I think we need to temper our expectations...

I want to see Thomas take another step, the young guys on D contribute, and see our first round draft picks flash serious talent. Add in a few competitive games against good teams and I'm fine. Hopefully the coach shows some creativity and innovativeness. Prefer to see some risks taken.

I don't care what the record is. I think it's a 2-3 year project.

I know you think you're rising above it, but in the end you're just the guy that posts shit like this:

Quote:

Don’t bother. Big Blue '56 : 2:26 pm : link : reply Usuals in 3-2-1…

In comment 15565542 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I know you think you're rising above it, but in the end you're just the guy that posts shit like this: Quote: Don’t bother. Big Blue '56 : 2:26 pm : link : reply Usuals in 3-2-1…

Last response to you. I should have been more specific, as I love to dig bw (who is a dear friend offline).I should have left out the usuals. My bad. I should have said bw in 3-2-1…I will also abstain from any allusion to the “usuals.”

As long as a plan is in place. Better than being shitty with no plan like the last 4 years.

In comment 15565522 dpinzow said:

Quote:

I wonder whether the team was really listening to Judge all along for most of the season. I believe certain players tuned him out right away

Probably.

And on the QB.

In comment 15565531 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I want to see Thomas take another step, the young guys on D contribute, and see our first round draft picks flash serious talent. Add in a few competitive games against good teams and I'm fine. Hopefully the coach shows some creativity and innovativeness. Prefer to see some risks taken. I don't care what the record is. I think it's a 2-3 year project.

Good and reasoned post. Agree. Not sure how long it might take given the quick turnaround league it has been, but it could take that long

In comment 15565549 Sean said:

Quote:

As long as a plan is in place. Better than being shitty with no plan like the last 4 years.

This, exactly.

for the foreseeable future. We still have garbage ownership and I don't give two shits who was hired as GM. Win games and that's that.

his rookie year, expectations are already rock bottom

In comment 15565526 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Well, djm is right about the cap as an overall argument. Teams can always manipulate the cap and sign whoever they want and “make the cap work.” But when you spend that way and then the team sucks, it’s an actual problem. I would say that in terms of the actual *structure* of our cap right now, it’s not horrible. But the actual players are the problem. We don’t have a shitload of high priced awful players that we either won’t be able to move or are on long term deals that are going to be a huge drag. The actual future cap health looks somewhat solid right now. But that’s also because we aren’t good.

Posters should at least try to argue/debate with logic. Maybe they don't succeed but at least try.

Nobody should tout the Giant can fit anybody under cap if their "logic" stretches to signing questionable players to questionable contracts just so they have to restructure other questionable existing contracts. That's like actually predicting the Giants should just go ahead and make a bad decision so long as they make the bad decision work.

A guy named Britt on this site used to do that too...predicting the Giants would keep paying and starting a deteriorating Eli Manning despite it being a bad illogical decision because he couldn't see it objectively...

In comment 15565562 ron mexico said:

Quote:

his rookie year, expectations are already rock bottom

I thought we had something great in Judge. The 6 wins meant nothing to me, but where I THOUGHT we were headed meant a lot..

I am very disappointed to be so far off on Judge. Not for ego sake, but for what I thought we had in him moving forward

In comment 15565562 ron mexico said:

Quote:

his rookie year, expectations are already rock bottom

We'll always have Seattle...

:-(

In comment 15565421 Sammo85 said:

Quote:

folks are level-headed about current situation and new regime needing a year to really coalesce top to bottom. It's a clean slate, new ship sailing here from get go with GM/HC. I think folks might be surprised as to how quickly some decisions or changes may be made on roster and players. NFL is like that nowadays. But otherwise, expectations are tepid beyond simply asking for some competitive football and development of young talent. 2023 is where hopefully bigger decisions are made and putting in right philosophy and building blocks forward (getting a new QB, being rid of Barkley, Jones, Golladay, and some of the declining vets on D).

lol have you been on a game thread before, they are most certainly not.

