several very average QBs look too good. His Defense also came out of the gates this season very flat and was a big contributor for the early hole they dug which just spiraled.
Luke warm at best on Graham, although maybe the Giants are doing him a favor to keep some buzz on him for other landing spots.
I don't see a reason to keep Graham at DC let alone a promotion
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
Graham and Flores will not have had a 2nd interview by Thursday night, so if either one of them is still in consideration, Thursday night seems unlikely. And yes, I know you said "could have"
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
Graham and Flores will not have had a 2nd interview by Thursday night, so if either one of them is still in consideration, Thursday night seems unlikely. And yes, I know you said "could have"
Here is the thing- doesn't matter if the hire Flores.
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
Graham and Flores will not have had a 2nd interview by Thursday night, so if either one of them is still in consideration, Thursday night seems unlikely. And yes, I know you said "could have"
Here is the thing- doesn't matter if the hire Flores.
Yes, if they decide he's their guy after just one in person interview, they could announce Thursday night. The same applies to Graham.
I'm glad they didn't dump him just because he was here and things were bad. The transformation won't happen over night and there will be an evaluation period. If I'm Schoen, I want to evaluate what assets I have up close before bringing the hammer.
Clean house, get someone else in. Culture change. We need an aggressive D not a D that is on the field the whole game so the other team can beat us by 100.
I don't have any strong feelings about Graham staying as DC or leaving. I've seen some defend him by saying that he didn't have the horses to pressure the quarterback.
I don't know if this played a role in our "bend AND break" defense, but how about if the strategy was adopted because Judge knew he didn't have the offense to compete and the only way to win games was to make the opponent go the long field and hope to eke out a win.
If that was so, wouldn't it add weight to Graham's value?
For those who listened his model is one of flexibility. Get us a difference maker on the edge, some quality LBs, or even an offense that can actually score points once and we would be seeing some different things.
that cant take any risks because the offense is historically bad to the point if the opposing team gets 10 points you KNOW that there is ZERO chance of winning is getting all the hate?
wow..
RE: bend don't break is not Graham's defensive model
For those who listened his model is one of flexibility. Get us a difference maker on the edge, some quality LBs, or even an offense that can actually score points once and we would be seeing some different things.
Graham was given better edge players than he had in 2020. He was also provided a better solution at the second CB position in Jackson and he had the availability of McKinney for a whole season versus his injured rookie year. His only real loss was at middle LB in Martinez.
His defense declined too much when it should have been able to hold its own or actually improve in my view.
I think Graham is a better DC than the numbers suggest
I don't love the bend don't break, nor playing CB's so far off the LOS but the talent just wasn't there. Not to mention, the offense just couldn't stay on the field so the defense had a herculean task. The regression from year 1 to year 2 likely was a combination of the Giants being even worse offensively than last year (incredibly) and the loss of Martinez in the middle who arguably was the most important player on D they had.
RE: RE: bend don't break is not Graham's defensive model
Graham was given better edge players than he had in 2020. He was also provided a better solution at the second CB position in Jackson and he had the availability of McKinney for a whole season versus his injured rookie year. His only real loss was at middle LB in Martinez.
His defense declined too much when it should have been able to hold its own or actually improve in my view.
While the names were better, Williams had a career year last year as did Bradberry whose decline contributed to the regression. Not to mention, they struggled to stop the run without Martinez and Dalvin Tomlinson.
RE: Graham with an underperforming defense that made
several very average QBs look too good. His Defense also came out of the gates this season very flat and was a big contributor for the early hole they dug which just spiraled.
Luke warm at best on Graham, although maybe the Giants are doing him a favor to keep some buzz on him for other landing spots.
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
RE: RE: Graham with an underperforming defense that made
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
It's possible but I think he's just a guy that the organization likes as well as the players so they're doing him a favor.
Schoen could be thinking if a potential good HC is on staff he doesn’t want to miss him. I would be surprised if he is promoted or retained. In a situation like this we need all new voices in the room.
RE: RE: RE: Graham with an underperforming defense that made
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
It's possible but I think he's just a guy that the organization likes as well as the players so they're doing him a favor.
Wonder if his interview with Pittsburg for dc was a “favor”
It's good to keep him on the payroll for the time being
whether or not you consider him good fit at HC or DC.
New regime will be taxed with evaluating in-house talent on a short timeline before the draft. Good to have a few voices from the old team around to help with the task and act as consultants.
Posters on this board are deeming Graham as trash. He never really had an elite pass rusher. He was devastated with injuries to his linebacker core. He had to do what he did, given what he had. Not to mention that the offense sucked. I know it’s Shoen’s show and he wants to put together a cohesive time on both sides of the ball. I am kind of hoping that Patrick Graham can be part of this as the DC and given the appropriate tools to work with. Just imagine what he could do if he had big-time pressure on the quarterback. I have a feeling that whether Graham stays or goes, He ‘s going to be quite successful. Remember, he was a hot commodity for a head coach position last year at this time.
