Was Judge and Gettleman right

Free Agents than we sign. Great year to trade down also.

Schoen can't really fire the scouts now, but he surely can replace the Director of College Scouting (Chris Petitt) and Co-Directors of Player Personnel (Marc Koncz and Tim McDonnell). And he should. He can't be expected to make good draft picks or FA signings if he's the only one in the front office with sound player evaluation skills.

Whether the Mara Brothers allow him to move out little Timmy and exert real authority is the $64,000 question.

Because so many players opted out last year. The media was talking about this before the 2021 draft and how getting next years picks was highly valued. It wasn’t just Gettleman and Judge that knew this.

It's almost as if this draft didn't produce some wildly successful rookies because of COVID.

I should say.

An all-pro linebacker (parsons) and tackle (Slater). So, yea Gettleman and Judge shit the bed yet again on that.

In comment 15568632 SleepyOwl said:

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An all-pro linebacker (parsons) and tackle (Slater). So, yea Gettleman and Judge shit the bed yet again on that.

Team pass on players that turn out to be near PB players every year. But that was part of the reason why DG is gone.

In comment 15568617 No Where Man said:

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Free Agents than we sign. Great year to trade down also.

Comp picks, if we get any are not distributed until the following year.

no excuses. We will be in for long-time pain if it is not one of Giants’ best drafts ever.

In comment 15568632 SleepyOwl said:

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An all-pro linebacker (parsons) and tackle (Slater). So, yea Gettleman and Judge shit the bed yet again on that.

Before the draft some of the insiders (or so called) were writing that the team was trying to build a new culture, and that they hoped another team would grab Parsons before the Giants pick due to his off-field issue. They recognized him as being very talented, but worried he would have a negative impact within the locker room.

In comment 15568721 Beer Man said:

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In comment 15568632 SleepyOwl said: Quote: An all-pro linebacker (parsons) and tackle (Slater). So, yea Gettleman and Judge shit the bed yet again on that. Before the draft some of the insiders (or so called) were writing that the team was trying to build a new culture, and that they hoped another team would grab Parsons before the Giants pick due to his off-field issue. They recognized him as being very talented, but worried he would have a negative impact within the locker room.

That only partially excuses not picking Parsons.

No excuse whatsoever for leaving Slater on the table.

1st
1st (Bears)
2nd
3rd
3rd (Dolphins)
4th
4th (Bears)
5th
6th
7th
7th (Panthers)

In comment 15568740 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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That only partially excuses not picking Parsons. No excuse whatsoever for leaving Slater on the table.

Yeah, hindsight is always 20/20, but... Hard to argue against your point and I think had the Bears not offered what they did, Slater or AVT would have been the pick. Perhaps a case of being to cute or maybe they were looking at possibly needing to go QB this year(2022).

In comment 15568758 sphinx said:

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1st 1st (Bears) 2nd 3rd 3rd (Dolphins) 4th 4th (Bears) 5th 6th 7th 7th (Panthers)

I believe the Giants traded their 4th for Bredeson but got a 5th in return. They also traded a 7th for Billy Price.

I continue to forget we have the Dolphins’ 3rd rounder

The few things that he seemingly got right were probably his second choices and some other moron beat him to the wrong decision first...

I know we can get some quantity but quality? Not sure.

they didn't keep our kicker long enough for that to take effect.

so we have no pick in the 7th round.

they didn't keep our kicker long enough for that to take effect.

so we have no pick in the 7th round.

so it's kind of hilarious that when they finally did it everyone regrets it. if it's any consolation in 2018 they stayed where they were and took the rookie all pro!

Bottomline (imo) is they gave up #11 for #20 and #7 (and some other picks). By draft capital it's the right decision. Jury is obviously still out on Toney and #7 hasn't even been picked yet. sort of reminiscent of all the over reactionary bitching about the Eli trade for the first few years when Merriman was dominant and everyone thought it was a heist for SD.

also for all the talk about passing on 2 all pros it's forgotten that they'd both skipped the covid year. Of course there was still good tape on them since they were near unanimous top 10 picks but look at the top picks in the 22 draft and ask yourself how they'd be to be ranked without this past year's performance. Are Aidan Hutchinson and Kayvon Thibideaux in the #1 overall player discussion if they are entering the draft off 3 sack seasons? Or are they viewed more as gambles like Greg Rousseau, who had been a preseason contender to be a top 5-10 pick but fell to the Bills because he sat out. If JMarr Chase played and put up another 20 TD season at LSU does he get passed for Pitts? Or Trey Lance? Or Zach Wilson?

