Vacchiano: Daboll is the clear favorite, but...

Mara can't help himself.

beautiful.

That John Mara, Esquire, is a real pisser.

with regards to input.

Seriously? Not saying he is bad, but why gamble on a coach who had communication issues?

to protect against any perception of flouting the Rooney rule?

if Flores gets the job, Mara had a hand in it.

Because if Daboll is Schoen's guy AND has other supporters already in the building and they choose Flores, it will have been because Mara pushed for it.

It's possible that Flores just crushes his interview and Daboll flubs his. But having seen both men speak, I don't think there will be a dramatic swing within either of their interviews that would shift the intentions the way that an owner's preference would.

is this real

If Mara truly will let the GM have control

TWO Belichick disciples? How is he supposed to decide this (I mean besides the obviously silly idea of assigning the decision to the football professional he just hired and promised carte blanche authority to)?!?!?

have input into who their HC is. I don't begrudge John or Chris or Steve Tisch having some input, I just think the final call should be the GM's. He is the one who will sink or swim with the decision, so he should be able to make it.

As an owner is pretty normal no?

It doesn’t supersede Schoen making the call

for having an opinion and you see what vacchiano is doing right? he says Mara likes Flores, so if they hire Flores he can now run with article after article how the new GM doesnt have power

In comment 15573906 JB_in_DC said:

Quote:

to protect against any perception of flouting the Rooney rule?

Conspiracy theories aside, this was literally my first thought.

In comment 15573911 Giantfan in skinland said:

Quote:

TWO Belichick disciples? How is he supposed to decide this (I mean besides the obviously silly idea of assigning the decision to the football professional he just hired and promised carte blanche authority to)?!?!?

I think Mara lied.

However, I agree with him. Everyone killed Mara for having GM candidates that Mara knew. He never opened up his circle. Now, Schoen seems to be doing the same.

Would be typical Mara to force a coaching hire on the new GM.

In comment 15573915 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

for having an opinion and you see what vacchiano is doing right? he says Mara likes Flores, so if they hire Flores he can now run with article after article how the new GM doesnt have power

Let's dig up some of your posts on Dolan.

In comment 15573906 JB_in_DC said:

Quote:

to protect against any perception of flouting the Rooney rule?

This really is a great point.

Daboll is the opposite of who John Mara wants, Costanza baby!

..."

Seems that this phrase is being overlooked?

I think it is clear to understand Mara's like of Flores. Flores is what he thought he was getting with Judge. He wanted to keep Judge. With Flores he will think he can build off of what Judge was doing that he liked. The difference is that Flores brings with him a winning record as a coach and has done it before.

I think if Mara likes Flores he is saying interview him and then the GM gets to decide who they go with.

I guess it's a question of whether he and Shoen trust each other enough that Shoen can hear input but make another decision despite that? It seems he has been guaranteed that, but that doesn't take away the potential sensitivity on the issue.

That said, you'd hate to have a situation where the owner didn't have an opportunity to weigh in, and you'd also hate it if the GM was afraid to disagree with the owner. Neither situation is ideal, but I trus Shoen to have the people skills to address this directly with Mara "I know you like him, we don't know each other very well, but can you give me your word that if I don't take him it won't poison our relationship?" Two grownups should be able to work this out

does anyone know what Mara thinks at this point? And even if he does, it doesn't mean that is who Schoen wants.

Click bait...until it is not.

In comment 15573925 Giantimistic said:

Quote:

I think it is clear to understand Mara's like of Flores. Flores is what he thought he was getting with Judge. He wanted to keep Judge. With Flores he will think he can build off of what Judge was doing that he liked. The difference is that Flores brings with him a winning record as a coach and has done it before. I think if Mara likes Flores he is saying interview him and then the GM gets to decide who they go with.

Let's at least be accurate: Flores brings a 24-25 record as HC. So he doesn't have a winning record overall, but does have one over the past two seasons.

He also brings a lot of the same issues that presumably led to Judge's ouster.

Kind of backs themselves into a corner when/if Daboll ends up being the guy. Similar to what they did when they insisted on Abrams getting the GM job. Can’t have it both ways.

In comment 15573932 section125 said:

Quote:

does anyone know what Mara thinks at this point? And even if he does, it doesn't mean that is who Schoen wants. Click bait...until it is not.

You think reporters don't have access to sources that give them some insight into Mara's preferences? I know you're not that naive.

This is clickbait or something like that. I dont believe Mara is involved in the HC decision until it comes to signing off on the contract. Not saying it’ll definitely be Daboll but if its not, it’s because the GM wants someone with HC experience.

In comment 15573906 JB_in_DC said:

Quote:

to protect against any perception of flouting the Rooney rule?

I don't understand. The Rooney Rule states an in-person interview is required to meet the requirements.

Saying you like someone in the media means nothing in relation to the Rooney Rule.

It does when everyone assumes Daboll is a lock which they do. It adds validity to the Flores interview.

In comment 15573928 Bob from Massachusetts said:

Quote:

I guess it's a question of whether he and Shoen trust each other enough that Shoen can hear input but make another decision despite that? It seems he has been guaranteed that, but that doesn't take away the potential sensitivity on the issue. That said, you'd hate to have a situation where the owner didn't have an opportunity to weigh in, and you'd also hate it if the GM was afraid to disagree with the owner. Neither situation is ideal, but I trus Shoen to have the people skills to address this directly with Mara "I know you like him, we don't know each other very well, but can you give me your word that if I don't take him it won't poison our relationship?" Two grownups should be able to work this out

Have you ever taken a new job with the promises of getting carte blanche to hire your staff (other than standard background check stuff) and then within a week having not only your boss, but the owner of the company suggesting to you which candidate he likes best?

Do you think that's a situation where the new hire is likely to feel completely comfortable with their supposed carte blanche?

I think that's the issue. It's not that Mara (or Tisch) is not entitled to an opinion. It's that maybe their opinion should come in the form of weighing in on the candidates the new GM chooses, rather than suggesting candidates to the new GM. The latter puts a very favorable weight on their suggestions.

In comment 15573938 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15573906 JB_in_DC said: Quote: to protect against any perception of flouting the Rooney rule? I don't understand. The Rooney Rule states an in-person interview is required to meet the requirements. Saying you like someone in the media means nothing in relation to the Rooney Rule.

There’s the letter of the law and then there’s perception. If it were to leak the Giants are locked in on Daboll and any minority interviews were pure window dressing, that’s not a good look for an owner who prides himself on carrying on his family’s legacy of being among the good guys in the league

Not sure if any truth to this, just spitballing here, but not beyond the realm. The Giants leaking stuff to influence public perception isn’t new

But, going ut of his way to share the opnoon to the point of influencing the GM is the pposi of carte blanch. It also flies in the face of fixing what has plagued the franchise for a decade.

If Schoen comes away from this and hires Flores 100% on his own, I'll be on board. Flores wouldn't be my choice, but I am trusting the new GM. However, if Flores is hired because that is who Mara likes on any level, then this is more of the same shit.

In comment 15573943 Sean said:

Quote:

It does when everyone assumes Daboll is a lock which they do. It adds validity to the Flores interview.

Yeah Mara is not going to want this to look like a sham search. He's sensitive to outside perception, and doesn't want his franchise or the league to look bad RE: Rooney Rule. Its named after his niece after all!

is any different from Mara? I mean it sure seems that Dabol has the inside track. Has Schoen ever considered anyone else seriously?

based on this. Really, you can't do better than to zero in on that reported phrase...many believe?

And this will be yet another good litmus test for all the resident conspiracy theorists if indeed Daboll is ultimately chosen...

Is the owner of a billion $$ corporation not supposed to have any opinions on who gets hired to run his business? Geezus.

If he really gave Schoen Carte Blanche what difference does it make? And yeah, Schoen needs to "cast a wide net". They should be interviewing every candidate out there.

Look at how these "beliefs" are established. It's like Daboll and Schoen worked together so "I believe" he is his favorite. Someone says "they believe" Mara likes Flores, based on no information, just some connect the dots guess, and we are back to "Mara can't help himself" nonsense. I'll say this with certainty --Ralph V has no inside knowledge on what Mara is thinking. Zero.

that Schoen is locked on Dabol

In comment 15573914 joeinpa said:

Quote:

As an owner is pretty normal no? It doesn’t supersede Schoen making the call

It is, but unfortunately Mara has the instincts of George Costanza

"See, John Mara has learned his lesson!" If he is exerting any influence over the HC hire other than as a veto based on character, this is evidence he is still absolutely meddling in football operations.

In comment 15573978 Mayo2JZ said:

Quote:

that Schoen is locked on Dabol

That's a fair and valid concern.

At the same time, the Giants must have known that when they hired Schoen? You would think.

I'm more concerned with what Peppers posted about Schoen being more a of a yes-man.

If it's Flores, then Mara forced him on Schoen. If it's Daboll, then Schoen was locked in on him because it's his buddy.

In comment 15573934 Sean said:

Quote:

Kind of backs themselves into a corner when/if Daboll ends up being the guy. Similar to what they did when they insisted on Abrams getting the GM job. Can’t have it both ways.

To be clear, everyone on this thread is guessing based on limited information. Absolutely nobody is "backing themselves into a corner."

In comment 15573915 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

for having an opinion and you see what vacchiano is doing right? he says Mara likes Flores, so if they hire Flores he can now run with article after article how the new GM doesnt have power

I dont think Mara has brought himself any credibility to use the "the media" excuse.

In comment 15573918 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

However, I agree with him. Everyone killed Mara for having GM candidates that Mara knew. He never opened up his circle. Now, Schoen seems to be doing the same.

this is such a bulllshit false narrative. mara kept trying to hire people he was familiar with who sucked at their jobs and were part of a losing organization. he wanted input and everything to stay within the giants family. but that family was incompetent and broken

schoen is coming from outside of that. he has someone he's worked with, who is successful and one of the top coaching candidates around the league right now. this isn't the same as trying to promote abrams or bring in EA for a sham process to hire his friend. nobody was going to fucking hire abrams or gettleman except john.

the situations are nothing alike

In comment 15573984 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15573978 Mayo2JZ said: Quote: that Schoen is locked on Dabol That's a fair and valid concern. At the same time, the Giants must have known that when they hired Schoen? You would think. I'm more concerned with what Peppers posted about Schoen being more a of a yes-man.

what did peppers post?

In comment 15573984 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15573978 Mayo2JZ said: Quote: that Schoen is locked on Dabol That's a fair and valid concern. At the same time, the Giants must have known that when they hired Schoen? You would think. I'm more concerned with what Peppers posted about Schoen being more a of a yes-man.

Really? I hadn’t heard that

Drawing up in your head scenario after scenario why they are going to suck. Maybe try getting out of the house?

posted this in the Whitt thread:

Quote:

There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

are putting their relationships/jobs with John Mara at risk since his favorite is clearly Flores.

Maybe they can get jobs up in Buffalo or for the Jets...

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

Oh, awesome!

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

Haha --and there you have it. Exhibit 32,820, LOL.

In comment 15573915 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

for having an opinion and you see what vacchiano is doing right? he says Mara likes Flores, so if they hire Flores he can now run with article after article how the new GM doesnt have power

+1

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

Now we are concerned the GM -- who hasn't made a single draft pick, FA signing, or coaching hire -- is a Mara Yes Man. The paranoia on this site is ridiculous. We'd have better luck discussing JFK assassination than football jesus.

In comment 15574000 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Drawing up in your head scenario after scenario why they are going to suck. Maybe try getting out of the house?

Being skeptical of an organization that has been at the bottom of it's peer group for a decade means people need to leave their houses?

It must suck for you that everyone isn't confirming your beliefs.

Schoen will make the final decision, regardless of input

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

Don’t agree at all with that quote.

unless it is for a BC alum.

there are about five posters on this site who I actively search for their posts because of how plugged in they are. Peppers is at the top of that list. He doesn't post often, but when he does, he has fantastic info.

In comment 15574014 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15574000 UberAlias said: Quote: Drawing up in your head scenario after scenario why they are going to suck. Maybe try getting out of the house? Being skeptical of an organization that has been at the bottom of it's peer group for a decade means people need to leave their houses? It must suck for you that everyone isn't confirming your beliefs.

Confirming my beliefs? And so what are my beliefs then, exactly?

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

I hadn't seen that. Oof.

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

that is the exact opposite of the way peters was described. peters was described as the talent evaluator in SF. peters was also my first choice as the amount of talent on that team is bonkers.

i think mara is an idiot but at the end of the day, they interviewed the top assistants from the top teams in the league. who else should they have interviewed?

And they dropped their pants to hire him in 2 seconds.

Not sure I agree with peppers assessment.

In comment 15574019 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

there are about five posters on this site who I actively search for their posts because of how plugged in they are. Peppers is at the top of that list. He doesn't post often, but when he does, he has fantastic info.

BBI may need to start having trigger warnings on threads.

"Caution! Opinions in this thread may differ from your own."

I hear his name a lot but if he is so popular you think he would be hired by now. What’s going on with Sean Payton?

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

So let me get this straight...was Gettleman a yes man without a strong personality, no experience and just did what he was asked?

Good lord...

In comment 15574026 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

And they dropped their pants to hire him in 2 seconds. Not sure I agree with peppers assessment.

I won't speak for peppers on this, but was Gettleman really a strong personality? Or did he pretend to be?

If you asked me, it was pretty telling how he hid during the 2021 season.

are significant changes after draft in personnel department will go long away to telling us what is what.

I'm willing to be patient to a degree.

In comment 15574020 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 15574014 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: In comment 15574000 UberAlias said: Quote: Drawing up in your head scenario after scenario why they are going to suck. Maybe try getting out of the house? Being skeptical of an organization that has been at the bottom of it's peer group for a decade means people need to leave their houses? It must suck for you that everyone isn't confirming your beliefs. Confirming my beliefs? And so what are my beliefs then, exactly?

That people are drawing up scenarios to explain why the Giants will suck instead of simply posting their thoughts on something reported by a beat writer, and that they do this because they are unhappy recluses.

In comment 15574031 Sammo85 said:

Quote:

are significant changes after draft in personnel department will go long away to telling us what is what. I'm willing to be patient to a degree.

Agree on this.

In comment 15574029 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said: Quote: posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy. So let me get this straight...was Gettleman a yes man without a strong personality, no experience and just did what he was asked? Good lord...

So John asked DG to be a total douche and Dave said "With pleasure, sir!"

