Buried gem in this article...
| Those changes will be evaluated on the scoreboard, of course, which has been most unkind to the Giants for the better part of a decade. One team official recently said, “I want to know how the f–k we ended up in this position” after winning that second Manning-Tom Coughlin Super Bowl. Schoen was hired to figure that out, and nothing about how he is judged will be, you know, collaborative. |
Joe Schoen must stay available, accountable as new face of Giants’ organization - (
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When Cruz suffered that devastating injury - he worked his ass off to get back. Reese and the boys felt he would be a good fit as an outside WR still. So in the draft they decided a slot WR, Sterling Shepard, would be the ideal fit with Cruz and OBJ. So they drafted SS instead of Michael Thomas - who even though is a nut would have been a much much better luck because Cruz was terrible as an outside WR.
Totally agree with this. SS is easy to root for but was clearly not the best pick there for us.
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That doesn’t get talked about is Victor Cruz.
When Cruz suffered that devastating injury - he worked his ass off to get back. Reese and the boys felt he would be a good fit as an outside WR still. So in the draft they decided a slot WR, Sterling Shepard, would be the ideal fit with Cruz and OBJ. So they drafted SS instead of Michael Thomas - who even though is a nut would have been a much much better luck because Cruz was terrible as an outside WR.
Totally agree with this. SS is easy to root for but was clearly not the best pick there for us.
Mcadoofus is also to blame, SS is more a WC type receiver.
That's not the explanation. That's just re-statingnthe problem.
The explanation is in how they forgot how to draft good players.
Do the Giants have a history of going with the best candidate in either their head coaching or GM searches.I have a hard time believing guys like McAdoo or Judge were the most qualified.
I think the Giants,or the Mara's,have a comfort zone,which is more important to them.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
Well Martindale just got shit canned in Baltimore so either Hortiz wasn’t paying attention to what was happening right in front of him or he wasn’t in lock step with the other decision makers there. Either way, not good.
That was the year to refortify the lines (at least start). Instead we got a scat back, another WR, Corner, measurables TE with the first four picks. Mind boggling. The whole OL and DL was on fumes. There were very conflicting ideas on team building imv. Then the drafts continued to be horrible.
The 2011 draft was very bad. The 2012 draft arguably the same, although Wilson and Randle most certainly would have stayed in the league if not for injuries. No argument there. Terrible.
From 2013 - 2017 the Giants drafted a bunch of players who stuck around the NFL. Pugh, Hankins, Kennard, Richburg, Beckham, Hart, Collins, Flowers, Goodson, Shepard, Apple, Gallman, Tomlinson, Engram.
Again, I’m not saying that’s an impressive group. Just that they belonged in the NFL.
I’m happy to wager a trip to the moon, if we have this same conversation in 2027, Gettleman’s 2018 - 2020 drafts look about the same.
you are reaching if the argument includes Hart, Gallman, Goodson, Apple as anything other than sub-replacement level players. Slayton, Baker, Connolly, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Love, Holmes, Robinson, Crowder etc. are likely to "stick around the nfl" too but what does that matter if they were never productive, reliable starters here or elsewhere?
the players who fit the category of productive reliable starters from those 7 drafts are who? OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson?
if only Lawrence (41 starts), Thomas (28 starts), McKinney (20 starts), Ojulari (13 starts) stay on track to second contracts then the list is already longer in almost half the number of drafts. And that list has the chance to meaningfully grow with Barkley, Jones, Toney, the bears pick, or someone currently unexpected (like Slayton, Gates, Love, Crowder, or Robinson).
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But I don't like that Hortiz has been identified as being somewhat of an outlier in his coaching suggestions (Harbaugh, Martindale) while the rest were all in lockstep (Daboll, Flores, Quinn, apparently Graham) and did not get a 2nd interview despite being highly regarded and from a model front office. I have a hard time buying the "he was rusty in the zoom interview" line that was reported. Rust or nerves has nothing to do with vision and ability.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I think you are reading into it too much. If Hortiz was the best candidate the Giants would have gone that direction, but it sounded like he wasn’t. Additionally, even if they thought Harbaugh was better than Flores/Daboll, maybe they could not get the assurances that Harbaugh will go wherever Hortiz is hired. Then it becomes is a lesser GM worth it if we can’t get his top coaching choice or is the difference in GM quality larger than the difference of Harbaugh versus the field.
