Buried gem in this article...
| Those changes will be evaluated on the scoreboard, of course, which has been most unkind to the Giants for the better part of a decade. One team official recently said, “I want to know how the f–k we ended up in this position” after winning that second Manning-Tom Coughlin Super Bowl. Schoen was hired to figure that out, and nothing about how he is judged will be, you know, collaborative. |
Joe Schoen must stay available, accountable as new face of Giants’ organization - (
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My money is on Kate Mara. ;)
That's not the explanation. That's just re-statingnthe problem.
The explanation is in how they forgot how to draft good players.
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That would be my guess as to who said that.
My money is on Kate Mara. ;)
I volunteer to thoroughly dig deep into this 😂
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then count how many players made it to second contracts here or anywhere else.
That's not the explanation. That's just re-statingnthe problem.
The explanation is in how they forgot how to draft good players.
it's not that hard to connect the dots - whose primary responsibility was overseeing those drafts and got panic promoted to be the 2nd most senior title in the FO in 2013 when he started getting GM interviews (and yet hasn't worked for a team or been interviewed since getting fired in 2017)?
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In comment 15566572 Eric on Li said:
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then count how many players made it to second contracts here or anywhere else.
That's not the explanation. That's just re-statingnthe problem.
The explanation is in how they forgot how to draft good players.
it's not that hard to connect the dots - whose primary responsibility was overseeing those drafts and got panic promoted to be the 2nd most senior title in the FO in 2013 when he started getting GM interviews (and yet hasn't worked for a team or been interviewed since getting fired in 2017)?
Can't be the entire problem. They've had some limited successes since, but drafts from 2017-forward haven't actually been much better.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I would not be surprised if Mara and Tisch didn’t like the idea of having to manage Harbaugh and quickly decided aga8nst Horizonte based on that. Could also have been a matter of Horitz wanting Harbaugh but not be8ng able to tell them “I can get him here.”
Both Reese and Gettleman did horrible jobs general managing this team over the last 10 years.
It’s the kind of conversation you’d like to have where nobody is around…
*Uninspiring free agent signings versus price tag
*Plenty of injuries, and career derailing ones at that
*Desperate and inexperienced coaching
*Declining Eli
And last but not least...
*Awful player evaluations and lack of development on the OL
out of the entire 2011 + 2012 drafts only 1 player made it to a second contract anywhere in the NFL (prince). The near entirety of those 2 drafts disappeared from the NFL like a fart in the wind. literally throwing darts at a board would have worked out better. People call Barkley a bust and he scored more TD's in just his rookie year than these 2 full drafts combined (11 career tds between Randle, Wilson, Robinson, Jernigan, Scott).
the 5 drafts between 2013-2017 were only slightly better, and basically only due to OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson.
Pugh and Shepard spent most of their NYG careers hurt. The rest were either malcontents or rotation players or both (Flowers, Apple, Hankins).
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The Giants drafted a number of players who stuck around the league during that time. It’s a combination of who they drafted, but also how they coached them.
out of the entire 2011 + 2012 drafts only 1 player made it to a second contract anywhere in the NFL (prince). The near entirety of those 2 drafts disappeared from the NFL like a fart in the wind. literally throwing darts at a board would have worked out better. People call Barkley a bust and he scored more TD's in just his rookie year than these 2 full drafts combined (11 career tds between Randle, Wilson, Robinson, Jernigan, Scott).
the 5 drafts between 2013-2017 were only slightly better, and basically only due to OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson.
Pugh and Shepard spent most of their NYG careers hurt. The rest were either malcontents or rotation players or both (Flowers, Apple, Hankins).
You are exactly right. The 2011 Draft was the knock down punch for the entire 2010s, and the next Draft in 2012 ensured the Giants never got off the mat.
Can't be the entire problem. They've had some limited successes since, but drafts from 2017-forward haven't actually been much better.
the draft is the single biggest talent pipeline for every NFL team so that's a big problem to have. it wasn't the only problem but it's a near-fatal problem on it's own. 1 guy doesn't decide the draft but the buck stops with leadership and they had the wrong leadership (and likely a lot of the wrong scouts under him). Finding Giants made it pretty clear that they were trotting out some well after their expiration dates.
2018 on have been a lot better, especially 2020/2021 so far. It's obviously still early and injuries are always a risk even with good picks but Lawrence, Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari are a light years ahead of what the prior few year haul was on the roster in 2018 (flowers, apple, tomlinson, engram). We'll see what happens with jones/toney/the extra first this year but even if you only count the first part of that group that's proven they can stay on the field productively it's well ahead of the 15/16/17 drafts.