In comment 15573897 bw in dc said:

Quote:

beautiful. That John Mara, Esquire, is a real pisser.

Why?

What if Flores is the best choice?

$.

And yes, likely a yes man. But this we can say on the basis of what we observed over four years he ran things here. Saying that for Schoen has no basis in fact.

But I did expect the new GM to be the main driver of the new direction. If that's not the case, that's a major problem.

I think the canary in the coal mine is Daniel Jones. If he gets a second contract, that's got Mara's fingerprints all over it.

In comment 15574030 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15574026 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: And they dropped their pants to hire him in 2 seconds. Not sure I agree with peppers assessment. I won't speak for peppers on this, but was Gettleman really a strong personality? Or did he pretend to be? If you asked me, it was pretty telling how he hid during the 2021 season.

Did he just pretend to be? You have to be kidding.

good lord doesn't even work at this point...

But hey, don’t stop now.

Let’s see what happens with Abrams, Pettit & Koncz. Beane blew up with Bills front office when he arrived there.

In comment 15574030 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15574026 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: And they dropped their pants to hire him in 2 seconds. Not sure I agree with peppers assessment. I won't speak for peppers on this, but was Gettleman really a strong personality? Or did he pretend to be? If you asked me, it was pretty telling how he hid during the 2021 season.

I guess it's possible, but he had this reputation from Carolina as well. It didn't just start here.

In comment 15574030 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15574026 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: And they dropped their pants to hire him in 2 seconds. Not sure I agree with peppers assessment. I won't speak for peppers on this, but was Gettleman really a strong personality? Or did he pretend to be? If you asked me, it was pretty telling how he hid during the 2021 season.

Always thought one reason Gettleman got the job was that he told John and Chris what they wanted to hear - that the team could compete with Eli at QB in 2018 by adding a few weapons and bringing in new coaches.

In comment 15574036 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

$.

Agreed. Let me toss out one of my favorite BBIisms...

"you can't make this stuff up"

Mara - "You have total decision making control, outside of your most important decision. I'll be making that decision for you"

In comment 15574036 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

$.

Mara meddling in front office decisions (which almost of all us can agree he did as recently as this past year) is an outlandish conspiracy theory?

Help me out with that one?

In comment 15574019 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

there are about five posters on this site who I actively search for their posts because of how plugged in they are. Peppers is at the top of that list. He doesn't post often, but when he does, he has fantastic info.

He had a very interesting post on another thread today about the GM process. Very enlightening. Suggested Schoen may be more of a "yes" man...

there is a difference between owning a room and acting like you own the room. We all know people like that.

Where was Gettleman during the 2021 season? Mara either hid him or he cowered in the corner.

I was read dozens and dozens of posts on BBI last year that Judge was running the show now and Gettleman was just a figurehead. You can't have it both ways.

In comment 15574032 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15574020 UberAlias said: Quote: In comment 15574014 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: In comment 15574000 UberAlias said: Quote: Drawing up in your head scenario after scenario why they are going to suck. Maybe try getting out of the house? Being skeptical of an organization that has been at the bottom of it's peer group for a decade means people need to leave their houses? It must suck for you that everyone isn't confirming your beliefs. Confirming my beliefs? And so what are my beliefs then, exactly? That people are drawing up scenarios to explain why the Giants will suck instead of simply posting their thoughts on something reported by a beat writer, and that they do this because they are unhappy recluses.

The gloom and doom scenarios based on flimsy evidence are provide by the posters themselves.

In comment 15573915 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

for having an opinion and you see what vacchiano is doing right? he says Mara likes Flores, so if they hire Flores he can now run with article after article how the new GM doesnt have power

And if those events were to pass, that article wouldn't necessarily be inaccurate.

In comment 15574048 bluepepper said:

Quote:

In comment 15574030 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15574026 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: And they dropped their pants to hire him in 2 seconds. Not sure I agree with peppers assessment. I won't speak for peppers on this, but was Gettleman really a strong personality? Or did he pretend to be? If you asked me, it was pretty telling how he hid during the 2021 season. Always thought one reason Gettleman got the job was that he told John and Chris what they wanted to hear - that the team could compete with Eli at QB in 2018 by adding a few weapons and bringing in new coaches.

No, he evaluated Eli. And he sucked at that evaluation just like most of his evaluations, and that answer was what the Owners wanted to hear.

In comment 15574055 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15574019 Eric from BBI said: Quote: there are about five posters on this site who I actively search for their posts because of how plugged in they are. Peppers is at the top of that list. He doesn't post often, but when he does, he has fantastic info. He had a very interesting post on another thread today about the GM process. Very enlightening. Suggested Schoen may be more of a "yes" man...

I see someone posted Peppers's post above. I hope he responds to my follow-up.

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

Well that's concerning. I posted this over the weekend with regards to Hortiz not getting a 2nd interview, feels relevant...

Quote:

Maybe I'm reading into too much j_rud : 1/22/2022 11:09 am : link : reply But I don't like that Hortiz has been identified as being somewhat of an outlier in his coaching suggestions (Harbaugh, Martindale) while the rest were all in lockstep (Daboll, Flores, Quinn, apparently Graham) and did not get a 2nd interview despite being highly regarded and from a model front office. I have a hard time buying the "he was rusty in the zoom interview" line that was reported. Rust or nerves has nothing to do with vision and ability. I get that even when ushering in a supposed era of change that there is going to be a comfort zone. At the same time, the cynic in me sees "Schoen was endorsed by Parcells" and "Graham, highly regarded by the organization, will interview for the HC position" and think "Shit...did we get hoodwinked?" Again, maybe too much reading between the lines but it's hard to take anything at face value right now. Trust will be earned with wins.

to be someone who gave orders or this case presented a vision as his own but there were a lot of voices behind the scenes contributing.

I hate Mara as much as the next person on BBI. But let's just see how this plays out.

out of Schoen & win the HC job. However, if Mara is truly letting the GM make the decision, you would think that having a 4 year relationship with Daboll & being able to work together might be more important if, as an organization, they want to restore the "Giants Way"! I still have never heard a good reason why Flores would let Graham make a lateral move to the Giants, unless Graham was one of the coaches Flores didn't get along with. I think by Friday(similar to the GM choice), we will have a new HC & then the forming of the coaching staff will be full steam ahead!

In comment 15574057 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

there is a difference between owning a room and acting like you own the room. We all know people like that. Where was Gettleman during the 2021 season? Mara either hid him or he cowered in the corner. I was read dozens and dozens of posts on BBI last year that Judge was running the show now and Gettleman was just a figurehead. You can't have it both ways.

You read dozens of bad posts. The GM runs the show.

And DG was the same, until the season started and they went down in flames early and often. You want him to come out and say it'll be alright after 3 year of the same nonsense in his rear-view mirror.

come on, man...

Joe just might be one of those suits who knows how to climb the ladder by catering to his bosses. Most business executives are kind of like that after all. We have to hope he's not or that he did what he had to do to climb but once he has power he knows how to use it.

.....unless the Giants start winning it's always going to go back to ownership and Mara interfering.

I really hope John has picked the right guy.

Sometimes you pick the guy and he ends up just not delivering.

to believed that Peppers post. Not saying he’s wrong but it sounds more like an opinion rather than something someone high up in the organization would admit. Whether or not they make front office changes after the draft would be another sign.

just to witness the nuclear fallout.

So it's your position that Dave Gettleman was calling most of the shots in the past four years? That it was HIS decision to stick with Manning, not rebuild, and try for another run? That he was not abiding by the wishes of the Maras?

I suppose. But I wouldn't bet on that scenario.

Is that a bad thing? Gettleman's ego was enormous.

The point is they are not locking into one guy and having healthy discussion about more than one candidate. This is what you would expect and hope for. The gloom and doom is possible, sure, but in this case largely a hypothetical.

There is a report from an established beat writer that the owner may prefer a different coaching candidate than the GM. Nobody on this board knows the truth of that. If you choose to not care, so be it. Completely reasonable.

If others choose to be concerned by it (based on his known meddling the past two years)? Not sure why that is so upsetting to some, or why it is somehow viewed as people dreaming up scenarios.

This place has just become so damn toxic with people who can't stand to a hear a point of view that is not aligned with their own.

times

but Mara deserves zero benefit of the doubt. He has lost our trust - he said that himself.

It is not a crazy conspiracy theory to think he'd interfere with the coaching hires or player personnel. It is known fact based on good evidence.

It's on Mara to prove he isn't being an ass; it's not on the fans to prove he's being an ass.

In comment 15574081 UConn4523 said:

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just to witness the nuclear fallout.

Tell ya right now, I'm blaming Jamele Hill...

In comment 15574083 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Is that a bad thing? Gettleman's ego was enormous.

Based on press clippings, it appears Schoen is very respected around the NFL. I have no reason to doubt that and I pray it is true.

But if the Giants are going to really change things, Schoen has to be given the ability and be able to bring in his own scouts (both collegiate and pro personnel). He needs to be THE guy who runs the day-to-day football operation.

Let's see how this plays out. But Peppers post was the most disappointing thing I've seen.

Now we have a BBI poster saying the opposite. I don't what to believe. Will wait & see.

In comment 15574070 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

I hate Mara as much as the next person on BBI. But let's just see how this plays out.

Nobody is suggesting we draw conclusions now. Not a single person. Some expressed concern at a report that hints at Mara meddling again.

Maybe the site can do without the silly, insulting hyperbole?

so when Daboll is hired that it looks like Schoen overrode him and is the authority figure but really it was Daboll who Mara pushed for all along, tightening his grasp on the puppet strings.

In comment 15574090 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

There is a report from an established beat writer that the owner may prefer a different coaching candidate than the GM. Nobody on this board knows the truth of that. If you choose to not care, so be it. Completely reasonable. If others choose to be concerned by it (based on his known meddling the past two years)? Not sure why that is so upsetting to some, or why it is somehow viewed as people dreaming up scenarios. This place has just become so damn toxic with people who can't stand to a hear a point of view that is not aligned with their own.

Mike -I hear you, except the point of the beat writers article is not that Mara is forcing his guy on GM. That narrative the fans are introducing themselves. Having internal conversation and considering multiple candidates rather than locking in on one guy is healthy for decision making and how the process is intended to work.

In comment 15574101 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

so when Daboll is hired that it looks like Schoen overrode him and is the authority figure but really it was Daboll who Mara pushed for all along, tightening his grasp on the puppet strings.

There SFGF...now you have someone who believes in conspiracy theories!

In comment 15574098 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Now we have a BBI poster saying the opposite. I don't what to believe. Will wait & see.

He's not saying that at all.

Go Terps takes a lot of crap. But over the course of the past decade, he's probably been the most accurate poster on BBI.

I feel his instincts are correct on this... the tell is going to be Daniel Jones. I would throw Barkley in there too.

Will Schoen and the next HC have complete authority to decide the future of Jones and Barkley?

like it wasn't your idea, is to first hire the guy that he just worked with.

Come on guys, this is PI 101.

Or reup Saquon...well I give up then.

Nobody is suggesting Mara runs down the hall and demands certain people be hired or they are being fired. I'm sure he didn't do that with Judge either when he suggested that Garrett would be a great hire for OC.

The issue is if he is making his preference known rather than seeing what decision Schoen comes to on his own. If it is a close call, who doesn't want to go with the option that the boss likes?

I'd prefer there was no indication of who Mara prefers as it ultimately should not matter.

In comment 15573968 Johnny5 said:

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Is the owner of a billion $$ corporation not supposed to have any opinions on who gets hired to run his business? Geezus. If he really gave Schoen Carte Blanche what difference does it make? And yeah, Schoen needs to "cast a wide net". They should be interviewing every candidate out there.

Let's ask Jawn Mara what he thinks of fan skeptisim.

"I haven't given the fans any reason to think I will get this right"

Many of us agree Jawn. Which is why you should STFU.

As for the "Jawn is an owner and entitled to an opinion" folks here, when said owner has demonstrated a near 100% propensity for error, no he is not entitled to an opinion. You'd hope he'd be self aware enough to reflect "I am not really very good at this" and leave the decisions to others.

First time outside GM since 1979 and 4 days in he’s already a yes man and the franchise is fucked. Sheesh.

Obviously actions matter, but all year folks here were talking about how Abrams was a shoe in,

In comment 15574114 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Go Terps takes a lot of crap. But over the course of the past decade, he's probably been the most accurate poster on BBI. I feel his instincts are correct on this... the tell is going to be Daniel Jones. I would throw Barkley in there too. Will Schoen and the next HC have complete authority to decide the future of Jones and Barkley?

In the process of GM the search the anti Giants Central crowd was far from accurate and shown to be wrong over and over. Everything from assuming internal candidates, to Joe Judge staying, to Abrams being the guy, to NE candidates, to what the candidates were told they had authority over, etc.

In comment 15574119 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

Nobody is suggesting Mara runs down the hall and demands certain people be hired or they are being fired. I'm sure he didn't do that with Judge either when he suggested that Garrett would be a great hire for OC. The issue is if he is making his preference known rather than seeing what decision Schoen comes to on his own. If it is a close call, who doesn't want to go with the option that the boss likes? I'd prefer there was no indication of who Mara prefers as it ultimately should not matter.

The mistake here (potentially) is that you are equating Mara's interest to interview Flores as him wanting Flores. Why can't the owner ask about candidates and express having interest in meeting those that seem interesting.

It doesn't have to be some masterplan to taint or influence the process. In fact, this is a fairly normal practice in the corporate world - the CEO has connections, old colleagues, friends of a friend, etc and exploring those options can be valuable.

I'm talking about his evaluation of the team and management.

Go Terps was right all along.

In comment 15574132 Sean said:

Quote:

First time outside GM since 1979 and 4 days in he’s already a yes man and the franchise is fucked. Sheesh. Obviously actions matter, but all year folks here were talking about how Abrams was a shoe in,

Again with the ridiculous hyperbole? It's hard to have a discussion with some people on this topic.

The 'yes man' comment came from someone who has had inside information in the past. It may be right, it may be wrong. But is is not just someone throwing out a random thought. ALso, nobody said the team was fucked. People expresses concern about the owners influence on the decision. It is a concern with the process, not a conclusion on the outcome.

But sure, let's keep setting up the strawmen and knocking 'em down!