Its absolutely possible if not likely, I fully admit that. but your post works from the premise that mgmt can identify the best candidate. My concern is that they cant and are still, if even to a lesser degree, bound by what is familiar and comfortable. Time will tell.
And the drafts from 2018-2021. How many of them are still with the team? How many are on track for second contracts?
They ran the personnel department and are
Also owners.
Why do we never hear them speak? They are never held accountable.
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then count how many players made it to second contracts here or anywhere else.
And the drafts from 2018-2021. How many of them are still with the team? How many are on track for second contracts?
20/21 I think will have a few players who make a longer term commitment.
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In comment 15566620 j_rud said:
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But I don't like that Hortiz has been identified as being somewhat of an outlier in his coaching suggestions (Harbaugh, Martindale) while the rest were all in lockstep (Daboll, Flores, Quinn, apparently Graham) and did not get a 2nd interview despite being highly regarded and from a model front office. I have a hard time buying the "he was rusty in the zoom interview" line that was reported. Rust or nerves has nothing to do with vision and ability.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I think you are reading into it too much. If Hortiz was the best candidate the Giants would have gone that direction, but it sounded like he wasn’t. Additionally, even if they thought Harbaugh was better than Flores/Daboll, maybe they could not get the assurances that Harbaugh will go wherever Hortiz is hired. Then it becomes is a lesser GM worth it if we can’t get his top coaching choice or is the difference in GM quality larger than the difference of Harbaugh versus the field.
Its absolutely possible if not likely, I fully admit that. but your post works from the premise that mgmt can identify the best candidate. My concern is that they cant and are still, if even to a lesser degree, bound by what is familiar and comfortable. Time will tell.
Looking at the names involved this time on the GM search, it did appear that the Giants branched out. Had I seen Abrams, Pioli, and Dimitroff as the finalists then I would worry. With how long the Mara family has been involved and the preponderance throughout the league of disciples of Parcells/Belichick, you can Kevin Bacon almost anyone with more than ~10 years experience to the Giants. I think with the failures of McAdoo and Judge the Giants were looking at those who had generally been finalists for other teams and/or occupy key roles evaluating talent for currently strong teams. They would rather get the safer double with someone like Schoen or Peters than looking at someone who is less of a football guy/gal and more of an administrator (Raiche, the guy from the Browns, etc.)
That was the year to refortify the lines (at least start). Instead we got a scat back, another WR, Corner, measurables TE with the first four picks. Mind boggling. The whole OL and DL was on fumes. There were very conflicting ideas on team building imv. Then the drafts continued to be horrible.
this is jmo but they (reese, presumably with ross' influence) became "triangle athlete" obsessed, especially towards the end with Engram, Apple, Flowers. In addition to those 3 Marvin Austin, Wilson, Randle, the JPP of TE's, Andre Williams all fit the profile of athletes more than football players. A lot of those guys probably had those exact words in their scouting reports.
OBJ and JPP may have fit the same profile to a degree so credit where it's due, this strategy did have 2 very high upside hits. But the misses were big misses, including those '15-'17 first round picks all in a row.
if you look at the pre-2011 drafts under Reese there weren't quite as many raw athletes drafted on potential, especially with higher picks. Jacobs, Barden, Beatty, and JPP fit that 'athlete more than football player' profile at the time they were drafted but not too many others.
Then in that 2012 timeframe they shifted from that. I actually think if you asked good football people around the league, "What happened to the Giants?" the response would be they don't beat anyone up anymore.
The 2011 draft was very bad. The 2012 draft arguably the same, although Wilson and Randle most certainly would have stayed in the league if not for injuries. No argument there. Terrible.
