of grit.
Sterling Shepard. Never lived up to expectations and always hurt. He has two huge contract years left and tore his Achilles in mid-December, casting doubt if he will even be available to play in 2022. But if he wasn't hurt, he'd still figure prominently in the WR corps given the state of the position.
Jabrill Peppers. "Ruptured" his ACL in October. He's also a free agent.
Matt Peart. Good athlete who may lack the physicality to play in the NFL. Least likely of the group to make an impact moving forward, but not impossible that he could become a Will Beatty-type who hung around the league for a few years as a starter. His late-season ACL very much puts 2022 in doubt.
Kadarius Toney. No major injuries. It's just the unbelievable # of ailments that kept him from making an impact. Hamstring, ankle, thumb, quad, oblique, and shoulder in just one season?
Shane Lemieux. I'm much higher on him than most on BBI. I think he may have a bright future. However, he missed all of 2021 with a knee injury and therefor remains a huge question mark moving forward.
Blake Martinez. Best MLB the Giants have had since Antonio Pierce. He probably will return in good shape, but you never know with an ACL.
Rodarius Williams. Promising CB who the coaching staff was really high on. Not a great athlete, he now must recover from an ACL.
Darnay Holmes. Placed on IR in November with a neck injury. Always a little nervous when the neck is involved.
Elerson Smith. Placed on IR in January with neck injury.
However, of that list of names in the OP, only have concerns for Gates and Martinez as to having value AND might not recover well...
Revisionist history by those such as you who simply want to ignore his talent.
He became only the third rookie in NFL history to accrue 2,000 yards from scrimmage and breaking a number of franchise records. He also was voted to the Pro Bowl and named “Associated Press NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year,” “FedEx Ground NFL Player of the Year,” “Pro Football Writers of America Offensive Rookie of the Year,” and “Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Year.” Barkley started all 16 games, rushing 261 times for 1,307 yards (5.0 yards per carry) and 11 touchdowns. He also caught 91 passes for 721 yards and four touchdowns. Overall, Barkley led the NFL with 2,028 yards from scrimmage. Barkley also led the NFL with seven 40+ yard runs and six 50+ yard runs. The latter figure is the highest single-season total by a Giants player since the 1970 merger.
I would bet that the 2 years the Giants had Aaron Wellman as their S&C coach, the injuries went down significantly, and they went up significantly once he left.....Giants need to get that guy back....I am pretty sure that wherever Wellman goes, the injuries go down
I would bet that the 2 years the Giants had Aaron Wellman as their S&C coach, the injuries went down significantly, and they went up significantly once he left.....Giants need to get that guy back....I am pretty sure that wherever Wellman goes, the injuries go down
Don't think you can blame a lot of those injuries on Strength and Conditioning. Anything due to the neck was on the field. Gates was stepped on, Barkley was going to tear his ACL eventually with the way he moves. I mean , a lot of these have just been really bad luck. The good part going forward is all the guys can be replaced in the next few years. It's not like we're losing these super amazing players. I'd say the biggest loss was Martinez.
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Was never a plus player anyway—notice the team record when Barkley was at his best. Barkley’s rookie stats look nice on the surface, dig a little deeper and see they were not all that impressive.
Revisionist history by those such as you who simply want to ignore his talent.
He became only the third rookie in NFL history to accrue 2,000 yards from scrimmage and breaking a number of franchise records. He also was voted to the Pro Bowl and named “Associated Press NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year,” “FedEx Ground NFL Player of the Year,” “Pro Football Writers of America Offensive Rookie of the Year,” and “Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Year.” Barkley started all 16 games, rushing 261 times for 1,307 yards (5.0 yards per carry) and 11 touchdowns. He also caught 91 passes for 721 yards and four touchdowns. Overall, Barkley led the NFL with 2,028 yards from scrimmage. Barkley also led the NFL with seven 40+ yard runs and six 50+ yard runs. The latter figure is the highest single-season total by a Giants player since the 1970 merger.
Pretty numbers. None of it translates into wins. One long run per game and many stalled drives and punts because he did not move the chains consistently.
Some injuries - like Gates/Martinez - you can't do anything about, that was just bad luck.
Some of the other injuries, Toney (there was a lot of stuff goin on there), Shane L., A. Jackson, THomas seems to be eternally nicked up...I'm not so sure there can't be something done to improve those situations with a different strength and conditioning program.