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In comment 15566593 christian said:
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The Giants drafted a number of players who stuck around the league during that time. It’s a combination of who they drafted, but also how they coached them.
out of the entire 2011 + 2012 drafts only 1 player made it to a second contract anywhere in the NFL (prince). The near entirety of those 2 drafts disappeared from the NFL like a fart in the wind. literally throwing darts at a board would have worked out better. People call Barkley a bust and he scored more TD's in just his rookie year than these 2 full drafts combined (11 career tds between Randle, Wilson, Robinson, Jernigan, Scott).
the 5 drafts between 2013-2017 were only slightly better, and basically only due to OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson.
Pugh and Shepard spent most of their NYG careers hurt. The rest were either malcontents or rotation players or both (Flowers, Apple, Hankins).
You are exactly right. The 2011 Draft was the knock down punch for the entire 2010s, and the next Draft in 2012 ensured the Giants never got off the mat.
whiffing on the 2011 and 2012 drafts, while the OL crumbled in tandem, is what forced everything after that moment. The reaches for Pugh/Flowers in 2013/2105, the bad FA deals for Schwartz, Jerry, 2 years of desperately starting Bobby Hart at RT.
assuming Engram walks they went 1 for 7 on first round picks getting to their 2nd contracts between 2011-2017 (with the 1 being OBJ who got traded).
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be
earned with wins.
Excellent post!
By 2013 it was a crisis and Reese started reaching for players that weren’t worthy of their draft slots. Plus more lousy FA signings.
Then when Gettleman came in he went right back to the “Giants Way” — late round picks, UDFAs, free agents and the occasional high draft pick.
Agreed. It's a combo of horrible drafting and terrible coaching since Tom Coughlin was shown the door. I often wonder what would have been if they kept Coughlin with that defensive spend in 2016. Or even if they had canned Reese and Coughlin together. And clearly Gettleman was not the answer... lol (CRY)
It’s the kind of conversation you’d like to have where nobody is around…
The closest we'll ever get is the bit of frustration he expressed when asked about the spending spree that Reese went on after Coughlin was out the door. He pointed out that everybody knows you aren't going to win without a quality defense.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
of all the candidates he seems to be the only one who wasn't interviewed by anyone else - this year or prior. not sure if that's because he's turned others down or just hasn't been in demand for some reason but that seemed a bit of a flag on his candidacy. Schoen and Peters in particular came very close to getting GM jobs previously so from purely that vantage point I dont think mara got hood winked as much as just made a chalk pick.
I'm all for Harbaugh but there's a big difference between him and Wink, as evidenced by the firing.
I'd still be all for Harbough because the record speaks for itself. But he's also been out of the NFL since 2014 and known to be somewhat volatile. He'd still be at the top of my list right next to Flores, but like Flores there'd be some questions to answer before hiring him. and if Schoen is truly casting a wide net I don't know why he wouldn't make the call if harbough is interested as rumored.
The 2011 draft was very bad. The 2012 draft arguably the same, although Wilson and Randle most certainly would have stayed in the league if not for injuries. No argument there. Terrible.
From 2013 - 2017 the Giants drafted a bunch of players who stuck around the NFL. Pugh, Hankins, Kennard, Richburg, Beckham, Hart, Collins, Flowers, Goodson, Shepard, Apple, Gallman, Tomlinson, Engram.
Again, I’m not saying that’s an impressive group. Just that they belonged in the NFL.
I’m happy to wager a trip to the moon, if we have this same conversation in 2027, Gettleman’s 2018 - 2020 drafts look about the same.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I think you are reading into it too much. If Hortiz was the best candidate the Giants would have gone that direction, but it sounded like he wasn’t. Additionally, even if they thought Harbaugh was better than Flores/Daboll, maybe they could not get the assurances that Harbaugh will go wherever Hortiz is hired. Then it becomes is a lesser GM worth it if we can’t get his top coaching choice or is the difference in GM quality larger than the difference of Harbaugh versus the field.
When Cruz suffered that devastating injury - he worked his ass off to get back. Reese and the boys felt he would be a good fit as an outside WR still. So in the draft they decided a slot WR, Sterling Shepard, would be the ideal fit with Cruz and OBJ. So they drafted SS instead of Michael Thomas - who even though is a nut would have been a much much better luck because Cruz was terrible as an outside WR.
