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Flores/Daboll/Ryans: Your preference & your pros and cons

Beezer : 1/21/2022 12:27 pm
Just from reading, it would seem the two Brians (Flores and Daboll) and DeMeco Ryans are the majority of BBI's favorites to be the next Giants HC, in no particular order.

Clearly, none of us (OK, maybe a couple have a better view) really know what will go into the hiring. None of us will be "in the room."

But on a very surface level, I think at this point my preference, and it's a slight edge, goes to Flores because of his experience and relative success in Miami. I'm still surprised he was let go. He ran the entire operation, and while there were issues, the overall record is leaps and bounds closer to where the Giants need to be within a season or two, tops.

I can see definite pluses for hiring either Daboll (current Bills OC) or Ryans (current Niners DC), both of whom had very nice playoff first round showings. We get to see more this weekend.

I'd be happy with one of these three, coming out of Schoen's process.

Where are you on these three? Are they your top choices and if so, what order? If not, who is it for you, and why, over these three?
Quinn….  
DJ5150 : 1/21/2022 12:33 pm : link
….. defense wins championships…. We lost our way and need to get back to that.
RE: Quinn….  
Beezer : 1/21/2022 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15564588 DJ5150 said:
Quote:
….. defense wins championships…. We lost our way and need to get back to that.


Hiring a guy out of Dallas this past season doesn't concern you?

I want no part of that.
I agree with  
DonnieD89 : 1/21/2022 12:40 pm : link
your statement regarding Flores. Would be very curious to see who Flores would want for OC, if hired.
Not Flores  
Southern Man : 1/21/2022 12:43 pm : link
Concerned with his past power struggles with GM and ownership.
I am hopeful the Giants put  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/21/2022 12:48 pm : link
together a championship team over the next 5 years. That team will hopefully have a highly impactful front 7 with complementary secondary and a offense built through the running game with a big play young QB.

Flores seems the best of the choices to me and has some lessons learned to build on with prior experience.

Daboll  
kdog77 : 1/21/2022 12:50 pm : link
Pros - Has working relationship with GM, can establish identity on Offense and call plays

Cons - Never been a HC at any level, needs to find great DC and does not have great QB situation to work with.

Flores is a close 2nd, but only because of his HC experience. If he had losing season with Miami this year or was still Pats DC then I don't think he even gets an interview.

Dan Quinn is the dark horse. Veteran DC with HC experience, including a SB appearance in Atlanta. Limited help on Offense, needs great OC.

McDaniels is the wild card. He has HC experience and is considered the heir apparent in NE. Would he take a shot to lead Papa Bill's favorite football team?
Less inclined to go with Flores  
AcesUp : 1/21/2022 12:53 pm : link
If the GM doesn't have a working history with him. He very well could be a tough guy to work with so I'm not sure if going in blind is the best move. I don't really think Ryans would be on the table here without a connection. The leaked names seem to have a lot of experience as well.

With the Schoen hire, I think it just makes tons of sense to just run it with Daboll. While I don't consider it a pre-requisite, life is a little easier in the NFL for an offensive-minded coach. And while owners are saying the right things now, we'll see what happens if/when some hard decisions need to be made. Having a unified voice from two of your biggest leaders that were in on the ground floor of a similar knockdown/rebuild should go a long way. If you want the Giants to emulate a better, more stable front office, this is the easiest path.
I like all three  
CV36 : 1/21/2022 12:55 pm : link
I also like that Quinn could draw more experienced coordinators.
Who would Daboll bring as DC? Who would Ryans bring as OC and DC?
Flores is in the middle somewhere but Quinn has a bigger pool of people who would follow. So far they are doing good.
Daboll  
Go Terps : 1/21/2022 12:56 pm : link
The way his offense works shows an understanding of what it takes to score points and win games.

That's what the focus has to be on: how do we become one of the top scoring offenses in the league.
RE: Daboll  
Sean : 1/21/2022 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15564688 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The way his offense works shows an understanding of what it takes to score points and win games.

That's what the focus has to be on: how do we become one of the top scoring offenses in the league.

Agreed. I also think it is easier to assimilate to a new DC as opposed to bringing in a new offense. With the way the league is going, the offense needs to be sustainable.

Every NFC head coach in the playoffs is on the offensive side of the ball.
Schoen  
Professor Falken : 1/21/2022 1:05 pm : link
worked in Miami for almost a decade. I'd think he could find out pretty easily if Flores is a pain in the ass or not.
3 thoughts  
Rory : 1/21/2022 1:05 pm : link
1. my opinion only but with a first time GM, I think a veteran HC is needed here.