I'm also not entirely buying the idea it takes a player a year to return from an ACL. I'm just not sure if that's true anymore...and what about his ankles - that problem seems to be ongoing. T
Time to thank Ronnie Barnes, and anyone else who's been there for decades and wish them the best of luck in the future, and move on already. No team should be one of the most injured every single year for well over a decade straight.
George Young used to say that someone might not know anything about football, but his/her eyes would automatically be drawn to Lawrence Taylor because he was so much better than anyone on the field.
Saquon Barkley had that kind of presence as a rookie. Your eyes were automatically drawn to him because he operated at a different speed. More importantly, he scared the shit out of the defense.
And what kind of player was Babe Ruth if you took away his home runs?
Lot of these guys will be gone after 2022 season.
Martinez is a guy who will need to take a massive paycut to stick after this season coming off injury, even if he plays well. His lateral speed was already starting to slip a bit last year and he never was the quickest.
It's why drafting a good MLB prospect is key.
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just posted this on the other thread as well -
I would bet that the 2 years the Giants had Aaron Wellman as their S&C coach, the injuries went down significantly, and they went up significantly once he left.....Giants need to get that guy back....I am pretty sure that wherever Wellman goes, the injuries go down
Don't think you can blame a lot of those injuries on Strength and Conditioning. Anything due to the neck was on the field. Gates was stepped on, Barkley was going to tear his ACL eventually with the way he moves. I mean , a lot of these have just been really bad luck. The good part going forward is all the guys can be replaced in the next few years. It's not like we're losing these super amazing players. I'd say the biggest loss was Martinez.
I agree for the most part, but poor training habits can lead to ACL injuries. I recall for Saquon specifically, before he was injured, had posted a video of him doing squats, and someone commented that his technique was bad and could lead to knee injuries.
So many things have changed since then - major knee injury, continuous ankle problems, offensive scheme changes, QB change, OL changes....
I don't think it's a stretch to think that 2018 might as well have been a lifetime ago for him - it's too bad.
He was looking like a guy who could be a 10-year starter at center with Seubert-like aggressiveness.
How much better would be if we didn't need to worry about fixing the OC now (along with LT)?
He was looking like a guy who could be a 10-year starter at center with Seubert-like aggressiveness.
How much better would be if we didn't need to worry about fixing the OC now (along with LT)?
The similarities are striking. Both were undrafted free agents; both are very good players; both are high character guys and both had very similar injuries.
Jones. He admitted in an article on BBV that he can't have any contact until August. We need to therefore plan on having someone else as our starting QB this season. Jones is likely gone after 2022. He hasn't done much, and a new GM and coach will likely and understandably want their own QB.
Barkley. Fantastic rookie season. Might bounce back with another year of healing, but I think he's also gone after 2022. Might even be traded before then. Less concern about him physically than Jones but his joystick running style may make him more susceptible to injuries.
Toney. Lots of nagging injuries, similar to what he had in college. Also a similar style of running to Barkley. May not have the frame to hold up consistently in the NFL. But he'll be here in 2022. He had a few "make you miss" plays, was a first round pick, is going into his second year, and our QB play was awful.
Holmes, Smith, Lemieux. All will be back.
Martinez. Probably here in 2022, but will likely start on the PUP. Could see him being cut with an injury settlement to free up much needed cap room.
R. Williams. Low cost so no harm in bringing him back. Starts on the PUP, but will likely miss most of 2022. That will put him way behind going into 2023. He was also 25 IIRC when we drafted him.
Peart. Will miss all of 2022 IMO because he tore his ACL in December. Comes to camp in 2023 with no guarantees.
Did Jones really say that? I missed that quote.
Did Jones really say that? I missed that quote.
That's my recollection. Somebody did post the link to the article on BBV.
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Fair take.
Did Jones really say that? I missed that quote.
That's my recollection. Somebody did post the link to the article on BBV.
The Jones quote is in this article, maybe halfway down.
Giants.com - ( New Window )
Nicks
Steve Smith
Manningham (his knee is a major reason we let him go)
Cruz
OBJ (glad he is doing well at the moment for LA, but he’s not the same player he was)
Jones doesn’t expect doctors to clear him for contact until August, but his injury will not prevent him from training this offseason or from returning to action next season.
“I can do everything from a lifting, throwing, running standpoint. I’m not limited in those areas,” Jones said. “It is a process. I think it’s weeks, but it’s really irrelevant at this point because I don’t expect to be doing any contact.”
there is no contact until August so he was stating that he expects to be fine well before that.
As far as the rest, Barkley is tee'd up in a prove it year. If someone is willing to give up something good via trade you consider it. Or you keep him because his cap number is reasonable.