From 2013 - 2017 the Giants drafted a bunch of players who stuck around the NFL. Pugh, Hankins, Kennard, Richburg, Beckham, Hart, Collins, Flowers, Goodson, Shepard, Apple, Gallman, Tomlinson, Engram.
Again, I’m not saying that’s an impressive group. Just that they belonged in the NFL.
I’m happy to wager a trip to the moon, if we have this same conversation in 2027, Gettleman’s 2018 - 2020 drafts look about the same.
V'mon now christian, that bet is just stealing money!
DG's drafts already look like that!
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then count how many players made it to second contracts here or anywhere else.
And the drafts from 2018-2021. How many of them are still with the team? How many are on track for second contracts?
as much as guys who are 1-2 years into their careers can be on track I would say right now there are 4 on track (Lawrence, Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari). All 4 have started basically from their first day in the NFL, produced by traditional statistics, and generally graded well by PFF. Thomas and Ojulari play premium positions that are hard to find which makes them likely to be retained. this list is already longer than the list for the 7 prior drafts, which itself doesn't prove anything except "not as bad".
Barkley, Jones, Toney are high variance. i don't think it's a stretch to say it's within the realm of possibility that any of the 3 ends up with either the biggest next contract of any player selected in the last 4 years or dealt off this offseason. the first 2 are going into make or break contract years whether it's with the giants or elsewhere. all 3 have big health ?'s.
then there's a reasonably long list of maybes who have are still under contract and could possibly prove to be worth second contracts though i'd doubt any end up impact players. Slayton, Love, Crowder, Gates, Holmes, Robinson, Peart, Lemieux, etc.
Then in that 2012 timeframe they shifted from that. I actually think if you asked good football people around the league, "What happened to the Giants?" the response would be they don't beat anyone up anymore.
the 2012 timeframe aligns with Marc Ross' apex, when he was getting GM interviews/promoted, and when Reese was reportedly trying to give him more autonomy.
each year removed from the 2nd SB meanwhile Coughlin and his coordinators were going into the blender each offseason. Gillbride got bounced after 2013, Fewell after 2014, and there were always the rumors that McAdoo was to some degree forced on Coughlin.
point being that Coughlin's influence was likely on a downward trajectory from the 2nd SB on, and in part why the roster started moving away from prioritizing physicality as much as they did in that 2004-2010 range. It's zero sum right? if someone's influence went down someone else's had to go up.
agreed - and particularly when judge was here they did that the last 2 years. Thomas, Toney, McKinney, Ojulari have the ability to be impact players (and presumably the bears pick will too).
for the first time in all the searches this org has had since Coughlin left it appeared that the NYG were the most preferable destination to the candidates on the market (it's reported that was true for Schoen). i'd guess that the group above and the 2 top 10 picks this year had a lot to do with that. and will have a lot to do with how quickly the new regime can get things going.
I fully expect JS to recognize this and he will address this very heavily his first two years.
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In comment 15566640 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15566593 christian said:
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The Giants drafted a number of players who stuck around the league during that time. It’s a combination of who they drafted, but also how they coached them.
out of the entire 2011 + 2012 drafts only 1 player made it to a second contract anywhere in the NFL (prince). The near entirety of those 2 drafts disappeared from the NFL like a fart in the wind. literally throwing darts at a board would have worked out better. People call Barkley a bust and he scored more TD's in just his rookie year than these 2 full drafts combined (11 career tds between Randle, Wilson, Robinson, Jernigan, Scott).
the 5 drafts between 2013-2017 were only slightly better, and basically only due to OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson.
Pugh and Shepard spent most of their NYG careers hurt. The rest were either malcontents or rotation players or both (Flowers, Apple, Hankins).