Fair enough. That is a reasonable take. I just don't think that the idea is to have the GM make such an important decision in a vacuum. IMO healthy discussion with Schoen making the final call is how I would expect the process to work, and I did not get the idea from the article that anything contrary to that was suggested.

few years of real-world and a decade of shitty football has really done a number on this fan-base..

did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him.

There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster.

If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude.

I'm in full on wait-and-see mode.

In comment 15574136 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 15574119 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: Nobody is suggesting Mara runs down the hall and demands certain people be hired or they are being fired. I'm sure he didn't do that with Judge either when he suggested that Garrett would be a great hire for OC. The issue is if he is making his preference known rather than seeing what decision Schoen comes to on his own. If it is a close call, who doesn't want to go with the option that the boss likes? I'd prefer there was no indication of who Mara prefers as it ultimately should not matter. The mistake here (potentially) is that you are equating Mara's interest to interview Flores as him wanting Flores. Why can't the owner ask about candidates and express having interest in meeting those that seem interesting. It doesn't have to be some masterplan to taint or influence the process. In fact, this is a fairly normal practice in the corporate world - the CEO has connections, old colleagues, friends of a friend, etc and exploring those options can be valuable.

No you misunderstood. Ralph was reporting that people believed Mara preferred Flores, not that he simply wanted to interview him. That is a very big difference.

The proof of how much latitude Schoen has will be in the pudding, especially when we see what happens to the scouting side of things. Beane completely overhauled the Bills and so Schoen has that roadmap. If we see little changes in the FO, then it will be fair to characterize Schoen as a "yes man". But it's way too early to tell anything and right now the media is 100% "front office dysfunction for clicks"

Now Schoen is a yes man that owners can control, but has carte Blanche?! Wtf! This site creates narratives that fit their preconceived notions IMO. Am I blindly following what Mara said? Maybe so, but I’m giving this process and the new GM a chance before coming up with these odd notions.

Id rather have Flores. Has Daboll sniffed a head coaching job before this season? I havent heard his name before this year despite having been a coach for over 20 years. I think this team is n such a ad state he would be in over his head. I like Flores because he is coming from a Miami team that was a complete disaster and was at least able to make them respectable. Something we havent had in years.

If I were the owner of a team you bet your ass I would have input on who we hire as head coach. ultimately I think Shoen will have final say, but whats wrong with an owner saying what about this guy?

Was that a literal quote from Mara or something someone in the press stated? Because it doesn't really seem like the GM is leading the search. Or if he is leading the search, he needs a few less followers, less hangers-on.

In comment 15574147 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Fair enough. That is a reasonable take. I just don't think that the idea is to have the GM make such an important decision in a vacuum. IMO healthy discussion with Schoen making the final call is how I would expect the process to work, and I did not get the idea from the article that anything contrary to that was suggested.

Nobody is suggesting that Mara not interview the candidates or have an opinion. Of course he will. The concern is when it is reported in the press that the owner has a preferred candidate before the final decision is made. That is the concern because how does that not influence the decision?

1) Schoen was seen as a leading GM candidate by every source out there. Not for the Giants - for any team that needed a GM. The reaction has been basically a universal "Great hire" by every talking head and media person out there. That wasn't the case with DG and its not the case with every GM/coach hired around the league. But now we are to believe that the reality is that behind the scenes Schoen isnt a talent evaluator and wasn't helpful in actually building what Buffalo has going on. He's just a yes man who's good at organizing things. There's a disconnect here.

2) Insiders and asshats get their info from somewhere. And the info they get comes through the prism or viewpoint of the person providing it. I know Peppers has given great info in the past. But maybe his source has an axe to grind in this situation because they are threatened by whats going on? I don't know at all but it certainly sounds like a sour grapes situation where literally every NFL source when asked about Schoen says "Homerun hire" and yet Peppers knows hes nothing more than a yes man for Mara.

also depends on what being the favorite means, and why, and if its even accurate. It could have been that way before Schoen was even hired.

Flores is actually someone a lot of people want hired too, but if/when he is the narrative has already been created. Its an equally fascinating and bizarre way to follow sports. To each their own.

In comment 15574149 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him. There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster. If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude. I'm in full on wait-and-see mode.

This is the key point. There has been a structural problem brewing here. The 2011 team was not as good as the 2008 team. I think we blew our chance in 2008 but made up for it in 2011 because Manning had a career year and Cruz and Nicks were amazing. The defense and running game - which were bottom ranked - finally came to life in the playoffs.

But that 2011 team was fraying at the edges and the collapse came quickly. Why? Injuries, bad drafting, bad free agent decisions.

So in many ways, this predates even 2011.

In comment 15574158 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

also depends on what being the favorite means, and why, and if its even accurate. It could have been that way before Schoen was even hired. Flores is actually someone a lot of people want hired too, but if/when he is the narrative has already been created. Its an equally fascinating and bizarre way to follow sports. To each their own.

Yes there are two ways to follow sports. You can follow what is happening and form opinions, or you can accept information that supports your view and reject information that challenges it. Two very different ways to enjoy sports, you are correct.

In comment 15573905 djstat said:

Quote:

Seriously? Not saying he is bad, but why gamble on a coach who had communication issues?

Could also be argued why would you gamble on a guy who has never been a head coach, or succeeded as an OC in the NFL w/o Josh Allen? I think you're misguided in saying Flores is a risk, while Daboll isn't

If you hate the Roster, Owners, and choices of Gm and Coach why not find a different organization that more closely aligns with your beliefs. There seems to be a large group here that just peddles misery every day. Having opposing views is one thing but hating every aspect of an organization while also being a fan makes no sense

to call him a racist?

Mara said it himself - he has to prove he can do it.

He doesn't have my trust, nor does anyone in the building. I've got to see that it's not the same Mickey Mouse bullshit we've been getting for a decade.

In comment 15574166 KDavies said:

Quote:

In comment 15573905 djstat said: Quote: Seriously? Not saying he is bad, but why gamble on a coach who had communication issues? Could also be argued why would you gamble on a guy who has never been a head coach, or succeeded as an OC in the NFL w/o Josh Allen? I think you're misguided in saying Flores is a risk, while Daboll isn't

Every candidate we are interviewing carries some risk. If they were all unquestioned winners they wouldn't be looking for a head coaching job.

The Giants were definitely going to stand pat, then only fire Gettleman, then certainly try to promote Abrams, and certainly not look at people outside the organization.

They’ve not done any of that.

They hired an outside guy, one I’ve only heard good things about from pretty much everyone. But never mind that.

Our new GM is painted as a “yes man” before he’s even had a press conference and he’s allegedly being told who to hire based on a report of what Mara’s preference is thought to be. And scenarios are set up in peoples’ minds that will confirm these suspicions if he decides to do one thing or another, whether or not those are actually the reasons.

BBI is becoming unreadable anymore.

In comment 15574172 NorthCountryGiantsFan said:

Quote:

If you hate the Roster, Owners, and choices of Gm and Coach why not find a different organization that more closely aligns with your beliefs. There seems to be a large group here that just peddles misery every day. Having opposing views is one thing but hating every aspect of an organization while also being a fan makes no sense

The people who are here and bitching are doing so because they love the team and they are upset about how mismanaged it has become.

The Giants have become the laughing stock of the NFL. They get blown out by loser teams like the Bears and quit in the 2nd quarter of game (see our new QB sneak offense).

The ones who are here are the ones who care. The ones who have left are the ones who have given up. And that list is growing daily.

In comment 15574161 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15574149 Dnew15 said: Quote: did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him. There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster. If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude. I'm in full on wait-and-see mode. This is the key point. There has been a structural problem brewing here. The 2011 team was not as good as the 2008 team. I think we blew our chance in 2008 but made up for it in 2011 because Manning had a career year and Cruz and Nicks were amazing. The defense and running game - which were bottom ranked - finally came to life in the playoffs. But that 2011 team was fraying at the edges and the collapse came quickly. Why? Injuries, bad drafting, bad free agent decisions. So in many ways, this predates even 2011.

2008 in Cleveland. If it had to be narrowed down to a single date point of inflection, that game is it. That's certainly too simplistic, but I can't forget Shaun Rogers destroying the middle of that offensive line.

In comment 15574172 NorthCountryGiantsFan said:

Quote:

If you hate the Roster, Owners, and choices of Gm and Coach why not find a different organization that more closely aligns with your beliefs. There seems to be a large group here that just peddles misery every day. Having opposing views is one thing but hating every aspect of an organization while also being a fan makes no sense

Again with the hyperbole! Holy irrationality, Batman!

Can you list out the posters that said they hate every aspect of this organization or that the organization doesn't align with their beliefs?

You must have LOVED medium pepsi day!

In comment 15574178 Daniel in MI said:

Quote:

The Giants were definitely going to stand pat, then only fire Gettleman, then certainly try to promote Abrams, and certainly not look at people outside the organization. They’ve not done any of that. They hired an outside guy, one I’ve only heard good things about from pretty much everyone. But never mind that. Our new GM is painted as a “yes man” before he’s even had a press conference and he’s allegedly being told who to hire based on a report of what Mara’s preference is thought to be. And scenarios are set up in peoples’ minds that will confirm these suspicions if he decides to do one thing or another, whether or not those are actually the reasons. BBI is becoming unreadable anymore.

I'm not saying Peppers is infallible, but the guy is probably the #1 asshat on this site. His stuff on the draft alone has been amazing.

We're reacting to what he wrote. Could be right...could be wrong. We shall see. But would it surprise you if Schoen is a really good "information gatherer" as Peppers says and not a guy to rock the boat? We don't know. He's never been a GM before. Peppers is merely saying what his reputation in the NFL is.

In comment 15574185 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15574161 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15574149 Dnew15 said: Quote: did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him. There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster. If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude. I'm in full on wait-and-see mode. This is the key point. There has been a structural problem brewing here. The 2011 team was not as good as the 2008 team. I think we blew our chance in 2008 but made up for it in 2011 because Manning had a career year and Cruz and Nicks were amazing. The defense and running game - which were bottom ranked - finally came to life in the playoffs. But that 2011 team was fraying at the edges and the collapse came quickly. Why? Injuries, bad drafting, bad free agent decisions. So in many ways, this predates even 2011. 2008 in Cleveland. If it had to be narrowed down to a single date point of inflection, that game is it. That's certainly too simplistic, but I can't forget Shaun Rogers destroying the middle of that offensive line.

It's amazing they held up long enough to get that SB in February of 2012. The floor fell out from underneath like midway in the 2012 season.

Schoen is making the call and not Mara. Although, nothing wrong with Schoen at least listening to Mara’s thoughts and opinions. After all, he is the boss.

In comment 15574163 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15574158 UConn4523 said: Quote: also depends on what being the favorite means, and why, and if its even accurate. It could have been that way before Schoen was even hired. Flores is actually someone a lot of people want hired too, but if/when he is the narrative has already been created. Its an equally fascinating and bizarre way to follow sports. To each their own. Yes there are two ways to follow sports. You can follow what is happening and form opinions, or you can accept information that supports your view and reject information that challenges it. Two very different ways to enjoy sports, you are correct.

Not rejecting it, lol. Getting this defensive is just strange. And I gave my opinion based on the information at hand, which is...not really much unless you want to use it for confirmation bias.

was Mara was very defensive when his family members were asked about in his press conference. Very defensive and dismissive.

For now we just have to see how things go. People are going to think what they want till the team starts winning. With the draft, FA, cuts and changes to FO staff all coming soon in the next few months it should be clear how much influence JS has regardless of HC selected. No GM walks into what the Giants are right now and continues business as is if he is serious about winning.

In comment 15574140 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I'm talking about his evaluation of the team and management. Go Terps was right all along.

Yes, that is true, though it wasn't just him. The notion that the 2018 team was in any position to make another run with Eli and hence drafting a RB #2 overall was a sound way to construct a roster in clear need of rebuilding was such an obvious red flag from start. And Daniel Jones was such a glaring close to the heard of the organization reach at 6 as a QB out of Duke who was coached by Eli's former coach and unlikely as high on anyone elses board.
The issue I have with Terps is that his desire to move on from Jones is so strong, which we need to do, but you cannot force the QB. We need the right guy, not just someone not named Jones, and that person may not be available right away without selling the farm.

In comment 15574181 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15574172 NorthCountryGiantsFan said: Quote: If you hate the Roster, Owners, and choices of Gm and Coach why not find a different organization that more closely aligns with your beliefs. There seems to be a large group here that just peddles misery every day. Having opposing views is one thing but hating every aspect of an organization while also being a fan makes no sense The people who are here and bitching are doing so because they love the team and they are upset about how mismanaged it has become. The Giants have become the laughing stock of the NFL. They get blown out by loser teams like the Bears and quit in the 2nd quarter of game (see our new QB sneak offense). The ones who are here are the ones who care. The ones who have left are the ones who have given up. And that list is growing daily.

So BBI is the last beacon of hope, and the end all be all of Giant fandom? Good lord dude.

In comment 15574075 bluepepper said:

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Joe just might be one of those suits who knows how to climb the ladder by catering to his bosses. Most business executives are kind of like that after all. We have to hope he's not or that he did what he had to do to climb but once he has power he knows how to use it.

Agreed. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but the other thing that bothered me about the Schoen hire was the predictability. Very telegraphed hire.

Hopefully, he does have the power we all want him to have and he weilds it. Looking forward to his presser tomorrow.

if that is truly what his reputation across the nfl is, why is everyone saying great hire? i have no ida how he'll turn out but i don't think it makes sense that he's known as some kind of yes man throughout the league but everyone at he same time is lauding the hire. there's a disconnect there. not every hire gets greeted with positive comments and this one has been extremely positive. i don't see how it could be reality that around the league his rep isnt that great.

In comment 15574185 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15574161 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15574149 Dnew15 said: Quote: did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him. There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster. If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude. I'm in full on wait-and-see mode. This is the key point. There has been a structural problem brewing here. The 2011 team was not as good as the 2008 team. I think we blew our chance in 2008 but made up for it in 2011 because Manning had a career year and Cruz and Nicks were amazing. The defense and running game - which were bottom ranked - finally came to life in the playoffs. But that 2011 team was fraying at the edges and the collapse came quickly. Why? Injuries, bad drafting, bad free agent decisions. So in many ways, this predates even 2011. 2008 in Cleveland. If it had to be narrowed down to a single date point of inflection, that game is it. That's certainly too simplistic, but I can't forget Shaun Rogers destroying the middle of that offensive line.