When Cruz suffered that devastating injury - he worked his ass off to get back. Reese and the boys felt he would be a good fit as an outside WR still. So in the draft they decided a slot WR, Sterling Shepard, would be the ideal fit with Cruz and OBJ. So they drafted SS instead of Michael Thomas - who even though is a nut would have been a much much better luck because Cruz was terrible as an outside WR.
Totally agree with this. SS is easy to root for but was clearly not the best pick there for us.
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That doesn’t get talked about is Victor Cruz.
When Cruz suffered that devastating injury - he worked his ass off to get back. Reese and the boys felt he would be a good fit as an outside WR still. So in the draft they decided a slot WR, Sterling Shepard, would be the ideal fit with Cruz and OBJ. So they drafted SS instead of Michael Thomas - who even though is a nut would have been a much much better luck because Cruz was terrible as an outside WR.
Totally agree with this. SS is easy to root for but was clearly not the best pick there for us.
Mcadoofus is also to blame, SS is more a WC type receiver.
That's not the explanation. That's just re-statingnthe problem.
The explanation is in how they forgot how to draft good players.
Do the Giants have a history of going with the best candidate in either their head coaching or GM searches.I have a hard time believing guys like McAdoo or Judge were the most qualified.
I think the Giants,or the Mara's,have a comfort zone,which is more important to them.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
Well Martindale just got shit canned in Baltimore so either Hortiz wasn’t paying attention to what was happening right in front of him or he wasn’t in lock step with the other decision makers there. Either way, not good.
That was the year to refortify the lines (at least start). Instead we got a scat back, another WR, Corner, measurables TE with the first four picks. Mind boggling. The whole OL and DL was on fumes. There were very conflicting ideas on team building imv. Then the drafts continued to be horrible.
The 2011 draft was very bad. The 2012 draft arguably the same, although Wilson and Randle most certainly would have stayed in the league if not for injuries. No argument there. Terrible.
From 2013 - 2017 the Giants drafted a bunch of players who stuck around the NFL. Pugh, Hankins, Kennard, Richburg, Beckham, Hart, Collins, Flowers, Goodson, Shepard, Apple, Gallman, Tomlinson, Engram.
Again, I’m not saying that’s an impressive group. Just that they belonged in the NFL.
I’m happy to wager a trip to the moon, if we have this same conversation in 2027, Gettleman’s 2018 - 2020 drafts look about the same.
you are reaching if the argument includes Hart, Gallman, Goodson, Apple as anything other than sub-replacement level players. Slayton, Baker, Connolly, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Love, Holmes, Robinson, Crowder etc. are likely to "stick around the nfl" too but what does that matter if they were never productive, reliable starters here or elsewhere?
the players who fit the category of productive reliable starters from those 7 drafts are who? OBJ, Collins, Tomlinson?
if only Lawrence (41 starts), Thomas (28 starts), McKinney (20 starts), Ojulari (13 starts) stay on track to second contracts then the list is already longer in almost half the number of drafts. And that list has the chance to meaningfully grow with Barkley, Jones, Toney, the bears pick, or someone currently unexpected (like Slayton, Gates, Love, Crowder, or Robinson).
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But I don't like that Hortiz has been identified as being somewhat of an outlier in his coaching suggestions (Harbaugh, Martindale) while the rest were all in lockstep (Daboll, Flores, Quinn, apparently Graham) and did not get a 2nd interview despite being highly regarded and from a model front office. I have a hard time buying the "he was rusty in the zoom interview" line that was reported. Rust or nerves has nothing to do with vision and ability.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I think you are reading into it too much. If Hortiz was the best candidate the Giants would have gone that direction, but it sounded like he wasn’t. Additionally, even if they thought Harbaugh was better than Flores/Daboll, maybe they could not get the assurances that Harbaugh will go wherever Hortiz is hired. Then it becomes is a lesser GM worth it if we can’t get his top coaching choice or is the difference in GM quality larger than the difference of Harbaugh versus the field.
Its absolutely possible if not likely, I fully admit that. but your post works from the premise that mgmt can identify the best candidate. My concern is that they cant and are still, if even to a lesser degree, bound by what is familiar and comfortable. Time will tell.
And the drafts from 2018-2021. How many of them are still with the team? How many are on track for second contracts?
They ran the personnel department and are
Also owners.
Why do we never hear them speak? They are never held accountable.
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then count how many players made it to second contracts here or anywhere else.
And the drafts from 2018-2021. How many of them are still with the team? How many are on track for second contracts?
20/21 I think will have a few players who make a longer term commitment.
