"Marsha, Marsha, Marsha." I just find it not credible that Mara and or Mara/Tisch care more about Daniel Jones than the future of the franchise. And I also do not think Joe Schoen would put his reputation at risk by acquiescing to an ownership demand on who plays QB.
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP."
It's hard for me not to root for this guy to get a good break, have some consistent OL play, and get a better scheme and coaching in place than he has had since Joe Judge took over. Because believe it or not it's better for the Giants if he ends up being the guy.
At this point just trust the process. He's probably not going anywhere next year, and I'm sure Schoen and whoever the new coaching staff ends up being will do what's necessary either way as long as they are worth their salt. This constant hand wringing over the existing QB is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I root for success whether it's with Jones or without him.
I agree there are fans who seem to be bigger Jones fans than Giants fans, or maybe bigger fans of being proven right than Giants fans; I probably come across as one of those
All I can state is: I m a Giants fan first and foremost. Right now I still believe the best case scenario for the team is for Jones to turn out to be the guy, it seems less likely than likely at this pt.
But as long as he is part of the team, that s what I root for. If Schoen decides to move on, I m immediately behind the other guy, that s the truth of who I am as a fan.
I would gloat a bit if Jones did turn this around, I m human, but I will also admit I was wrong when and if they move on. I liked Kent Graham and Randy Johnson, for goodness sake,I know you probably don’t even know who Johnson is, pt being I know my limitations,….. I have no other agenda as a fan than to see my team win.
But I get your pt. Told you before you re one of the posters I pay attention to, you bring good stuff. [/quote]
Good post, I agree with you... except for the statement that there are posters who are more Jones fans than Giants fans. I haven't seen any of that whatsoever. But again, good post
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP.".
There's something to be said for you rhetorically asking if a prospective hire should be honest about the state of the roster he would be inhereting and asserting that to do so would be dumb.
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP.".
There's something to be said for you rhetorically asking if a prospective hire should be honest about the state of the roster he would be inhereting and asserting that to do so would be dumb.
Right now, there is little or no alternative so they better "like" him. The cap is a mess and there are too many needs to spend draft picks.
Bingo. My guess is vet backup/competition. Stick w/ Jones for the year and make a call when they can free up cap space.
I also wouldn't be surprised on a later flyer in the draft if there is someone they think they can develop. They need to start taking more shots investing here until they find the right guy.
The idea of “competition for Jones” is somewhat unrealistic
Just who are you going to get. Name someone who is good enough to be a starter who is available. If they are really good enough to be a starter they’re not going to be available or come here as a backup. Sure maybe some bottom five types but they’re not viable options really. I’m glad to have anyone they can find but you have to be realistic about who you can get.
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP."
It's hard for me not to root for this guy to get a good break, have some consistent OL play, and get a better scheme and coaching in place than he has had since Joe Judge took over. Because believe it or not it's better for the Giants if he ends up being the guy.
At this point just trust the process. He's probably not going anywhere next year, and I'm sure Schoen and whoever the new coaching staff ends up being will do what's necessary either way as long as they are worth their salt. This constant hand wringing over the existing QB is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I root for success whether it's with Jones or without him.
Trust the process, where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah….
This ain't a team that is having fistfights on the sidelines. This ain't some clown show organization or something else," Judge said. "You talk about the foundation built. The toughest thing to change in a team, in a club, is the way people think. You understand that? That is the toughest thing. You can get new players. You can have your damn locker room all you want. You have to change how people think. You have to change how they f---ing believe in what you're doing. And they have to trust the process.”
I wouldn’t take the Giants Insider podcast as gospel, a lot of arrogance from Chris Bisignano and he has been proven wrong plenty.
1. Injury history
2. Already year 4 of his rookie deal
3. There has been no production
4. He hasn’t elevated anyone else
I do not get the loyalty to Jones. We also think the front office nailed the Jones pick based on their history everywhere else?
Really? That's such a crap analysis. Tell you what you keep OL, keep the coach, keep the GM, and bring in a best QB in the draft. Tell me that YOU WON'T get the same outcome. It's not Jones!!!
They just hired a GM and gave him FULL AUTHORITY to overhaul the WHOLE ORGANIZATION and you want to tell me it falls on the shoulders of Daniel Jones and he's the problem? Horsecrap!