Shepard is unfortunately too injury prone to be relied on for a roster spot. June 1 cut unless he's willing to take a crazy paycut.
Martinez tore his ACL early enough he should be ok but LB is a need with or without him.
Peart/Lemiuex/Gates are the unlucky ones. don't think anyone would have guessed they'd go 0-3 this year establishing themselves and get injured to the point they'd have their 2022 seasons in any doubt. the only silver lining is that their injury status will necessitate more resources going into the OL and if they do come back healthy they will provide more quality depth. I really hope Gates can be the next Seubert.
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In comment 15564041 Eric from BBI said:
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Fair take.
Did Jones really say that? I missed that quote.
That's my recollection. Somebody did post the link to the article on BBV.
The Jones quote is in this article, maybe halfway down. Giants.com - ( New Window )
Jesus, that doesn't sound good. His neck is obviously worse off than Joe Judge repeatedly said.
I don't think that's what he said. He said he expected to be cleared for contact by August. August is the first time there would be contact practices in the first place, so he was simply saying he expects to be cleared by the time clearance is even necessary. Not being cleared until August seems to be a misinterpretation of his words.
Exactly, he was simply saying contact isn't even an issue until August.
Agreed. I would much rather have my RB gain 11 yards on 3 carries every time, than one who gains 10 yards in 2 series and 25 yards in the third series. The Giants didn’t and don’t have a bad defense but they wear down because the offense can’t sustain a drive. A bunch of 40 yard runs would be real nice, but not if you give up the ball in the next 3 plays.
Jesus, that doesn't sound good. His neck is obviously worse off than Joe Judge repeatedly said.
What about this sounds bad?
“I can do everything from a lifting, throwing, running standpoint. I’m not limited in those areas,” Jones said. “It is a process. I think it’s weeks, but it’s really irrelevant at this point because I don’t expect to be doing any contact.”
"There's no contact for me until August," he said. "So, I can do everything from a lifting, throwing, running standpoint. I'm not limited in those areas. It is a process. I think it's weeks, but it's really irrelevant at this point because I don't expect to be doing any contact."
It does not seem clear to me either way tbh.
You may want to go back and re-read Sy's game reviews. It's not good.
he was ok - for a late camp addition he was fine. the question going forward is $ cost, and whether or not it's worth investing more in an upgrade. he will likely want to go somewhere on a 1 year deal where he can get a starting spot or at least be in an open competition.
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So approximately 600 yards of rushing on 13 plays. That means on the other 248 carries he averaged 2.85 yds per carry and had many negative plays. Watch Taylor or Henry or Mixon. They're never stopped at or behind the LOS. Even in his "great" season, Barkley was not a great running back.
And what kind of player was Babe Ruth if you took away his home runs?
I'd sign up for 4 yards a pop along with big play capability behind a bad line.
George Young used to say that someone might not know anything about football, but his/her eyes would automatically be drawn to Lawrence Taylor because he was so much better than anyone on the field.
Saquon Barkley had that kind of presence as a rookie. Your eyes were automatically drawn to him because he operated at a different speed. More importantly, he scared the shit out of the defense.
Didn't say he wasn't a special talent. I said he didn't help us win.
Widely recognized as having lots of talent. People that he was turning the corner last year. He didn't put up sack numbers and then got hurt. Graham loved his attitude. He looked like a much different player for at least the last 6 games. He was putting up sack numbers the last 4 but he was playing well a couple of games before that.
Was it fool's gold or did it take him awhile to recover from injury and could he solve our pass rush problem?
2022 is all about identifying and developing the OL and BPA in the draft. I call it a developmental tank year.
It seems like the latter, but IMO the issue is irrelevant because the fact that he can't have any contact at the earliest until late spring is a clear indication that his neck injury was pretty severe. He may have a permanent weakness in that area that could make him more susceptible to injury. A neck is not an ACL.
All of this likely precludes trading him, and as I said, a new coach and GM will likely want their own QB. He'd therefore need an incredible performance in 2022 to stay here after this season.
It seems like the latter, but IMO the issue is irrelevant because the fact that he can't have any contact at the earliest until late spring is a clear indication that his neck injury was pretty severe. He may have a permanent weakness in that area that could make him more susceptible to injury. A neck is not an ACL.
All of this likely precludes trading him, and as I said, a new coach and GM will likely want their own QB. He'd therefore need an incredible performance in 2022 to stay here after this season.