#notmygiantsfan

In comment 15565519 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15565494 Mike from Ohio said Right about what? You keep saying this and I’d like to know right about what? 1-We ALL knew about the OL, but no one knew that Gates and Lemieux would be gone before the season started 2-None of us knew that the QB of our defense, a key cog, Martinez,would also be lost before the season started. 3-We all knew that in all likelihood Barkley might take more than a year to get back to himself. We were hoping that was not the case. You do realize that Barkley’s normal conditioning and prep for the season had to be scrapped in favor of nothing but rehab, yes? 4-Despite what BBIers were calling the worst OL in football, the team with the worst or close to the worst talent in football, somehow Jones was able to help the team go 4-7 (which easily could have been reversed if the D didn’t falter at the end. How TF did that happen with arguably the worst personnel in football? 5-Golladay was injured on and off all year and then had no QB to throw him the ball for the final 6 games 6-Toney had covid keep him out and other assorted injuries throughout the season, but when he was on the field, he was often electric. I expect big things moving forward. So tell me who was right? That is who knew what we all didn’t know?

Respectfully, I'm incredibly relieved the front office did not share this rosy outlook.

This is not a roster and coaching staff that could have "reversed the record" as you put it. If anyone in power felt that way, we aren't celebrating a new GM hire today and waiting for a new head coach.

If success as a team hinged on 1 linebacker going out, the defense is a poorly constructed house of cards. (And, it turns out, it is)The Giants alleged to be a 3-4 defense which requires 4 starting linebackers. They had 1 player worthy to start at the position for week 1. We knew all season they had no pass rush capability. That never manifested itself all season.

So if we recognize the defense was flawed and lacking depth and talent at key positions and roles, why would we ever think they were equipped to do much of anything?

Shane Lemieux was not a hero in waiting. They would have had questionable at best OL if Gates and he had played. The right side of the OL was healthy and got caved in all season because Hernandez and Solder are bad football players. Even if gates and lemieux stayed healthy, the entire right side of the line would have been an obvious sieve.

The team was never really outfit to do anything.

They expected precious little from Barkely and Jones, two guys who are oft injured and unproductive. That was a correct assessment.

There were posters who said it would be a big year for Jones now that he had Barkely back, we added Golladay and Rudolph. he would take the same step that Josh Allen took in year 3. Of course he didn't.

Gates and Lemiuex getting hurt sucked, but this line was bad even with them. We had an overpaid RT who can't play anymore backed up by a 3rd round pick who had not shown much.

But here we still had people pretending the team was on the right path. Gettleman was doing well and the last couple of drafts were strong. Golladay was a strong get. Jones would take the next step.

All of those things were dead wrong, and people who kept getting upset and angry when challenged are the same people who disappeared rather than admit the people who saw this all were correct. It's a really bad look.

In comment 15565614 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

They expected precious little from Barkely and Jones, two guys who are oft injured and unproductive. That was a correct assessment. There were posters who said it would be a big year for Jones now that he had Barkely back, we added Golladay and Rudolph. he would take the same step that Josh Allen took in year 3. Of course he didn't. Gates and Lemiuex getting hurt sucked, but this line was bad even with them. We had an overpaid RT who can't play anymore backed up by a 3rd round pick who had not shown much. But here we still had people pretending the team was on the right path. Gettleman was doing well and the last couple of drafts were strong. Golladay was a strong get. Jones would take the next step. All of those things were dead wrong, and people who kept getting upset and angry when challenged are the same people who disappeared rather than admit the people who saw this all were correct. It's a really bad look.

Jones missed the last 6 games..He was 4-7 (should have been better if the D didn’t cave) with arguably the worst personnel/OL in football..My point is, he still may be deemed an incomplete by the new regime. I have no idea which way they’ll lean. They may go with him in year 4 without picking up his 5th year option and let him play for the 8 million. If he excels, you re-sign him. If he sucks, you’ve really lost nothing. They might decide they don’t want to move forward at all and pick up a vet and draft one for this coming season.

showing up to the OTAs matter, that everybody participate in all voluntary practice sessions, and that starters be ready to and play a decent amount of time in actual preseason games.

Get ready to play actual football, in body and mind, earlier versus later...

Shane Lemieux drew serious criticism his rookie year and frankly looked like he didn’t belong in the NFL in pass protection. Becoming a reliable, NFL average guard would have been a big step up for him. Matt Skura was a very equal level replacement.