RE: The idea of “competition for Jones” is somewhat unrealistic
Just who are you going to get. Name someone who is good enough to be a starter who is available. If they are really good enough to be a starter they’re not going to be available or come here as a backup. Sure maybe some bottom five types but they’re not viable options really. I’m glad to have anyone they can find but you have to be realistic about who you can get.
They don’t have to be good enough to be a starter they just have to be better than Jones.
Not very likely but who knows… As good as these candidates sound they were top 3 because of the biases of the front office and because they afford an ability to continue living in an echo chamber.
Wait Joe, you don’t like Daniel Jones?
Pat tell the press Hortiz bombed.
Huh, Me Poles? Jones processing and feel are poor?
Pat tell the press Poles is very young and will be a great GM somewhere else.
This would be very unfortunate, if true.
We've been told it's Chris Mara who has the pipeline to Paul Schwartz, not Hanlon.
Just like the Judge vote of confidence and every other vote of confidence we’ve ever heard only to follow by they coach or player being cast off. Jones has shown very little ability to be a top 20 starter let alone a true franchise qb. He ll likely get this year if he’s healthy and we ll likely see a veteran qb in to push for competition and Jones hit the bench sometime in 2022.
Hard for me to believe Schoen was involved in evaluating Allen as a prospect, watched him carve up the league the past two seasons while making playoff runs and will be happy watching jones miss yet another open receiver while throwing to someone covered and settling for 3 while averaging 16 points a game.
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP."
It's hard for me not to root for this guy to get a good break, have some consistent OL play, and get a better scheme and coaching in place than he has had since Joe Judge took over. Because believe it or not it's better for the Giants if he ends up being the guy.
At this point just trust the process. He's probably not going anywhere next year, and I'm sure Schoen and whoever the new coaching staff ends up being will do what's necessary either way as long as they are worth their salt. This constant hand wringing over the existing QB is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I root for success whether it's with Jones or without him.
Trust the process, where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah….
This ain't a team that is having fistfights on the sidelines. This ain't some clown show organization or something else," Judge said. "You talk about the foundation built. The toughest thing to change in a team, in a club, is the way people think. You understand that? That is the toughest thing. You can get new players. You can have your damn locker room all you want. You have to change how people think. You have to change how they f---ing believe in what you're doing. And they have to trust the process.”
Right, but we jettisoned Gettleman and Timmy Toughnuts. All signs are that we have a good hire in Schoen. Hopefully he brings in the best available coach/staff. At this point it is what it is, we have to let it play out.
Shoen might want to give Jones a chance to compete since by all accounts he’s well respected in the locker room, but if the neck is bad that would be taken off the table.
Jones is viewed as a franchise QB around the league.
Please link the many quotes that say that? I've watched a lot of sports opinion shows/sports radio and I've haven't once heard anyone who played the game say this. I've heard he's been put in a tough situation...but never heard an ex-NFL player say he looks like a franchise QB. He definitely doesn't pass the eye test.
RE: I'm starting to doubt that there will be a competition
It was terrible with Jones...then fell off a cliff. We had to be bottom 3 in red zone offense with DJ...he's a FG waiting to happen. Gano definitely wants DJ as QB.
RE: RE: I'm starting to doubt that there will be a competition
It was terrible with Jones...then fell off a cliff. We had to be bottom 3 in red zone offense with DJ...he's a FG waiting to happen. Gano definitely wants DJ as QB.
We barely sniffed a field goal without Jones, though.
That's kinda George's point on page 1.
This entire offense was minor league. Under Jones it actually scored non-garbage time points. Not nearly enough, but we had absolutely nothing when he was gone.
Nothing. Elite college defenses could probably manage us.
I've never warmed to Jones but he should probably start in 2022
if the top QBs in this draft aren't appealing to Schoen. Jones is cheap for another year. Sign another vet QB who can compete
and/or fill in when Jones inevitably gets dinged up and plan for both guys to be gone in 2023.
more than they like the Giants. That's sounds pretty silly (unless there are some Jones family members on BBI, in which case it would be understandable).
I do think some fans are more patient, especially considering he was dealt a shitty hand (which some refuse to acknowledge).
Besides patience, some feel it would be best for the Giants if Jones succeeded (not a blown high pick and don't need to use another) and felt it was possible based on flashes he showed.
Like always, I'm going to leave it up to the GM and HC to decide. Hopefully the new ones will get it right.
I agree there are fans who seem to be bigger Jones fans than Giants fans, or maybe bigger fans of being proven right than Giants fans; I probably come across as one of those
All I can state is: I m a Giants fan first and foremost. Right now I still believe the best case scenario for the team is for Jones to turn out to be the guy, it seems less likely than likely at this pt.
