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Am i the only one ok with the OT rules?

GMAN4LIFE : 1/25/2022 8:59 am
I mean its a team sport right? The defense needs to stop the offense. I dont care if they are gassed or tired, its a team sport.


plus the defense had 13 seconds to stop the chiefs. sorry but its just dumb. Or maybe someone should cover Kelce and stop playing prevent defense.

before you know it, the game will be going on forever.

what are your thoughts?
.  
Danny Kanell : 1/25/2022 9:03 am : link
Since they changed the rule to what it is now, teams that won the coin toss are 10-1 in the playoffs. I think that's too much of an advantage from the flip of a coin.
The way to avoid that is handle your business in the first 4 quarters  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 9:06 am : link
.
Yea I agree with you  
uconn18 : 1/25/2022 9:06 am : link
I liked when they made a rule that a field goal can’t win it because that may be too big of an advantage to the offense.

But I think it’s reasonable to expect a defense is capable of stopping a touchdown on a drive that starts from the 25 yard line.
Rules are fine  
Bryanjints : 1/25/2022 9:08 am : link
If you want to switch to college rules great but it still takes a defensive stop to win. The 13 seconds was the time for your stop.
wouldn’t hurt to let both teams  
bluefin : 1/25/2022 9:08 am : link
have a shot on offense…more football is better
I'm perfectly fine with it.  
robbieballs2003 : 1/25/2022 9:08 am : link
I'm not against a change but I don't get the argument that both teams didn't get to touch the ball. I agree, play defense and special teams. I also didn't like moving the extra point back. I liked seeing fake extra points.
Had a debate about this yesterday with some colleagues.  
chick310 : 1/25/2022 9:09 am : link
Not certain a change must be made but if so, then the best options I heard were to either 1) just adopt the college format or 2) run like a 10-minute OT and whoever is winning at the end of it wins. If still tied after 10 minutes, then it goes sudden death.
If the argument is fans want more football, sure  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 9:19 am : link
add a whole quarter if you want.

But I see no problem with sudden death. You are give 60 minutes to decide the game. It's enough. As a coach, or as a player, you know on the front end that if you don't win in regulation, you are leaving your chances to a coin flip. Don't let it happen.
RE: The way to avoid that is handle your business in the first 4 quarters  
markky : 1/25/2022 9:24 am : link
In comment 15573431 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


The problem is that the team that loses the coin toss and then loses 90% of the time DID take care of their business just as well as the other team in the first 4 quarters. That's why they're in OT. The playoff winner shouldn't be decided by the flip of a coin, which is what is happening now.
RE: If the argument is fans want more football, sure  
Mike from Ohio : 1/25/2022 9:27 am : link
In comment 15573460 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
add a whole quarter if you want.

But I see no problem with sudden death. You are give 60 minutes to decide the game. It's enough. As a coach, or as a player, you know on the front end that if you don't win in regulation, you are leaving your chances to a coin flip. Don't let it happen.


The overtime rules shouldn't be based on the thought of "well you did this to yourself by not winning in regulation!" Under that mantra, why not have one team attempt a 30 yard field goal and if they make it they win?

I'd like to see them simply require each team has a possession in the OT, whether you score a FG, TD or anything else. A safety could also end it.

Watching a QB drive his team down to take the lead in the final minute only to have them not even touch the ball again and lose just doesn't sit right. The 10-1 record in the playoffs tells you the coin toss is largely deciding who wins the game which is a disservice to the teams and fans.
RE: Had a debate about this yesterday with some colleagues.  
Pepe LePugh : 1/25/2022 9:28 am : link
In comment 15573437 chick310 said:
Quote:
Not certain a change must be made but if so, then the best options I heard were to either 1) just adopt the college format or 2) run like a 10-minute OT and whoever is winning at the end of it wins. If still tied after 10 minutes, then it goes sudden death.

Not a fan of the college format, but 10 minute OT I could support for playoff games. Regular season keep it as is. And I’m sure there would be griping about coin toss if still tied after the extra period.
Everyone is quoting the 10-1 playoff record  
uconn18 : 1/25/2022 9:29 am : link
Can someone explain why the regular season record isn’t just as relevant?

The only difference is the game cannot end in a tie after 10 minutes in the playoffs, and that’s not what people are concerned about. They’re concerned about the first drive.

I don’t have the time to pull all the regular season data with these rules but I’m sure it’s not as lopsided as 10-1.
And statistically speaking you want a sample size in at least the 30s to show a strong trend.
I saw a lot of new suggestions  
Gmen1982 : 1/25/2022 9:31 am : link
I personally like the first team to 8 points option. This makes a touchdown only win if you convert the 2-point conversion.
….  
ryanmkeane : 1/25/2022 9:32 am : link
It’s not the end of the world if they keep the current rules, but the rules are fairly outdated at this point in the modern era. Just play a 10 minute period and let it play til the end. The team scores as TD based on a coin flip and then they just win? Seems a bit ridiculous at this point.
RE: wouldn’t hurt to let both teams  
Beer Man : 1/25/2022 9:35 am : link
In comment 15573434 bluefin said:
Quote:
have a shot on offense…more football is better
My feeling as well.
I don't think you can make it gimmicky  
Mike from Ohio : 1/25/2022 9:36 am : link
like the college OT rules. You should keep playing the game with kickoffs, punts, etc.