2. Flores leaves open the possibility of retaining Graham (which I like)

3. I worry defensive minded HC might not want make offensive line the priority in the draft. For the record I want 2 OL in the 1st.
Big No To Flores  
Trainmaster : 1/21/2022 1:07 pm : link
Another Flores negative is likely keeping “Bend & Break” Graham.

also Doug Pederson  
Rory : 1/21/2022 1:09 pm : link
is a name I wish they would consider.
Would you hire this guy?  
5BowlsSoon : 1/21/2022 1:10 pm : link
Would you hire this guy to be your HC with this resume?

24-25 record in 3 seasons
Highest offensive rank: 15th (2020)
Strength of Schedule going into 2021: .471 (T-27th)
Strength of Schedule going into 2022: .481 (22nd)


If you haven’t guessed, this is Flores resume as HC. Just sayin’
Daboll  
AcesUp : 1/21/2022 1:10 pm : link
Leaves the door open for Graham as well. I really don't understand the hate he gets here, he's a good coach. He'll be a DC in the NFL next year.
Whoever Schoen feels he can work best with  
widmerseyebrow : 1/21/2022 1:12 pm : link
HC and GM have been out of sync for a long time. That said I'm not against any of the above if Schoen picks them.
Remember: Tom Coughlin had plenty of warts coming from Jacksonville  
widmerseyebrow : 1/21/2022 1:13 pm : link
and it worked out pretty well. None of the candidates is perfect and have had their fair share of failures. But the best learn from their mistakes.
I'm in for the person Schoen picks. But I'd like to see someone  
mikeinbloomfield : 1/21/2022 1:16 pm : link
with experience, because they are going to be bad next year and I don't know how well a first-time coach is going to handle being bad around here.

New GM or not, you know the "in over his head" crap is going to start week three if they're 0-3.
Flores  
Snablats : 1/21/2022 1:20 pm : link
He needs the Coughlin "you gotta change and lighten up" speech from Mara, and be told to forget about Watson. If he agrees to both, he is your man
tough one  
LG in NYC : 1/21/2022 1:20 pm : link
Flores is interesting and seemed to be a guy on the rise in MIA until he wasn't. Now he is fired with some noise around him. Not exactly inspiring.

Daboll - easy to get excited about but good coordinators do not automatically make good HC's. In fact the highway is littered with them.

Ryans - wasn't he just playing? Same comments as Daboll though if I am taking a chance on a coord, I am leaning towards offense.

So I guess if I have to choose, I go Daboll.

QUINN - no thank you
PEDERSEN - maybe, it is intriguing for sure
Harbaugh Off The Table?  
Trainmaster : 1/21/2022 1:33 pm : link
Seemed like Peters / Harbaugh was more likely.
RE: Daboll  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 1:44 pm : link
In comment 15564688 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The way his offense works shows an understanding of what it takes to score points and win games.

That's what the focus has to be on: how do we become one of the top scoring offenses in the league.


How do you become one of the top scoring offenses in the league? Draft Josh Allen. Daboll's previous two short-lived stints as OC with the Dolphins and Chiefs, his offenses were near the bottom of the league.
Flores has actual experience doing the job he’d be hired for  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/21/2022 1:48 pm : link
and most importantly, doing it well. For all of the talk about offense, guys like Waddle and Gesicki were excellent this season. I think the Dolphins squeezed everything possible out of Tua.
What is lost here  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/21/2022 1:53 pm : link
Is Schoen has been in two places that both had outstanding defenses led by defenses HC's. He also has strong ties to Parcells another defense HC. It may not be Flores but I think he will give strong consideration to his past.
No thanks on Flores and Hell No to Quinn  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 1/21/2022 1:55 pm : link
Ryans excites me, but I think the Schoen/Daboll connection makes too much sense to pass up.
Daboll  
bigblue5611 : 1/21/2022 1:57 pm : link
See 01/16/2022 against Pats.
RE: Remember: Tom Coughlin had plenty of warts coming from Jacksonville  
djm : 1/21/2022 1:59 pm : link
In comment 15564771 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
and it worked out pretty well. None of the candidates is perfect and have had their fair share of failures. But the best learn from their mistakes.


Coughlin also had already completely taken BC to heights not seen since and he had 4 straight very good years in Jax under his belt. He was a known winner by the time 04 came around. We just got lucky that he had those 2 bad years to round out his tenure because without those bad years he's probably not even available in 04.
I dont think we will hire  
Dankbeerman : 1/21/2022 2:00 pm : link
a 1st time Coach who was a DC. I think we are looking at Quinn and Flores but they are proven or at least have a hostory as HC's.