...I am not fine with using their 1st rounder on an injury prone WR with character issues and only one year of college production.

In comment 15568950 sb from NYT Forum said:

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...I am not fine with using their 1st rounder on an injury prone WR with character issues and only one year of college production.

that's 100% fair - I was surprised he was on their board too. I probably would have gone Rousseau for upside or Elijah Moore since he was viewed as a pretty safe pick. But the options on the board post trade down were kind of slim pickings.

Toney did look a lot better than expected when healthy so im not giving up on him but the 7th pick is obviously the key to the success of the deal longer term.

In comment 15568740 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 15568721 Beer Man said: Quote: In comment 15568632 SleepyOwl said: Quote: An all-pro linebacker (parsons) and tackle (Slater). So, yea Gettleman and Judge shit the bed yet again on that. Before the draft some of the insiders (or so called) were writing that the team was trying to build a new culture, and that they hoped another team would grab Parsons before the Giants pick due to his off-field issue. They recognized him as being very talented, but worried he would have a negative impact within the locker room. That only partially excuses not picking Parsons. No excuse whatsoever for leaving Slater on the table.

I don't disagree. The team didn't want Parson's off-field issues. But by passing on Slater it was just another example of where DG knew the issues with this team (OL & Pass Rush) but yet found another reason to go in a different direction. Hopefully our new GM, who has the picks to make a significant improvement, doesn't fall in love with a CB/S/WR and continue another year of ignoring the critical deficiencies of the team. For the last several seasons (and two prior GMs) there seems to be this belief that the OL can be fixed through FAs and late round picks. And although you can argue there are examples where this approach has work, it has not worked for the last several seasons for this team; its time for a new approach. Fix the trenches, its not exciting or cool, but it will result in a significant improvement for this team

In comment 15568760 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 15568740 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: That only partially excuses not picking Parsons. No excuse whatsoever for leaving Slater on the table. Yeah, hindsight is always 20/20, but... Hard to argue against your point and I think had the Bears not offered what they did, Slater or AVT would have been the pick. Perhaps a case of being to cute or maybe they were looking at possibly needing to go QB this year(2022).

I doubt Slater would have been the pick. The Giants under DG were into the term of "hog mollie," and with Slater there were concerns about his length and girth. Just like with Tucker, the Giants chose to move down for a reason. They didn't think he was worth the pick despite having an enormous need.

In comment 15568772 HMunster said:

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In comment 15568758 sphinx said: Quote: 1st 1st (Bears) 2nd 3rd 3rd (Dolphins) 4th 4th (Bears) 5th 6th 7th 7th (Panthers) I believe the Giants traded their 4th for Bredeson but got a 5th in return. They also traded a 7th for Billy Price.

So then it is:

1st
1st (Bears)
2nd
3rd
3rd (Dolphins)
4th (Bears)
5th
5th (Ravens)
6th
7th (Panthers)

Too bad shithead wasted two picks on Bredeson and Price. Oh well, at least one was a 7th.

Are we expecting to receive any comp picks this year? I’m thinking no because the team spent so much in free agency with KG, Jackson, Rudolph, etc. That would far outweigh losing Tomlinson.

In comment 15568935 Eric on Li said:

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so it's kind of hilarious that when they finally did it everyone regrets it. if it's any consolation in 2018 they stayed where they were and took the rookie all pro!

More hilarious that you think there is a BBI consensus on any topic, particularly the draft.

And then to suggest it happens to be on both demanding a trade down and everyone regretting this particular one probably is just another exaggeration for effect...

In comment 15569132 eric2425ny said:

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In comment 15568772 HMunster said: Quote: In comment 15568758 sphinx said: Quote: 1st 1st (Bears) 2nd 3rd 3rd (Dolphins) 4th 4th (Bears) 5th 6th 7th 7th (Panthers) I believe the Giants traded their 4th for Bredeson but got a 5th in return. They also traded a 7th for Billy Price. So then it is: 1st 1st (Bears) 2nd 3rd 3rd (Dolphins) 4th (Bears) 5th 5th (Ravens) 6th 7th (Panthers) Too bad shithead wasted two picks on Bredeson and Price. Oh well, at least one was a 7th. Are we expecting to receive any comp picks this year? I’m thinking no because the team spent so much in free agency with KG, Jackson, Rudolph, etc. That would far outweigh losing Tomlinson.