I think just making sure each team gets a possession levels the playing field. If KC goes down the field and gets a TD, the Bills get a shot to match it. If they don't feel their D can hold up, you can go for 2 and try to end the game. If you kick the PAT and KC goes down the field and scores again? At least you had your shot.

I don't like the 10 minute OT rule for the playoffs because you have to just keep adding one if it ends in a tie, and at some point you are just watching guys completely gassed and risking greater injury.
Keep regular season  
section125 : 1/25/2022 9:36 am : link
as regular season
In post season each time needs to touch the ball. Sunday night both defenses were spent. I guarantee that if the Bills got the ball 1st, they win.
RE: I don't think you can make it gimmicky  
chick310 : 1/25/2022 9:37 am : link
In comment 15573508 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
like the college OT rules. You should keep playing the game with kickoffs, punts, etc.

I think just making sure each team gets a possession levels the playing field. If KC goes down the field and gets a TD, the Bills get a shot to match it. If they don't feel their D can hold up, you can go for 2 and try to end the game. If you kick the PAT and KC goes down the field and scores again? At least you had your shot.

I don't like the 10 minute OT rule for the playoffs because you have to just keep adding one if it ends in a tie, and at some point you are just watching guys completely gassed and risking greater injury.


No, you can go to sudden death after the first OT period.
It is clearly not a fair system.  
Giant John : 1/25/2022 9:37 am : link
Don’t understand how anyone can think otherwise.
Def so  
Saos1n : 1/25/2022 9:37 am : link
They already changed it. Things quieted down for years. Now, they want more. When’s it end? When it’s a full quarter? Then injuries go up and they’ll complain about that
College Format w/ a few changes.  
NJLCO : 1/25/2022 9:39 am : link
Each team gets a possession and the ball is placed on the 45 yd line.
Then have at it. After 2 possessions and still tied you must go for 2 after TD.
Im fine with it.  
Dankbeerman : 1/25/2022 9:40 am : link
whats wrong with KC taking all the way down the field for a TD? Did the Bills have to play with 10 guys? Did KC get to start with a guy on 2nd?

I am glad that game ended on a TD insted of a kick but we cant just keep giving out possesions. So you want Buffalo to go down and score then what is it unfair to end the next time KC scores a TD?
I am perfectly fine with it  
KDavies : 1/25/2022 9:43 am : link
it is perfectly fair. If you can't hold your opponent to a FG with the game on the line, you don't deserve to win.
Its not fair to Josh Allen that the defense played prevent  
GMAN4LIFE : 1/25/2022 9:44 am : link
Defense to stop freaking Mahomes. 13 seconds... 13 freaking seconds.

sorry but when will it end? this is a team sport. i mean, people mention that if they score the td and 2pt conversion, they win. but if they can score that easy a td, whats stopping them from the 2pt conversion?

you settle the game in regulation.
RE: RE: The way to avoid that is handle your business in the first 4 quarters  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 9:44 am : link
In comment 15573475 markky said:
Quote:
In comment 15573431 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


.



The problem is that the team that loses the coin toss and then loses 90% of the time DID take care of their business just as well as the other team in the first 4 quarters. That's why they're in OT. The playoff winner shouldn't be decided by the flip of a coin, which is what is happening now.


You take care of business by winning the game. If it's a tie game at 0.0 on the clock, neither side did. That's what I mean.

In comment 15573484 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:


The overtime rules shouldn't be based on the thought of "well you did this to yourself by not winning in regulation!" Under that mantra, why not have one team attempt a 30 yard field goal and if they make it they win?



This is hard to reconcile sometimes when you see some coaches play it safe and close to the vest. McVay is notoriously prone to going turtle mode. In a sense, you can' do it to yourself. It's the playoffs. You've got to coach and play like it's your last stand, not play for overtime.
I actually think it should be changed  
Jarvis : 1/25/2022 9:48 am : link
Especially in the playoffs. Either allow another 10 minute period that goes to the end or give both teams a chance with the ball.

The fact is the only argument i have seen to keep it as is…is that it is “fine”. However, is it better? If you were designing a system from scratch I would think most would allow both teams the ball. Rules favor the offense a lot.
30 years ago, I really did not care  
Essex : 1/25/2022 9:51 am : link
both defense and offense had a chance to succeed. Now, of course, the rules are so bent toward offense that it seems wrong not to give the other team a chance. So, I am all for expanding the rules to. make sure each team gets the ball once.
RE: 30 years ago, I really did not care  
US1 Giants : 1/25/2022 9:53 am : link
In comment 15573557 Essex said:
Quote:
both defense and offense had a chance to succeed. Now, of course, the rules are so bent toward offense that it seems wrong not to give the other team a chance. So, I am all for expanding the rules to. make sure each team gets the ball once.


THIS

The current rules are better than before, maybe just a bunch of youths  
jamison884 : 1/25/2022 9:53 am : link
Imagine the bitching if it were back when a FG won it with sudden death rules?

I think the best NFL OT rules are pretty clear (see the list below). When reading the proposed OT ruleset I list below, just IMAGINE the amazing potential for drama using this OT rule set during the playoffs (due to the chance for multiple OT's).

I don't know current CF OT rules as I don't watch the games and therefore don't know if they changed since 2002, but go back to the double OT game in 2003 (see link), and that game was so epic using that college system, even I still remember it.

1. Keep the current first part: a TD/safety to proceed further into the OT period regardless of first possession; in other words, both teams are guaranteed a first possession, and one team has to score a TD to win. FG's are eliminated from OT scoring options on the first possession for each team. Therefore, the scenario would be: first team either scores a TD or doesn't (safety works on the opposite side too), and then the other team is guaranteed a normal kick-off possession, and must score a TD to advance.