You are exactly right. The 2011 Draft was the knock down punch for the entire 2010s, and the next Draft in 2012 ensured the Giants never got off the mat.
whiffing on the 2011 and 2012 drafts, while the OL crumbled in tandem, is what forced everything after that moment. The reaches for Pugh/Flowers in 2013/2105, the bad FA deals for Schwartz, Jerry, 2 years of desperately starting Bobby Hart at RT.
assuming Engram walks they went 1 for 7 on first round picks getting to their 2nd contracts between 2011-2017 (with the 1 being OBJ who got traded).
all true, but I think Christian's point is still correct. It's a two tier problem. We drafted very poorly, especially in the early 2010s. That is the primary problem. But we also mismanaged our assets after they were on the team. That shows up in how many former Giants are in the playoffs this year. Sure, they are in the range of below average to just above average players. But if you create more holes than you close every year you will never fill all of your holes. And right now we have so many holes that it will take years to fill them all.
point being that Coughlin's influence was likely on a downward trajectory from the 2nd SB on, and in part why the roster started moving away from prioritizing physicality as much as they did in that 2004-2010 range. It's zero sum right? if someone's influence went down someone else's had to go up.
A lot of 'how the f--k we ended in this position' is the fadage of the strong voice in the FO who could parry ownership's meddling. Young, Parcells, etc. Arguably, Coughlin was/should have been the voice to say butt out and be listened to.
If what you're speculating is true, under what internal dynamic should Ross have acceded to greater influence and Coughlin less, unless, in fact, they were aligned?
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I agree but carful some get hyper sensitive on that topic. When TC came in he addressed the lines. It was actually contrary to what Ernie believed but they did have commonality elsewhere. 2004 they added Snee. 2005 they spent big money on McKenzie. Added a big back in Jacobs. Tuck who was a physical presence. Physicality.
Then in that 2012 timeframe they shifted from that. I actually think if you asked good football people around the league, "What happened to the Giants?" the response would be they don't beat anyone up anymore.
the 2012 timeframe aligns with Marc Ross' apex, when he was getting GM interviews/promoted, and when Reese was reportedly trying to give him more autonomy.
each year removed from the 2nd SB meanwhile Coughlin and his coordinators were going into the blender each offseason. Gillbride got bounced after 2013, Fewell after 2014, and there were always the rumors that McAdoo was to some degree forced on Coughlin.
point being that Coughlin's influence was likely on a downward trajectory from the 2nd SB on, and in part why the roster started moving away from prioritizing physicality as much as they did in that 2004-2010 range. It's zero sum right? if someone's influence went down someone else's had to go up.
I think Super Bowl XLVI gave us a false sense of where we were as a team. Yes injuries played a role, but it was an aging team that did have a bit of luck in the playoffs. Atlanta was 10-6, but they were 4-4 on the road and beat up a lot of teams with losing records. Green Bay we probably beat in the regular season if not for some questionable officiating, but that was really the only playoff game where we had a difficult matchup on paper. San Francisco relied heavily on their Defense especially in inclement weather which actually helped the Giants. In the regular season the Giants were leading 13-12 after 3 quarters. However, the Niners offense finally grinded us down in the 4th quarter. That did not happen in the playoffs. Finally, let's not forget we beat New England in New England during the regular season. Had New Orleans held on against San Francisco, I do not think the Giants are playing in Super Bowl XLVI.
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I agree but carful some get hyper sensitive on that topic. When TC came in he addressed the lines. It was actually contrary to what Ernie believed but they did have commonality elsewhere. 2004 they added Snee. 2005 they spent big money on McKenzie. Added a big back in Jacobs. Tuck who was a physical presence. Physicality.
Then in that 2012 timeframe they shifted from that. I actually think if you asked good football people around the league, "What happened to the Giants?" the response would be they don't beat anyone up anymore.
the 2012 timeframe aligns with Marc Ross' apex, when he was getting GM interviews/promoted, and when Reese was reportedly trying to give him more autonomy.
each year removed from the 2nd SB meanwhile Coughlin and his coordinators were going into the blender each offseason. Gillbride got bounced after 2013, Fewell after 2014, and there were always the rumors that McAdoo was to some degree forced on Coughlin.
point being that Coughlin's influence was likely on a downward trajectory from the 2nd SB on, and in part why the roster started moving away from prioritizing physicality as much as they did in that 2004-2010 range. It's zero sum right? if someone's influence went down someone else's had to go up.