If we bring in a 1st time HC it will be because he is a tip flight OC. Dabol/Leftwitch ext.
RE: RE: Daboll  
Heisenberg : 1/21/2022 2:10 pm : link
In comment 15564897 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15564688 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The way his offense works shows an understanding of what it takes to score points and win games.

That's what the focus has to be on: how do we become one of the top scoring offenses in the league.



How do you become one of the top scoring offenses in the league? Draft Josh Allen. Daboll's previous two short-lived stints as OC with the Dolphins and Chiefs, his offenses were near the bottom of the league.


What should he have done with Matt Moore, Chadd Henne, Brady Quinn and Matt Cassell? He's penalized because Josh Allen is one of the best in football and gets no credit for how he's developed?
RE: RE: RE: Daboll  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 2:16 pm : link
In comment 15565009 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 15564897 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15564688 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The way his offense works shows an understanding of what it takes to score points and win games.

That's what the focus has to be on: how do we become one of the top scoring offenses in the league.



How do you become one of the top scoring offenses in the league? Draft Josh Allen. Daboll's previous two short-lived stints as OC with the Dolphins and Chiefs, his offenses were near the bottom of the league.



What should he have done with Matt Moore, Chadd Henne, Brady Quinn and Matt Cassell? He's penalized because Josh Allen is one of the best in football and gets no credit for how he's developed?


Allen gets no credit for his talent? The Giants QB situation is closer to what he had with the Chiefs and the Dolphins, than what he has with the Bills. Flores has won with mediocre QB play (and an atrocious OL, that is arguably worse than the Giants).

Daboll has not had success as an OC without Josh Allen. Daboll has not had success as a head coach. Does that mean he won't ever? Certainly not. I'll be rooting for him to succeed if he is the Giants head coach, but his resume is not all that impressive without Josh Allen.
Daboll  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 2:26 pm : link
2009 offense: worst in the league in yards, 4th worst in points with the Browns

2010: 4th worst in yards; 2nd worst in points with the Browns

2011: 11th worst in yards; 13th worst in points with the Dolphins

2012: 9th worst in yards; worst in points with the Chiefs

I'm inclined to think the chances are greater that the Giants don't have a top 5 QB than those that they do. Statistics would back me up on this one.

Flores won games with below avg. QB play, horrendous OL play, and medicore RBs.

So Daboll both gets blame for not getting more from 5 QBs  
Heisenberg : 1/21/2022 2:43 pm : link
that are truly terrible. He's totally responsible for how bad those offenses are. On the flip side, Buffalo's current success is all Josh Allen despite most evaluators noting that Allen was pretty raw coming out of college.

Hey man, as long as you're being fair about things, lol.

Look, there's always questions about who'd be a good head coach and good coordinators aren't always good HC. But to somehow chalk up Daboll as a bad offensive coach who's been propped up by Josh Allen is just not a fair reading of evidence.
RE: So Daboll both gets blame for not getting more from 5 QBs  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 2:52 pm : link
In comment 15565136 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
that are truly terrible. He's totally responsible for how bad those offenses are. On the flip side, Buffalo's current success is all Josh Allen despite most evaluators noting that Allen was pretty raw coming out of college.

Hey man, as long as you're being fair about things, lol.

Look, there's always questions about who'd be a good head coach and good coordinators aren't always good HC. But to somehow chalk up Daboll as a bad offensive coach who's been propped up by Josh Allen is just not a fair reading of evidence.


Speaking of fair reading of evidence, I never once said he was fully responsible for how bad the previous offenses at his prior three jobs were. Nor did I ever call him a "bad offensive coach."

I said that Daboll has not had success as an OC without Josh Allen. I provided statistics to back it up. I also said he has never had success as head coach. He has never been a head coach. Anywhere. The Giants will not have Josh Allen, and the chances are slim they will have a QB close to his talent anytime soon.

Could he be a good coach with the Giants? Sure. But if the Bills had drafted Josh Rosen instead of Josh Allen, Daboll's name would never be in the running. And no, I don't think he's some kind of QB guru that would have turned Rosen into a star too.

RE: also Doug Pederson  
JFIB : 1/21/2022 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15564745 Rory said:
Quote:
is a name I wish they would consider.


I agree with this. The guy has had some success and I'm shocked there is not more buzz about him.
RE: RE: also Doug Pederson  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15565170 JFIB said:
Quote:
In comment 15564745 Rory said:


Quote:


is a name I wish they would consider.