2. After the first two possessions and either both teams failed to score, or both teams scored a TD, then FG's are allowed, but sudden death is still removed as an option for the first OT.

3. With sudden death removed, the OT period plays out to the end of the period - 0:00.

4. If still tied after OT 1, another OT begins, but this time, it is sudden death because burnt out players and injuries on both sides become huge. Loser of first OT coin toss gets possession first. At some point, a TD requirement in OT just has to end. We don't want to see a half-team of backups in OT2 because the starters are injured/gassed/cramped up.
Double OT CF Championship - 2002 Season - ( New Window )
10-1  
joeinpa : 1/25/2022 9:54 am : link
Coin toss wins?

This is what happens when you legislate against defense to the point you minimize their chances of getting stops against good quarterbacks in these situations
Also...  
jamison884 : 1/25/2022 9:54 am : link
I don't think the current rules are "unfair" as they could have scores more in regulation to avoid the tie and the defense could have made a stop.

But, I think what everyone wants is a ruleset that's "more fair" which is what I had in mind above.
Would We All Agree  
Bernie : 1/25/2022 9:56 am : link
that if the Bills were given a possession in OT after KC scored, that they also would have scored a TD to tie the game? If so, at that point, who here thinks the Bills would have stopped KC on a second possession? In the end, I think the same outcome would have occurred. So yes, it all came down to the coin flip, but such is life.
The Athletic floated a couple of options  
Southern Man : 1/25/2022 9:58 am : link
that were crazy, but kind of interesting.

Option 1: Team that wins the flip picks any position on the field (say the 10-yard line) and the other team gets to choose whether they want the ball there on offense or give possession to the team that won the flip.

Option 2: Both teams give a yard line (where they would get possession of the ball on offense) to the official and whichever team is farther from the opposing endzone gets the ball 1st.

Not that I'm in favor, think it's too dependent on non-football strategy.
Sy posted on twitter  
Snablats : 1/25/2022 10:00 am : link
The coin toss winner is 86-77 alltime in OT

So why does it need to change?

Buffalo allowed KC to go 45 yards in 10 seconds - whose fault is that? Buffalo allowed KC to drive right down the field and score in OT - whose fault is that?

Leave the rules alone
RE: .  
aka dbrny : 1/25/2022 10:02 am : link
In comment 15573422 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
Since they changed the rule to what it is now, teams that won the coin toss are 10-1 in the playoffs. I think that's too much of an advantage from the flip of a coin.


Agreed
RE: Keep regular season  
aka dbrny : 1/25/2022 10:02 am : link
In comment 15573510 section125 said:
Quote:
as regular season
In post season each time needs to touch the ball. Sunday night both defenses were spent. I guarantee that if the Bills got the ball 1st, they win.


Agreed
Every time things dont go the way you want you cant just change  
Rudy5757 : 1/25/2022 10:02 am : link
the rules. there are a lot of issues with adding more playing time. Rosters arent built for super long games like in college.

teams still need to play defense. Its part of the game. Buffalo had their chances to win the game just by playing defense. Hold a team to a FG and you get a chance.

letting a team have a chance also gives the 2nd team an unfair advantage in that they know they have to score a TD or settle for a FG to tie, so they have 4 downs to do it where the starting team really has to play a 3 down game and punt.

There is no magic solution, but the current system is fair imo. As the saying goes, defense wins championships. Buffalo played very poor defense down the stretch and lost because of it. The made a poor decision to kick it in the endzone. Hindsight is 20/20 but every decision affect the outcome.
RE: Sy posted on twitter  
GMAN4LIFE : 1/25/2022 10:02 am : link
In comment 15573579 Snablats said:
Quote:
The coin toss winner is 86-77 alltime in OT

So why does it need to change?

Buffalo allowed KC to go 45 yards in 10 seconds - whose fault is that? Buffalo allowed KC to drive right down the field and score in OT - whose fault is that?

Leave the rules alone



exactly!!!!!
In the playoffs  
Jerry in_DC : 1/25/2022 10:06 am : link
a full 10 minute period makes sense to me. The playoff QBs are so good that it does give a big advantage to the team who gets the ball first (so we're putting a lot of weight on the coin toss here).

I don't think there's any harm in going to a full 10 minutes. It's more like "real football" anyway, which is good.

I do think the current version is better than sudden death, because kickers have gotten so much better (as an aside, this is a big factor in the overall increase in scoring). But why not play 10 minutes of real football?
I'm with you  
Matt M. : 1/25/2022 10:07 am : link
All you have to do is stop first offense short of the galling and you get at least 1 shot yourself. I don't care how tired you are. The odds are not stacked against you.
You are not the only one  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 1/25/2022 10:12 am : link
Everyone wanting a change is basing their arguments on the Buffalo versus Kansas City game. But, what about the other games? If the 49er's kicker had missed the field goal and the score was 10-10 going into overtime, would you think the winner of the coin flip was automatically going to score a touchdown after receiving the kickoff? Or what if Stafford had not driven his team in 42 seconds without a timeout into field goal range? Would the coin flip winner again automatically score a touchdown and win? I think Brady might well have, but the rams the way they were playing might just as easily turned the ball over.
Buffalo played the prevent a win defense  
kelly : 1/25/2022 10:13 am : link
And it worked. They lost

They played to prevent a touchdown when KC only needed a field goal. KC had three time outs but Buffalo still left the middle of the field wide open.