That's a ridiculous assertion. The 2008 line was amazing. More like the 2011 Giants against SF OL in NFC CG. Eli got pummeled but still won because of him. A bit similar to Burrow this past weekend. That was more a sign of things to come than any game in 2008 where we ran all over everyone.

until they're not. Even "knowns" can be risk. Andy Reid coached for a long time and had a rep as a guy who couldn't win a big game or a close game. Now, not so much.

If we could hire Kyle Shanahan or McVay or Tomlin we should. But they're not available. And before they had their current jobs, they were coordinators who hadn't been HCs. Tomlin, in particular, had very little senior experience.

Is Shoen good? I don't know. He has the profile of someone who could be good. He was on the list of other teams looking for GMs. The Giants talked to a lot of other similarly qualified guys and picked him. They had to pick someone. Think about who we were talking about during the season - Abrams, Pioli, someone chosen by Judge? Is this not better?

Will Daboll be good? Who knows? He has a lot of experience with a lot of different coaches. He's run a good offense. People in the league seem to think highly of him. None of us know him (I actually met him in the 90's when he was a graduate assistant, but a lot's changed since then). Even if we did know him, we wouldn't know if he'd be a good coach.

Who does know him is Shoen. He's been in the building with him for years. And if he thinks that Daboll is the guy who he wants to stake his future with, he certainly has a lot more info than we do.

I'm not saying to defer completely to the people in charge. The people in charge here have been dumb for a long time. But they talked to a lot of qualified candidates for GM and picked one. The GM knows the likely coach very well and presumably has a good working relationship with him (we want that, right?). The process, on the whole, seems quite good. What else do we want?

In comment 15574211 JJ2525 said:

Quote:

if that is truly what his reputation across the nfl is, why is everyone saying great hire? i have no ida how he'll turn out but i don't think it makes sense that he's known as some kind of yes man throughout the league but everyone at he same time is lauding the hire. there's a disconnect there. not every hire gets greeted with positive comments and this one has been extremely positive. i don't see how it could be reality that around the league his rep isnt that great.

Because the Mara family wields a lot of power and influence across all areas of the NFL.

No one speaks of ill of the Mara family.

In comment 15574198 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 15574140 Eric from BBI said: Quote: I'm talking about his evaluation of the team and management. Go Terps was right all along. Yes, that is true, though it wasn't just him. The notion that the 2018 team was in any position to make another run with Eli and hence drafting a RB #2 overall was a sound way to construct a roster in clear need of rebuilding was such an obvious red flag from start. And Daniel Jones was such a glaring close to the heard of the organization reach at 6 as a QB out of Duke who was coached by Eli's former coach and unlikely as high on anyone elses board. The issue I have with Terps is that his desire to move on from Jones is so strong, which we need to do, but you cannot force the QB. We need the right guy, not just someone not named Jones, and that person may not be available right away without selling the farm.

I'm not interested in forcing a QB pick. There are numerous viable options that vary in aggressiveness.

What is not viable is sitting around waiting for Andrew Luck in the draft.

In comment 15574196 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15574163 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: In comment 15574158 UConn4523 said: Quote: also depends on what being the favorite means, and why, and if its even accurate. It could have been that way before Schoen was even hired. Flores is actually someone a lot of people want hired too, but if/when he is the narrative has already been created. Its an equally fascinating and bizarre way to follow sports. To each their own. Yes there are two ways to follow sports. You can follow what is happening and form opinions, or you can accept information that supports your view and reject information that challenges it. Two very different ways to enjoy sports, you are correct. Not rejecting it, lol. Getting this defensive is just strange. And I gave my opinion based on the information at hand, which is...not really much unless you want to use it for confirmation bias.

You are a strange dude. You drop into a thread, insult other posters based on your own misunderstanding of what is being discussed, and then accuse someone else of being defensive.

But hey, enjoy it the way you enjoy it!

In comment 15574217 GF1080 said:

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In comment 15574185 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15574161 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15574149 Dnew15 said: Quote: did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him. There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster. If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude. I'm in full on wait-and-see mode. This is the key point. There has been a structural problem brewing here. The 2011 team was not as good as the 2008 team. I think we blew our chance in 2008 but made up for it in 2011 because Manning had a career year and Cruz and Nicks were amazing. The defense and running game - which were bottom ranked - finally came to life in the playoffs. But that 2011 team was fraying at the edges and the collapse came quickly. Why? Injuries, bad drafting, bad free agent decisions. So in many ways, this predates even 2011. 2008 in Cleveland. If it had to be narrowed down to a single date point of inflection, that game is it. That's certainly too simplistic, but I can't forget Shaun Rogers destroying the middle of that offensive line. That's a ridiculous assertion. The 2008 line was amazing. More like the 2011 Giants against SF OL in NFC CG. Eli got pummeled but still won because of him. A bit similar to Burrow this past weekend. That was more a sign of things to come than any game in 2008 where we ran all over everyone.

The 2008 line was starting to break. The first sign (that I saw, anyway) was in Cleveland. That was a warning for what was to come in the playoffs, where Michael Patterson and Broderick Bunkley dominated the interior of the LOS.

But where I disagree is that rolling with DJ for another year as a bridge QB while improving in other major areas of need if the timing is not right is a viable option. It is quite possible that we'd be sitting here with Herbert now instead Jones if we handn't reached for the latter.

In comment 15574220 Dnew15 said:

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In comment 15574211 JJ2525 said: Quote: if that is truly what his reputation across the nfl is, why is everyone saying great hire? i have no ida how he'll turn out but i don't think it makes sense that he's known as some kind of yes man throughout the league but everyone at he same time is lauding the hire. there's a disconnect there. not every hire gets greeted with positive comments and this one has been extremely positive. i don't see how it could be reality that around the league his rep isnt that great. Because the Mara family wields a lot of power and influence across all areas of the NFL. No one speaks of ill of the Mara family.

So the entire media spoke ill of the previous GM from the minute they hired him, but now they're speaking great about Schoen because the Mara's have power? Where was their power the last 4 years when literally everyone was killing DG (rightfully so). Listen all I'm saying is just look at the logic. Everyone is so beaten down that everyone wants to be the first to say "See i told you all it was the same old terrible hire".

In comment 15574238 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15574217 GF1080 said: Quote: In comment 15574185 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15574161 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 15574149 Dnew15 said: Quote: did NOT begin when DG arrived. They pre-dated him. There are people that still occupy important front office roles that have been here for the duration of the NYG 10 year run of disaster. If the new GM is not a yes-man (like I suspect DG was) then we'll see proof in his actions against those that need to be held accountable for their ineptitude. I'm in full on wait-and-see mode. This is the key point. There has been a structural problem brewing here. The 2011 team was not as good as the 2008 team. I think we blew our chance in 2008 but made up for it in 2011 because Manning had a career year and Cruz and Nicks were amazing. The defense and running game - which were bottom ranked - finally came to life in the playoffs. But that 2011 team was fraying at the edges and the collapse came quickly. Why? Injuries, bad drafting, bad free agent decisions. So in many ways, this predates even 2011. 2008 in Cleveland. If it had to be narrowed down to a single date point of inflection, that game is it. That's certainly too simplistic, but I can't forget Shaun Rogers destroying the middle of that offensive line. That's a ridiculous assertion. The 2008 line was amazing. More like the 2011 Giants against SF OL in NFC CG. Eli got pummeled but still won because of him. A bit similar to Burrow this past weekend. That was more a sign of things to come than any game in 2008 where we ran all over everyone. The 2008 line was starting to break. The first sign (that I saw, anyway) was in Cleveland. That was a warning for what was to come in the playoffs, where Michael Patterson and Broderick Bunkley dominated the interior of the LOS.

The team went 12-4 and led the league in rushing in part because of the strength of the OL that year. Did they have a bad game or two sure. I can't use that season to show the line was beginning to break down. The 2009,2010, and 2011 teams were also top 10 in points scored. It started to go shortly thereafter so I will use the SF game myself.

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said:

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posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy.

Jabrill Peppers said that? If so, I assume he's seen his last day in a Giants' uniform

on the back channels for some time. So, while they went outside the org for the new GM, you could certainly say they zero'd in on him before the interview process of all candidates began. To this extent, Peppers' perspective on the matter is not surprising and a bit concerning, given Mara's poor decision making over the past decade.

Might be something, might be nothing, time will tell. I'd agree the tell(s) will be how Schoen goes about change in the front office, scouting, personnel, then Jones, and to a less extent, Saquon.

if you and anyone else has free reign to question everything this franchise does (with little to no actual information i might add) its completely fair game to question those posters and their confirmation bias. How can it not?

There's some far reaching takes on both sides of this coin and plenty of hyperbole being thrown around. Calling it like I see it and if that's insulting (no idea how that can be but alrighty) i'm not sure what to tell you.

In comment 15574082 Eric from BBI said:

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So it's your position that Dave Gettleman was calling most of the shots in the past four years? That it was HIS decision to stick with Manning, not rebuild, and try for another run? That he was not abiding by the wishes of the Maras? I suppose. But I wouldn't bet on that scenario.

Read above. Noted that DG did his shitty player eval work on Eli (and missed it), figured his ego alone would fix the rest of the roster (and missed it).

So he walked into Mara's office and said Eli is fine, lets go...

In comment 15574257 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said: Quote: posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy. Jabrill Peppers said that? If so, I assume he's seen his last day in a Giants' uniform

Bill - there is a poster with the handle "Peppers" here, who has somewhat of a track record of accurate/inside insight.

In comment 15574092 Go Terps said:

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but Mara deserves zero benefit of the doubt. He has lost our trust - he said that himself. It is not a crazy conspiracy theory to think he'd interfere with the coaching hires or player personnel. It is known fact based on good evidence. It's on Mara to prove he isn't being an ass; it's not on the fans to prove he's being an ass.

Zero benefit of the doubt...is fine. I agree.

That's not what this is which is a witch hunt on the Mara's doing anything in the building except take a piss.

When you actually see somebody behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll with a gun, call me...

In comment 15574258 JonC said:

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on the back channels for some time. So, while they went outside the org for the new GM, you could certainly say they zero'd in on him before the interview process of all candidates began. To this extent, Peppers' perspective on the matter is not surprising and a bit concerning, given Mara's poor decision making over the past decade. Might be something, might be nothing, time will tell. I'd agree the tell(s) will be how Schoen goes about change in the front office, scouting, personnel, then Jones, and to a less extent, Saquon.

But was it only Schoen? There was prep work done before hand, we know and was part of counter argument why firing DG before season end wasn't necessary. Do we know for sure there were only discussions with Schoen and no one else?

In comment 15574250 UberAlias said:

Quote:

But where I disagree is that rolling with DJ for another year as a bridge QB while improving in other major areas of need if the timing is not right is a viable option. It is quite possible that we'd be sitting here with Herbert now instead Jones if we handn't reached for the latter.

No one is suggesting repeating the mistake.

I've said frequently that the bigger mistake was not drafting Jones, but clinging to him when there was clearly a better prospect available in the following draft. That was where an honest appraisal of Jones was critical; instead of honesty what took place was infatuation with a couple outlet performances against bad defenses.

The biggest need on the Giants' roster is quarterback. That doesn't mean they have to draft one at #5 or #7. But they need to address the position either in the draft, FA, or both. Going forward solely with Jones and a non-factor backup again isn't viable. If they do that I'd have questions about whether Schoen is stupid or if he's been mandated by Mara to go with Jones. Either way, it's a huge problem.

Whomever they hire, the areas to watch are the front office, scouting, and quarterback. If those remain static it's not good.

everyone loves Sy here for his draft analysis and consider him to be a very well respected scout and asset to this website.

He wants Flores over Daboll. But I guess we won't discuss that.

In comment 15574271 bigbluehoya said:

Quote:

In comment 15574257 Bill in UT said: Quote: In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said: Quote: posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy. Jabrill Peppers said that? If so, I assume he's seen his last day in a Giants' uniform Bill - there is a poster with the handle "Peppers" here, who has somewhat of a track record of accurate/inside insight.

Thanks, I picked up on that after reading more posts. I've never noticed him, but I will now :)

In comment 15574264 UConn4523 said:

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if you and anyone else has free reign to question everything this franchise does (with little to no actual information i might add) its completely fair game to question those posters and their confirmation bias. How can it not? There's some far reaching takes on both sides of this coin and plenty of hyperbole being thrown around. Calling it like I see it and if that's insulting (no idea how that can be but alrighty) i'm not sure what to tell you.

I don't think you are a dumb guy, so you must just being purposefully obtuse in your posts.

Nobody is 'questioning everything this organization does." It was a reaction to a single piece of information reported by a beat writer. Nobody said it is right, but it is also consistent with what happened here the last two years, so not exactly a conspiracy theory to believe it may be true.

And yeah, calling how someone else is a fan 'bizarre' is insulting. Unless you believe there is no pejorative meaning to that word?

I get it. You don't like to question things or believe the Giants can make mistakes or by dysfunctional. That's fine. But you should realize not everyone shares that belief and that doesn't make them wrong.

new GM hasn't even been here for a week and you guys are already losing your minds.

And you wonder why fans leave this site.

In comment 15574284 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15574250 UberAlias said: Quote: But where I disagree is that rolling with DJ for another year as a bridge QB while improving in other major areas of need if the timing is not right is a viable option. It is quite possible that we'd be sitting here with Herbert now instead Jones if we handn't reached for the latter. No one is suggesting repeating the mistake. I've said frequently that the bigger mistake was not drafting Jones, but clinging to him when there was clearly a better prospect available in the following draft. That was where an honest appraisal of Jones was critical; instead of honesty what took place was infatuation with a couple outlet performances against bad defenses. The biggest need on the Giants' roster is quarterback. That doesn't mean they have to draft one at #5 or #7. But they need to address the position either in the draft, FA, or both. Going forward solely with Jones and a non-factor backup again isn't viable. If they do that I'd have questions about whether Schoen is stupid or if he's been mandated by Mara to go with Jones. Either way, it's a huge problem. Whomever they hire, the areas to watch are the front office, scouting, and quarterback. If those remain static it's not good.

Now this is spot on. I would also like to say RB as well but will be though to get a team to Barkley off our hands and they have Booker who performed well when called on. Don't think they'll look to add anyone else in that room unless someone does want Barkley.

there are plenty of valid reasons to suggest Flores will be a better head coach option than Daboll.

But everyone wants to blame Mara, so we won't get into those.

