for this coming season. Lets remember this GM is dealing with a shitty cap situation, a QB issue, and many holes to fill. More gaping holes than draft picks and our available cap dollars can fill.
We tend to get too excited and have lofty expectations after significant changes like this.
There is a long way to go. We still have to see who our coaches are going to be and no idea what the roster will look like. That said.. finishing at .500 next season would be an accomplishment
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In comment 15565371 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565365 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Team is going to suck this fall.
That’s what they say now, but WHEN/IF it happens watch the board go nuts
The only people who go nuts when this team has a bad season are the ones who thought they would be good for some reason. 90% of the board expect them to be bad and they are correct.
Next season is a rebuilding season. The goal is to finally make progress after going backwards for 4 years, not to make the playoffs.
If you expect them to be BAD, then why complain when they are? All the complaints lodged at the team were expected, so again, why complain?
We expect them to be bad and we complain about it because the reasons they are bad were obvious and avoidable. We pointed out the bad decisions in real time, often in advance of them occuring.
You want to try to be BBI's Minister of Propaganda and tell people what they should talk about, have at it. Don't expect people to listen, though.
For someone that doesn't like complaining you sure do like to complain.
The Giants have sucked for a decade. People are going to be pissed. Get the fuck over it. Or don't.
But do yourself a favor -- look at the details. It isn't pretty. The last 4 years of "i think we can straighten this thing out on a fly" were effected by kicking the can down the road on restructures and locking themselves into free agent deals that have very significant guaranteed money in 22 and 23.
There aren't a lot of contracts that jump off the page as easy to move on from that free up significant dollars. There simply aren't. And those that are just so happen to be the better players on the roster.
There's a lot of wood to chop, and if the more quickly they want to clean up the numbers, the more it may require trading away some of the actually valuable contracts on the books.
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In comment 15565438 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565431 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15565371 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565365 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Team is going to suck this fall.
That’s what they say now, but WHEN/IF it happens watch the board go nuts
The only people who go nuts when this team has a bad season are the ones who thought they would be good for some reason. 90% of the board expect them to be bad and they are correct.
Next season is a rebuilding season. The goal is to finally make progress after going backwards for 4 years, not to make the playoffs.
If you expect them to be BAD, then why complain when they are? All the complaints lodged at the team were expected, so again, why complain?
I'm not sure who you are saying was complaining about the team being bad. People complained the management was bad and needed to be changed. Finally it was.
I can't think of literally a single poster complaining because the team was underperforming what was expected of them. The problem is nothing was expected of them.
Seriously, you can’t think of a single poster who knocked the team? Just management? C’mon, really?
They were on Thomas’ case early, the OL constantly, Engram, our punter, Barkley despite trying to get back to himself, Golladay, Toney, Jones of course, etc., etc.
The people whose expectations were delusional are mostly gone now. The ones who all predicted 10-6 and a couple of playoff game wins. The same ones who kept telling us what a great job Gettleman was doing and have faith and stop being so negative.
It's ok to be wrong about the team, but they went out of their way to tell everyone else they were debbie downers. Then when it was clear even to them that they were dead wrong, the all ran away rather than acknowledging what everyone else can see.
You seem to want to keep taking shots at the people who were right about this team like they are a lunatic fringe. I don't understand that
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In comment 15565390 djm said:
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sorry I don't wanna hear about the cap. Build a fucking team. Not asking to spend like drunken sailors this spring, not even asking to spend at all, just build a team. Fuck this cap nonsense, it's a built in excuse.
Reminder, we had no money last year either. I was told that 100 times if I was told it once.
We aren't in cap hell. I've seen cap hell, this aint it.
I mean this with all sincerity - don't ever change. Your view of the cap is one of the more entertaining bits on this board.
Remember last year? No huh....ok
No one remembers the countless times this place has acted like it knew something about the cap only to see reality dictate something completely different. Last year was especially hilarious...
Hey, whatever works. Please feel free to twist my words into some other mess for you to parse and digest. We know that's the point of things on here.
I remember it. You were right...they signed a whole mess of underperforming players during free agency to bad contracts and somehow fit it into the cap.