But as long as he is part of the team, that s what I root for. If Schoen decides to move on, I m immediately behind the other guy, that s the truth of who I am as a fan.
I would gloat a bit if Jones did turn this around, I m human, but I will also admit I was wrong when and if they move on. I liked Kent Graham and Randy Johnson, for goodness sake,I know you probably don’t even know who Johnson is, pt being I know my limitations,….. I have no other agenda as a fan than to see my team win.
But I get your pt. Told you before you re one of the posters I pay attention to, you bring good stuff.
Good post, I agree with you... except for the statement that there are posters who are more Jones fans than Giants fans. I haven't seen any of that whatsoever. But again, good post [/quote]
I kind of thought there is a chance Sean had me in that category. Maybe I should have stated I agree it might seem like there are fans like that
I wouldn’t take the Giants Insider podcast as gospel, a lot of arrogance from Chris Bisignano and he has been proven wrong plenty.
1. Injury history
2. Already year 4 of his rookie deal
3. There has been no production
4. He hasn’t elevated anyone else
I do not get the loyalty to Jones. We also think the front office nailed the Jones pick based on their history everywhere else?
I disagree on elevating other players. His downfield completion percentage was considered top 10 in the league. I see this as "elevating" his downfield recievers ability to make big plays.
insofar as imo health permitting he's already close to a league average QB (which given the circumstances of talent around him is somewhat of an accomplishment). And I think a lot like Tannehill there's upside for him if could ever find his way to a non-f'd up situation and stay healthy.
before anyone flips their there's a pretty simple statistical baseline for it regardless of opinion (mine included):
by QBR
'21 - 22nd of 31 qualifiers
'20 - 20th of 33
'19 - 18th of 30
if your a QB rating traditionalist Jones (84.3) has almost the exact same career rating as Eli (84.1). with Darius Slayton as the leading receiver over his 3 years. whatever any of us thinks of Jones' talent I don't imagine anyone would argue he was propped up by coaching/talent around him.
Some of those who ranked ahead of Jones by QBR were Hurts, Bridgewater, Tua, Cousins, Wentz, and Garapolo (i'd prefer Jones to those guys for next year if it were a binary choice). Some of the QB's he ranked ahead of who other teams considered starters in their 4th year (or beyond) include Mayfield, Darnold, and Goff. So giving a QB of his statistical track record a 4th year is far from unheard of.
The health and the overall upside are completely legitimate questions so I wouldn't pick up the 5th year option.
If there was a good enough trade return on the table (a la Darnold last year) i'd consider it.
If there's a player graded well available when on the clock I'd pull the trigger and let them compete.
If there's a non-insane trade opp for Wilson or Watson I'd do that.
Because of the injuries I'd try to add the best backup QB possible.
But first and foremost I'd be looking to hire an offensive coordinator with a good track record developing QBs and playcalling because I think in better circumstances Jones can be an above average QB (again a lot like Tannehill). And if not you will need someone like that anyway finding the next QB.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP."
It's hard for me not to root for this guy to get a good break, have some consistent OL play, and get a better scheme and coaching in place than he has had since Joe Judge took over. Because believe it or not it's better for the Giants if he ends up being the guy.
At this point just trust the process. He's probably not going anywhere next year, and I'm sure Schoen and whoever the new coaching staff ends up being will do what's necessary either way as long as they are worth their salt. This constant hand wringing over the existing QB is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I root for success whether it's with Jones or without him.
I agree there are fans who seem to be bigger Jones fans than Giants fans, or maybe bigger fans of being proven right than Giants fans; I probably come across as one of those
All I can state is: I m a Giants fan first and foremost. Right now I still believe the best case scenario for the team is for Jones to turn out to be the guy, it seems less likely than likely at this pt.
But as long as he is part of the team, that s what I root for. If Schoen decides to move on, I m immediately behind the other guy, that s the truth of who I am as a fan.
I would gloat a bit if Jones did turn this around, I m human, but I will also admit I was wrong when and if they move on. I liked Kent Graham and Randy Johnson, for goodness sake,I know you probably don’t even know who Johnson is, pt being I know my limitations,….. I have no other agenda as a fan than to see my team win.
But I get your pt. Told you before you re one of the posters I pay attention to, you bring good stuff. [/quote]
Good post, I agree with you... except for the statement that there are posters who are more Jones fans than Giants fans. I haven't seen any of that whatsoever. But again, good post
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP.".