I agree with this. The guy has had some success and I'm shocked there is not more buzz about him.


Pederson would be excellent. I don't know how you could not be impressed by a guy who won a QB against Belichick/Brady with a backup QB
RE: Would you hire this guy?  
compton : 1/21/2022 3:12 pm : link
In comment 15564748 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
Would you hire this guy to be your HC with this resume?

24-25 record in 3 seasons
Highest offensive rank: 15th (2020)
Strength of Schedule going into 2021: .471 (T-27th)
Strength of Schedule going into 2022: .481 (22nd)


If you haven’t guessed, this is Flores resume as HC. Just sayin’


That's why he fired 3 offensive coordinators. And you conveniently left out 9 -7 (2020), and 9-8 (2021). The man got chicken salad out of chicken shit. He is a good coach.
RE: RE: So Daboll both gets blame for not getting more from 5 QBs  
Heisenberg : 1/21/2022 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15565156 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15565136 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


that are truly terrible. He's totally responsible for how bad those offenses are. On the flip side, Buffalo's current success is all Josh Allen despite most evaluators noting that Allen was pretty raw coming out of college.

Hey man, as long as you're being fair about things, lol.

Look, there's always questions about who'd be a good head coach and good coordinators aren't always good HC. But to somehow chalk up Daboll as a bad offensive coach who's been propped up by Josh Allen is just not a fair reading of evidence.



Speaking of fair reading of evidence, I never once said he was fully responsible for how bad the previous offenses at his prior three jobs were. Nor did I ever call him a "bad offensive coach."

I said that Daboll has not had success as an OC without Josh Allen. I provided statistics to back it up. I also said he has never had success as head coach. He has never been a head coach. Anywhere. The Giants will not have Josh Allen, and the chances are slim they will have a QB close to his talent anytime soon.

Could he be a good coach with the Giants? Sure. But if the Bills had drafted Josh Rosen instead of Josh Allen, Daboll's name would never be in the running. And no, I don't think he's some kind of QB guru that would have turned Rosen into a star too.


Heh, you provided statistics but left out the names of the QBs that were available. It's intellectually dishonest to leave that context out for his time with the Browns, Fins and Chiefs but then disregard the success he's had developing Allen.

The context for both his success and lack of success matters. And yes, the Giants aren't getting Allen anytime soon. But even fucked up Daniel Jones is better than the shitty QBs who helped generate the statistics you cited - that's how bad a QB situation that was for those teams.

I'm gonna drop this anyway. I probably prefer Flores, tbh (assuming the FO is comfortable with him getting run out of town coming off a winning season). I just thought your anti Daboll argument was pretty weak. If the Giants decide on Daboll, I won't be unhappy.
RE: Would you hire this guy?  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15564748 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
Would you hire this guy to be your HC with this resume?

24-25 record in 3 seasons
Highest offensive rank: 15th (2020)
Strength of Schedule going into 2021: .471 (T-27th)
Strength of Schedule going into 2022: .481 (22nd)


If you haven’t guessed, this is Flores resume as HC. Just sayin’


He won 5 games in a season where the Dolphins were tanking and traded away a ton of good players. Then 2 straight winning seasons with below avg QB play, horrid OL play, and medicore RBs.
RE: RE: RE: So Daboll both gets blame for not getting more from 5 QBs  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15565243 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 15565156 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15565136 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


that are truly terrible. He's totally responsible for how bad those offenses are. On the flip side, Buffalo's current success is all Josh Allen despite most evaluators noting that Allen was pretty raw coming out of college.

Hey man, as long as you're being fair about things, lol.

Look, there's always questions about who'd be a good head coach and good coordinators aren't always good HC. But to somehow chalk up Daboll as a bad offensive coach who's been propped up by Josh Allen is just not a fair reading of evidence.



Speaking of fair reading of evidence, I never once said he was fully responsible for how bad the previous offenses at his prior three jobs were. Nor did I ever call him a "bad offensive coach."

I said that Daboll has not had success as an OC without Josh Allen. I provided statistics to back it up. I also said he has never had success as head coach. He has never been a head coach. Anywhere. The Giants will not have Josh Allen, and the chances are slim they will have a QB close to his talent anytime soon.

Could he be a good coach with the Giants? Sure. But if the Bills had drafted Josh Rosen instead of Josh Allen, Daboll's name would never be in the running. And no, I don't think he's some kind of QB guru that would have turned Rosen into a star too.