And then started restructuring contracts to old underperforming guys that really shouldn't even be on the roster next year to fit the new underperforming guys under the cap.
And then started restructuring contracts to the new underperforming guys that they just gave new contracts to because they ran out of contracts to touch from the old underperforming guys.
And then had to keep playing games towards the endof the season with less than a normal roster because they ran out of money and contracts to restructure.
All to win 4 games. But you nailed it.
Good stuff...
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the Giants were capped out and awful. Prospects for 2022 are not much better, and carving out an additional $30M means fuck all if you're being genuine about it. That's the point, being awful and broke is a poor, shite look.
If you disagree, you're not getting the picture.
Just acknowledge one thing --everyone here was wrong this time last year. I was told there was no money where would it come from. And then there was money.
Fair enough?
PS, I said there would be some financial hamstring issues this year, but it won't be that bad. I am seeing it.
I think you're conveniently misremembering what the other side said. I'll agree the debate is boring and time to move along, but I still see a shite product.
It remains to be seen how true Mara will be to his word that the GM and HC will be making all player and coaching decisions ,hopefully meaning anyone in the Mara bloodline is just signing the check and taking care of the business operations. Hopefully Schoen gets to clean house and re-organize scouting and personnel as he sees fit as well, but we likely won't see that until after the draft.
For now, let's just enjoy the fact that it seems they're finally making some good decisions about the future of this team and stop the hand wringing.
I remember it. You were right...they signed a whole mess of underperforming players during free agency to bad contracts and somehow fit it into the cap.
And then started restructuring contracts to old underperforming guys that really shouldn't even be on the roster next year to fit the new underperforming guys under the cap.
And then started restructuring contracts to the new underperforming guys that they just gave new contracts to because they ran out of contracts to touch from the old underperforming guys.
And then had to keep playing games towards the endof the season with less than a normal roster because they ran out of money and contracts to restructure.
All to win 4 games. But you nailed it.
Good stuff...
Great post. djm is a real pisser.
I tend to have a similar opinion that the talent on the team isn't a bereft as some (*cough*Terps*cough*) imply in their posts saying we have one player worth keeping. That said, we need a good QB to start winning. The QB situation is the most important thing to watch this year and next imo.
The people whose expectations were delusional are mostly gone now. The ones who all predicted 10-6 and a couple of playoff game wins. The same ones who kept telling us what a great job Gettleman was doing and have faith and stop being so negative.
It's ok to be wrong about the team, but they went out of their way to tell everyone else they were debbie downers. Then when it was clear even to them that they were dead wrong, the all ran away rather than acknowledging what everyone else can see.
You seem to want to keep taking shots at the people who were right about this team like they are a lunatic fringe. I don't understand that
Right about what? You keep saying this and I’d like to know right about what?
1-We ALL knew about the OL, but no one knew that Gates and Lemieux would be gone before the season started
2-None of us knew that the QB of our defense, a key cog, Martinez,would also be lost before the season started.
3-We all knew that in all likelihood Barkley might take more than a year to get back to himself. We were hoping that was not the case. You do realize that Barkley’s normal conditioning and prep for the season had to be scrapped in favor of nothing but rehab, yes?
4-Despite what BBIers were calling the worst OL in football, the team with the worst or close to the worst talent in football, somehow Jones was able to help the team go 4-7 (which easily could have been reversed if the D didn’t falter at the end. How TF did that happen with arguably the worst personnel in football?
5-Golladay was injured on and off all year and then had no QB to throw him the ball for the final 6 games
6-Toney had covid keep him out and other assorted injuries throughout the season, but when he was on the field, he was often electric. I expect big things moving forward.
So tell me who was right? That is who knew what we all didn’t know?
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In comment 15565470 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15565438 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565431 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15565371 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565365 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Team is going to suck this fall.
That’s what they say now, but WHEN/IF it happens watch the board go nuts
The only people who go nuts when this team has a bad season are the ones who thought they would be good for some reason. 90% of the board expect them to be bad and they are correct.
Next season is a rebuilding season. The goal is to finally make progress after going backwards for 4 years, not to make the playoffs.