Terrible defense.
Flipping it  
njurygiants : 1/25/2022 10:15 am : link
What are the benefits of the current overtime over the college overtime.

Take out (don't get there, defense should do their job ect...)

I think everyone would would the most fair option, and I think the data shows the coin flip is too much of a factor in the current system.
It’s fine for regular season  
eli4life : 1/25/2022 10:20 am : link
But playoffs need to change
Do the rules allow a team to play defense?  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/25/2022 10:24 am : link
If you can still play defense, then stop the other team.

Nobody said you have to give up a fg in 2 plays and 13 seconds or let them complete 8 passes in a row in OT.

Play some defense.

Don't hate the rules, hate that you blew it.
RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/25/2022 10:25 am : link
In comment 15573422 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
Since they changed the rule to what it is now, teams that won the coin toss are 10-1 in the playoffs. I think that's too much of an advantage from the flip of a coin.

It's too small of a sample size. It's under 60% in the regular season. And in the regular season, less than 25% of the teams that win the flip win with a TD on their first possession (so more than 75% of the time, both teams get a possession in OT).

And you have to have a better solution, right? Let's say that the rules were changed to require both teams to get a possession no matter the outcome of the first possession, and looking at the Buffalo vs. KC game, Buffalo would have responded with a score of their own, would anyone expect the Bills to stop KC on the next possession when they had two backbreaking opportunities to stop KC at that point and failed both times?

No matter how you do it, the team that wins the toss is either going to have more guaranteed possessions or will have the opportunity to dictate the clock to manipulate number of possessions in OT.

The coin toss is always going to be a major factor in OT because there's only one decision being made. In regulation, the team that wins the toss at the start of the game can either receive or defer, which means that they'll have an opportunity to get the ball first to start one of the halves. That's the only reason why the coin toss doesn't have as significant an impact in regulation. I don't see how you can replicate that in OT.

The only alternative I could think of is just having the home team choose (both in regulation and OT) as though they won the toss. Then it would be like baseball with the home team getting last licks. It would still be a huge advantage, but at least you can justify it based on home field advantage (and in the playoffs, that's merit-based by definition) rather than just luck.
RE: RE: The way to avoid that is handle your business in the first 4 quarters  
speedywheels : 1/25/2022 10:25 am : link
In comment 15573475 markky said:
Quote:
In comment 15573431 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


.



The problem is that the team that loses the coin toss and then loses 90% of the time DID take care of their business just as well as the other team in the first 4 quarters. That's why they're in OT. The playoff winner shouldn't be decided by the flip of a coin, which is what is happening now.


Ummm, letting a team drive down the field in 13 seconds to kick a FG is NOT taking care of business...
RE: Flipping it  
KDavies : 1/25/2022 10:25 am : link
In comment 15573618 njurygiants said:
Quote:
What are the benefits of the current overtime over the college overtime.

Take out (don't get there, defense should do their job ect...)

I think everyone would would the most fair option, and I think the data shows the coin flip is too much of a factor in the current system.


The college overtime is a gimmick. Starting a game at the 25 yard line is the football equivalent of putting a runner on 2nd base, or having a shootout. It's not the sport. And then alternating two-point conversions?
RE: Flipping it  
Snablats : 1/25/2022 10:26 am : link
In comment 15573618 njurygiants said:
Quote:
What are the benefits of the current overtime over the college overtime.

Take out (don't get there, defense should do their job ect...)

I think everyone would would the most fair option, and I think the data shows the coin flip is too much of a factor in the current system.

Coin flip winner is 86-77 alltime. How is it too much of a factor?
RE: The way to avoid that is handle your business in the first 4 quarters  
Costy16 : 1/25/2022 10:26 am : link
In comment 15573431 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


Or play defense and get a stop in overtime.
RE: wouldn’t hurt to let both teams  
EJNNJ : 1/25/2022 10:28 am : link
In comment 15573434 bluefin said:
Quote:
have a shot on offense…more football is better


100% agree with this for the playoffs, though not reg season
I’m ok with the OT rules.  
CV36 : 1/25/2022 10:28 am : link
.
RE: I saw a lot of new suggestions  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/25/2022 10:32 am : link
In comment 15573499 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
I personally like the first team to 8 points option. This makes a touchdown only win if you convert the 2-point conversion.

I hadn't seen this one, but it's intriguing.

If you have a team on the ropes, like KC did with Buffalo, maybe you do go for two on the opening drive and just end it. But if you fail, you leave yourself open to your opponent being able to go for the win on their possession knowing that the worst case scenario is remaining tied with the ball going back the other way, but you could also go for a FG to make it 6-3 and hope for a stop.

Interesting. I still think there's an inherent advantage to winning the coin toss (so there will remain a skew in the results due to the toss), but this adds some curious strategy options.
I'm okay with the overtime rules, too.  
Marty in Albany : 1/25/2022 10:33 am : link
If after an hour of play the score is tied,
1. it shows that the two teams are pretty even, and
2. there have probably been lucky and unlucky bounces and good and bad calls that have influenced the game more than the play of the two teams.

Basing the winner on the toss of a coin is just one more uncontrollable event in the game. At least it is 50-50.
I'm OK with them,  
Section331 : 1/25/2022 10:44 am : link
but they could be better. I think each team should get a possession in OT, regardless of what happens with the first possession. After that, first team to score wins.