In comment 15574294 ryanmkeane said:

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there are plenty of valid reasons to suggest Flores will be a better head coach option than Daboll. But everyone wants to blame Mara, so we won't get into those.

That's not the issue. Gun to my head, I'd probably go with Flores.

The issue is the GM should make the pick. If they override him, they should have hired another GM.

no offense, but i also think this whole "all three finalists were yes men" notion is such bullshit.

All 3 of them had never been a GM. They had never made a draft pick, they worked for the GM of the actual teams they were employed for, 2 of them being assistant GMs and successful ones at that. So....yeah. No shit they were "yes men" because they did whatever their boss told them to do. Which is what all assistant GMs do when they work for a GM.

In comment 15574286 ryanmkeane said:

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everyone loves Sy here for his draft analysis and consider him to be a very well respected scout and asset to this website. He wants Flores over Daboll. But I guess we won't discuss that.

Unsurprisingly the whole conversation is over your head.

In comment 15574267 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 15574082 Eric from BBI said: Quote: So it's your position that Dave Gettleman was calling most of the shots in the past four years? That it was HIS decision to stick with Manning, not rebuild, and try for another run? That he was not abiding by the wishes of the Maras? I suppose. But I wouldn't bet on that scenario. Read above. Noted that DG did his shitty player eval work on Eli (and missed it), figured his ego alone would fix the rest of the roster (and missed it). So he walked into Mara's office and said Eli is fine, lets go...

This is baloney. No way Mara was doubling down on the Eli benching. He was in total damage control for days after that. Francessa challenged him to cut Eli.

Everyone talks about Dave but forget who John turned to for guidance. Ernie. That I think where the decision was made.

Short of a can't miss prospect QB prospect (think Manning/Luck here) I even think drafting a QB was a no go in 2018 no matter how much impression they tried to give.

The demise was starting before 2011. Take a look at the 2012 draft if you need to see what the Giants thought of the eroding lines. Wilson, Randle, Hosley, JPP TE's. I'm sure TC was pounding the table for a scat back, another WR and TE with his QB just having survived the season with practically no running game.

In comment 15574286 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

everyone loves Sy here for his draft analysis and consider him to be a very well respected scout and asset to this website. He wants Flores over Daboll. But I guess we won't discuss that.

Oh, no! The Mara's got to Sy now too?

i understand that, and i totally get your point.

But here's the thing. What if Schoen actually wants to hire Flores? If Flores is hired, everyone, including you, because of this narrative you are pushing every day, will AUTOMATICALLY assume that Flores was picked by Mara. And that's kind of absurd.

When Flores was fired, nearly everyone in football was surprised. He had done a nice job in Miami with basically, the same roster as the Giants had the past two seasons. Maybe worse.

Terps, fuck off man. Seriously. Your takes are so tiresome.

Where I disagree is that it has to be this year and that if that doesn't happen then it means the GM is a yes man. And for scouts, you aren''t going to see changes there until after the draft. There is a distinct possibility that the new GM recognizes that a full rebuild is necessary and will take time but does not see taking sledgehammer to everything is wisest way to go. Mike Tannenbaum was speculating year one could be a bit of an evaluation period. If that happens it does not mean we hired a hack with no spine, but will be the narrative as we can see already.

In comment 15574282 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 15574258 JonC said: Quote: on the back channels for some time. So, while they went outside the org for the new GM, you could certainly say they zero'd in on him before the interview process of all candidates began. To this extent, Peppers' perspective on the matter is not surprising and a bit concerning, given Mara's poor decision making over the past decade. Might be something, might be nothing, time will tell. I'd agree the tell(s) will be how Schoen goes about change in the front office, scouting, personnel, then Jones, and to a less extent, Saquon. But was it only Schoen? There was prep work done before hand, we know and was part of counter argument why firing DG before season end wasn't necessary. Do we know for sure there were only discussions with Schoen and no one else?

I don't know, but it doesn't change the likelihood of how they approached this for me. I'm not shitting on the process or the hire, just noting Peppers comments are a bit bothersome until we some actions that indicate otherwise.

In comment 15574156 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 15574147 UberAlias said: Quote: Fair enough. That is a reasonable take. I just don't think that the idea is to have the GM make such an important decision in a vacuum. IMO healthy discussion with Schoen making the final call is how I would expect the process to work, and I did not get the idea from the article that anything contrary to that was suggested. Nobody is suggesting that Mara not interview the candidates or have an opinion. Of course he will. The concern is when it is reported in the press that the owner has a preferred candidate before the final decision is made. That is the concern because how does that not influence the decision?

Who is saying that? How has it been validated? We know very little of what Mara is thinking...I'd say that's just drama. Whoever is selected will be the candidate that the team all agrees on, they'd be doing the same thing as last time if ownershi makes the call.

until the Giants make the playoffs in three consecutive seasons, you guys aren't going to trust the owner.

That's fine. It's just tiresome. He did what you wanted. Get over it and hope this new GM ends up being a good one.

In comment 15574312 ryanmkeane said:

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until the Giants make the playoffs in three consecutive seasons, you guys aren't going to trust the owner. That's fine. It's just tiresome. He did what you wanted. Get over it and hope this new GM ends up being a good one.

Jesus ryan, you're such a mouthpiece for the organization.

This team hasn't improved in years. We are exactly where we were six years go, but even worse, despite going through another GM and three HCs.

Three winning seasons in a row??? How about just 8-8?

In comment 15574301 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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In comment 15574267 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 15574082 Eric from BBI said: Quote: So it's your position that Dave Gettleman was calling most of the shots in the past four years? That it was HIS decision to stick with Manning, not rebuild, and try for another run? That he was not abiding by the wishes of the Maras? I suppose. But I wouldn't bet on that scenario. Read above. Noted that DG did his shitty player eval work on Eli (and missed it), figured his ego alone would fix the rest of the roster (and missed it). So he walked into Mara's office and said Eli is fine, lets go... This is baloney. No way Mara was doubling down on the Eli benching. He was in total damage control for days after that. Francessa challenged him to cut Eli. Everyone talks about Dave but forget who John turned to for guidance. Ernie. That I think where the decision was made. Short of a can't miss prospect QB prospect (think Manning/Luck here) I even think drafting a QB was a no go in 2018 no matter how much impression they tried to give.

You're missing it. The mandate didn't need to come down because Getts figured Eli had some more "game". He was wrong, but that is what he concluded to and told Mara.

Mara was just likely very pleased to here that was the conclusion from his football folks (DG and Shurmur)...but it was wrong.

In comment 15574294 ryanmkeane said:

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there are plenty of valid reasons to suggest Flores will be a better head coach option than Daboll. But everyone wants to blame Mara, so we won't get into those.

Doesn’t matter what Mara and co., SUGGEST, Schoen was given carte blanche on hirings..If Flores becomes our HC, then it’s because Schoen wants him here. Just because the vast majority believe it will be Daboll (which I do), that does not mean there’s an undermining underfoot..It means we got it wrong, imv

That would be a key detail to me. Saying they singled one candidate out and gave him an early favorable start would be very different than starting the process early behind the scenes when you already know your GM is gone but have not made it official to get ahead are two drastically different situations.

In comment 15574306 ryanmkeane said:

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Terps, fuck off man. Seriously. Your takes are so tiresome.

What's tiresome is your apparent inability to learn anything.

Mara doesn't deserve trust. Those aren't my words, they're his. Don't give people shit for not giving him a benefit of the doubt that he hasn't earned.

A bunch of you guys post like you haven't spent the last four years being wrong about everything.

In comment 15574114 Eric from BBI said:

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Go Terps takes a lot of crap. But over the course of the past decade, he's probably been the most accurate poster on BBI. I feel his instincts are correct on this... the tell is going to be Daniel Jones. I would throw Barkley in there too. Will Schoen and the next HC have complete authority to decide the future of Jones and Barkley?

I agree on Barkley, signing him beyond what he already has will be a fiasco. I guess I'm in the minority on Jones.I'm pessimistic, but haven't closed the book. Fix the OL, improve the team, and if he's healthy let him play. If he doesn't cut it next year, move on. But do not extend him in advance. Doing that I think would certainly fall on Mara.

In comment 15574250 UberAlias said:
[quote] But where I disagree is that rolling with DJ for another year as a bridge QB while improving in other major areas of need if the timing is not right is a viable option. It is quite possible that we'd be sitting here with Herbert now instead Jones if we handn't reached for the latter. [/quote
+1

In comment 15574325 UberAlias said:

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That would be a key detail to me. Saying they singled one candidate out and gave him an early favorable start would be very different than starting the process early behind the scenes when you already know your GM is gone but have not made it official to get ahead are two drastically different situations.

Why would either be that much of a drastic issue? I would hope they had started the process to some degree...

a candidate or two got an earlier start in the process...isn't that good? Don't we want that as the Giants are competing for that potential GM with other teams too?

It doesn't mean rigged or that other GMs that came into the light later didn't get a fair shake.

Can't just step aside and let someone take charge.

They act like they know what is best but all they do is screw things up.

Nothing to me. It is opinion not fact and the idea about the Mara's wanted someone green sounds stupid when you consider all the guys they looked at were sought after elsewhere.

Some specific people here will jump on what Peppers said because it fits their preconceived notions of the Mara's but I am more middle of the road- show me person.. Besides doom and bloomers will always be soon and bloomers - like extremists of any sort- their notions are right all else is wrong..

In comment 15574258 JonC said:

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on the back channels for some time. So, while they went outside the org for the new GM, you could certainly say they zero'd in on him before the interview process of all candidates began. To this extent, Peppers' perspective on the matter is not surprising and a bit concerning, given Mara's poor decision making over the past decade. Might be something, might be nothing, time will tell. I'd agree the tell(s) will be how Schoen goes about change in the front office, scouting, personnel, then Jones, and to a less extent, Saquon.

I recall you making this point several weeks ago before Schoen was hired and it stood out to me as a tell that he was going to be the clear frontrunner. And it was his to lose. I have a few friends in the media and they have indicated that Peters made a great impression and gave Mara a lot to think about. But in the end, he trusted the early homework he had done, and gave that the most weight in the decision.

Need to go, that'll be the 1st sign things will be different this go around. If Petit, among others, is still employed by Memorial Day, then we have to be concerned. To me, it's imperative the current FO gets blown out.

for Flores, if true. I don't have a problem with him expressing that to Schoen. I do have a problem with allowing it to be leaked. The leaking is what's leading to all these concerns about autonomy and possible questions down the road. Of course, that's assuming the whole thing isn't fiction.

In comment 15574372 The_Boss said:

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Need to go, that'll be the 1st sign things will be different this go around. If Petit, among others, is still employed by Memorial Day, then we have to be concerned. To me, it's imperative the current FO gets blown out.

That’s where I’m at. Not going to overreact or speculate until it’s becoming clear Abrams, Koncz & Pettit are all sticking around.

In comment 15574321 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 15574294 ryanmkeane said: Quote: there are plenty of valid reasons to suggest Flores will be a better head coach option than Daboll. But everyone wants to blame Mara, so we won't get into those. Doesn’t matter what Mara and co., SUGGEST, Schoen was given carte blanche on hirings..If Flores becomes our HC, then it’s because Schoen wants him here. Just because the vast majority believe it will be Daboll (which I do), that does not mean there’s an undermining underfoot..It means we got it wrong, imv

The mere fact that Mara and his inner circle of cronies/family would SUGGEST anyone ... is exactly the problem.

Eric, again, your "mouthpiece for the orginization" response to anything I say is completely tiresome. Grow up.

What the fuck are you guys gonna do? Now that we hired a young GM, one that which everyone seemed to be on board with, one that comes from an organization that overhauled their entire scouting process which he took part in, one that nearly everyone in the fucking NFL says was a good hire.....you're gonna what...just somehow assume that we fucked this up?

What would have been a better option? Hire Jim Harbaugh to run the entire organization? Hire Pioli? Hire some other retread GM?

All fucking year you guys bitched that you wanted to start fresh - hire a bright young mind to overhaul everything.

What's more is that we had people say things like 'wow I wish we had a coach like Flores who could actually coach and get good play out of a shitty roster." And then the second he became available, everyone said wow this is GREAT.

And then....the very SECOND that it came out that John Mara liked Flores - you guys changed your mind.

all this nonsense and Schoen hasn't even done anything yet. Wait until he actually fucks up a draft pick - I wonder what the response will be then?

'John Mara made the wrong hire.'

In comment 15574325 UberAlias said:

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That would be a key detail to me. Saying they singled one candidate out and gave him an early favorable start would be very different than starting the process early behind the scenes when you already know your GM is gone but have not made it official to get ahead are two drastically different situations.

Uber, I think it's more than likely true just based on past decisions by Mara et al. I understand your hesitation to accept it, and I've no way to 100% say it's the case, but the decision history and typical thinking of Mara suggest it is likely imv.

In comment 15574096 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 15574083 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Is that a bad thing? Gettleman's ego was enormous. Based on press clippings, it appears Schoen is very respected around the NFL. I have no reason to doubt that and I pray it is true. But if the Giants are going to really change things, Schoen has to be given the ability and be able to bring in his own scouts (both collegiate and pro personnel). He needs to be THE guy who runs the day-to-day football operation. Let's see how this plays out. But Peppers post was the most disappointing thing I've seen.

I like Peppers. Both the poster and the foodstuff.

What I've heard about the the process of hiring Schoen and John Mara's involvement with football operations are not congruent with his post from today.

I'll leave it at that.

Thrill Parcells has seen the festering of this narrative that Mara is too involved, and it's to the detriment of the team. I would not assume this is true. For example, one piece of evidence that has been regularly accepted is that Mara forced Jason Garrett on Judge -- it's wrong. That was Judge's decision, and it happened after his first choice (a guy named Brian Daboll, coincidently) wasn't permitted by Buffalo to interview.

Ask yourselves how Judge was granted autonomy to poach Graham from Miami (a very unproven DC option), but allegedly not allowed by Mara to pick his own OC.

fwiw.

saying things like "you've been wrong about everything the past 4 years" is just a way that you can prop yourself up day after day. It is so unearthly tiresome. People here are wrong about shit all the fucking time, including you. It's a message board for Giants fans. Jesus fucking christ man. Get over yourself already.

I don’t trust ownership either
GiantTuff1 : 1/24/2022 9:32 pm : link
We are already hearing “schoen loves this guy” but “Mara loves that guy”.