"There's no contact for me until August," he said. "So, I can do everything from a lifting, throwing, running standpoint. I'm not limited in those areas. It is a process. I think it's weeks, but it's really irrelevant at this point because I don't expect to be doing any contact."
it's not a surgical injury where there's a specific timeline so nobody knows exactly when it will resolve but he seems "absolutely" sure it will be before camp and thinks it will be weeks (not months).
Widely recognized as having lots of talent. People that he was turning the corner last year. He didn't put up sack numbers and then got hurt. Graham loved his attitude. He looked like a much different player for at least the last 6 games. He was putting up sack numbers the last 4 but he was playing well a couple of games before that.
Was it fool's gold or did it take him awhile to recover from injury and could he solve our pass rush problem?
Because he's moved past the injury. Whether or not he is a good football player is a different question.
Comprehensive thread starter with lots of examples.
If there is an "upside" to all of this, it's that the Giants are starting at the very bottom of the NFL, and were far and away the worst team down the stretch, so as the old saying goes, "There's nowhere to go but up."
Perhaps the worst scenario is that the tentative steps upward take longer.
I think fans and the media are finally catching on to what the research medicine has said for a while — it’s a long rehab to get back to who you were after an ACL tear.
Guys can get on the field in a year, but regaining everything is longer.
Are you giving Blake Martinez 8.5M for a year missing half a step?
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problem is that Jones's statement that "There's no contact for me until August" is ambiguous. Did he mean that he can't have any contact until August under any circumstances, or did he mean "There's no contact for me until August anyway" and I'll be healed by then?
It seems like the latter, but IMO the issue is irrelevant because the fact that he can't have any contact at the earliest until late spring is a clear indication that his neck injury was pretty severe. He may have a permanent weakness in that area that could make him more susceptible to injury. A neck is not an ACL.
All of this likely precludes trading him, and as I said, a new coach and GM will likely want their own QB. He'd therefore need an incredible performance in 2022 to stay here after this season.
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“ Jones said he "absolutely" expects to be fully cleared in the spring or summer.”
"There's no contact for me until August," he said. "So, I can do everything from a lifting, throwing, running standpoint. I'm not limited in those areas. It is a process. I think it's weeks, but it's really irrelevant at this point because I don't expect to be doing any contact."
it's not a surgical injury where there's a specific timeline so nobody knows exactly when it will resolve but he seems "absolutely" sure it will be before camp and thinks it will be weeks (not months).
Those are just Jones's expectations and opinions. He isn't a doctor. But even if he is medically cleared for contact in late spring or summer, which seems likely, my point remains. The fact that he can't be medically cleared until then at the earliest is a very good indication that his injury was pretty severe, if only because that would be more than half a year after it happened. If we were in the playoffs now, he wouldn't be playing. As I said, he might have a permanent weakness that makes him more susceptible to injuring his neck.
Assuming he's cleared, I'm fine bringing him back for 2022, with no fifth year option. That may in fact be the only option. I don't see anyone trading for him under these circumstances. Who is going to assume an $8.3 million cap hit for him with his injury history?
The injuries have derailed his performance, obviously.
If the QB situation improves -- whether it's Jones getting better behind a better OL, or whether it's someone better, Barkley SHOULD be better again -- IF HE EVER FULLY RECOVERS from the ACL, both physically AND mentally. But that's a BIG IF.
That said, if I'm the new GM, I don't give him more than a 1 year prove-it deal, based on all the factors I mention above. If he doesn't like that idea, trade him.
His median YPC was 2 and his mode YPC was 1.
George Young used to say that someone might not know anything about football, but his/her eyes would automatically be drawn to Lawrence Taylor because he was so much better than anyone on the field.
Saquon Barkley had that kind of presence as a rookie. Your eyes were automatically drawn to him because he operated at a different speed. More importantly, he scared the shit out of the defense.
Plays where the ball went to Barkley averages 5.3 yards in 2018. League average was 5.6.
I know we want to blow the whole thing up, but he's still a useful piece going forward, and at bare minimum, a very solid vet presence.
This is going to be a brand new roster in 3-4 years - I wouldn't fret about anyone currently on it.
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Not sure how anyone who actually watches the games could not say Saquon Barkley was a special, special football player in 2018.
George Young used to say that someone might not know anything about football, but his/her eyes would automatically be drawn to Lawrence Taylor because he was so much better than anyone on the field.
Saquon Barkley had that kind of presence as a rookie. Your eyes were automatically drawn to him because he operated at a different speed. More importantly, he scared the shit out of the defense.