With today's offenses, it's a lot easier to say "just make a stop" than to do it. Most teams allocate more resources to their offense, most teams have offensive-minded HC's, ad in all of the rules that benefit passing offenses, it is no surprise that offenses rule the roost.

"Just cover Kelce" is a lot harder to do when Tyreke Hill is lined up opposite him, and Andy Reid is one of the most creative play callers in NFL history (sometimes to his own detriment!).

Adding one more possession doesn't mean that the games would go one forever, it means they would probably last one more possession. You know make games last forever? Going to the college OT system, which some have called for. The current OT system is better than the one before it, but I think it would be even better by allowing the team that loses a random coin flip to have one more chance.
RE: I'm OK with them,  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/25/2022 10:54 am : link
In comment 15573694 Section331 said:
Quote:
but they could be better. I think each team should get a possession in OT, regardless of what happens with the first possession. After that, first team to score wins.

With today's offenses, it's a lot easier to say "just make a stop" than to do it. Most teams allocate more resources to their offense, most teams have offensive-minded HC's, ad in all of the rules that benefit passing offenses, it is no surprise that offenses rule the roost.

"Just cover Kelce" is a lot harder to do when Tyreke Hill is lined up opposite him, and Andy Reid is one of the most creative play callers in NFL history (sometimes to his own detriment!).

Adding one more possession doesn't mean that the games would go one forever, it means they would probably last one more possession. You know make games last forever? Going to the college OT system, which some have called for. The current OT system is better than the one before it, but I think it would be even better by allowing the team that loses a random coin flip to have one more chance.

Ok, but if this is the solution, does it remove any of the advantage of winning the coin toss?

Agreed, the rules favor offense. Important to note that the current rules also feel more unfair in a shootout than they do in a game where the defenses are dominating.

So both teams get a possession. Let's say they both score a TD. Now the team that won the toss gets the ball in an unencumbered sudden-death scenario. FG wins. They don't even need a TD this time around.

The coin toss would still be a huge advantage in this case.
I would change it  
crackerjack465 : 1/25/2022 11:23 am : link
both teams get a possession. If both teams score a TD, it goes again until one team doesn't score.

Example, if it goes
Team 1: TD
Team 2: TD
Team 1: FG
Team 2: TD wins, FG continues the cycle, no points, Team 1 wins.
Rule is fine  
youngd1974 : 1/25/2022 11:29 am : link
Play defense. Period.
My only argument against it is  
Pete in 'Vliet : 1/25/2022 11:38 am : link
Would anyone have been upset if they had to play an entire 5th quarter of football, regardless of score?

One more quarter, One more 2 minute warning and all the excitement that goes with it. If they're still tied then you can go with the sudden death rules. But maybe alot of these ties could be settled with just one extra quarter of real football. The kind of football that put the whole country on the edge of thier seats Sunday night.
RE: 30 years ago, I really did not care  
jtfuoco : 1/25/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15573557 Essex said:
Quote:
both defense and offense had a chance to succeed. Now, of course, the rules are so bent toward offense that it seems wrong not to give the other team a chance. So, I am all for expanding the rules to. make sure each team gets the ball once.


+1
Taking the Bills game as an example  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 11:47 am : link
Mahomes passed for about 150 yards after the 2 minute warning in the 4th quarter. I'm not making that up.

With stuff like that, you really have to ask yourself if the real problem was that buffalo's defensive coaching just couldn't hold up. The better team won.
I mean this is ridiculous.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 11:51 am : link
What's the point if you're going to play defense like this

RE: RE: 30 years ago, I really did not care  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/25/2022 11:55 am : link
In comment 15573830 jtfuoco said:
Quote:
In comment 15573557 Essex said:


Quote:


both defense and offense had a chance to succeed. Now, of course, the rules are so bent toward offense that it seems wrong not to give the other team a chance. So, I am all for expanding the rules to. make sure each team gets the ball once.



+1

Then the solution needs to fit the scenario.

With the rules so bent toward offense, giving both teams a possession and then going to sudden death if that's still a tie means that the team who wins the toss will get the ball twice unless they get stopped on their first possession, the same exact coin toss dynamic would exist.

If the point is that the team who wins the toss has a massive advantage, they'd still have that same advantage. Let's say both teams trade TDs in their first possessions, now the team who won the toss is getting the ball needing only a FG. And if the team who won the toss only gets a FG (or is stopped or turned over) on their first possession, then we're looking at the exact same situation as the current rules.

How does a guaranteed possession actually remove the coin toss advantage other than an appeal to "fairness" via optics?
Both teams shouldn't have scored ao quickly  
TheEvilLurker : 1/25/2022 11:56 am : link
Take your time, get close but don't score to waste time on offense. Give them the ball back with no chance to tie.
Some things that need to be considered  
montanagiant : 1/25/2022 12:02 pm : link
When comparing regular-season games vs the playoffs:

There is a completely different strategy employed regarding substitutions with each one. You're not rotating out your key players as much in a playoff game, especially during crunch time. That is definitely going to affect their stamina at the end of a game and play a significant role come overtime.

To me, it's about entertainment. Who doesn't want to watch another 10 min quarter in a game that has been a war?
Take a 10 min intermission, play a 10 min quarter where they have to go for 2 after a TD, and entertain the hell out of us. Is there really anyone that would not want to have watched 10 mins more of that game?