If you expect them to be BAD, then why complain when they are? All the complaints lodged at the team were expected, so again, why complain?
I'm not sure who you are saying was complaining about the team being bad. People complained the management was bad and needed to be changed. Finally it was.
I can't think of literally a single poster complaining because the team was underperforming what was expected of them. The problem is nothing was expected of them.
Seriously, you can’t think of a single poster who knocked the team? Just management? C’mon, really?
They were on Thomas’ case early, the OL constantly, Engram, our punter, Barkley despite trying to get back to himself, Golladay, Toney, Jones of course, etc., etc.
That's because those players all performed terribly.
What were people supposed to say that wouldn't offend your delicate sensibilities to the point where you've got to run off during the season?
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In comment 15565481 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565470 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15565438 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565431 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15565371 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15565365 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Team is going to suck this fall.
That’s what they say now, but WHEN/IF it happens watch the board go nuts
The only people who go nuts when this team has a bad season are the ones who thought they would be good for some reason. 90% of the board expect them to be bad and they are correct.
Next season is a rebuilding season. The goal is to finally make progress after going backwards for 4 years, not to make the playoffs.
If you expect them to be BAD, then why complain when they are? All the complaints lodged at the team were expected, so again, why complain?
I'm not sure who you are saying was complaining about the team being bad. People complained the management was bad and needed to be changed. Finally it was.
I can't think of literally a single poster complaining because the team was underperforming what was expected of them. The problem is nothing was expected of them.
Seriously, you can’t think of a single poster who knocked the team? Just management? C’mon, really?
They were on Thomas’ case early, the OL constantly, Engram, our punter, Barkley despite trying to get back to himself, Golladay, Toney, Jones of course, etc., etc.
That's because those players all performed terribly.
What were people supposed to say that wouldn't offend your delicate sensibilities to the point where you've got to run off during the season?
I have words but I’ll rise above it. I really do not want to discuss anything with you again. You know, sensibilities and all. I promise to refrain from referring to you or anything about you either directly or by inference..
I would say that in terms of the actual *structure* of our cap right now, it’s not horrible. But the actual players are the problem. We don’t have a shitload of high priced awful players that we either won’t be able to move or are on long term deals that are going to be a huge drag. The actual future cap health looks somewhat solid right now. But that’s also because we aren’t good.
I don't care what the record is. I think it's a 2-3 year project.
Big Blue '56 : 2:26 pm : link : reply
Usuals in 3-2-1…
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Don’t bother.
Big Blue '56 : 2:26 pm : link : reply
Usuals in 3-2-1…
Last response to you. I should have been more specific, as I love to dig bw (who is a dear friend offline).I should have left out the usuals. My bad. I should have said bw in 3-2-1…I will also abstain from any allusion to the “usuals.”
Probably.
And on the QB.
I don't care what the record is. I think it's a 2-3 year project.
Good and reasoned post. Agree. Not sure how long it might take given the quick turnaround league it has been, but it could take that long
I would say that in terms of the actual *structure* of our cap right now, it’s not horrible. But the actual players are the problem. We don’t have a shitload of high priced awful players that we either won’t be able to move or are on long term deals that are going to be a huge drag. The actual future cap health looks somewhat solid right now. But that’s also because we aren’t good.
Posters should at least try to argue/debate with logic. Maybe they don't succeed but at least try.
Nobody should tout the Giant can fit anybody under cap if their "logic" stretches to signing questionable players to questionable contracts just so they have to restructure other questionable existing contracts. That's like actually predicting the Giants should just go ahead and make a bad decision so long as they make the bad decision work.
A guy named Britt on this site used to do that too...predicting the Giants would keep paying and starting a deteriorating Eli Manning despite it being a bad illogical decision because he couldn't see it objectively...
I thought we had something great in Judge. The 6 wins meant nothing to me, but where I THOUGHT we were headed meant a lot..
I am very disappointed to be so far off on Judge. Not for ego sake, but for what I thought we had in him moving forward
We'll always have Seattle...
:-(
I think folks might be surprised as to how quickly some decisions or changes may be made on roster and players. NFL is like that nowadays.