RE: RE: bend don't break is not Graham's defensive model
Graham was given better edge players than he had in 2020.
That's a stretch. Who besides Ojulari? You can't rely on rookies to always be the answer to your problems and it shows in the pudding. Ojulari was hit or miss. He had better pass rushers in 2020 with some veteran role players. The difference was Williams was great in 2020 and not great in 2021.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Graham with an underperforming defense that made
Posters on this board are deeming Graham as trash. He never really had an elite pass rusher. He was devastated with injuries to his linebacker core. He had to do what he did, given what he had. Not to mention that the offense sucked. I know it’s Shoen’s show and he wants to put together a cohesive time on both sides of the ball. I am kind of hoping that Patrick Graham can be part of this as the DC and given the appropriate tools to work with. Just imagine what he could do if he had big-time pressure on the quarterback. I have a feeling that whether Graham stays or goes, He ‘s going to be quite successful. Remember, he was a hot commodity for a head coach position last year at this time.
More hilarious that nobody on the thread is calling Graham trash, but nice try with the exaggeration.
Just some with clear preference to move on from him.
Two years ago half of BBI was wringing their hands
worried that Graham might get snatched from the Giants as an up and coming head coach. The next year he has no pass rush. loses his best Middle LB, poor talent on the outside and at LB and NO complimentary offense to speak of AT ALL and now he is a bum...
the losing has made BBI far more negative than it ever has been and it has lost its ability to be objective.
Please lets have the worst DC in the history of the league
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
It's possible but I think he's just a guy that the organization likes as well as the players so they're doing him a favor.
Wonder if his interview with Pittsburg for dc was a “favor”
Posters on this board are deeming Graham as trash. He never really had an elite pass rusher. He was devastated with injuries to his linebacker core. He had to do what he did, given what he had. Not to mention that the offense sucked. I know it’s Shoen’s show and he wants to put together a cohesive time on both sides of the ball. I am kind of hoping that Patrick Graham can be part of this as the DC and given the appropriate tools to work with. Just imagine what he could do if he had big-time pressure on the quarterback. I have a feeling that whether Graham stays or goes, He ‘s going to be quite successful. Remember, he was a hot commodity for a head coach position last year at this time.
Forget about having a great pass rusher, they didn't even have a good or decent pass rusher besides Ojulari and as is the case with most rookies, his play was inconsistent.
Posters on this board are deeming Graham as trash. He never really had an elite pass rusher. He was devastated with injuries to his linebacker core. He had to do what he did, given what he had. Not to mention that the offense sucked. I know it’s Shoen’s show and he wants to put together a cohesive time on both sides of the ball. I am kind of hoping that Patrick Graham can be part of this as the DC and given the appropriate tools to work with. Just imagine what he could do if he had big-time pressure on the quarterback. I have a feeling that whether Graham stays or goes, He ‘s going to be quite successful. Remember, he was a hot commodity for a head coach position last year at this time.
I agree. I wonder if the scheduling of Daboll on Tuesday means he hangs around to meet & talk to Graham on Wednesday to get a feel for his coaching beliefs.I'd be amazed if it isn't Daboll as HC by the end of the week & then it's a rush to bring in the best people to make up his staff!
I agree. I wonder if the scheduling of Daboll on Tuesday means he hangs around to meet & talk to Graham on Wednesday to get a feel for his coaching beliefs.I'd be amazed if it isn't Daboll as HC by the end of the week & then it's a rush to bring in the best people to make up his staff!
Graham and Daboll are friends apparently from their time together in NE so it's entirely possible they've already discussed him potentially staying on which is where the buzz is coming from.
If Graham was running our D on his own in Y2 or was he running a conservative D under JJ direction in line with JJs conservative style , knowing Judge had apparently NO confidence in his O so he cowered in the corner on both sides of the ball?
RE: Please lets have the worst DC in the history of the league
2020 defense was very good and we stayed healthy minus the injury to Carter.
2021 wasn't a great year especially with Carter working back, Martinez going down, the loss of Tomlinson to FA.
The soft zone coverage thing was maddening especially with Adore out there. He is a man coverage guy. We weren't aggressive enough with our talented DB's.
But if we had an offense that could score and get a lead the defensive play calls may have been much different.
I don't have any strong feelings about Graham staying as DC or leaving. I've seen some defend him by saying that he didn't have the horses to pressure the quarterback.