There's something to be said for you rhetorically asking if a prospective hire should be honest about the state of the roster he would be inhereting and asserting that to do so would be dumb.
Quote:
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP.".
There's something to be said for you rhetorically asking if a prospective hire should be honest about the state of the roster he would be inhereting and asserting that to do so would be dumb.
Well thanks... I think? lol
Bingo. My guess is vet backup/competition. Stick w/ Jones for the year and make a call when they can free up cap space.
I also wouldn't be surprised on a later flyer in the draft if there is someone they think they can develop. They need to start taking more shots investing here until they find the right guy.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP."
It's hard for me not to root for this guy to get a good break, have some consistent OL play, and get a better scheme and coaching in place than he has had since Joe Judge took over. Because believe it or not it's better for the Giants if he ends up being the guy.
At this point just trust the process. He's probably not going anywhere next year, and I'm sure Schoen and whoever the new coaching staff ends up being will do what's necessary either way as long as they are worth their salt. This constant hand wringing over the existing QB is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I root for success whether it's with Jones or without him.
Trust the process, where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah….
This ain't a team that is having fistfights on the sidelines. This ain't some clown show organization or something else," Judge said. "You talk about the foundation built. The toughest thing to change in a team, in a club, is the way people think. You understand that? That is the toughest thing. You can get new players. You can have your damn locker room all you want. You have to change how people think. You have to change how they f---ing believe in what you're doing. And they have to trust the process.”
1. Injury history
2. Already year 4 of his rookie deal
3. There has been no production
4. He hasn’t elevated anyone else
I do not get the loyalty to Jones. We also think the front office nailed the Jones pick based on their history everywhere else?
Really? That's such a crap analysis. Tell you what you keep OL, keep the coach, keep the GM, and bring in a best QB in the draft. Tell me that YOU WON'T get the same outcome. It's not Jones!!!
They just hired a GM and gave him FULL AUTHORITY to overhaul the WHOLE ORGANIZATION and you want to tell me it falls on the shoulders of Daniel Jones and he's the problem? Horsecrap!
They don’t have to be good enough to be a starter they just have to be better than Jones.
Quote:
Not very likely but who knows… As good as these candidates sound they were top 3 because of the biases of the front office and because they afford an ability to continue living in an echo chamber.
Wait Joe, you don’t like Daniel Jones?
Pat tell the press Hortiz bombed.
Huh, Me Poles? Jones processing and feel are poor?
Pat tell the press Poles is very young and will be a great GM somewhere else.
This would be very unfortunate, if true.
We've been told it's Chris Mara who has the pipeline to Paul Schwartz, not Hanlon.
Hard for me to believe Schoen was involved in evaluating Allen as a prospect, watched him carve up the league the past two seasons while making playoff runs and will be happy watching jones miss yet another open receiver while throwing to someone covered and settling for 3 while averaging 16 points a game.
Quote:
These Daniel Jones arguments are like chinese water torture at this point. Every. Freaking. Day.
What are they supposed to say? Even if they think he sucks do you think the response is going to be "Yeah, ummm, we need to move on from this QB ASAP."
It's hard for me not to root for this guy to get a good break, have some consistent OL play, and get a better scheme and coaching in place than he has had since Joe Judge took over. Because believe it or not it's better for the Giants if he ends up being the guy.
At this point just trust the process. He's probably not going anywhere next year, and I'm sure Schoen and whoever the new coaching staff ends up being will do what's necessary either way as long as they are worth their salt. This constant hand wringing over the existing QB is just beyond ridiculous at this point. I root for success whether it's with Jones or without him.
Trust the process, where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah….
This ain't a team that is having fistfights on the sidelines. This ain't some clown show organization or something else," Judge said. "You talk about the foundation built. The toughest thing to change in a team, in a club, is the way people think. You understand that? That is the toughest thing. You can get new players. You can have your damn locker room all you want. You have to change how people think. You have to change how they f---ing believe in what you're doing. And they have to trust the process.”
Right, but we jettisoned Gettleman and Timmy Toughnuts. All signs are that we have a good hire in Schoen. Hopefully he brings in the best available coach/staff. At this point it is what it is, we have to let it play out.
Shoen might want to give Jones a chance to compete since by all accounts he’s well respected in the locker room, but if the neck is bad that would be taken off the table.