But otherwise, expectations are tepid beyond simply asking for some competitive football and development of young talent.
2023 is where hopefully bigger decisions are made and putting in right philosophy and building blocks forward (getting a new QB, being rid of Barkley, Jones, Golladay, and some of the declining vets on D).
lol have you been on a game thread before, they are most certainly not.
#notmygiantsfan
Right about what? You keep saying this and I’d like to know right about what?
1-We ALL knew about the OL, but no one knew that Gates and Lemieux would be gone before the season started
2-None of us knew that the QB of our defense, a key cog, Martinez,would also be lost before the season started.
3-We all knew that in all likelihood Barkley might take more than a year to get back to himself. We were hoping that was not the case. You do realize that Barkley’s normal conditioning and prep for the season had to be scrapped in favor of nothing but rehab, yes?
4-Despite what BBIers were calling the worst OL in football, the team with the worst or close to the worst talent in football, somehow Jones was able to help the team go 4-7 (which easily could have been reversed if the D didn’t falter at the end. How TF did that happen with arguably the worst personnel in football?
5-Golladay was injured on and off all year and then had no QB to throw him the ball for the final 6 games
6-Toney had covid keep him out and other assorted injuries throughout the season, but when he was on the field, he was often electric. I expect big things moving forward.
So tell me who was right? That is who knew what we all didn’t know?
Respectfully, I'm incredibly relieved the front office did not share this rosy outlook.
This is not a roster and coaching staff that could have "reversed the record" as you put it. If anyone in power felt that way, we aren't celebrating a new GM hire today and waiting for a new head coach.
If success as a team hinged on 1 linebacker going out, the defense is a poorly constructed house of cards. (And, it turns out, it is)The Giants alleged to be a 3-4 defense which requires 4 starting linebackers. They had 1 player worthy to start at the position for week 1. We knew all season they had no pass rush capability. That never manifested itself all season.
So if we recognize the defense was flawed and lacking depth and talent at key positions and roles, why would we ever think they were equipped to do much of anything?
Shane Lemieux was not a hero in waiting. They would have had questionable at best OL if Gates and he had played. The right side of the OL was healthy and got caved in all season because Hernandez and Solder are bad football players. Even if gates and lemieux stayed healthy, the entire right side of the line would have been an obvious sieve.
The team was never really outfit to do anything.
There were posters who said it would be a big year for Jones now that he had Barkely back, we added Golladay and Rudolph. he would take the same step that Josh Allen took in year 3. Of course he didn't.
Gates and Lemiuex getting hurt sucked, but this line was bad even with them. We had an overpaid RT who can't play anymore backed up by a 3rd round pick who had not shown much.
But here we still had people pretending the team was on the right path. Gettleman was doing well and the last couple of drafts were strong. Golladay was a strong get. Jones would take the next step.
All of those things were dead wrong, and people who kept getting upset and angry when challenged are the same people who disappeared rather than admit the people who saw this all were correct. It's a really bad look.
There were posters who said it would be a big year for Jones now that he had Barkely back, we added Golladay and Rudolph. he would take the same step that Josh Allen took in year 3. Of course he didn't.
Gates and Lemiuex getting hurt sucked, but this line was bad even with them. We had an overpaid RT who can't play anymore backed up by a 3rd round pick who had not shown much.
But here we still had people pretending the team was on the right path. Gettleman was doing well and the last couple of drafts were strong. Golladay was a strong get. Jones would take the next step.
All of those things were dead wrong, and people who kept getting upset and angry when challenged are the same people who disappeared rather than admit the people who saw this all were correct. It's a really bad look.
Jones missed the last 6 games..He was 4-7 (should have been better if the D didn’t cave) with arguably the worst personnel/OL in football..My point is, he still may be deemed an incomplete by the new regime. I have no idea which way they’ll lean. They may go with him in year 4 without picking up his 5th year option and let him play for the 8 million. If he excels, you re-sign him. If he sucks, you’ve really lost nothing. They might decide they don’t want to move forward at all and pick up a vet and draft one for this coming season.
Get ready to play actual football, in body and mind, earlier versus later...