Who gives a fuck who Mara likes. His card should have been revoked for having an opinion on football matters, especially the second Schoen was inked and they gave us lip service that Schoen has cart blanche.

The fact we are hearing speculation of Mara’s preferences and potential interview requests for coaches his family probably likes seems already a problem. Incredibly disheartening if they are still meddling. I guess we’ll see, but the Mara’s have conditioned us to be paranoid with how incompetent and selfish they have been the last decade plus…

What Mara should do is simply help collect info and resources to aid whatever Schoen needs and otherwise STFU

we made it a week until someone had the balls to say "Schoen is just a yes man."

I'm actually shocked that it wasn't quicker than that.

Not one poster said, "I want John Mara to hire another patsy." If Mara hired Schoen because he'll do what he's told, that just makes him another in a long line of meat shields to take the fall when John and Chris fuck up.

As far as I can tell no one is saying that it's certainly what is happening, but if you aren't concerned about the possibility it's because you've had your head buried in the sand.

The situation deserves to be viewed with a skeptical eye.

In comment 15574013 JB_in_DC said:

Quote:

In comment 15574004 Eric from BBI said: Quote: posted this in the Whitt thread: Quote: There are three types of personnel guys who get to GM. The talent evaluator, the architect, and the "yes men". The Giants finalist were all yes men. No one can honestly tell you they got the best talent evaluator in the league and if they do they're being kind to a friend. Joe is a no-ego guy who is a good information gatherer. He does exactly what is asked. Maras didn't want a strong personality with experience. They wanted someone green, someone they could influence with little resistance. They got their guy. Now we are concerned the GM -- who hasn't made a single draft pick, FA signing, or coaching hire -- is a Mara Yes Man. The paranoia on this site is ridiculous. We'd have better luck discussing JFK assassination than football jesus.

i agree and tbh, eric has stirred up a lot of this. I have noticed him being very negative of late. I get it, but do we give the guy a chance? i mean by all accounts, giants found a good candidate. even from those short youtube videos, he doesnt look like a guy not prepared or without the proper mindset to do the job. My god, some fans are just soooo doom and gloom.

It's not possible for a Giants fan to be doom and gloom. Doom and gloom is an accurate description of the state of the organization over a decade.

Some of you guys would wrap yourselves in a smallpox blanket if it had an NY on it.

In comment 15574416 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Not one poster said, "I want John Mara to hire another patsy." If Mara hired Schoen because he'll do what he's told, that just makes him another in a long line of meat shields to take the fall when John and Chris fuck up.

Replace "Schoen" with "whoever the Giants hired this GM cycle." Because that's what everyone would have said, regardless of who we hired.

Poles - it would have been well Mara wants a young guy so he can still kinda oversee everything
Schoen - well he's young and even though he's impressive he'll probably just do whatever Mara tells him to do
Peters - well he's coming from a whole other realm of organization and isn't really familiar with Giants way so Mara will probably Mara-ize him soon enough.

Literally - for weeks - everyone was excited about the three finalists. And then - since everyone here likes to shit their pants at every article or every bit of "insider" info - you guys have already said fuck it.

In comment 15574413 GiantTuff1 said:

Quote:

I don’t trust ownership either GiantTuff1 : 1/24/2022 9:32 pm : link We are already hearing “schoen loves this guy” but “Mara loves that guy”. Who gives a fuck who Mara likes. His card should have been revoked for having an opinion on football matters, especially the second Schoen was inked and they gave us lip service that Schoen has cart blanche. The fact we are hearing speculation of Mara’s preferences and potential interview requests for coaches his family probably likes seems already a problem. Incredibly disheartening if they are still meddling. I guess we’ll see, but the Mara’s have conditioned us to be paranoid with how incompetent and selfish they have been the last decade plus… What Mara should do is simply help collect info and resources to aid whatever Schoen needs and otherwise STFU

It must be noted that Mara did not *say* anything here.

This was a "report" tweeted by Ralph V. The exact quote was something along go the lines of "many believe Brian Flores is John Mara's first choice."

This was not incisive, evidence-based reporting. Which makes some of meltdowns in this thread all the more amusing.

"Many believe".

Hypothetically, one could write that "many believe a small business owner with a penchant for misogynistic remarks had questionable whereabouts 346 days ago". Doesn't make it true, untrue, actionable, or otherwise demanding of commentary.

The Thrill Ride also is left to wonder. If indeed people want to "believe" that Daboll and Flores are the likeliest candidates, why are there no posts celebrating their accomplishments? Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion.

But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that?

(not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive)

In comment 15574416 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Not one poster said, "I want John Mara to hire another patsy." If Mara hired Schoen because he'll do what he's told, that just makes him another in a long line of meat shields to take the fall when John and Chris fuck up. As far as I can tell no one is saying that it's certainly what is happening, but if you aren't concerned about the possibility it's because you've had your head buried in the sand. The situation deserves to be viewed with a skeptical eye.

+1000 - BINGO.

Brian Flores seemed like a very good up and coming coach. And likely because the Dolphins are stupid, they let him go.

Why would the Giants not be extremely interested in having Flores coach the team? Why would Joe Schoen not want to seriously consider him - perhaps even give him the job?

I'll take someone who was on the trajectory of becoming a really nice head coach over an unproven coordinator. I hope Daboll will be awesome. But I want Flores to coach this team.

I’d rather have Schoen at 42 who can hopefully have this role for 10+ years than someone like Pioli who would have looked like a “giants way” hire.

I’m not wrapped up in “first time GM” - Schoen is well regarded in the league from all accounts.

Again, I need to see significant front office changes though.

And again, you miss the point.

I'll boil it down for you: who is hiring the head coach? If it's Schoen on his own, that's great. If it's anything other than that, that is a problem.

This is about process, not who gets hired. If John and Chris are hiring the head coach, then what else are they doing over the GM's head? And if that's the case why would the results change?

It fucking matters.

In comment 15574443 One Man Thrill Ride said:

Quote:

In comment 15574413 GiantTuff1 said: Quote: I don’t trust ownership either GiantTuff1 : 1/24/2022 9:32 pm : link We are already hearing “schoen loves this guy” but “Mara loves that guy”. Who gives a fuck who Mara likes. His card should have been revoked for having an opinion on football matters, especially the second Schoen was inked and they gave us lip service that Schoen has cart blanche. The fact we are hearing speculation of Mara’s preferences and potential interview requests for coaches his family probably likes seems already a problem. Incredibly disheartening if they are still meddling. I guess we’ll see, but the Mara’s have conditioned us to be paranoid with how incompetent and selfish they have been the last decade plus… What Mara should do is simply help collect info and resources to aid whatever Schoen needs and otherwise STFU It must be noted that Mara did not *say* anything here. This was a "report" tweeted by Ralph V. The exact quote was something along go the lines of "many believe Brian Flores is John Mara's first choice." This was not incisive, evidence-based reporting. Which makes some of meltdowns in this thread all the more amusing. "Many believe". Hypothetically, one could write that "many believe a small business owner with a penchant for misogynistic remarks had questionable whereabouts 346 days ago". Doesn't make it true, untrue, actionable, or otherwise demanding of commentary. The Thrill Ride also is left to wonder. If indeed people want to "believe" that Daboll and Flores are the likeliest candidates, why are there no posts celebrating their accomplishments? Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion. But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that? (not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive)

What a superb post, albeit not surprising from you..

In comment 15574443 One Man Thrill Ride said:

Quote:

In comment 15574413 GiantTuff1 said: Quote: I don’t trust ownership either GiantTuff1 : 1/24/2022 9:32 pm : link We are already hearing “schoen loves this guy” but “Mara loves that guy”. Who gives a fuck who Mara likes. His card should have been revoked for having an opinion on football matters, especially the second Schoen was inked and they gave us lip service that Schoen has cart blanche. The fact we are hearing speculation of Mara’s preferences and potential interview requests for coaches his family probably likes seems already a problem. Incredibly disheartening if they are still meddling. I guess we’ll see, but the Mara’s have conditioned us to be paranoid with how incompetent and selfish they have been the last decade plus… What Mara should do is simply help collect info and resources to aid whatever Schoen needs and otherwise STFU It must be noted that Mara did not *say* anything here. This was a "report" tweeted by Ralph V. The exact quote was something along go the lines of "many believe Brian Flores is John Mara's first choice." This was not incisive, evidence-based reporting. Which makes some of meltdowns in this thread all the more amusing. "Many believe". Hypothetically, one could write that "many believe a small business owner with a penchant for misogynistic remarks had questionable whereabouts 346 days ago". Doesn't make it true, untrue, actionable, or otherwise demanding of commentary. The Thrill Ride also is left to wonder. If indeed people want to "believe" that Daboll and Flores are the likeliest candidates, why are there no posts celebrating their accomplishments? Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion. But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that? (not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive)

You are doing great work in this thread.

I applaud you.

The media sucks, plain and simple. A million examples of it every day, in all aspects of life.

I can definitely see it makes for more interesting posts and discussions. Simple truths can be boring.

Like Daboll being reported as the clear favorite somehow got boring of all of sudden...

Ok, Eric has stated that Peppers is at the top of his list for accurate sources.

I will presume that Peppers has given information previous to Shoen or Shoen's agents coming to NY. And if Peppers has been more accurate than others, that would indicate his sources are likely in the organization, rather than players or player agents.

Given all that, I can see where current people in the organization aren't happy with an "outsider" coming in. Schoen is a potential threat to almost anyone in the FO who isn't an owner. And that's true for any business that hires outside because of past performance...the guys inside start sweating.

So is if far fetched to think that Peppers sources (who likely have been growing mold in the FO for years) may try to discredit Schoen as a Mara "yes" man? It would take the sting out of them getting released by the organization, since they can tell other NFL teams Schoen was just doing Mara's dirty work to deflect blame. It's better than admitting they stunk at their jobs, and Schoen was cleaning out the trash.

By the way, Schoen had other NFL teams looking to get him as GM (as did Peters and Poles). While I don't think that any of them are as abrasive as George Young was, I doubt that they are pushovers. I think it's more likely Peppers sources are pushing an agenda.

In comment 15574452 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Brian Flores seemed like a very good up and coming coach. And likely because the Dolphins are stupid, they let him go.

They just fired the first head coach to bring the Dolphins their first back to back winning seasons in 20 years.

They fired that coach because...they're dumb? You're not the least bit willing to consider there are other reasons?

In comment 15573986 UberAlias said:

Quote:

If it's Flores, then Mara forced him on Schoen. If it's Daboll, then Schoen was locked in on him because it's his buddy.

Yes sir, I think you get.

In comment 15574443 One Man Thrill Ride said:

Quote:

Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion. But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that? (not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive)

There has been plenty of conversations discussing Daboll's offensive approach. Just because you missed them doesn't mean they don't exist. And there has been plenty of conversations about the work Flores did in Miami with a limited QB.

And here is what Buffalo vs Miami has revealed the last four years - Buffalo has Josh Allen and Miami doesn't. Buffalo has owned Miami with Allen - 7-1 record, 21/5 TD/INT, 63% completion %, 7.8 YPA, 4 rushing TDs. He's a Hall of Fame QB who is becoming impossible to defend.

This isn't a conspiracy. It's questioning Mara's role in the hiring process of a HC; and if he's already contradicted his words when he said the GM was in charge in hiring the HC.

Sometimes getting out of the Kool Aid line is a very healthy thing...

“We will hire a general manager and that person will lead the effort to hire a new head coach,” Mara said.

In comment 15574372 The_Boss said:

Quote:

Need to go, that'll be the 1st sign things will be different this go around. If Petit, among others, is still employed by Memorial Day, then we have to be concerned. To me, it's imperative the current FO gets blown out.

Yeah, this is where I’m at. Petit is the key exec for me. Although I would fire him, keeping Abrams could be defended, given his admin focus. Koncz and Schoen know each other well. Don’t know where that will go.

I do think people are overreacting to Ralph’s tweet. We’re all worried. I think that franchise is in absolute crisis. But a tweet like that doesn’t move the needle.

The Mara narrative holds no interest to me. He s the owner, not going to change. If you re peddling things will never get better with him in charge, and I think that s the message I m hearing even from Eric now, what s the point of being a fan?

Giants have sucked, Mara in the end is responsible. But he made sweeping changes and we re still here?

Maybe you re right and Giants will never win again with him as owner. Personally, I m not interested in that discussion anymore. What s the point, nothing discussed here will change what the truth is.

I d rather spend time being hopeful about Schoen, the new Coach, the draft, etc.

Why are we arguing about whether Mara has changed or not, we have no way of knowing?

I can’t believe 5 days after hiring outside the he organization we have the leading thread of the day being about Mara s interference again

Seems to be an exercise in futility.

Daboll takes the Miami job? Who takes the hit for that?

The Schoen hire made Daboll the obvious favorite candidate, many in the media immediately jumped on the connection to Buff, and all kinds of "predictions" started coming out.

The Giants org outside of Schoen had favorable impressions on many possible coaches.

Daboll came in early and had a great interview and suddenly due to the loss on Sunday is available now, BEFORE the Rooney Rule requirements have been met. The Giants begin interviewing possible coordinators, but haven't completed the interview process for HC.

The Giants must proceed with the remaining interviews regardless and decide to "leak" that they are seriously interested in the remaining candidates. It should be obvious why they would want that to be published.

The way it ends up being leaked is that there is a comment made that there is a strong preference for some of the other candidates. BBI and other segments of the fanbase melt down that we aren't just leaving the hire up to Schoen, beginning the speculation that ownership is meddling in the process.

That seems to me to be the most likely course of events over the past week.

In comment 15574250 UberAlias said:

Quote:

But where I disagree is that rolling with DJ for another year as a bridge QB while improving in other major areas of need if the timing is not right is a viable option. It is quite possible that we'd be sitting here with Herbert now instead Jones if we handn't reached for the latter.

And Herbert would have been in the same boat DJ is in now.

In comment 15574616 Dan in the Springs said:

Quote:

The Schoen hire made Daboll the obvious favorite candidate, many in the media immediately jumped on the connection to Buff, and all kinds of "predictions" started coming out. The Giants org outside of Schoen had favorable impressions on many possible coaches. Daboll came in early and had a great interview and suddenly due to the loss on Sunday is available now, BEFORE the Rooney Rule requirements have been met. The Giants begin interviewing possible coordinators, but haven't completed the interview process for HC. The Giants must proceed with the remaining interviews regardless and decide to "leak" that they are seriously interested in the remaining candidates. It should be obvious why they would want that to be published. The way it ends up being leaked is that there is a comment made that there is a strong preference for some of the other candidates. BBI and other segments of the fanbase melt down that we aren't just leaving the hire up to Schoen, beginning the speculation that ownership is meddling in the process. That seems to me to be the most likely course of events over the past week.