Plays where the ball went to Barkley averages 5.3 yards in 2018. League average was 5.6.
Careful there, you might fail the “IQ” test as stated earlier in the thread.
Saquon Barkley is the only player in the history of the NFL that gets absolutely destroyed because he didn’t put an absolutely dreadful football team on his back and lead them from having the second worst record in the league to the playoffs in his rookie season. It’s the strangest thing.
The list of top ten picks that were drafted to awful football teams and didn’t single handedly vault them to the playoffs in their rookie seasons is long and distinguished. In fact it almost never happens. But apparently Barkley is the only one that was expected to
Is that league average figure for RBs?
I'd sign up for 4 yards a pop along with big play capability behind a bad line.
Total yardage was 1307 on 262 carries. He had 576 carries on his top 13 runs (44%), 781 on his top 26 (59.7%).
all 2018 barkley carries - ( New Window )
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Not sure how anyone who actually watches the games could not say Saquon Barkley was a special, special football player in 2018.
George Young used to say that someone might not know anything about football, but his/her eyes would automatically be drawn to Lawrence Taylor because he was so much better than anyone on the field.
Saquon Barkley had that kind of presence as a rookie. Your eyes were automatically drawn to him because he operated at a different speed. More importantly, he scared the shit out of the defense.
Plays where the ball went to Barkley averages 5.3 yards in 2018. League average was 5.6.
League average for who? Is this for RBs only?
What was the league average for TDs? Isn’t the idea to score points?
Taking his stats out of the equation he changed how defenses played the Giants. Look at the first game in 2020. Tomlin staked the box and Jones had one of his better passing days. Others followed suit.
The issue was the Giants were never able to put the other two components together that would have made the Giants a tough cover; a good OL and skill players. Crap on DG all you want but if his first FA class additions performed above average Eli would have taken the Giants to the playoffs imv. Even at a diminished state (Eli), Eli's mind would have been very challenging with his audibles at the line.
2022 has to be about purging the cap of bad money.
I cannot believe Gettleman managed to get the Giants in Cap Hell all while having a QB on a rookie contract. Truly special
Link - ( New Window )
I looked at the numbers last year at some point - if 2020 Wayne Gallman had received that many opportunities he would have had something like 1700 yards and 13 TDs.
Barkley's big rookie year numbers were about quantity of touches and opportunities. And then the following three seasons he broke.
Hugely overrated. Not a great player. Not even a good one.
I’m fine with those that don’t think Barkley was worth picking. I’m not fine making things up. Was our offense better or worse in 2018/19 than 2020/21? Simple question with a simple answer.
Assuming he's cleared, I'm fine bringing him back for 2022, with no fifth year option. That may in fact be the only option. I don't see anyone trading for him under these circumstances. Who is going to assume an $8.3 million cap hit for him with his injury history?
These are a lot of separate points - most of which I agree with. None change the fact that Jones wasn't all that ambiguous in his statements and certainly not to the extent to get hyperbolic about permanent weakness. He said he is currently without limitation throwing/running/lifting since obviously there is no contact until August and he "absolutely" expects to be cleared for contact before contact begins. No he is not a doctor, but has any credible doctor speculated otherwise?
I looked at the numbers last year at some point - if 2020 Wayne Gallman had received that many opportunities he would have had something like 1700 yards and 13 TDs.
Barkley's big rookie year numbers were about quantity of touches and opportunities. And then the following three seasons he broke.
Hugely overrated. Not a great player. Not even a good one.
You use that stat a lot and I feel like you don’t understand it, or apply it incorrectly. Case I point, 2016 cowboys - they go 13-3 on the back of Elliott who had 5.5 yp opportunity.
I looked at the numbers last year at some point - if 2020 Wayne Gallman had received that many opportunities he would have had something like 1700 yards and 13 TDs.
Barkley's big rookie year numbers were about quantity of touches and opportunities. And then the following three seasons he broke.
Hugely overrated. Not a great player. Not even a good one.
Still think a stat like that needs to be focused on the RB group for accuracy.
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Was never a plus player anyway—notice the team record when Barkley was at his best. Barkley’s rookie stats look nice on the surface, dig a little deeper and see they were not all that impressive.
I’m fine with those that don’t think Barkley was worth picking. I’m not fine making things up. Was our offense better or worse in 2018/19 than 2020/21? Simple question with a simple answer.