As per the rules KC won and deserved it. Yes, it was silly that the Bills couldn't get a stop with KC having so little time left but I just don't get why the NFL has IMO such absurd OT rules in the playoffs.
I'm ok with OT  
FJ : 1/25/2022 12:05 pm : link
I was rooting for Buffalo, but I am still not in favor of changing the OT rules. The rules that need to be changed are the ones that make playing offense too easy in today's NFL. Allow defenders to play defense again and we won't be in this mess where the last team with the ball almost always wins. The NFL is like basketball now. Bring back defense. Bring back real football.
RE: RE: I'm OK with them,  
Section331 : 1/25/2022 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15573730 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

Ok, but if this is the solution, does it remove any of the advantage of winning the coin toss?

Agreed, the rules favor offense. Important to note that the current rules also feel more unfair in a shootout than they do in a game where the defenses are dominating.

So both teams get a possession. Let's say they both score a TD. Now the team that won the toss gets the ball in an unencumbered sudden-death scenario. FG wins. They don't even need a TD this time around.

The coin toss would still be a huge advantage in this case.


No it definitely doesn't eliminate the advantage of winning the coin toss, but it minimizes it a bit. Even if the NFL was smart enough to adopt my scenario, you can be sure that people would complain about it the first time the losing team didn't get a matching possession. I get it, it's far from a perfect solution because there isn't a perfect solution, just less imperfect ones.
RE: Some things that need to be considered  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15573877 montanagiant said:
Quote:

To me, it's about entertainment. Who doesn't want to watch another 10 min quarter in a game that has been a war?
Take a 10 min intermission, play a 10 min quarter where they have to go for 2 after a TD, and entertain the hell out of us. Is there really anyone that would not want to have watched 10 mins more of that game?



There are people that would have wanted to play six overtimes who wouldn't ever get enough. It's entertainment, as you said.

But what's the old adage? Leave 'em wanting more?

We got an amazing weekend of wild games. People are going to complain no matter what because complaining about stuff on twitter has become america's #1 export.
Good pic TTH  
Jimmy Googs : 1/25/2022 12:21 pm : link
This was like easy pickings for KC to tie up that game.

There is prevent defense and there is nonsense like this that only resulted in Buffalo losing the game...
RE: RE: Some things that need to be considered  
montanagiant : 1/25/2022 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15573904 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15573877 montanagiant said:


Quote:



To me, it's about entertainment. Who doesn't want to watch another 10 min quarter in a game that has been a war?
Take a 10 min intermission, play a 10 min quarter where they have to go for 2 after a TD, and entertain the hell out of us. Is there really anyone that would not want to have watched 10 mins more of that game?





There are people that would have wanted to play six overtimes who wouldn't ever get enough. It's entertainment, as you said.

But what's the old adage? Leave 'em wanting more?

We got an amazing weekend of wild games. People are going to complain no matter what because complaining about stuff on twitter has become america's #1 export.

That is a valid counterpoint. I think you just make it sudden death after the first OT period and that would eliminate the game going on forever. But I do agree with the "Leave them wanting more".
How many of you would CHOOSE to kick in OT?  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 12:27 pm : link
Zero, thats how many.

How mad would you be if a Giants coach chose to kick after winning the OT coin toss? The nice way to describe it would be "unthinkable." If that is the case then it must be because there is a distinct advantage given based on pure luck.

If you would choose to receive the ball (All of you), then I ask you why...?

Your specific answer does not matter because it boils down to the fact that you know that it gives you an advantage. And so does every coach in the history of the league.

There is no way to eliminate all random advantages (ie weather) but this is an easy one.
RE: How many of you would CHOOSE to kick in OT?  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/25/2022 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15573940 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
Zero, thats how many.

How mad would you be if a Giants coach chose to kick after winning the OT coin toss? The nice way to describe it would be "unthinkable." If that is the case then it must be because there is a distinct advantage given based on pure luck.

If you would choose to receive the ball (All of you), then I ask you why...?

Your specific answer does not matter because it boils down to the fact that you know that it gives you an advantage. And so does every coach in the history of the league.

There is no way to eliminate all random advantages (ie weather) but this is an easy one.

But you still don't eliminate the inherent advantage because the coin toss only works in regulation with two halves and a full game.

Give each team one guaranteed possession? Great, now the team that won the toss is guaranteed the first crack at the first sudden-death possession and just as big of an advantage due to the coin toss.

Go to a fixed-length full quarter? Great, now the team that won the toss has the opportunity to work the clock twice to ensure that they can be playing for the win or the tie at the end of the quarter.

The issue is that the coin toss itself is inherently a huge piece of luck, but in regulation, all it does is decide which half each team receives first, not which team is guaranteed more chances to win.
You had plenty of chances to win in regulation  
Snablats : 1/25/2022 12:44 pm : link
And you still have a chance to win in OT

For the people saying the rules now favor offense so its unfair in OT - change the rules back so they dont favor offense. Saying "we changed these rules so now we have to change those rules" is ridiculous. When does it end?

They already changed the rule so a FG doesnt win it right away. Why bother having defense on the field if they no longer matter?
I'm fine with it  
TyreeHelmet : 1/25/2022 12:44 pm : link
But for the playoffs I would prefer just to have a timed "5th quarter". Probably make it 10 minutes but fine with 15 too. Whoever has the lead when clock hits zero wins the game.

I hate the college rules or any of the other gimmicks.
Lets do it up crazy style....  
GNewGiants : 1/25/2022 12:47 pm : link
Each team gets 10 plays from the other teams 40. You can kick a FG whenever you want. Home team gets to decide what to do first offense/defense.