Coughlin loosing influence after winning a 2nd SB? That doesn’t seem realistic.
Paraphrasing someone above, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the GIANTS drafting under Reese/Ross stunk to high heaven, and under Gettleman wasn't much better. Beyond that, the veteran free agent acquisitions under both of them have been mostly awful. And finally, the last three coaches all just plain stunk. And it's all on the team ownership who couldn't see the forest for the trees while this was happening.
And beyond that, just taking Josh Allen would not have changed anything for the GIANTS who are possibly the worst team in NFL history at developing QBs. Buffalo's coaching staff took a guy who was not ready for the NFL when he got here and turned him into probably the best overall QB into the league. If the Midgets had drafted him, he'd be somewhere else as a back up now.
Paraphrasing someone above, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the GIANTS drafting under Reese/Ross stunk to high heaven, and under Gettleman wasn't much better. Beyond that, the veteran free agent acquisitions under both of them have been mostly awful. And finally, the last three coaches all just plain stunk. And it's all on the team ownership who couldn't see the forest for the trees while this was happening.
And beyond that, just taking Josh Allen would not have changed anything for the GIANTS who are possibly the worst team in NFL history at developing QBs. Buffalo's coaching staff took a guy who was not ready for the NFL when he got here and turned him into probably the best overall QB into the league. If the Midgets had drafted him, he'd be somewhere else as a back up now.
Jints Central
The Giants should be ashamed for how they enabled Gettleman's BS from the first day to his last day. Zero accountability and destroyed any credibility the franchise had left.
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In comment 15566837 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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I agree but carful some get hyper sensitive on that topic. When TC came in he addressed the lines. It was actually contrary to what Ernie believed but they did have commonality elsewhere. 2004 they added Snee. 2005 they spent big money on McKenzie. Added a big back in Jacobs. Tuck who was a physical presence. Physicality.
Then in that 2012 timeframe they shifted from that. I actually think if you asked good football people around the league, "What happened to the Giants?" the response would be they don't beat anyone up anymore.
the 2012 timeframe aligns with Marc Ross' apex, when he was getting GM interviews/promoted, and when Reese was reportedly trying to give him more autonomy.
each year removed from the 2nd SB meanwhile Coughlin and his coordinators were going into the blender each offseason. Gillbride got bounced after 2013, Fewell after 2014, and there were always the rumors that McAdoo was to some degree forced on Coughlin.
point being that Coughlin's influence was likely on a downward trajectory from the 2nd SB on, and in part why the roster started moving away from prioritizing physicality as much as they did in that 2004-2010 range. It's zero sum right? if someone's influence went down someone else's had to go up.
Coughlin loosing influence after winning a 2nd SB? That doesn’t seem realistic.
I'm not saying he wasn't just as opinionated or strong of mind as when he first arrived. But what you need to remember is when he first arrived it was Ernie on the way out and then Jerry Reese as a first time GM. Coughlin clearly had a lot of influence on the roster as more resources than before went towards the LOS (which was his MO in jax too, where he had total roster control).
In 2012 things were different in the front office. "in reese we trust" was a thing. He'd also been a big part of the 2 super bowls, 1 largely on the strength of his 2007 draft and the other on his finding Nicks/Cruz/JPP. He would have probably been listed among the best GMs in football (deservedly). Marc Ross had his full blessing and was getting GM interviews. Watch him on TV for 10 seconds and it's clear he had no problem swinging around his ego.
so perhaps it was more that others were emboldened/empowered more than in the earlier years of the coughlin era?
the rare occasion where we are in complete agreement. I'd add on to say that this was an organizational blind spot completely baked into the DNA going back decades. Jerry Reese was by any measure an accomplished and successful executive whose downfall was an unwillingness or inability to correctly evaluate why things were going very well early on and why things were going very badly later to the point it cost him his job. Some toxic mix of loyalty and misjudgment.