Please link the many quotes that say that? I've watched a lot of sports opinion shows/sports radio and I've haven't once heard anyone who played the game say this. I've heard he's been put in a tough situation...but never heard an ex-NFL player say he looks like a franchise QB. He definitely doesn't pass the eye test.
But lots of time between now and August.
It was terrible with Jones...then fell off a cliff. We had to be bottom 3 in red zone offense with DJ...he's a FG waiting to happen. Gano definitely wants DJ as QB.
Quote:
I feel like, if he is healthy the job is his.
But lots of time between now and August.
It was terrible with Jones...then fell off a cliff. We had to be bottom 3 in red zone offense with DJ...he's a FG waiting to happen. Gano definitely wants DJ as QB.
We barely sniffed a field goal without Jones, though.
That's kinda George's point on page 1.
This entire offense was minor league. Under Jones it actually scored non-garbage time points. Not nearly enough, but we had absolutely nothing when he was gone.
Nothing. Elite college defenses could probably manage us.
and/or fill in when Jones inevitably gets dinged up and plan for both guys to be gone in 2023.
I do think some fans are more patient, especially considering he was dealt a shitty hand (which some refuse to acknowledge).
Besides patience, some feel it would be best for the Giants if Jones succeeded (not a blown high pick and don't need to use another) and felt it was possible based on flashes he showed.
Like always, I'm going to leave it up to the GM and HC to decide. Hopefully the new ones will get it right.
Can you point out one member of this "Jones cult"?
I agree there are fans who seem to be bigger Jones fans than Giants fans, or maybe bigger fans of being proven right than Giants fans; I probably come across as one of those
All I can state is: I m a Giants fan first and foremost. Right now I still believe the best case scenario for the team is for Jones to turn out to be the guy, it seems less likely than likely at this pt.
But as long as he is part of the team, that s what I root for. If Schoen decides to move on, I m immediately behind the other guy, that s the truth of who I am as a fan.
I would gloat a bit if Jones did turn this around, I m human, but I will also admit I was wrong when and if they move on. I liked Kent Graham and Randy Johnson, for goodness sake,I know you probably don’t even know who Johnson is, pt being I know my limitations,….. I have no other agenda as a fan than to see my team win.
But I get your pt. Told you before you re one of the posters I pay attention to, you bring good stuff.
Good post, I agree with you... except for the statement that there are posters who are more Jones fans than Giants fans. I haven't seen any of that whatsoever. But again, good post [/quote]
I kind of thought there is a chance Sean had me in that category. Maybe I should have stated I agree it might seem like there are fans like that
1. Injury history
2. Already year 4 of his rookie deal
3. There has been no production
4. He hasn’t elevated anyone else
I do not get the loyalty to Jones. We also think the front office nailed the Jones pick based on their history everywhere else?
I disagree on elevating other players. His downfield completion percentage was considered top 10 in the league. I see this as "elevating" his downfield recievers ability to make big plays.
before anyone flips their there's a pretty simple statistical baseline for it regardless of opinion (mine included):
by QBR
'21 - 22nd of 31 qualifiers
'20 - 20th of 33
'19 - 18th of 30
if your a QB rating traditionalist Jones (84.3) has almost the exact same career rating as Eli (84.1). with Darius Slayton as the leading receiver over his 3 years. whatever any of us thinks of Jones' talent I don't imagine anyone would argue he was propped up by coaching/talent around him.
Some of those who ranked ahead of Jones by QBR were Hurts, Bridgewater, Tua, Cousins, Wentz, and Garapolo (i'd prefer Jones to those guys for next year if it were a binary choice). Some of the QB's he ranked ahead of who other teams considered starters in their 4th year (or beyond) include Mayfield, Darnold, and Goff. So giving a QB of his statistical track record a 4th year is far from unheard of.
The health and the overall upside are completely legitimate questions so I wouldn't pick up the 5th year option.
If there was a good enough trade return on the table (a la Darnold last year) i'd consider it.
If there's a player graded well available when on the clock I'd pull the trigger and let them compete.
If there's a non-insane trade opp for Wilson or Watson I'd do that.
Because of the injuries I'd try to add the best backup QB possible.
But first and foremost I'd be looking to hire an offensive coordinator with a good track record developing QBs and playcalling because I think in better circumstances Jones can be an above average QB (again a lot like Tannehill). And if not you will need someone like that anyway finding the next QB.
Exactly. What did anyone expect to “hear”? Nothing to see here. Less than nothing.