Most points wins.

Bam!
The "You had chances in regulation" argument  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 1:00 pm : link
is a logical fallacy.
The rules have to be changed in a way so that  
Stan in LA : 1/25/2022 1:01 pm : link
The coin toss winner doesn't always choose to receive the ball.

As someone suggested, team 2 can always match the score (if any) that team 1 did:
Quote:
I would change it
crackerjack465 : 11:23 am : link : reply
both teams get a possession. If both teams score a TD, it goes again until one team doesn't score.

Example, if it goes
Team 1: TD
Team 2: TD
Team 1: FG
Team 2: TD wins, FG continues the cycle, no points, Team 1 wins.


This would lead to many teams kicking, rather than receiving. In fact, knowing what team 1 did, team 2 would have an advantage since they would have 4 downs to score rather than 3.
Basically, the rules have to be changed  
Stan in LA : 1/25/2022 1:03 pm : link
So the winner of the coin toss has a decision to make.
RE: The  
Snablats : 1/25/2022 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
is a logical fallacy.

No, its a fact
RE: RE: How many of you would CHOOSE to kick in OT?  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15573969 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15573940 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


Zero, thats how many.

How mad would you be if a Giants coach chose to kick after winning the OT coin toss? The nice way to describe it would be "unthinkable." If that is the case then it must be because there is a distinct advantage given based on pure luck.

If you would choose to receive the ball (All of you), then I ask you why...?

Your specific answer does not matter because it boils down to the fact that you know that it gives you an advantage. And so does every coach in the history of the league.

There is no way to eliminate all random advantages (ie weather) but this is an easy one.


But you still don't eliminate the inherent advantage because the coin toss only works in regulation with two halves and a full game.

Give each team one guaranteed possession? Great, now the team that won the toss is guaranteed the first crack at the first sudden-death possession and just as big of an advantage due to the coin toss.

Go to a fixed-length full quarter? Great, now the team that won the toss has the opportunity to work the clock twice to ensure that they can be playing for the win or the tie at the end of the quarter.

The issue is that the coin toss itself is inherently a huge piece of luck, but in regulation, all it does is decide which half each team receives first, not which team is guaranteed more chances to win.


Im only half kidding about this - eliminate the coin toss for OT.

Have each coach submit a "silent bid" on where they are willing to start their drive if given the ball first. The coach that bids the closest to their own goal line gets the ball first. If the bids are a tie (only whole numbers accepted) then you do it again but cannot pick the same yard line again.

Then you play it out under the current rules.
RE: RE: The  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15574051 Snablats said:
Quote:
In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact


Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.
RE: The  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
is a logical fallacy.


By all means feel free to support this argument.
Or to keep it simple  
Stan in LA : 1/25/2022 1:09 pm : link
Each team gets one possession period.

Then play football.
RE: RE: RE: The  
Snablats : 1/25/2022 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15574059 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 15574051 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact



Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.

Holy crap. The fact is Buffalo let KC go 45 yds in 10 seconds. The fact is Buffalo could have held KC to a FG in OT but didnt. The fact is the coin flip winner is only 86-77 alltime in OT, and most of that was when you only needed a FG to win! The fact is no one can complain that Buffalo didnt get the ball in OT

This is real life, not logics/philosophy class
RE: RE: RE: RE: The  
GMAN4LIFE : 1/25/2022 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15574089 Snablats said:
Quote:
In comment 15574059 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 15574051 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact



Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.


Holy crap. The fact is Buffalo let KC go 45 yds in 10 seconds. The fact is Buffalo could have held KC to a FG in OT but didnt. The fact is the coin flip winner is only 86-77 alltime in OT, and most of that was when you only needed a FG to win! The fact is no one can complain that Buffalo didnt get the ball in OT

This is real life, not logics/philosophy class



exactly!!!!!!!

you want a chance, tell your defense to stop them. period.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15574089 Snablats said:
Quote:
In comment 15574059 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 15574051 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact



Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.


Holy crap. The fact is Buffalo let KC go 45 yds in 10 seconds. The fact is Buffalo could have held KC to a FG in OT but didnt. The fact is the coin flip winner is only 86-77 alltime in OT, and most of that was when you only needed a FG to win! The fact is no one can complain that Buffalo didnt get the ball in OT

This is real life, not logics/philosophy class


I cant believe that I have to explain this to a someone with a brain stem.

The point is that you could say the exact same thing about any team that has ever play overtime in any sport so it is completely irrelevant when making rules for overtime.

By definition both teams played equally well/poorly so why should one get an advantage?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 1:21 pm : link
In comment 15574100 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
In comment 15574089 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574059 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 15574051 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact



Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.


Holy crap. The fact is Buffalo let KC go 45 yds in 10 seconds. The fact is Buffalo could have held KC to a FG in OT but didnt. The fact is the coin flip winner is only 86-77 alltime in OT, and most of that was when you only needed a FG to win! The fact is no one can complain that Buffalo didnt get the ball in OT

This is real life, not logics/philosophy class




exactly!!!!!!!

you want a chance, tell your defense to stop them. period.


You dont have to write period. The dot at the end of the sentence is a period.

Also, fine tell the Buffalo defense to stop them but why does the KC defense get let off the hook?
I don't really care if they change the OT rules or not  
BlackLight : 1/25/2022 1:24 pm : link
I'm just so godawful sick of the reductionist argument that a football game "was decided by a coin flip."