Well said

In comment 15574297 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 15574294 ryanmkeane said: Quote: there are plenty of valid reasons to suggest Flores will be a better head coach option than Daboll. But everyone wants to blame Mara, so we won't get into those. That's not the issue. Gun to my head, I'd probably go with Flores. The issue is the GM should make the pick. If they override him, they should have hired another GM.

Mara is the owner of the team. To expect him to have zero input is crazy to me. He's not gonna just hire a GM and then go play golf and let the GM run the show. But I believe it when Mara says the GM has the final say in the hiring of the next HC. If Flores is hired it doesn't mean he was forced on Schoen.

In comment 15574588 joeinpa said:

Quote:

The Mara narrative holds no interest to me. He s the owner, not going to change. If you re peddling things will never get better with him in charge, and I think that s the message I m hearing even from Eric now, what s the point of being a fan? Giants have sucked, Mara in the end is responsible. But he made sweeping changes and we re still here? Maybe you re right and Giants will never win again with him as owner. Personally, I m not interested in that discussion anymore. What s the point, nothing discussed here will change what the truth is. I d rather spend time being hopeful about Schoen, the new Coach, the draft, etc. Why are we arguing about whether Mara has changed or not, we have no way of knowing? I can’t believe 5 days after hiring outside the he organization we have the leading thread of the day being about Mara s interference again Seems to be an exercise in futility.

Well said joe.

In comment 15574547 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15574443 One Man Thrill Ride said: Quote: Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion. But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that? (not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive) There has been plenty of conversations discussing Daboll's offensive approach. Just because you missed them doesn't mean they don't exist. And there has been plenty of conversations about the work Flores did in Miami with a limited QB. And here is what Buffalo vs Miami has revealed the last four years - Buffalo has Josh Allen and Miami doesn't. Buffalo has owned Miami with Allen - 7-1 record, 21/5 TD/INT, 63% completion %, 7.8 YPA, 4 rushing TDs. He's a Hall of Fame QB who is becoming impossible to defend. This isn't a conspiracy. It's questioning Mara's role in the hiring process of a HC; and if he's already contradicted his words when he said the GM was in charge in hiring the HC. Sometimes getting out of the Kool Aid line is a very healthy thing...

Ahhh, I must have missed those detailed conversations. Unfortunately, the Thrill Ride, an intellectual of international repute, cannot patrol BBI for 23 hours a day and post on every thread. Just this afternoon, the line for Kool Aid was unusually slow. Some say it's a supply chain issue, but others speculate the pigheaded owner of the Kool Aid company is micro-managing the water::sugar ratios and ruining the beloved family business.

bw, you are an impressive football savant flourishing amidst a sea of degeneracy. To grind the tape on all eight of those MIA-BUF games in the brief 31 minutes between our posts. Peak efficiency -- is this how you elegantly skate through life's uncertainties?

Those are some nice composite stats from Josh A., all the more impressive when you consider he was evidently playing 1 vs. 11.

Do me this kindness. When you take a break from taking a break and find a spare moment, perhaps summarize the attitudes of the Daboll's philosophy on offense. I'd like to know what insights those elite, high-level conversations produced.

Do you think Daboll's blending of zone and gap scheme concepts might be too ambitious in year 1 of a rebuild? Do we have the existing personnel to run power, counter, etc.? What about the pass game? Is the preponderance of motion, jet motion, orbit motion, etc. coupled with a high rate of play action stressing defenses in ways that create opportunities for the QB? How might Daboll shape an offense with a differently skilled QB?

In the games you scouted, how did Flores attempt to stymie this varied attack? Did he lean on his predilection for cover-0 and employ primarily five-man fronts? Did the Bills pre-snap tactics create confusion for the force defenders and alley defenders? Did they try pattern match zone concepts, knowing an aggressive man-heavy approach would leave them susceptible to scrambles by an athletic QB? What adjustments did Flores make, game over game, in the face of the losing streak?

Thanks for the offering to help. Looking forward to your response. I think both these coaches could do well here!

is tremendous

is one of the true jewelz of BBI.

In comment 15574686 bigbluehoya said:

Quote:

is one of the true jewelz of BBI.

He really is..It’s nice to see common sense prevail..Kudos

In comment 15574588 joeinpa said:

Quote:

The Mara narrative holds no interest to me. He s the owner, not going to change. If you re peddling things will never get better with him in charge, and I think that s the message I m hearing even from Eric now, what s the point of being a fan? Giants have sucked, Mara in the end is responsible. But he made sweeping changes and we re still here? Maybe you re right and Giants will never win again with him as owner. Personally, I m not interested in that discussion anymore. What s the point, nothing discussed here will change what the truth is. Best post of this thread. End of discussion :) I d rather spend time being hopeful about Schoen, the new Coach, the draft, etc. Why are we arguing about whether Mara has changed or not, we have no way of knowing? I can’t believe 5 days after hiring outside the he organization we have the leading thread of the day being about Mara s interference again Seems to be an exercise in futility.

In comment 15574661 One Man Thrill Ride said:

Quote:

In comment 15574547 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15574443 One Man Thrill Ride said: Quote: Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion. But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that? (not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive) There has been plenty of conversations discussing Daboll's offensive approach. Just because you missed them doesn't mean they don't exist. And there has been plenty of conversations about the work Flores did in Miami with a limited QB. And here is what Buffalo vs Miami has revealed the last four years - Buffalo has Josh Allen and Miami doesn't. Buffalo has owned Miami with Allen - 7-1 record, 21/5 TD/INT, 63% completion %, 7.8 YPA, 4 rushing TDs. He's a Hall of Fame QB who is becoming impossible to defend. This isn't a conspiracy. It's questioning Mara's role in the hiring process of a HC; and if he's already contradicted his words when he said the GM was in charge in hiring the HC. Sometimes getting out of the Kool Aid line is a very healthy thing... Ahhh, I must have missed those detailed conversations. Unfortunately, the Thrill Ride, an intellectual of international repute, cannot patrol BBI for 23 hours a day and post on every thread. Just this afternoon, the line for Kool Aid was unusually slow. Some say it's a supply chain issue, but others speculate the pigheaded owner of the Kool Aid company is micro-managing the water::sugar ratios and ruining the beloved family business. bw, you are an impressive football savant flourishing amidst a sea of degeneracy. To grind the tape on all eight of those MIA-BUF games in the brief 31 minutes between our posts. Peak efficiency -- is this how you elegantly skate through life's uncertainties? Those are some nice composite stats from Josh A., all the more impressive when you consider he was evidently playing 1 vs. 11. Do me this kindness. When you take a break from taking a break and find a spare moment, perhaps summarize the attitudes of the Daboll's philosophy on offense. I'd like to know what insights those elite, high-level conversations produced. Do you think Daboll's blending of zone and gap scheme concepts might be too ambitious in year 1 of a rebuild? Do we have the existing personnel to run power, counter, etc.? What about the pass game? Is the preponderance of motion, jet motion, orbit motion, etc. coupled with a high rate of play action stressing defenses in ways that create opportunities for the QB? How might Daboll shape an offense with a differently skilled QB? In the games you scouted, how did Flores attempt to stymie this varied attack? Did he lean on his predilection for cover-0 and employ primarily five-man fronts? Did the Bills pre-snap tactics create confusion for the force defenders and alley defenders? Did they try pattern match zone concepts, knowing an aggressive man-heavy approach would leave them susceptible to scrambles by an athletic QB? What adjustments did Flores make, game over game, in the face of the losing streak? Thanks for the offering to help. Looking forward to your response. I think both these coaches could do well here!

This is one hell of a buzzword salad.

Both Daboll and Flores are good candidates.

It's not like hiring Urban Meyer.

.

In comment 15574667 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

is tremendous

I know right? Fantastique!

"predilection" more frequently in my posts now that I looked up what it meant...

:-)

In comment 15574452 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Brian Flores seemed like a very good up and coming coach. And likely because the Dolphins are stupid, they let him go. Why would the Giants not be extremely interested in having Flores coach the team? Why would Joe Schoen not want to seriously consider him - perhaps even give him the job? I'll take someone who was on the trajectory of becoming a really nice head coach over an unproven coordinator. I hope Daboll will be awesome. But I want Flores to coach this team.

The Dolphins fired Flores because they're stupid. Got it.

The Giants have the worst record in the league over the past five years, but they're smart enough to see that the Dolphins were foolish to fire Flores. Got it.

Do you realize how insane your posts get sometimes?

I appreciate the reply. And I am glad you found your way out of the Kool-Aid line.

The modern game is largely driven by the QB's performance. Thus, that's why the synopsis of Allen's performance was provided. Sometimes less is more, but just as powerful. Perhaps you need to take another look at those aggregate numbers and let them sink in this time. I would think a man of such "intellectual...international repute" would be able to make the connection.

It's premature to answer your questions about Daboll's offensive approach with NYG - assuming he gets the nod - because we don't know who the QB is going to be. Nothing is getting solved/incorporated until that is answered. So, guessing is an exercise in futility. And, of course, building out a new roster in general.

If Jones is the QB, my guess/hope is Daboll will look to speed up Jones's decision making by getting him on the move more to make one read throws. And find a RB who runs with a more one cut, north-south style. But until we know the constituent parts, it's really not productive.

I am encouraged, however, by the idea that Daboll doesn't run "his system" and force players to fit into it. He's doesn't force square pegs into round holes. His approach seems malleable; and he's very open minded to finding systems that fit the talent. Which is exactly what he did in Buffalo with Allen. That's encouraging.

Frankly, I don't know anything about Flores's defensive game-planning from game-to-game v Buffalo. My guess is you don't either. But it doesn't speak well of Flores approach because Buffalo has basically scored at will, averaging close to 35PPG. I'm certainly all ears if you actually do have a handle on what you write. Alas, I am dubious. But fire away to prove me wrong.

In comment 15574661 One Man Thrill Ride said:

Quote:

Thanks for the offering to help. Looking forward to your response. I think both these coaches could do well here!

Bravo….Bravo. This is the best post I have seen on here in a very long time. Well done Thrill.

What it comes down to is this:

You guys have created the narrative that Schoen might not be able to operate on his own. And if our coaching hire fits your narrative, you’ll still blame Mara every single day until we start playing games.

And if we suck with Flores, you’ll blame Mara.

If we stuck with Daboll, you’ll say “well at least we have a plan. I’m happy.”

All because of stupid theories created by fans who hate John Mara.

And then Terps will respond with things like “you guys just don’t get it” because he’s been on this board for the last 3 years saying Daniel Jones sucks and that means his opinion matters more than the rest of us.

Nah - we get it. We just realize that Mara is the owner of the team and that isn’t changing. He was the owner of the team for our last two Super Bowls. So unless he goes brain dead overnight he is still gonna be around and hopefully he just hired the right guy.

I’m not gonna sit here just to bitch and moan about Schoen and the coach and go against every single person that works in the NFL who basically said we made a strong hire. If you guys on BBI want to create narratives based on your own Mara obsession then be my guest. But people throughout the NFL applauded the move.

Whoever the coach ends up being is just another piece to the rebuild and hopefully we make the right hire. Plenty of people here want Flores, and that includes people who have been here forever through the good and the bad.

In comment 15574867 ryanmkeane said:

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What it comes down to is this: You guys have created the narrative that Schoen might not be able to operate on his own. And if our coaching hire fits your narrative, you’ll still blame Mara every single day until we start playing games. And if we suck with Flores, you’ll blame Mara. If we stuck with Daboll, you’ll say “well at least we have a plan. I’m happy.” All because of stupid theories created by fans who hate John Mara.

I don't think you are looking at this correctly. The majority of this board WANT Schoen to own and control this hiring process. So, what you are seeing is disappointment, not a need to establish a narrative - IMV.

In comment 15574867 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

What it comes down to is this: You guys have created the narrative that Schoen might not be able to operate on his own. And if our coaching hire fits your narrative, you’ll still blame Mara every single day until we start playing games. And if we suck with Flores, you’ll blame Mara. If we stuck with Daboll, you’ll say “well at least we have a plan. I’m happy.” All because of stupid theories created by fans who hate John Mara.

Or, you can just own the fact that you want Flores.

And if Flores is the choice and he's great, bravo. And if he's the choice and he sucks, it'll just be yet another example of Ryan slurping at the Mara fountain, and you'll never eat a bite of crow.

Just own your preference. No more "let's see how it plays out" nonsense. It's a fucking message board. Of course we're going to see how it plays out. Say who you want and deal with being right or wrong.

I'll even jump right in:

My top choice is Brian Daboll.

My second choice is DeMeco Ryans, who doesn't appear to even be a candidate at this time.

My third choice would be Mike McDaniel (also not a candidate at this time), but I don't think we live on a planet where Mara would ever sign off on him as HC, so my revised third choice is Dan Quinn.

I have no problem going on record as saying that I don't want Brian Flores as HC. If he gets hired, I will root for him all the way and would be thrilled to be wrong in my instincts that he's another Judge. But I have no problem putting it out there that I don't want Flores.

I don't think Frazier or Graham make any sense as HC options, and I think both are/were courtesy interviews.

Your turn.

nothing happened.

But glad to see y'all getting along. Haha.

Do all these theories go away? Because it’s clear Daboll is Schoen driven.

In comment 15574910 UConn4523 said:

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nothing happened.

What are you responding to?

In comment 15574922 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15574910 UConn4523 said: Quote: nothing happened. What are you responding to?

Nevermind, I see BW's post that you were referring to.

In comment 15574917 Sean said:

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Do all these theories go away? Because it’s clear Daboll is Schoen driven.

For me, hiring Daboll would demonstrate that Schoen led the process and got his man.

In comment 15574917 Sean said:

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Do all these theories go away? Because it’s clear Daboll is Schoen driven.

Probably not.

'Back and to the left. Back and to the left. Back and to the left.'

In comment 15574917 Sean said:

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Do all these theories go away? Because it’s clear Daboll is Schoen driven.

Daboll is the guy I want, but I'm going to have a hard time believing John and Chris will ever step back. I believe Schoen was probably the prescribed hire before the process started.