The question is simple, not sure the answer is. Similar to looking at Barkley's rookie stats, looking at the statistics simply they are very good, adding context takes away from them greatly for a player drafted #2 overall.
The fact that he played in the Denver opener - a Judge decision that infuriated me - and limped off does suggest to me that he will heal and be in the mix for training camp.
Really good post and thread, btw.
there is an average yardage for passing plays.
there is an average yardage for rushing plays.
the 2 are different.
combining them is to the detriment of every RB and proves only that running plays average less yardage than passing plays. and I supposed the intellectual dishonesty of the person using the stat.
I don't see any way around it
I looked at the numbers last year at some point - if 2020 Wayne Gallman had received that many opportunities he would have had something like 1700 yards and 13 TDs.
Barkley's big rookie year numbers were about quantity of touches and opportunities. And then the following three seasons he broke.
Hugely overrated. Not a great player. Not even a good one.
Again, I can't imagine someone like you who actually watched the football games in 2018, and didn't come away going "wow, wow, wow." And this was on a team that simply couldn't block for shit. Go back and look at the 2018 offensive line.
Was he a consistently reliable back that you would want on 3rd-and-1. No, but neither was Barry Sanders.
there is an average yardage for passing plays.
there is an average yardage for rushing plays.
the 2 are different.
combining them is to the detriment of every RB and proves only that running plays average less yardage than passing plays. and I supposed the intellectual dishonesty of the person using the stat.
That's the point - RBs aren't particularly valuable, and very easily replaced.
I don't see any way around it
There are different kind of ugly's. Ugly because it is just the way one is. Ugly that came from a beating, but should heal nicely.
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In comment 15563904 Slowasski said:
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Was never a plus player anyway—notice the team record when Barkley was at his best. Barkley’s rookie stats look nice on the surface, dig a little deeper and see they were not all that impressive.
I’m fine with those that don’t think Barkley was worth picking. I’m not fine making things up. Was our offense better or worse in 2018/19 than 2020/21? Simple question with a simple answer.
The question is simple, not sure the answer is. Similar to looking at Barkley's rookie stats, looking at the statistics simply they are very good, adding context takes away from them greatly for a player drafted #2 overall.
Well it is. When you go from 16th and 16th to effectively dead last in back to back years it’s fairly foolish to suggest he wasn’t a plus player.
You need to separate thinking the pick sucked with what happened on the field.
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The ball went his way (touches + targets) almost 400 times.
I looked at the numbers last year at some point - if 2020 Wayne Gallman had received that many opportunities he would have had something like 1700 yards and 13 TDs.
Barkley's big rookie year numbers were about quantity of touches and opportunities. And then the following three seasons he broke.
Hugely overrated. Not a great player. Not even a good one.
Again, I can't imagine someone like you who actually watched the football games in 2018, and didn't come away going "wow, wow, wow." And this was on a team that simply couldn't block for shit. Go back and look at the 2018 offensive line.
Was he a consistently reliable back that you would want on 3rd-and-1. No, but neither was Barry Sanders.
"wow wow" does not equate to wins. Fun for highlights though.
But to say he wasn't great his rookie season is just mind boggling to me. 2,000 yards on that offense?
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In comment 15564246 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15563904 Slowasski said:
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Was never a plus player anyway—notice the team record when Barkley was at his best. Barkley’s rookie stats look nice on the surface, dig a little deeper and see they were not all that impressive.
I’m fine with those that don’t think Barkley was worth picking. I’m not fine making things up. Was our offense better or worse in 2018/19 than 2020/21? Simple question with a simple answer.
The question is simple, not sure the answer is. Similar to looking at Barkley's rookie stats, looking at the statistics simply they are very good, adding context takes away from them greatly for a player drafted #2 overall.
Well it is. When you go from 16th and 16th to effectively dead last in back to back years it’s fairly foolish to suggest he wasn’t a plus player.
You need to separate thinking the pick sucked with what happened on the field.
And how much responsibility does Barkley have for those drop in numbers? Perhaps Shurmur was the main reason for Barkley's success?
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I would say it matters how the player gets to those numbers. I was never a fan of Barry Sanders either. His style was not compatible with winning consistently.
He was tied for 41st in the NFL amongst RBs
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Sure it does. 2,000 yards and 15 touchdowns for a running back usually equals wins.
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I would say it matters how the player gets to those numbers. I was never a fan of Barry Sanders either. His style was not compatible with winning consistently.
In 2018, Barkley had 15 touchdowns.
In 2021, the New York Giants as a team had 23 touchdowns.