This has been the narrative all year. But unlike most, I believe there was talent on defense. There was some talent along the Dline and some in the secondary. League leading talent - no. Premier Edge - no. But enough to do better than they did. There were few stunts and very little complexity to the rush. There were games where the opposing team was having trouble with stunts in previous games, but Graham rushed a straight 4 or 3 man package each time - without stunts.
When you let the other rack up gains of 5 to 10 yards you end the game with fewer points against and you might be tempted to say: 'the defense held up despite no talent.' They didn't. They just made the opposing team take extra plays and time. You can't have a DC who concedes 2 and 3 by playing everyone 15 yards off the ball.
I initially thought only Graham schemed this way but after watching other teams, I know even some of the best defenses run a 2 high safety look. The difference is that they play tighter at the corners or disguise it so that you don't know when the corners will be tight or loose in their zones. Graham had everyone playing loose, all day. No good.
I think he is a compelling figure and by all accounts he is very smart or brilliant. But I really wouldn't want him back as DC let alone HC. I wish him the best and hope he lands somewhere good.
Posters on this board are deeming Graham as trash. He never really had an elite pass rusher. He was devastated with injuries to his linebacker core. He had to do what he did, given what he had. Not to mention that the offense sucked. I know it’s Shoen’s show and he wants to put together a cohesive time on both sides of the ball. I am kind of hoping that Patrick Graham can be part of this as the DC and given the appropriate tools to work with. Just imagine what he could do if he had big-time pressure on the quarterback. I have a feeling that whether Graham stays or goes, He ‘s going to be quite successful. Remember, he was a hot commodity for a head coach position last year at this time.
More hilarious that nobody on the thread is calling Graham trash, but nice try with the exaggeration.
Just some with clear preference to move on from him.
Yes there are some trashing him. Read the post. There are a lot of absolutes on this board. I hear let’s blow it up and get rid of everybody. Take the keepers and build with them. There’s too much Cro-Magnon man thinking around here.
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
✔
@art_stapleton
#Giants HC search
Brian Daboll 🗽 today 🔥
Brian Flores, Thursday 🗓️
Patrick Graham, Wednesday 🗓️
Dan Quinn 🏢🗽 ✅
Leslie Frazier 💻✅
Lou Anarumo 💻✅
Luke warm at best on Graham, although maybe the Giants are doing him a favor to keep some buzz on him for other landing spots.
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
Graham and Flores will not have had a 2nd interview by Thursday night, so if either one of them is still in consideration, Thursday night seems unlikely. And yes, I know you said "could have"
Quote:
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
Graham and Flores will not have had a 2nd interview by Thursday night, so if either one of them is still in consideration, Thursday night seems unlikely. And yes, I know you said "could have"
Here is the thing- doesn't matter if the hire Flores.
Quote:
In comment 15573390 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Dan Duggan
✔
@DDuggan21
Daboll: Today
Graham: Wednesday
Flores: Thursday
Could have a coach by Thursday night, or if they follow the GM timeline, Friday morning
Graham and Flores will not have had a 2nd interview by Thursday night, so if either one of them is still in consideration, Thursday night seems unlikely. And yes, I know you said "could have"
Here is the thing- doesn't matter if the hire Flores.
Yes, if they decide he's their guy after just one in person interview, they could announce Thursday night. The same applies to Graham.
all the best of luck on some other team.
I don't know if this played a role in our "bend AND break" defense, but how about if the strategy was adopted because Judge knew he didn't have the offense to compete and the only way to win games was to make the opponent go the long field and hope to eke out a win.
If that was so, wouldn't it add weight to Graham's value?
Defense did not play up to potential
wow..
Graham was given better edge players than he had in 2020. He was also provided a better solution at the second CB position in Jackson and he had the availability of McKinney for a whole season versus his injured rookie year. His only real loss was at middle LB in Martinez.
His defense declined too much when it should have been able to hold its own or actually improve in my view.
Graham was given better edge players than he had in 2020. He was also provided a better solution at the second CB position in Jackson and he had the availability of McKinney for a whole season versus his injured rookie year. His only real loss was at middle LB in Martinez.
His defense declined too much when it should have been able to hold its own or actually improve in my view.
While the names were better, Williams had a career year last year as did Bradberry whose decline contributed to the regression. Not to mention, they struggled to stop the run without Martinez and Dalvin Tomlinson.
Luke warm at best on Graham, although maybe the Giants are doing him a favor to keep some buzz on him for other landing spots.
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
It's possible but I think he's just a guy that the organization likes as well as the players so they're doing him a favor.
We had Patrick Graham doing interviews over the summer getting us all hyped up for Lorenzo Carter. Fail.
The defense was the biggest reason why this season was over before the leaves turned. The complete no show they pulled out of the gate.