Heh, you provided statistics but left out the names of the QBs that were available. It's intellectually dishonest to leave that context out for his time with the Browns, Fins and Chiefs but then disregard the success he's had developing Allen.

The context for both his success and lack of success matters. And yes, the Giants aren't getting Allen anytime soon. But even fucked up Daniel Jones is better than the shitty QBs who helped generate the statistics you cited - that's how bad a QB situation that was for those teams.

I'm gonna drop this anyway. I probably prefer Flores, tbh (assuming the FO is comfortable with him getting run out of town coming off a winning season). I just thought your anti Daboll argument was pretty weak. If the Giants decide on Daboll, I won't be unhappy.


I'm not anti-Daboll. I'm pro-Giants. And I think the Giants are a lot closer to the prior 3 teams Daboll was OC for than the Bills, particularly in QB talent.

Thus, I'd look more at a Flores, who has two straight winning seasons with below average QB play and a terrible OL. Heck, he won 5 games when the Dolphins front office was doing everything they could to lose. And I'd be more interested in a Pederson, who won a SB with a backup QB.

I am not anti-Daboll, but I look at a resume that is pretty mediocre, with the exception of Josh Allen, and I do have concerns as to how successful he will be with the Giants, who won't have such a talent. Sure, he deserves some credit developing Allen.

I'm not saying that Daboll will be a failure if the Giants sign him, but there are certainly things to be concerned about. If they do hire him, I hope my concerns were wrong. I hope he coaches Jones up and he becomes their franchise QB. I hope I feel like a giant idiot for ever having concerns about him.
RE: Daboll  
paesan98 : 1/21/2022 5:49 pm : link
In comment 15565067 KDavies said:
Quote:
2009 offense: worst in the league in yards, 4th worst in points with the Browns

2010: 4th worst in yards; 2nd worst in points with the Browns

2011: 11th worst in yards; 13th worst in points with the Dolphins

2012: 9th worst in yards; worst in points with the Chiefs

I'm inclined to think the chances are greater that the Giants don't have a top 5 QB than those that they do. Statistics would back me up on this one.

Flores won games with below avg. QB play, horrendous OL play, and medicore RBs.


Anyone can selectively choose the stats the need to prop up their argument. What about since 2012?
I have real reservations about Flores  
BigBlueCane : 1/21/2022 5:58 pm : link
possibly being more of an activist off the field.

Daboll or Ryans please.
RE: RE: Daboll  
KDavies : 1/21/2022 6:47 pm : link
In comment 15565585 paesan98 said:
Quote:
In comment 15565067 KDavies said:


Quote:


2009 offense: worst in the league in yards, 4th worst in points with the Browns

2010: 4th worst in yards; 2nd worst in points with the Browns

2011: 11th worst in yards; 13th worst in points with the Dolphins

2012: 9th worst in yards; worst in points with the Chiefs

I'm inclined to think the chances are greater that the Giants don't have a top 5 QB than those that they do. Statistics would back me up on this one.

Flores won games with below avg. QB play, horrendous OL play, and medicore RBs.




Anyone can selectively choose the stats the need to prop up their argument. What about since 2012?


How am I selectively choosing stats? Since 2012, he was TE coach with the Pats for three years, OC at Alabama for a year (not too hard to have a good offense there), and with the Bills as OC with Allen.

Again, I took all of his stats as an NFL OC without Allen. They are not good. He didn’t have good QBs. When he had Allen, he has a really good offense. To me that’s a coach that performs to expectations, and not necessarily exceeds them. I do wish he had a better record to be judged on other than the two extremes of bad QBs and an MVP candidate.

I don’t have an argument or an agenda. I have concerns about hiring an OC who has only succeeded in the NFL with an all pro at QB. If the Giants had very good QB, I wouldn’t have those concerns. My only agenda is wanting the Giants to get the best coach possible. I have seen Flores and Peterson exceed expectations as head coaches. I have seen in Daboll’s career him meeting expectations as OC.

How much credit does Daboll deserve for developing Allen? And can he do the same with Daniel Jones and/or the next QB for the Giants should he get ghe job? I don’t know the answer to those. But I don’t see any other QBs that he has developed. If there were multiple QBs, it would be easier to give him credit as a QB guru.
All I am going on is Flores' track record as a coach.  
St. Jimmy : 1/21/2022 7:09 pm : link
I thought the Dolphins overachieved until this year. The team was ruined on offense for the early part of the season. They turned it around though.

Daboll is exciting because Buffalo is good. You are rolling the dice though with a coordinator. Could be Bill Walsh could be Shurmur.
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