But in your world, touchdowns are some flimsy stat. Weird.
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In comment 15564272 Slowasski said:
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In comment 15564246 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15563904 Slowasski said:
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Was never a plus player anyway—notice the team record when Barkley was at his best. Barkley’s rookie stats look nice on the surface, dig a little deeper and see they were not all that impressive.
I’m fine with those that don’t think Barkley was worth picking. I’m not fine making things up. Was our offense better or worse in 2018/19 than 2020/21? Simple question with a simple answer.
The question is simple, not sure the answer is. Similar to looking at Barkley's rookie stats, looking at the statistics simply they are very good, adding context takes away from them greatly for a player drafted #2 overall.
Well it is. When you go from 16th and 16th to effectively dead last in back to back years it’s fairly foolish to suggest he wasn’t a plus player.
You need to separate thinking the pick sucked with what happened on the field.
And how much responsibility does Barkley have for those drop in numbers? Perhaps Shurmur was the main reason for Barkley's success?
Some but not enough to chalk Barkley's rookie year up to "not a plus player". How have we been rushing the ball in the 5/6 years prior to Barkley and the 2 after his injury? Much larger sample size that reaches much further than Pat shurmur. The data is painfully obvious.
I don't disagree right now the pick used on SB looks like a poor decision. After his 2018 season that was not really the case given the poor collection of talent around him, and all the short-timers in the building. And I say this as one who doesn't disagree a RB at #2 overall in today's NFL is often a poor gamble.
It's a different perspective now given his injuries, and the even poorer status of the roster. If the decision is to trade him, I'm fine with it. He was still terrific in 2018, and I've seen every great tailback in the NFL from Payton to the present.
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Sure it does. 2,000 yards and 15 touchdowns for a running back usually equals wins.
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I would say it matters how the player gets to those numbers. I was never a fan of Barry Sanders either. His style was not compatible with winning consistently.
I love this example. Does this mean Calvin Johnson's style you can't win with either?
We need to evaluate DJ and SB under an OC who believes in design to maximize strengths of a player and minimize weaknesses. Naturally, nothing will work if only 1 of 5 o-linemen is even minimally competent.
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In comment 15564296 Eric from BBI said:
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Sure it does. 2,000 yards and 15 touchdowns for a running back usually equals wins.
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I would say it matters how the player gets to those numbers. I was never a fan of Barry Sanders either. His style was not compatible with winning consistently.
In 2018, Barkley had 15 touchdowns.
In 2021, the New York Giants as a team had 23 touchdowns.
But in your world, touchdowns are some flimsy stat. Weird.
As with all statistics, context matters. Outside of his big runs, he let the team down with his lack of consistency from play to play. Barkley is not the RB that helps his defense or really his own offense for that matter by consistently getting plus yardage. Good back for a team looking for a nice gadget player, not for a team looking for consistency to keep the offense on the field and the defense off.
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passing plays ≠ running plays.
there is an average yardage for passing plays.
there is an average yardage for rushing plays.
the 2 are different.
combining them is to the detriment of every RB and proves only that running plays average less yardage than passing plays. and I supposed the intellectual dishonesty of the person using the stat.
That's the point - RBs aren't particularly valuable, and very easily replaced.
And there you have it. Because RBs aren't important, what Barkley did in 2018 wasn't impressive. Never mind that if we take the yards-per-touch stat seriously, Gallman had a measly 4.1 yards a touch in 2018. Wouldn't that tell you that Barkley did more with less?
It's possible to argue Barkley was a bad draft pick (something I'd agree with) without tying yourself into statistical knots trying to claim he performed badly in 2018. I can't imagine another fan base going to such lengths to disparage a season in which a rookie got 2000+ yards from scrimmage.
I don't see any way around it
I counted 5 wins max. Could be 2-3.
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In comment 15564296 Eric from BBI said:
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Sure it does. 2,000 yards and 15 touchdowns for a running back usually equals wins.
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I would say it matters how the player gets to those numbers. I was never a fan of Barry Sanders either. His style was not compatible with winning consistently.
I love this example. Does this mean Calvin Johnson's style you can't win with either?
How many of Calvin Johnson's receptions went for negative yardage, or hurt the team in other ways?
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In comment 15564277 Eric on Li said:
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passing plays ≠ running plays.
there is an average yardage for passing plays.
there is an average yardage for rushing plays.
the 2 are different.
combining them is to the detriment of every RB and proves only that running plays average less yardage than passing plays. and I supposed the intellectual dishonesty of the person using the stat.