Will Hernandez, Nate Solder, and Matt Peart all had massive question marks the last time they had been on the field. Those three players consistently struggling was no surprise.

The material loss on the line was Gates. The Giants lost their second best lineman. That’s real and hurt, but it wasn’t the difference between competence and what they dragged out there.

I think we should all see the writing on the wall. It might not be the worst thing. Giving big contracts to Barkley and Jones would be the worst outcome from next year. I'll settle for a team that is competitive. That said, the Giants will have that fourth place schedule which serves the Eagles so well. How about a nice run to competing for the 7th playoff spot?

But, I do expect an improvement. That doesn't mean just 5 wins. That means we have a team that looks like it belongs on the field with another pro team on any given Sunday.

But does anybody actually have high expectations for next season?

But I don’t necessarily think that optimism is pointed at a high win total next year. I’m optimistic because for the first time in 4 years we may not be drawing stone dead.

In comment 15565489 bigbluehoya said:

Quote:

if someone wants to make a point that you can't simply open up spotrac and conclude that they have a bad situation because it currently shows a low amount of cap space, I totally get that. You can't glean anything from that cursory of an analysis, and there certainly are avenues (in general) to making numbers works. But do yourself a favor -- look at the details. It isn't pretty. The last 4 years of "i think we can straighten this thing out on a fly" were effected by kicking the can down the road on restructures and locking themselves into free agent deals that have very significant guaranteed money in 22 and 23. There aren't a lot of contracts that jump off the page as easy to move on from that free up significant dollars. There simply aren't. And those that are just so happen to be the better players on the roster. There's a lot of wood to chop, and if the more quickly they want to clean up the numbers, the more it may require trading away some of the actually valuable contracts on the books.

Meanwhile we've got 51 players under contract next year, one of the highest numbers in the league, but 2023 right not has us have decent space, and only 8 players under contract for 2024, which has us with 3rd most space for 2024.

Roll with mostly what we have next year, and it clears itself up after that with little to no dead money. Far as dead money goes, we are close to the bottom of the league next year, we don't look bad at all going forward after next year. If we chop a lot of guys to free space, that changes.
Right now 2023 and 2024 look good. Next year is fucked, we should stand pat, let him assess, nail the drat and bring it a couple of vet OL to supplement the draft, get the OL right and move forward from there in 2023.

most of the teams in the NFL are at the same talent level. very few a cut above, very few below. Brian Flores won 5 games with a team of practice squaders (literally) a few years ago that everyone thought would win 0. he picked up fitz off the trash heap and the few games Josh Rosen played were almost as bad as the Fromm/Glennon era.

In the combined Pat Shurmur years the team averaged 23 ppg (allowed 27)
In the combined Joe Judge years the team gave up 23 ppg (scored 16)

unlike those 2 regimes lets try to get competent coordinators on both sides of the ball. and a head coach that doesn't break surrender index records on a weekly basis.

I remember when GY was hired and he brought in Ray Perkins. I was just so excited and hopeful that's all. Times are different for sure I just hope Schoen can right the ship. Perfectly willing to be patient

In comment 15565635 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15565614 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: They expected precious little from Barkely and Jones, two guys who are oft injured and unproductive. That was a correct assessment. There were posters who said it would be a big year for Jones now that he had Barkely back, we added Golladay and Rudolph. he would take the same step that Josh Allen took in year 3. Of course he didn't. Gates and Lemiuex getting hurt sucked, but this line was bad even with them. We had an overpaid RT who can't play anymore backed up by a 3rd round pick who had not shown much. But here we still had people pretending the team was on the right path. Gettleman was doing well and the last couple of drafts were strong. Golladay was a strong get. Jones would take the next step. All of those things were dead wrong, and people who kept getting upset and angry when challenged are the same people who disappeared rather than admit the people who saw this all were correct. It's a really bad look. Jones missed the last 6 games..He was 4-7 (should have been better if the D didn’t cave) with arguably the worst personnel/OL in football..My point is, he still may be deemed an incomplete by the new regime. I have no idea which way they’ll lean. They may go with him in year 4 without picking up his 5th year option and let him play for the 8 million. If he excels, you re-sign him. If he sucks, you’ve really lost nothing. They might decide they don’t want to move forward at all and pick up a vet and draft one for this coming season.