Link - ( New Window )
Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell are obviously staying they'll leave their offices when they leave the planet. Let's see who else stays and then we'll have a handle on how things will probably go.
You can’t tell that’s an obvious troll?
That handle announced itself as a parody.
Smell your milk before you drink it.
the players who fit the category of productive reliable starters from those 7 drafts are who? OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson?
I’m having difficulty connecting the points in your post.
My guess is in retrospect, the 2018 - 2021 drafts will look a lot like 2013 - 2017 drafts. Mediocre.
A few players with good careers: Beckham, Collins, Flowers, Pugh, and Tomlinson. A few mediocre career starters: Engram, Hankins, Shepard, Hart, Apple. A few role players: Kennard, Goodson, Gallman.
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But if I had to pick the most grievous sin, it has been an inability or more likely unwillingness to objectively self scout every aspect of the organization.
the rare occasion where we are in complete agreement. I'd add on to say that this was an organizational blind spot completely baked into the DNA going back decades. Jerry Reese was by any measure an accomplished and successful executive whose downfall was an unwillingness or inability to correctly evaluate why things were going very well early on and why things were going very badly later to the point it cost him his job. Some toxic mix of loyalty and misjudgment.
Reese/Ross wanted a different direction imo. I suspect they wanted both Eli and TC out and had for some time. They wanted more in line with what you see from some posters here. The team who can flash in the regular season but routinely heads home in the playoffs when physicality wins and your QB has to excel from the pocket. Hopefully the running QB can even make it through a 17 NFL game season.
TC, BP, BB. Differences but foundationally they believe many of the same things. Strong front 7. Both Bills like the LB's more. TC loved big powerful DT's. Stout edge. Balanced offense. Protect the QB. Physical running game. RB's who can protect. Athletic, blue collar lines with power. Pocket QB's. WR's who can block and win 1 on 1. TE who can block first. BB favors more TE's. Etc.
Look at the draft picks starting in 2011. Does they look in line with the above philosophy?
Devon Kennard had a pretty respectable career. About as good as Manningham.
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you are reaching if the argument includes Hart, Gallman, Goodson, Apple as anything other than sub-replacement level players. Slayton, Baker, Connolly, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Love, Holmes, Robinson, Crowder etc. are likely to "stick around the nfl" too but what does that matter if they were never productive, reliable starters here or elsewhere?
the players who fit the category of productive reliable starters from those 7 drafts are who? OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson?
I’m having difficulty connecting the points in your post.
My guess is in retrospect, the 2018 - 2021 drafts will look a lot like 2013 - 2017 drafts. Mediocre.
A few players with good careers: Beckham, Collins, Flowers, Pugh, and Tomlinson. A few mediocre career starters: Engram, Hankins, Shepard, Hart, Apple. A few role players: Kennard, Goodson, Gallman.
how many current nyg players drafted 2018 and beyond do you see getting multi-year 2nd contracts whether it's from the Giants or another team?
No idea. Too many variables to assign market demand.
What players drafted from 2018 on do I predict will fit into the buckets of good career, mediocre starter, career role players if you look back 9 years later?
Good Career: Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari, Toney, Lawrence
Mediocre Starter: Barkley, Jones, Baker, Love
Career Role Player: Crowder, Hernandez, Slayton, Hill
As with the tail end of the Reese years, I think a number of other guys drafted got a shirt on game day because the team was fucking terrible. And they’ll be relegated to bottom of rosters or out of the league soon.
Not a very impressive cast when you think of how many top 100 picks Rabbit Foot Dave had.
The Bengals had pretty poor drafting prior to Burrow (I think the Giants had as many pre-Burrow Bengals drafted first rounders on their roster than the Bengals) and they're in the playoffs - primarily, in my view, due to hitting home runs on Burrow and Chase.
I think Thomas can get to a Pro Bowl level. But I don't think there's meaningful ROI on our draft picks outside of him. Ojulari and McKinney look good and can be pieces, but we desperately need elite talent.
They ran the personnel department and are
Also owners.
Why do we never hear them speak? They are never held accountable.
+1 more than fair