That's the point - RBs aren't particularly valuable, and very easily replaced.
And there you have it. Because RBs aren't important, what Barkley did in 2018 wasn't impressive. Never mind that if we take the yards-per-touch stat seriously, Gallman had a measly 4.1 yards a touch in 2018. Wouldn't that tell you that Barkley did more with less?
It's possible to argue Barkley was a bad draft pick (something I'd agree with) without tying yourself into statistical knots trying to claim he performed badly in 2018. I can't imagine another fan base going to such lengths to disparage a season in which a rookie got 2000+ yards from scrimmage.
Gallman's production was pitiful, absolutely dreadful IMO. Those "hard yards" everyone talks about that he got led us to the 31st ranked offense. Those shitty big gains of Barkley's with no "hard yards" led to an offense that scored an additional TD per game in comparison.
This is such a loaded, disingenuous conversation.
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In comment 15564299 Slowasski said:
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In comment 15564296 Eric from BBI said:
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Sure it does. 2,000 yards and 15 touchdowns for a running back usually equals wins.
I don't know if you know this, but the 2018 New York Giants were a really, really bad team. News break.
I would say it matters how the player gets to those numbers. I was never a fan of Barry Sanders either. His style was not compatible with winning consistently.
I love this example. Does this mean Calvin Johnson's style you can't win with either?
How many of Calvin Johnson's receptions went for negative yardage, or hurt the team in other ways?
Not sure but considering he played 2 playoff games, I can argue that he didn't do enough for them, right?
Meanwhile negative yardage Barry sanders actually played in 6 playoff games (despite a career that wasn't much longer).
You can twist this however you want, but it isn't adding up.
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passing plays ≠ running plays.
there is an average yardage for passing plays.
there is an average yardage for rushing plays.
the 2 are different.
combining them is to the detriment of every RB and proves only that running plays average less yardage than passing plays. and I supposed the intellectual dishonesty of the person using the stat.
That's the point - RBs aren't particularly valuable, and very easily replaced.
That's a different point, and one also not proven well by this ridiculously stupid stat (see Terrell Davis 1998).
In terms of just running backs, however invaluable as you may think they are, was Barkley "not even good" in 2018?
The best thing I'd say about Barkley's 2018 was that he was able to take on an enormous workload.
The best thing I'd say about Barkley's 2018 was that he was able to take on an enormous workload.
Well he was for the Giants, we've seen what it looks like without him.
You are still combining picking a RB at 2 with Barkley's rookie production and what it meant to the team, its like you are scared to admit 1 thing and it will tarnish your rep here.
You cited YP opportunity and it correlates strongly with the differences in offensive production the Giants had in 2018 and even 2019 with 2020/2021. I'd say losing Barkley in 2020 and not being his old self in 2021 is pretty invaluable - i know this because we stopped scoring points.
Main issue, though, is that we have too many players that were selected in the draft or FA's with histories of injuries. Or have demonstrated they can't stay healthy in the NFL.
The new GM HAS to stop drafting injured players who have "potential"...it isn't worth it in the long run. Especially when the season has been expanded, their bodies simply can't take the hits long term.
As far as Barkley goes, drafting him #2 wasn't the issue. Drafting him #2 with an AWFUL Offensive line was a recipe for disaster. If the team had an average or better OLine, both Barkley and Eli would have been significantly better.
Oh, and teams that have better lines on Offense and Defense more likely will have less injuries. Why? The better Offensive lines will not allow their skill players to get hit as often, and the better Defensive Lines won't get dominated and allow the LB's/DB's to get hit. It's always better to be the hammer than the nail.
Is that league average figure for RBs?
the problem with boom or bust rb's is that it is hard to sustain drives
Look, two things can be true at the same time 1) SB was terrific in 2018 and 2) taking a RB at #2 overall can be a mistake even if they're a terrific individual talent.
Third, he's not the same player right now and that requires sound evaluation and decision making moving forward.
Look, two things can be true at the same time 1) SB was terrific in 2018 and 2) taking a RB at #2 overall can be a mistake even if they're a terrific individual talent.
Third, he's not the same player right now and that requires sound evaluation and decision making moving forward.
3/3.
Bottom line, a smart team would plan as if both are not expected to be available in 2022. Fill those holes, they badly need the OL talent regardless.
Panicking and then adding Price just before the season started only got us bad Center play and Gates injured in a forced transition.
Maybe Schoen has more common sense than his predecessor and realizes that Center is an actual position that requires specific draft investment...