4-7, and in those games they hit 20 points only 5 times, and never hit 30. 10 TDs and 7 INTs in those games. But yeah, the defense was costing them games.

Jones is likely here next year, but I would be really concerned if anyone is even considering picking up the 5th year option on Jones.

Well aware he’s eating up a lot of space. I’d like to see guys like him contribute more in 2022.

Gotta nail the drafts no matter what.

when he had to, with his legs as well..He had no business even going 4-7 with that OL and no real running game..

I am not going to argue this with any expended energy as we have always been at polar opposites with regards to Jones. No one knows how he would have fared the last 6 games, though with the scrubs on the OL, I would concede not all that well..

No one is right or wrong on DJ until the GZm and new HC decide his fate which we probably won’t know until the end of next season.

I have no problem bringing in competition for DJ..I’m just leery about expending another high pick on a QB..

In comment 15565513 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15565495 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: I remember it. You were right...they signed a whole mess of underperforming players during free agency to bad contracts and somehow fit it into the cap. And then started restructuring contracts to old underperforming guys that really shouldn't even be on the roster next year to fit the new underperforming guys under the cap. And then started restructuring contracts to the new underperforming guys that they just gave new contracts to because they ran out of contracts to touch from the old underperforming guys. And then had to keep playing games towards the endof the season with less than a normal roster because they ran out of money and contracts to restructure. All to win 4 games. But you nailed it. Good stuff... Great post. djm is a real pisser.

Yea except i never said the moves paid off I simply said they made moves when this entire board said they couldn’t. Guess that’s hard for some to understand.

Trevor Lawrence stunk up his rookie year. This “can’t miss” QB didn’t come close to the rookie year DJ had. Am I saying DJ is tge better prospect? Hell no, but circumstances matter, not always stats..

And further, the great TL will never be the QB that Burrow is, imv..

There is a chance they do a “quiet tank” in 2022. Doesn’t mean anyone will say it out loud and the team will still be working hard but the whole objective of the team will shift to youth and player development. They’ll try to win but realistically won’t be able to. Reward: a very high pick in a year with a clearly strong draft class.

We’ll know a lot more by April.

In comment 15565958 cosmicj said:

Quote:

There is a chance they do a “quiet tank” in 2022. Doesn’t mean anyone will say it out loud and the team will still be working hard but the whole objective of the team will shift to youth and player development. They’ll try to win but realistically won’t be able to. Reward: a very high pick in a year with a clearly strong draft class. We’ll know a lot more by April.

With a new GM? New HC? No way, imv

In comment 15565944 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

when he had to, with his legs as well..He had no business even going 4-7 with that OL and no real running game.. I am not going to argue this with any expended energy as we have always been at polar opposites with regards to Jones. No one knows how he would have fared the last 6 games, though with the scrubs on the OL, I would concede not all that well.. No one is right or wrong on DJ until the GZm and new HC decide his fate which we probably won’t know until the end of next season. I have no problem bringing in competition for DJ..I’m just leery about expending another high pick on a QB..

Not trying to convince you on Jones. I think you have to at least bring in someone to compete for the job. He has done nothing IMV to warrant coming in as the presumed starter. After three years we are still waiting to catch more than the faintest glimpse of what he was drafted to be.

The starting QB has to earn the spot and I can’t make an argument that Jones has.

In comment 15565798 Red Right Hand said:

Quote:

Far as dead money goes, we are close to the bottom of the league next year, we don't look bad at all going forward after next year. If we chop a lot of guys to free space, that changes.

Accruing dead money isn’t always a problem. It’s often the least bad outcome from a bad decision.

Of course the best outcome is the player living up to his deal, but you should never continue paying a guy more over sunk costs.

The Giants will in all likelihood accrue a good chunk of dead money after cutting Shepard, Rudolph, Dixon, and potentially Ryan and Martinez as well.

bad team and bad coach...but he has some talent.

Look for a nice pickup in his game production next season. He’s figuring it out...