Giving up the 2 picks for a redesign and Price was a poor attempt to save the season and ran counter to the original emphasis on the extra value of having lots of picks in the 2022 draft.

With every pick. No more of “this guy is raw”.

In comment 15569136 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 15568935 Eric on Li said: Quote: so it's kind of hilarious that when they finally did it everyone regrets it. if it's any consolation in 2018 they stayed where they were and took the rookie all pro! More hilarious that you think there is a BBI consensus on any topic, particularly the draft. And then to suggest it happens to be on both demanding a trade down and everyone regretting this particular one probably is just another exaggeration for effect...

forgive this for being from 2018 since I know that's going to trigger a useless back and forth but it's the only article I could find memorializing Duggan's annual fan preference poll (not just bbi but the same general proxy). I remember similar results most years, including positive reaction to last year's trades.

Quote:

Trade back, Dave Gettleman! That was the clear message from Giants fans when asked what the team should do with the No. 2 pick in the upcoming draft. A whopping 41 percent of the 4,400 respondents to an NJ Advance Media poll want the Giants to trade back to obtain more assets. The second most popular option was staying put and taking UCLA quarterback Josh Rosen, as 23 percent of the respondents were in favor of going that route. Taking the best non-QB available (17 percent), USC quarterback Sam Darnold (14 percent), Oklahoma quarterback Baker Mayfield (3 percent) and Wyoming quarterback Josh Allen (2 percent) rounded out the poll results.

and not for nothing the consensus to trade back ended up correct even though they picked 1 of just 2 players from that draft named all pro as rookies. maybe the lesson to learn is it takes more than a year to accurately judge the results of a draft decision, especially in this case since it involves a high pick that hasn't been made yet?

i actually think the fact that Slater and Parsons became the 2 steals of the draft - 2 guys who sat out the covid year - sort of answers the thread's question. the 2021 draft had more uncertainty because there wasn't a normal 2020 CFB season to evaluate, including those who didn't play at all.
What should the Giants do with the No. 2 pick? Here's what fans want - ( New Window )

you do not win games by collecting draft picks. You need to pick players who can make a difference on the field.

If you pass on a player who can help your team this year simply to get another unknown pick for an unknown player next year... then that is just fucking stupid.

The ONLY way this makes sense is if you are going down just a few spots and you KNOW you are still getting the player you want in this year's draft. That was obviously not the case last year when we traded down and ended up with Toney.

out there and wanting to trade back isn't a surprise. I wanted Eli gone and still wanted a trade back in 2018 if they weren't going QB.

My point was moreso connecting everybody that is bitching to trade back with everybody that is bitching they missed out on Parsons and Slater. The commonality is just the bitching...not the same posters.

And there are indeed drafts where trading back for quantity over perceived quality is more than appropriate. This very deep draft of red chips versus very few, if any, blue chips makes that case imv...

i just think context matters (sort of like you just stated) and there's always tendency towards inconsistency and hyperbole. the knee jerk to thinking the trade down was a mistake before the 7th pick is made included.

to the point of the thread like I said I think slater and parsons being the 2 obvious regrets is sort of proof why it wasn't a bad idea to punt draft capital forward to 2022. the more tape there is on players the better. 2021 was a unique draft because there were a lot of players who had no tape or limited tape or extended absences (impacted play?) due to getting covid like Rashod Bateman. some entire conferences didn't play. it was a volatile evaluation environment.

had parsons or slater not skipped the covid year they likely would have gotten picked higher. Rousseau and Chase too. in fact as a general theory i bet 1 of the enduring legacies of that draft will be that the players who sat out got overlooked/underdrafted and that their success may lead to some players in the future sitting out if they are considered top picks like say Will anderson. pitts talent is obvious but looking back it seems insane to have picked him over jmarr chase right? is there any reason that happened other than recency bias since Pitts had a big year while Chase sat out?

the eagles traded up for devonta smith because they too wanted him over parsons/slater right? because he won the heisman and those guys sat out.

at the same level as you but can understand the perspective Eric.

Relative to trade downs and the recent NY Giants, I generally continue to favor a current approach with a bit more quantity because 1) their overall roster has been very weak for years and 2) allocation of core resources to come from draft over pricier free agency.

This isn't hard and fast for me but until I start seeing a deeper, more competitive overall roster, this is my view. When the roster starts filling out more appropriately then I will probably tend to lean towards staying pat and not putting quality at risk...

In comment 15569287 EricJ said:

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you do not win games by collecting draft picks. You need to pick players who can make a difference on the field. If you pass on a player who can help your team this year simply to get another unknown pick for an unknown player next year... then that is just fucking stupid.

