In the Bills/Chiefs game thread a poster mentioned that the Bills should have held the chiefs receivers on the :13 second drive sacrifice the 5 yards and drain the time.
This seems like something a smart coach like belicheck or vrabel will pull in a key game.
Another one I thought teams may use is on 4th downs or 2 point conversion, the quarterback can have a mid-play safe word, which can signal all blockers to hold the defenders.
This would allow a quarterback to check the read (if receiver is open), before telling blockers to hold. The blatant holds should allow the play to still be successful although there will be the flag.
This would let the team replay the down and kick an extra point or punt. Kinda taking a lot of the risk out of the play.
Does this sound crazy, or am I onto something?
The idea is that all of the holds should allow for an easy conversion
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If on 4th down the offense is holding on a play the defense could just decline the penalty. The play would have to be successful in order for it to be replayed and offensive holding doesn't guarantee it.
The idea is that all of the holds should allow for an easy conversion
But it won't.
There are 11 players on defense and only 10 on offense (since the QB won't be holding anyone).
Plus someone on offense has to catch the pass from the QB. So now you have 9 offensive players trying to hold 11 defensive players.
To say nothing of the fact that if the D chooses to rush only three now two of your OL has to make it to the second or third level to hold defensive players.
You also haven't accounted for the time it takes for the QB to read the defense post snap, see that everyone is covered and somehow signal to his teammates that they now have to hold. By the time you execute that manuver one of his WRs could have worked his way open.
It really doesn't make much sense.
What does this even mean? There is no conversion if the play is called back for holding. Your theoretical 4th and 5 conversion becomes a 4th and 15. You're either negating the play and losing 10 yards, or simply losing a down if the play didn't work and the defense declines the penalty.
Am I completely misunderstanding what you are saying?
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If on 4th down the offense is holding on a play the defense could just decline the penalty. The play would have to be successful in order for it to be replayed and offensive holding doesn't guarantee it.
The idea is that all of the holds should allow for an easy conversion
I thought of that the other night watching the game. It's not a bad move. As far as I can tell, the only downside is the penalty would negate a turnover.
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I think most would agree that you're more likely to run a successful play if you violate the rules in ways to make it easier for yourself. Except for those pesky officials. Are you suggesting teams commit penalties simply in the hope that the refs don't notice and they get away with it? While plenty of calls are missed, it seems implausible that an entire offensive line could commit holding and it would go uncaught by the refs.
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The idea is that all of the holds should allow for an easy conversion
I think most would agree that you're more likely to run a successful play if you violate the rules in ways to make it easier for yourself. Except for those pesky officials. Are you suggesting teams commit penalties simply in the hope that the refs don't notice and they get away with it? While plenty of calls are missed, it seems implausible that an entire offensive line could commit holding and it would go uncaught by the refs.
I’m suggesting that if the play is going south, this is a way of getting the yardage needed (along with the penalty), defending team accepts the penalty obviously and now you can either punt or kick an extra point (depending on the situation; as opposed to a turnover on downs or failed two point conversion
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The official rule states: A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock. The penalty for a violation is 15 yards. The game clock will also be reset to where it had been prior to the previous snap.
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Good call! I remember this.
In the article it does specifically say “in order to manipulate the clock” which wouldn’t be the goal of this play.
With that said, I wouldn’t doubt that this rule could be applied to my scenario.
You literally said the Bills should have held "to drain the time."
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In the article it does specifically say “in order to manipulate the clock” which wouldn’t be the goal of this play.
You literally said the Bills should have held "to drain the time."
My bad, thought you were referring to the offensive holding example.
I guess that makes the defensive holding off the table.
So, no, you're not onto something.
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The official rule states: A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock. The penalty for a violation is 15 yards. The game clock will also be reset to where it had been prior to the previous snap.
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Well done! Good find.
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The Giants had 12 men on the field for a play during the Patriots final drive. A 5 yard penalty for a play that burned 6-7 seconds is a great trade off if you're defending the lead. Essentially if they are already on the edge of hail mary range you're stalling to make sure they only get one crack at the end zone.
I thought of that the other night watching the game. It's not a bad move. As far as I can tell, the only downside is the penalty would negate a turnover.
The too-many-men rule was in fact changed shortly afterwards in response to this tactic.
For a number of years now, if you have 12 or more defenders lined up to play, the officials are supposed to throw the flag before the snap, so that no time comes off the clock.
If the extra defender is trying to run off the field, the flag will not be thrown and the offense can choose to get a free play.
There was a national night game this year where there were 12 defenders lined up and the flag was thrown an instant before the snap.
The play went off, gained good yardage, and many people didn't understand why the offense didn't decline the penalty.
The offense couldn't because there was no play.
So, no, you're not onto something.