In comment 15565967 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15565944 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: when he had to, with his legs as well..He had no business even going 4-7 with that OL and no real running game.. I am not going to argue this with any expended energy as we have always been at polar opposites with regards to Jones. No one knows how he would have fared the last 6 games, though with the scrubs on the OL, I would concede not all that well.. No one is right or wrong on DJ until the GZm and new HC decide his fate which we probably won’t know until the end of next season. I have no problem bringing in competition for DJ..I’m just leery about expending another high pick on a QB.. Not trying to convince you on Jones. I think you have to at least bring in someone to compete for the job. He has done nothing IMV to warrant coming in as the presumed starter. After three years we are still waiting to catch more than the faintest glimpse of what he was drafted to be. The starting QB has to earn the spot and I can’t make an argument that Jones has.

Ok, that’s fair

In comment 15565965 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15565958 cosmicj said: Quote: There is a chance they do a “quiet tank” in 2022. Doesn’t mean anyone will say it out loud and the team will still be working hard but the whole objective of the team will shift to youth and player development. They’ll try to win but realistically won’t be able to. Reward: a very high pick in a year with a clearly strong draft class. We’ll know a lot more by April. With a new GM? New HC? No way, imv

We will be able to tell if Schoen is aggressive in disposing of vets with big contracts. Golladay and Bradberry - neither of whom will be on the team for our next playoff game - are the names I’m watching.

Maybe “youth movement” is a better term than “quiet tank.”

The Giants have been like that old car that needs to be junked but just keeps getting temporary fixes to keep it running just a little longer. Eventually it's going to sputter and die on the freeway and cost more than it is worth to fix it.

I've had enough with high priced stopgaps (Solder! Golladay!) and just want them to cut salary and stay the hell out of free agency so that they can rebuild this roster. If that means watching a bunch of young but talented players go 4-13 next season then that's a hell of a lot better than watching a bunch of aging veterans and journeymen go 4-13 again.

In comment 15565519 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

Right about what? You keep saying this and I’d like to know right about what? 1-We ALL knew about the OL, but no one knew that Gates and Lemieux would be gone before the season started 2-None of us knew that the QB of our defense, a key cog, Martinez,would also be lost before the season started. 3-We all knew that in all likelihood Barkley might take more than a year to get back to himself. We were hoping that was not the case. You do realize that Barkley’s normal conditioning and prep for the season had to be scrapped in favor of nothing but rehab, yes? 4-Despite what BBIers were calling the worst OL in football, the team with the worst or close to the worst talent in football, somehow Jones was able to help the team go 4-7 (which easily could have been reversed if the D didn’t falter at the end. How TF did that happen with arguably the worst personnel in football? 5-Golladay was injured on and off all year and then had no QB to throw him the ball for the final 6 games 6-Toney had covid keep him out and other assorted injuries throughout the season, but when he was on the field, he was often electric. I expect big things moving forward. So tell me who was right? That is who knew what we all didn’t know?

JFC. In week 1, with a pretty healthy team, the Giants couldn’t keep up with a very average Denver team.

Football is a violent sport. And the teams we played had injuries, too.

In comment 15565979 cosmicj said:

Quote:

In comment 15565965 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 15565958 cosmicj said: Quote: There is a chance they do a “quiet tank” in 2022. Doesn’t mean anyone will say it out loud and the team will still be working hard but the whole objective of the team will shift to youth and player development. They’ll try to win but realistically won’t be able to. Reward: a very high pick in a year with a clearly strong draft class. We’ll know a lot more by April. With a new GM? New HC? No way, imv We will be able to tell if Schoen is aggressive in disposing of vets with big contracts. Golladay and Bradberry - neither of whom will be on the team for our next playoff game - are the names I’m watching. Maybe “youth movement” is a better term than “quiet tank.”

Yeah, youth movement sounds good..:)

Lol. Nah. Fuck this. You're hired to win. Other teams turn it around quickly with a GM or a head coaching change.

I've been hearing this for 10 years how it's going to take some time to see some changes ....

Well? I'm still waiting. Last time the Giants won a playoff game my cousin (who is going to college in 8 months) was 7 years old.