If it helps us get a 2023 top lien QB it's not stupid.

Stupid is being stuck with no QB and happy in 2022 and in 2023 you are a 5-12 / 6-11 team and with no long term quality QB to look forward to.

That's what would be "fucking stupid."

and what is bemoaned for years with this team, I think Jimmy's point in his 3:04, stated slightly differently: Giants' drafting has been so poor that they are always dealing from behind, from weakness, and it shines harsh light on tending to pick for need, rather than--ha ha--fine tuning, like Chiefs and other teams with balanced rosters.

In comment 15569378 Jimmy Googs said:

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at the same level as you but can understand the perspective Eric. Relative to trade downs and the recent NY Giants, I generally continue to favor a current approach with a bit more quantity because 1) their overall roster has been very weak for years and 2) allocation of core resources to come from draft over pricier free agency. This isn't hard and fast for me but until I start seeing a deeper, more competitive overall roster, this is my view. When the roster starts filling out more appropriately then I will probably tend to lean towards staying pat and not putting quality at risk...

again no major disagreement. ironically enough i'd be open to most trade downs - except in situations where i felt there was an all pro level player on the board. that's why i've always been fine with the barkley pick even though it worked out poorly. he wasn't kijanna carter or lawrence phillips or even fournette. he was a day 1 all pro who would have continued to make an impact if not for the injuries. had he stayed healthy like zeke he'd have been similarly productive.

there have been more than enough problematic picks in the last 10 years that didn't make all pro teams for me to get too wound up about the few that did even though they each ended up disappointing in their own ways (obj, collins, saquon).

In comment 15569390 ColHowPepper said:

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and what is bemoaned for years with this team, I think Jimmy's point in his 3:04, stated slightly differently: Giants' drafting has been so poor that they are always dealing from behind, from weakness, and it shines harsh light on tending to pick for need, rather than--ha ha--fine tuning, like Chiefs and other teams with balanced rosters.

completely agree. i've been banging this drum on a bunch of threads so i wont go too deep but to this day I think people underestimate how bad the drafting was from 2011-2017. that period created a foundational weakness that cost this franchise a full decade along with john mara's inability to find the right leadership to turn it around sufficiently.

you can't correct such a long period of wasted talent acquisition because you can't just invent good core players ready for 2nd contracts. they did their best to try to fill gaps with the FA classes of '16 and '20 but the double edge of the FA sword hit them with Brandon Marshall in '17 and Nate Solder in '18.

In comment 15569390 ColHowPepper said:

Quote:

and what is bemoaned for years with this team, I think Jimmy's point in his 3:04, stated slightly differently: Giants' drafting has been so poor that they are always dealing from behind, from weakness, and it shines harsh light on tending to pick for need, rather than--ha ha--fine tuning, like Chiefs and other teams with balanced rosters.

Without question CHP. Well put...

Nobody brought up the picks are more valuable because Gentlemen is not making the picks.

In comment 15569801 Fred in Atlanta said:

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Nobody brought up the picks are more valuable because Gentlemen is not making the picks.

Only the real astute posters recognize that Fred...

:-)

It's a good year to have two firsts. Giants could also trade back and get extra picks for next year and still do well for themselves this year.

saying we need to get the QB more weapons when 2020 ended. That was the organizational direction. It didn't come from the idiot GM. It came from the owner who then left the GM to carry out his direction.

Build both lines was not the direction, get OTs and Edge rushers and that's the best way to help the QB was not what we heard from John Mara. That's why the Giants have lost double digits 5 years in a row. Nothing was learned from passing on Aaron Donald and Zack Martin when OBJ drafted or passing on Bradley Chubb and Quentin Nelson when Barkley was drafted.

In comment 15569842 arniefez said:

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saying we need to get the QB more weapons when 2020 ended. That was the organizational direction. It didn't come from the idiot GM. It came from the owner who then left the GM to carry out his direction. Build both lines was not the direction, get OTs and Edge rushers and that's the best way to help the QB was not what we heard from John Mara. That's why the Giants have lost double digits 5 years in a row. Nothing was learned from passing on Aaron Donald and Zack Martin when OBJ drafted or passing on Bradley Chubb and Quentin Nelson when Barkley was drafted.

Good lord Arnie...where do you think the Owner got that desperate viewpoint?

The idiot GM...

Just look at the senior bowl roster. It’s stacked!!!

Going to be a fun week.