Will Hernandez, Nate Solder, and Matt Peart all had massive question marks the last time they had been on the field. Those three players consistently struggling was no surprise.
The material loss on the line was Gates. The Giants lost their second best lineman. That’s real and hurt, but it wasn’t the difference between competence and what they dragged out there.
But do yourself a favor -- look at the details. It isn't pretty. The last 4 years of "i think we can straighten this thing out on a fly" were effected by kicking the can down the road on restructures and locking themselves into free agent deals that have very significant guaranteed money in 22 and 23.
There aren't a lot of contracts that jump off the page as easy to move on from that free up significant dollars. There simply aren't. And those that are just so happen to be the better players on the roster.
There's a lot of wood to chop, and if the more quickly they want to clean up the numbers, the more it may require trading away some of the actually valuable contracts on the books.
Roll with mostly what we have next year, and it clears itself up after that with little to no dead money. Far as dead money goes, we are close to the bottom of the league next year, we don't look bad at all going forward after next year. If we chop a lot of guys to free space, that changes.
Right now 2023 and 2024 look good. Next year is fucked, we should stand pat, let him assess, nail the drat and bring it a couple of vet OL to supplement the draft, get the OL right and move forward from there in 2023.
In the combined Pat Shurmur years the team averaged 23 ppg (allowed 27)
In the combined Joe Judge years the team gave up 23 ppg (scored 16)
unlike those 2 regimes lets try to get competent coordinators on both sides of the ball. and a head coach that doesn't break surrender index records on a weekly basis.
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They expected precious little from Barkely and Jones, two guys who are oft injured and unproductive. That was a correct assessment.
There were posters who said it would be a big year for Jones now that he had Barkely back, we added Golladay and Rudolph. he would take the same step that Josh Allen took in year 3. Of course he didn't.
Gates and Lemiuex getting hurt sucked, but this line was bad even with them. We had an overpaid RT who can't play anymore backed up by a 3rd round pick who had not shown much.
But here we still had people pretending the team was on the right path. Gettleman was doing well and the last couple of drafts were strong. Golladay was a strong get. Jones would take the next step.
All of those things were dead wrong, and people who kept getting upset and angry when challenged are the same people who disappeared rather than admit the people who saw this all were correct. It's a really bad look.
Jones missed the last 6 games..He was 4-7 (should have been better if the D didn’t cave) with arguably the worst personnel/OL in football..My point is, he still may be deemed an incomplete by the new regime. I have no idea which way they’ll lean. They may go with him in year 4 without picking up his 5th year option and let him play for the 8 million. If he excels, you re-sign him. If he sucks, you’ve really lost nothing. They might decide they don’t want to move forward at all and pick up a vet and draft one for this coming season.
4-7, and in those games they hit 20 points only 5 times, and never hit 30. 10 TDs and 7 INTs in those games. But yeah, the defense was costing them games.
Jones is likely here next year, but I would be really concerned if anyone is even considering picking up the 5th year option on Jones.
Gotta nail the drafts no matter what.
I am not going to argue this with any expended energy as we have always been at polar opposites with regards to Jones. No one knows how he would have fared the last 6 games, though with the scrubs on the OL, I would concede not all that well..
No one is right or wrong on DJ until the GZm and new HC decide his fate which we probably won’t know until the end of next season.
I have no problem bringing in competition for DJ..I’m just leery about expending another high pick on a QB..
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I remember it. You were right...they signed a whole mess of underperforming players during free agency to bad contracts and somehow fit it into the cap.
And then started restructuring contracts to old underperforming guys that really shouldn't even be on the roster next year to fit the new underperforming guys under the cap.
And then started restructuring contracts to the new underperforming guys that they just gave new contracts to because they ran out of contracts to touch from the old underperforming guys.
And then had to keep playing games towards the endof the season with less than a normal roster because they ran out of money and contracts to restructure.
All to win 4 games. But you nailed it.
Good stuff...
Great post. djm is a real pisser.
Yea except i never said the moves paid off I simply said they made moves when this entire board said they couldn’t. Guess that’s hard for some to understand.