Cut the deadweight and bring in some good players. Duh.

Than the team level. There are a lot of holes on this team that can’t all be addressed in one off season.

I want to see the young guys improve and the draft picks look like they belong. On a broader level I’d like to see a team that doesn’t constantly look confused, can get lined up correctly, and doesn’t waste time outs because they don’t seem organized at all.

I don’t expect them to hit .500 but if I see those things I will feel like things are turning around.

In comment 15565986 cosmicj said:

Quote:

In comment 15565519 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: Right about what? You keep saying this and I’d like to know right about what? 1-We ALL knew about the OL, but no one knew that Gates and Lemieux would be gone before the season started 2-None of us knew that the QB of our defense, a key cog, Martinez,would also be lost before the season started. 3-We all knew that in all likelihood Barkley might take more than a year to get back to himself. We were hoping that was not the case. You do realize that Barkley’s normal conditioning and prep for the season had to be scrapped in favor of nothing but rehab, yes? 4-Despite what BBIers were calling the worst OL in football, the team with the worst or close to the worst talent in football, somehow Jones was able to help the team go 4-7 (which easily could have been reversed if the D didn’t falter at the end. How TF did that happen with arguably the worst personnel in football? 5-Golladay was injured on and off all year and then had no QB to throw him the ball for the final 6 games 6-Toney had covid keep him out and other assorted injuries throughout the season, but when he was on the field, he was often electric. I expect big things moving forward. So tell me who was right? That is who knew what we all didn’t know? JFC. In week 1, with a pretty healthy team, the Giants couldn’t keep up with a very average Denver team. Football is a violent sport. And the teams we played had injuries, too.

But that was one game. We stunk. Judge and co., for whatever reason didn’t have us prepared in a game that featured a team we should have opened with a win against..I don’t believe that many other teams had cluster injuries like we had for an entire year..

that 2021 was a clusterfuck on many levels.

I’m expecting a 2-4 win team next season, but it won’t be as painful as 2021.

Some of it was very predictable based on how poorly the team was constructed.

so while you guys are on (Cos and Mike), Flores or Duboll for your preference? Or, someone else?

We'd know, because he would have shown something excellent in 37 career starts over 3 years. He would have demonstrated the ability to carry his weight with individual performance even if the team around him wasnt good enough to win with.

You know when a good quarterback is in a bad situation because all of you have seen what it looks like with the Giants and around the league. I dont know why we're still looking at this with clouded vision.

Eli, a good but no longer excellent QB was in a bad situation. a bad OL for the last 5 years of his career and could still rally the team for points and made plays and dragged the subpar roster around him to competitive losses. He was never consistently inept in the red zone, and never thoughtless enough to be reckless with his body knowing his own importance to the team.

Any QB who is actually worth it, you know when you see it. You don't have to ask the question of "do you pick up the option or give him a 5th year" because he answers that question for you.

The window people expect for Jones is closing fast. They are not going to be able to plug every numerous hole in the OL and surround him with the firepower he might need to be carried to franchise QB production in this one offseason. He has 1/5th of an OL, will be learning a new offense, and injury prone WRs that miss games.

I expect this team to compete next year. Period. The shitty fucking Eagles made the playoffs this year. So did Pittsburgh. Vikings, skins, saints anf falcons were alive late.

Fuck that

There is some players on the team. The defense should be solid with good coaching.
Draft well. Coach well. I expect the team to compete. And anyone else that doesn’t let’s see what tune you sing September, and december.

The league is built on parity and the division stinks. Im not saying a deep run but not f they are not in the mix week 16, 17 I will be disappointed

In comment 15566156 dancing blue bear said:

Quote:

I expect this team to compete next year. Period. The shitty fucking Eagles made the playoffs this year. So did Pittsburgh. Vikings, skins, saints anf falcons were alive late. Fuck that There is some players on the team. The defense should be solid with good coaching. Draft well. Coach well. I expect the team to compete. And anyone else that doesn’t let’s see what tune you sing September, and december. The league is built on parity and the division stinks. Im not saying a deep run but not f they are not in the mix week 16, 17 I will be disappointed

Yes. Yes.