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In comment 15566620 j_rud said:
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But I don't like that Hortiz has been identified as being somewhat of an outlier in his coaching suggestions (Harbaugh, Martindale) while the rest were all in lockstep (Daboll, Flores, Quinn, apparently Graham) and did not get a 2nd interview despite being highly regarded and from a model front office. I have a hard time buying the "he was rusty in the zoom interview" line that was reported. Rust or nerves has nothing to do with vision and ability.
I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.
I think you are reading into it too much. If Hortiz was the best candidate the Giants would have gone that direction, but it sounded like he wasn’t. Additionally, even if they thought Harbaugh was better than Flores/Daboll, maybe they could not get the assurances that Harbaugh will go wherever Hortiz is hired. Then it becomes is a lesser GM worth it if we can’t get his top coaching choice or is the difference in GM quality larger than the difference of Harbaugh versus the field.
Its absolutely possible if not likely, I fully admit that. but your post works from the premise that mgmt can identify the best candidate. My concern is that they cant and are still, if even to a lesser degree, bound by what is familiar and comfortable. Time will tell.
Looking at the names involved this time on the GM search, it did appear that the Giants branched out. Had I seen Abrams, Pioli, and Dimitroff as the finalists then I would worry. With how long the Mara family has been involved and the preponderance throughout the league of disciples of Parcells/Belichick, you can Kevin Bacon almost anyone with more than ~10 years experience to the Giants. I think with the failures of McAdoo and Judge the Giants were looking at those who had generally been finalists for other teams and/or occupy key roles evaluating talent for currently strong teams. They would rather get the safer double with someone like Schoen or Peters than looking at someone who is less of a football guy/gal and more of an administrator (Raiche, the guy from the Browns, etc.)
That was the year to refortify the lines (at least start). Instead we got a scat back, another WR, Corner, measurables TE with the first four picks. Mind boggling. The whole OL and DL was on fumes. There were very conflicting ideas on team building imv. Then the drafts continued to be horrible.
this is jmo but they (reese, presumably with ross' influence) became "triangle athlete" obsessed, especially towards the end with Engram, Apple, Flowers. In addition to those 3 Marvin Austin, Wilson, Randle, the JPP of TE's, Andre Williams all fit the profile of athletes more than football players. A lot of those guys probably had those exact words in their scouting reports.
OBJ and JPP may have fit the same profile to a degree so credit where it's due, this strategy did have 2 very high upside hits. But the misses were big misses, including those '15-'17 first round picks all in a row.
if you look at the pre-2011 drafts under Reese there weren't quite as many raw athletes drafted on potential, especially with higher picks. Jacobs, Barden, Beatty, and JPP fit that 'athlete more than football player' profile at the time they were drafted but not too many others.
Then in that 2012 timeframe they shifted from that. I actually think if you asked good football people around the league, "What happened to the Giants?" the response would be they don't beat anyone up anymore.
The 2011 draft was very bad. The 2012 draft arguably the same, although Wilson and Randle most certainly would have stayed in the league if not for injuries. No argument there. Terrible.
From 2013 - 2017 the Giants drafted a bunch of players who stuck around the NFL. Pugh, Hankins, Kennard, Richburg, Beckham, Hart, Collins, Flowers, Goodson, Shepard, Apple, Gallman, Tomlinson, Engram.
Again, I’m not saying that’s an impressive group. Just that they belonged in the NFL.
I’m happy to wager a trip to the moon, if we have this same conversation in 2027, Gettleman’s 2018 - 2020 drafts look about the same.
V'mon now christian, that bet is just stealing money!
DG's drafts already look like that!
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then count how many players made it to second contracts here or anywhere else.
And the drafts from 2018-2021. How many of them are still with the team? How many are on track for second contracts?
as much as guys who are 1-2 years into their careers can be on track I would say right now there are 4 on track (Lawrence, Thomas, McKinney, Ojulari). All 4 have started basically from their first day in the NFL, produced by traditional statistics, and generally graded well by PFF. Thomas and Ojulari play premium positions that are hard to find which makes them likely to be retained. this list is already longer than the list for the 7 prior drafts, which itself doesn't prove anything except "not as bad".
Barkley, Jones, Toney are high variance. i don't think it's a stretch to say it's within the realm of possibility that any of the 3 ends up with either the biggest next contract of any player selected in the last 4 years or dealt off this offseason. the first 2 are going into make or break contract years whether it's with the giants or elsewhere. all 3 have big health ?'s.
then there's a reasonably long list of maybes who have are still under contract and could possibly prove to be worth second contracts though i'd doubt any end up impact players. Slayton, Love, Crowder, Gates, Holmes, Robinson, Peart, Lemieux, etc.