And that doesn't mean that Schoen or Daboll are bad - I'm happy with both.

I just don't trust John and Chris not to interfere. Like I said above, I think Jones is the big canary in the coal mine because keeping him beyond 2022 doesn't make sense under any scenario - if they do that's Mara, and that's a red alert situation.

1. Flores. Two winning seasons with a shitty Miami roster. Seems to be a no bullshit type of leader. Hate to say it but a minority coach matters with todays athletes. Love that he’s from the city and seems to be a NYG type of dude. Hard nosed. Had to work for everything he was given. And more importantly - I think he did a really nice job in a bad situation and ultimately ownership wanted to go in another direction because clearly they had their differences. It is known that he didn’t want Tua. Tua hasn’t done much so I would trust his judgement on that one. I think he could lead our team out of the depths of awfulness but he’d need a stud OC that would be aligned with him to really sell his plan to Schoen. As soon as he was let go by Miami I wanted him to be the guy.

2. Daboll. Pretty much for the offense alone I think he’d be great but I don’t necessarily love that he has never actually been a head coach and had to be the voice of a whole team. He seems to be a real laid back kinda dude. Very respected obviously but he has bounced around a ton. I’m sure he can be a good head coach but I’m taking the more proven guy in Flores over him.

3. Pederson. Got a raw deal on Philly. The guy won a super bowl with nick foles as his quarterback and if not for a drop against Saints he might have been on his way to another with Foles as QB. Think he’s a good leader and really good playcaller. Just as good of a play caller as Daboll in my opinion. And he’s got experience in the big games.

4. Ryans - would have liked to have interviewed him but clearly that’s not happening. Seems to be an up and coming leader and he’s putting on a clinic right now in the playoffs against some really good offenses.

In comment 15574926 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15574917 Sean said: Quote: Do all these theories go away? Because it’s clear Daboll is Schoen driven. For me, hiring Daboll would demonstrate that Schoen led the process and got his man.

Same. And that's why it's going to happen. Outside of Harbaugh (which apparently isn't happening), there are no demonstrably better candidates.

In comment 15574986 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

1. Flores. Two winning seasons with a shitty Miami roster. Seems to be a no bullshit type of leader. Hate to say it but a minority coach matters with todays athletes. Love that he’s from the city and seems to be a NYG type of dude. Hard nosed. Had to work for everything he was given. And more importantly - I think he did a really nice job in a bad situation and ultimately ownership wanted to go in another direction because clearly they had their differences. It is known that he didn’t want Tua. Tua hasn’t done much so I would trust his judgement on that one. I think he could lead our team out of the depths of awfulness but he’d need a stud OC that would be aligned with him to really sell his plan to Schoen. As soon as he was let go by Miami I wanted him to be the guy. 2. Daboll. Pretty much for the offense alone I think he’d be great but I don’t necessarily love that he has never actually been a head coach and had to be the voice of a whole team. He seems to be a real laid back kinda dude. Very respected obviously but he has bounced around a ton. I’m sure he can be a good head coach but I’m taking the more proven guy in Flores over him. 3. Pederson. Got a raw deal on Philly. The guy won a super bowl with nick foles as his quarterback and if not for a drop against Saints he might have been on his way to another with Foles as QB. Think he’s a good leader and really good playcaller. Just as good of a play caller as Daboll in my opinion. And he’s got experience in the big games. 4. Ryans - would have liked to have interviewed him but clearly that’s not happening. Seems to be an up and coming leader and he’s putting on a clinic right now in the playoffs against some really good offenses.

When you actually articulate your thoughts instead of just defending the team at all turns, you have some really interesting views, Ryan.

I genuinely wish you would post more like this instead of the standard "let's wait and see" mantra. Either way, thanks for sharing your POV.

In comment 15574986 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

1. Flores. Two winning seasons with a shitty Miami roster. Seems to be a no bullshit type of leader. Hate to say it but a minority coach matters with todays athletes. Love that he’s from the city and seems to be a NYG type of dude. Hard nosed. Had to work for everything he was given. And more importantly - I think he did a really nice job in a bad situation and ultimately ownership wanted to go in another direction because clearly they had their differences. It is known that he didn’t want Tua. Tua hasn’t done much so I would trust his judgement on that one. I think he could lead our team out of the depths of awfulness but he’d need a stud OC that would be aligned with him to really sell his plan to Schoen. As soon as he was let go by Miami I wanted him to be the guy. 2. Daboll. Pretty much for the offense alone I think he’d be great but I don’t necessarily love that he has never actually been a head coach and had to be the voice of a whole team. He seems to be a real laid back kinda dude. Very respected obviously but he has bounced around a ton. I’m sure he can be a good head coach but I’m taking the more proven guy in Flores over him. 3. Pederson. Got a raw deal on Philly. The guy won a super bowl with nick foles as his quarterback and if not for a drop against Saints he might have been on his way to another with Foles as QB. Think he’s a good leader and really good playcaller. Just as good of a play caller as Daboll in my opinion. And he’s got experience in the big games. 4. Ryans - would have liked to have interviewed him but clearly that’s not happening. Seems to be an up and coming leader and he’s putting on a clinic right now in the playoffs against some really good offenses.

Agree with pretty much all that you posted. I feel similarly. I won't be sad if it's Daboll or Flores but I am kind of leaning to Flores based on what you say here. And I know it's not popular but I wouldn't be sad for Peterson.... lol. And I don't even hat the idea of Dan Quinn.

Daboll is laid back almost to the point of seems like he’s not interested. That obviously isn’t the case. But if things are going south I’m not entirely sure his personality is going to fit here.

involvement in the team that he owns than who would be the better coach.

In comment 15573916 bLiTz 2k said:

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In comment 15573906 JB_in_DC said: Quote: to protect against any perception of flouting the Rooney rule? Conspiracy theories aside, this was literally my first thought.

Same here, this is just a PR move. Too bad they didn't name Chris Mara as the Flores fan, just to have some fun with BBI.

his going through 4 different OC's in 3 seasons is very troubling for a team like us that is already pretty much in the Stone Ages with our offense and very badly needs some good offensive coaching going forward. The offense has to be the main focus going forward. For those reasons alone, I'd rather go with Daboll.

In comment 15574114 Eric from BBI said:

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the tell is going to be Daniel Jones. I would throw Barkley in there too. Will Schoen and the next HC have complete authority to decide the future of Jones and Barkley?

And how will you know the answer to this? Let me guess: if the Giants do what you think they should do with Jones and Barkley it means Schoen and the head coach have complete authority and if they don't do what you think they should do it means that they don't have complete authority. Did I guess correctly?

The confidence and smugness from posters who barely know the shape of a football...remarkable.

In comment 15575052 Go Terps said:

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The confidence and smugness from posters who barely know the shape of a football...remarkable.

With how wrong they've been for years now, too. Hilarious.

In comment 15575052 Go Terps said:

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The confidence and smugness from posters who barely know the shape of a football...remarkable.

Ummm? I have no idea of your football background and... Not for nothing but pot meet kettle and all that? lol

Just sayin. Not trying to be a Richard because I do like a lot of your posts... but sometimes... lol

is pretty damn funny.

In comment 15575022 ryanmkeane said:

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Daboll is laid back almost to the point of seems like he’s not interested. That obviously isn’t the case. But if things are going south I’m not entirely sure his personality is going to fit here.

Don't underestimate the power of an unshakable hand in the face of a storm.

Sometimes a fiery HC personality is exactly what players tune out when they're already on the verge of making business decisions. "Fuck this guy" is a really easy conclusion to reach when your salary is guaranteed for next season.

In comment 15575121 UConn4523 said:

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is pretty damn funny.

Smugness doesn't bother me if the poster knows what they're talking about.

The head in the sand crew that's been clueless for years and accusing everyone else of being miserable - that's quite a load of bullshit.

In comment 15574941 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15574917 Sean said: Quote: Do all these theories go away? Because it’s clear Daboll is Schoen driven. Daboll is the guy I want, but I'm going to have a hard time believing John and Chris will ever step back. I believe Schoen was probably the prescribed hire before the process started. And that doesn't mean that Schoen or Daboll are bad - I'm happy with both. I just don't trust John and Chris not to interfere. Like I said above, I think Jones is the big canary in the coal mine because keeping him beyond 2022 doesn't make sense under any scenario - if they do that's Mara, and that's a red alert situation.

There's a 2nd canary in Barkley.

If Schoen has carte blance...we'll know soon enough, in that we don't exercise DJ's 5th year option & don't resign Saquon. Hell, I hope we trade Saquon for whatever.

Barkley too, definitely.

I was encouraged when Mara said that Jones and Barkley would be up to the new GM. We'll see if he was telling the truth - until then there is no reason to believe him.

I guess from our perspective.

Is that bad because the new GM, that was a clear favorite and given a head start by the Mara’s, is intrinsically linked to Daboll, and therefore he himself is now also tarnished?

Will our Owners ever see the errors of their ways? Will they remove themselves from all football decisions because they know not what they do?

Tune in tomorrow.

Same Bat time
Same Bat channel

In comment 15575154 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15575121 UConn4523 said: Quote: is pretty damn funny. Smugness doesn't bother me if the poster knows what they're talking about. The head in the sand crew that's been clueless for years and accusing everyone else of being miserable - that's quite a load of bullshit.

People root for the team, news at 11. BBI clout matters to a very small minority of posters. “Being right” hasn’t gotten anyone here, anywhere. Unless of course you are gambling then yeah, being right comes in handy.

In comment 15575206 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15575154 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 15575121 UConn4523 said: Quote: is pretty damn funny. Smugness doesn't bother me if the poster knows what they're talking about. The head in the sand crew that's been clueless for years and accusing everyone else of being miserable - that's quite a load of bullshit. People root for the team, news at 11. BBI clout matters to a very small minority of posters. “Being right” hasn’t gotten anyone here, anywhere. Unless of course you are gambling then yeah, being right comes in handy.

Being right here isn't all that handy, agreed. Remembering those who have outed themselves as clueless (in many cases, aggressively and smugly so) is useful and a good source of humor.

Quote:

It must be noted that Mara did not *say* anything here. This was a "report" tweeted by Ralph V. The exact quote was something along go the lines of "many believe Brian Flores is John Mara's first choice." This was not incisive, evidence-based reporting. Which makes some of meltdowns in this thread all the more amusing. "Many believe". Hypothetically, one could write that "many believe a small business owner with a penchant for misogynistic remarks had questionable whereabouts 346 days ago". Doesn't make it true, untrue, actionable, or otherwise demanding of commentary. The Thrill Ride also is left to wonder. If indeed people want to "believe" that Daboll and Flores are the likeliest candidates, why are there no posts celebrating their accomplishments? Or videos detailing their schematic skill? Weighing the pro's and con's of these two desirable candidates who will have multiple opportunities at head coaching vacancies? Their teams played each other 6 times in the last three years, and those outcomes might inform an opinion. But instead of talking about sports and the joys of the game, somehow this conversation gets steered repeatedly into a conspiracy theorist narrative. Why is that? (not singling you out, Mr. Tuff1, just using your post as.a jumping off point to redirect the conversation into something more productive)

Thrill, yes it's not enough to close the case and throw Mara in jail yet, but ask yourself why is it "believed" that "many" think Flores is Mara's choice? He would have had to say something or expressed his feelings to his inner circle, right?

Is it a leap to believe that Ralph needed to be confident in that being the case to float this out there? Ralph has been fairly spot on, and while I've had my issues with Ralph's reporting style over the years he's been much more on the ball and grounded lately. This makes me feel he isn't just making shit up to stir pots.

When you are a journalist -- and I went to one of the best J schools in the country -- if you are pretty damn sure this is the case and it has been corroborated by multiple sources you trust (i.e. "many") but the person (Mara) hasn't said it directly to you (because why would he?) then you might attribute it this way. I get it, it sounds weak to those with your stance who see an opening to attack it, but a good reporter does not conjure this purely from thin air if you believe Ralph has any integrity at all.

So basically what I'm saying is I trust Ralph more than I trust you or any other optimist on the board at this time. And the reason we are getting upset is because there are a litany of examples in the last decade of Mara's and the front office's meddling and poor decision making which is casting doubt in our minds.

And not a problem using my post as a leverage point to steer what you feel is a more productive conversation. For me, and several others on this board, the most productive outcome at this time is Mara and his family getting out of Schoen's way.

This supersedes the X's and O's on the field. What we see on the field, for the most part, is a symptom of the root of the Giants higher level operation. And the root has been rotten for a long time and one of the primary reasons for that is the family's involvement in football operations. THAT is why we're skeptical, disappointed, and somewhat freaking out when we hear reports like Ralph's although we hope that is not the case the Mara's have given us little reason to believe in them or that they can change their stripes. Mara alluded to their shattering the Giants fans' trust.

I'm still trying to take this report with a grain of salt so excuse the associated rage at times -- but the reason emotions are high is this a major problem. If Mara and his inner circle are helicopter parenting Schoen this will all end in disaster again in a few years and as Terps said they will nonchalantly push Schoen into the slaughter house and set up the next "meatshield"... That is their history. And those who don't learn from it... well you know how that saying goes. That's why we push back.

In the end we all want what's best for the Giants.

to the last paragraph where it basically became somewhat sensational. Not even sure what the "helicopter parenting" and "meatshield" references are pointing to with regards to the recent NY Giant past. Can you clear those up for me?

where if Mara said it was cold and raining some of you would deliberately lose your raincoat gear and walk outside in shorts.

the biggest downgrade in BBI discussions lately is that every time someone here doesn't completely condemn a move or action by NYG, even if that person simply calls for an open minded approach, half this place yells the same same they yell 1000 times now. NYG HAVE SUCKED FOR X amount of years"

I think we know that by now. Maybe come up with something more constructive? That's lazy copout retort that doesn't really resolve or question the actual take in question. Like, if someone says Mara is behind this whole charade and someone else says well what if the new GM truly does like Flores and the angry person that says "NYG SUCK BALLS FOR !@() years now"---that right there, that retort sucks balls.

Just saying.

and the spyware / insane pop ups that completely crash the browser. I can't even post the URL because the whole page goes ape shit.

In comment 15575647 djm said:

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where if Mara said it was cold and raining some of you would deliberately lose your raincoat gear and walk outside in shorts.

died at the age of a hundred and three. For fifteen years she kept her viginity; not a bad record for this vicinity.

.