People who want the rules changed wouldn't face quite so much resistence if they didn't insist on insulting the intelligence of the rest of us.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/25/2022 1:31 pm : link
In comment 15574112 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 15574089 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574059 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 15574051 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact



Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.


Holy crap. The fact is Buffalo let KC go 45 yds in 10 seconds. The fact is Buffalo could have held KC to a FG in OT but didnt. The fact is the coin flip winner is only 86-77 alltime in OT, and most of that was when you only needed a FG to win! The fact is no one can complain that Buffalo didnt get the ball in OT

This is real life, not logics/philosophy class



I cant believe that I have to explain this to a someone with a brain stem.

The point is that you could say the exact same thing about any team that has ever play overtime in any sport so it is completely irrelevant when making rules for overtime.

By definition both teams played equally well/poorly so why should one get an advantage?


Conversely if both teams played equally poorly/well for 4 quarters, why should both teams get more time to keep playing equally poorly/well.

6 =/= half a dozen.

The motivation to NOT leave it up to a coin flip should be enough.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The  
Capt. Don : 1/25/2022 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15574152 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:




Conversely if both teams played equally poorly/well for 4 quarters, why should both teams get more time to keep playing equally poorly/well.

6 =/= half a dozen.

The motivation to NOT leave it up to a coin flip should be enough.


Because its the playoffs and you need a winner.

My point is that you cant justify giving Team X a distinct advantage just because Team Y made mistakes. Team X made mistakes too.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The  
GMAN4LIFE : 1/25/2022 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15574116 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 15574100 GMAN4LIFE said:


Quote:


In comment 15574089 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574059 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 15574051 Snablats said:


Quote:


In comment 15574037 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


is a logical fallacy.


No, its a fact



Facts can be a part of a logical fallacy.


Holy crap. The fact is Buffalo let KC go 45 yds in 10 seconds. The fact is Buffalo could have held KC to a FG in OT but didnt. The fact is the coin flip winner is only 86-77 alltime in OT, and most of that was when you only needed a FG to win! The fact is no one can complain that Buffalo didnt get the ball in OT

This is real life, not logics/philosophy class




exactly!!!!!!!

you want a chance, tell your defense to stop them. period.



You dont have to write period. The dot at the end of the sentence is a period.

Also, fine tell the Buffalo defense to stop them but why does the KC defense get let off the hook?
LOL i just noticed that.

They are off the hook because the Bills defense didnt do their job.

Again, if the change was made to a TD and 2 pt to end the game and the Chiefs did it first, Bills wouldnt have a chance. Then what? i mean when will it end.
RE: RE: RE: How many of you would CHOOSE to kick in OT?  
The Mike : 1/25/2022 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15574054 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 15573969 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15573940 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


Zero, thats how many.

How mad would you be if a Giants coach chose to kick after winning the OT coin toss? The nice way to describe it would be "unthinkable." If that is the case then it must be because there is a distinct advantage given based on pure luck.

If you would choose to receive the ball (All of you), then I ask you why...?

Your specific answer does not matter because it boils down to the fact that you know that it gives you an advantage. And so does every coach in the history of the league.

There is no way to eliminate all random advantages (ie weather) but this is an easy one.


But you still don't eliminate the inherent advantage because the coin toss only works in regulation with two halves and a full game.

Give each team one guaranteed possession? Great, now the team that won the toss is guaranteed the first crack at the first sudden-death possession and just as big of an advantage due to the coin toss.

Go to a fixed-length full quarter? Great, now the team that won the toss has the opportunity to work the clock twice to ensure that they can be playing for the win or the tie at the end of the quarter.

The issue is that the coin toss itself is inherently a huge piece of luck, but in regulation, all it does is decide which half each team receives first, not which team is guaranteed more chances to win.



Im only half kidding about this - eliminate the coin toss for OT.

Have each coach submit a "silent bid" on where they are willing to start their drive if given the ball first. The coach that bids the closest to their own goal line gets the ball first. If the bids are a tie (only whole numbers accepted) then you do it again but cannot pick the same yard line again.

Then you play it out under the current rules.


This is the best option I have seen - well played Captain and thanks for stretching our thinking here! GD is right that the desire to simply give both teams a possession does nothing to change the inherent advantage of winning the coin toss.

Getting rid of the coin toss and getting back to pure sudden death in overtime makes the most sense. And in this approach that you have described, teams would have very different bidding strategies depending on their relative strengths. You could imagine the Chiefs bidding much lower than the Bills and starting at their own five yard line perhaps. Then it becomes more of a "fair fight" given the strong Buffalo defense.

You could even argue that this might also be a better approach for both the start of the game and the start of the second half if they want to reduce the number of kick offs which they have been trying to do. So perhaps the coin toss is eliminated from the game altogether.

Good stuff.
I am fine with them  
djm : 1/25/2022 2:01 pm : link
get a fucking stop you pussies. Don't like it? Build a better defense.

All these changes we cry about and then in 5 years the same wads will be bitching that the games are too long or too legislated or too many penalties.

The bills made their bed.
I’m ok with it.  
BUgiantfan : 1/25/2022 6:58 pm : link
Everyone who says the offense should have a chance to respond give no mechanism for the game to end. Ok, give the team a chance to respond. They score. Now what? The other team scores again…then what? Do they get another chance to respond? It has to end sometime.

If the defense can’t do their job, they don’t deserve to win.
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