Obviously the play has to be successful, where did I say it doesn’t need to be?
The point is it’s a lot easier to get a first down when your o-line takles all the d-lineman.
If you want to argue that this would be too difficult/impossible to implement in real life that’s fair, but don’t misconstrue what I’m suggesting…
I know the rules of football
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In comment 15574310 emcca005 said:
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The Giants had 12 men on the field for a play during the Patriots final drive. A 5 yard penalty for a play that burned 6-7 seconds is a great trade off if you're defending the lead. Essentially if they are already on the edge of hail mary range you're stalling to make sure they only get one crack at the end zone.
I thought of that the other night watching the game. It's not a bad move. As far as I can tell, the only downside is the penalty would negate a turnover.
The too-many-men rule was in fact changed shortly afterwards in response to this tactic.
For a number of years now, if you have 12 or more defenders lined up to play, the officials are supposed to throw the flag before the snap, so that no time comes off the clock.
If the extra defender is trying to run off the field, the flag will not be thrown and the offense can choose to get a free play.
There was a national night game this year where there were 12 defenders lined up and the flag was thrown an instant before the snap.
The play went off, gained good yardage, and many people didn't understand why the offense didn't decline the penalty.
The offense couldn't because there was no play.
Great point, and to the OP’s point, any time a rule manipulation comes in like that the league will address it very quickly
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The official rule states: A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock. The penalty for a violation is 15 yards. The game clock will also be reset to where it had been prior to the previous snap.
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Mike - great find.
I didn't first describe this situation, but did post multiple times on the Buff/KC thread on how it could be done.
Not so apparently, it's a penalty!
I guess Buff should have at least held one player - probably Kelce - to at least play the percentages.
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is a 15 yard penalty with a clock reset. The rule was added in 2017 to close exactly the loophole the OP describes.
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The official rule states: A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock. The penalty for a violation is 15 yards. The game clock will also be reset to where it had been prior to the previous snap.
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Mike - great find.
I didn't first describe this situation, but did post multiple times on the Buff/KC thread on how it could be done.
Not so apparently, it's a penalty!
I guess Buff should have at least held one player - probably Kelce - to at least play the percentages.
I like the hold idea because it's not necessarily flagrant, and it's only 5 yards.
There's gotta be a way to 99.9% win a game with 13 seconds on the clock for an offense to go 40 yards for field goal range, even if God is QB and you have a 32nd ranked defense.
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The official rule states: A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock. The penalty for a violation is 15 yards. The game clock will also be reset to where it had been prior to the previous snap.
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This is interesting - it only covers multiple fouls.
If you are the Chiefs, why not hold the crap out of Tyreek, roll double coverage onto Kelce? Make someone else beat you, or drain the clock.
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but having the OL hold is ridiculous, as the defensive team can just decline it if the play isn't successful.
So, no, you're not onto something.
Obviously the play has to be successful, where did I say it doesn’t need to be?
The point is it’s a lot easier to get a first down when your o-line takles all the d-lineman.
If you want to argue that this would be too difficult/impossible to implement in real life that’s fair, but don’t misconstrue what I’m suggesting…
I know the rules of football
If the play is successful, the defense accepts the penalty and negates the results.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. I don't see a way that the play goes off correctly and the defending team declines the penalty to let it happen.
Best case scenario is that you replay the down ten yards further back than before.
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In comment 15574654 Section331 said:
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but having the OL hold is ridiculous, as the defensive team can just decline it if the play isn't successful.
So, no, you're not onto something.
Obviously the play has to be successful, where did I say it doesn’t need to be?
The point is it’s a lot easier to get a first down when your o-line takles all the d-lineman.
If you want to argue that this would be too difficult/impossible to implement in real life that’s fair, but don’t misconstrue what I’m suggesting…
I know the rules of football
If the play is successful, the defense accepts the penalty and negates the results.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. I don't see a way that the play goes off correctly and the defending team declines the penalty to let it happen.
Best case scenario is that you replay the down ten yards further back than before.
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I’m suggesting that if the play is going south, this is a way of getting the yardage needed (along with the penalty), defending team accepts the penalty obviously and now you can either punt or kick an extra point (depending on the situation; as opposed to a turnover on downs or failed two point conversion
Especially when the PREVENT often prevents you from winning, since most teams do it poorly.
If, or since they made a first down, another 3 second hold, gets you to 7.
May change the dynamic of the playcalls and urgency of the remaining time.
An incompletion, in bounds tackle, or getting downfield a little slower or sitting on the player may kill and extra second, and now the clock and distance may again change the last play or two, if there’s time left.
Better would have been bounce the kick downfield, kill 1 second or possibly get a mishandle or a bad for KC bounce and kill 3+ seconds.