The way they gave up points before the half. Who can forget the defensive alignment down on the goal line in week 2 vs. Washington?
Judge made his own bed as far as his firing, but this would really bother me if I were him.
Quote:
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
It's possible but I think he's just a guy that the organization likes as well as the players so they're doing him a favor.
Wonder if his interview with Pittsburg for dc was a “favor”
New regime will be taxed with evaluating in-house talent on a short timeline before the draft. Good to have a few voices from the old team around to help with the task and act as consultants.
Wish him the best wherever he lands.
Graham was given better edge players than he had in 2020.
That's a stretch. Who besides Ojulari? You can't rely on rookies to always be the answer to your problems and it shows in the pudding. Ojulari was hit or miss. He had better pass rushers in 2020 with some veteran role players. The difference was Williams was great in 2020 and not great in 2021.
Wonder if his interview with Pittsburg for dc was a “favor”
I'm not following...
More hilarious that nobody on the thread is calling Graham trash, but nice try with the exaggeration.
Just some with clear preference to move on from him.
the losing has made BBI far more negative than it ever has been and it has lost its ability to be objective.
Quote:
In comment 15573630 KeoweeFan said:
Quote:
Is it possible that this is actually an in depth interview that gives a courtesy interview for HC but at the same time evaluates if he is still in contention for DC?
It's possible but I think he's just a guy that the organization likes as well as the players so they're doing him a favor.
Wonder if his interview with Pittsburg for dc was a “favor”
thought the same thing...
Forget about having a great pass rusher, they didn't even have a good or decent pass rusher besides Ojulari and as is the case with most rookies, his play was inconsistent.
I agree. I wonder if the scheduling of Daboll on Tuesday means he hangs around to meet & talk to Graham on Wednesday to get a feel for his coaching beliefs.I'd be amazed if it isn't Daboll as HC by the end of the week & then it's a rush to bring in the best people to make up his staff!
I agree. I wonder if the scheduling of Daboll on Tuesday means he hangs around to meet & talk to Graham on Wednesday to get a feel for his coaching beliefs.I'd be amazed if it isn't Daboll as HC by the end of the week & then it's a rush to bring in the best people to make up his staff!
Graham and Daboll are friends apparently from their time together in NE so it's entirely possible they've already discussed him potentially staying on which is where the buzz is coming from.
dude, go take some prozac
Some guys are better HC than assistants. I don't think Coughlin necessarily would have been a great OC but he was a great HC.
2021 wasn't a great year especially with Carter working back, Martinez going down, the loss of Tomlinson to FA.
The soft zone coverage thing was maddening especially with Adore out there. He is a man coverage guy. We weren't aggressive enough with our talented DB's.
But if we had an offense that could score and get a lead the defensive play calls may have been much different.
This has been the narrative all year. But unlike most, I believe there was talent on defense. There was some talent along the Dline and some in the secondary. League leading talent - no. Premier Edge - no. But enough to do better than they did. There were few stunts and very little complexity to the rush. There were games where the opposing team was having trouble with stunts in previous games, but Graham rushed a straight 4 or 3 man package each time - without stunts.
When you let the other rack up gains of 5 to 10 yards you end the game with fewer points against and you might be tempted to say: 'the defense held up despite no talent.' They didn't. They just made the opposing team take extra plays and time. You can't have a DC who concedes 2 and 3 by playing everyone 15 yards off the ball.
I initially thought only Graham schemed this way but after watching other teams, I know even some of the best defenses run a 2 high safety look. The difference is that they play tighter at the corners or disguise it so that you don't know when the corners will be tight or loose in their zones. Graham had everyone playing loose, all day. No good.
I think he is a compelling figure and by all accounts he is very smart or brilliant. But I really wouldn't want him back as DC let alone HC. I wish him the best and hope he lands somewhere good.
Quote:
Posters on this board are deeming Graham as trash. He never really had an elite pass rusher. He was devastated with injuries to his linebacker core. He had to do what he did, given what he had. Not to mention that the offense sucked. I know it’s Shoen’s show and he wants to put together a cohesive time on both sides of the ball. I am kind of hoping that Patrick Graham can be part of this as the DC and given the appropriate tools to work with. Just imagine what he could do if he had big-time pressure on the quarterback. I have a feeling that whether Graham stays or goes, He ‘s going to be quite successful. Remember, he was a hot commodity for a head coach position last year at this time.
More hilarious that nobody on the thread is calling Graham trash, but nice try with the exaggeration.
Just some with clear preference to move on from him.
Yes there are some trashing him. Read the post. There are a lot of absolutes on this board. I hear let’s blow it up and get rid of everybody. Take the keepers and build with them. There’s too much Cro-Magnon man thinking around here.