I was listening to Boomer & Gio this morning and Gio went off implying Daboll is only the ‘hot candidate’ because of Josh Allen (link below). On the other hand, have to imagine Daboll has had a hand in developing Allen.
I can’t recall off the top of my head, but was Daboll particularly impressive at any of his prior OC jobs:
Cleveland
Miami
Kansas City
Alabama
Any concerns of Daboll simply being a product of Josh Allen?
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Daboll- Not so fast - ( New Window )
Personally, I want Flores a proven coach who’s done wonders with poor QB play and got a defense playing very well.
At Miami, he was about 13th lowest points. The three combined years at Cleveland and KC, he was top 4 in lowest points per game. He did have some mediocre QBs there.
I am more focused on his ability to motivate, delegate, strategize, manage different personality types, deal with pressure and make smart decisions and adjustments. He also needs to do this authentically and develop his own voice otherwise he will flame out like Mangini, Judge or Patricia who all tried too hard to mimic BB.
It seems like he knows how to connect with players and is a bright offensive mind. Does he possess the other skill sets?
hey Bruce.
And to add to that point, like any senior position, you want to see a track record of growth.
Gio argues his point loudly and passionately, but never acknowledges that Coach Daboll was in his early- and mid-30s at those prior stops. They were each one NFL stints where the entire coaching staff was fired. Why didn't Reid keep Daboll? Because Reid is his own OC.
Any team who hires Daboll would be hoping at age 46, he's ready to be a Reid-like leader with the schematic acumen to design a great offense coupled with the connections to delegate a strong coaching staff (Daboll has now 20+ years of experience in the NFL). This is what would separate him from McAdoo, for example, who was probably too green for the head job.
Say this for Daboll. Unlike most NE guys, he has had success outside of the Belichick sphere.
The one-year stop in Alabama clearly helped him evolve as a coach. Many of the college concepts he used with Hurts & Tua -- they won the National Championship btw -- accompanied Daboll to Buffalo and have been integral in unlocking Josh Allen's demigod ceiling.
Now, is it fair to wonder if Daboll's ascendency as a hot head coaching candidate is a product of Allen's superior talent? Sure. Absolutely. That offense sure seems to benefit from some Josh A. off-script hero ball. Then again, Daboll has been there with Allen since the beginning and would surely deserve credit for developing the player. This was a raw QB prospect in many ways. Like many great players, one cannot assume their success was predestined. Infrastructure and coaching matter.
If anyone wants to form an independent opinion on Daboll's tactics, watch some games. Go to twitter and search 'Daboll' and see some breakdowns from Cosell, Orlovsky, Baldy, etc. to learn where the coaching has been creating edges for the Buffalo offense and it's quarterback. Or even just look for comments Allen himself (along with other Bills players) have made about Daboll's influence and his readiness for a head coaching opportunity.
It's fair debate. And he won't be bringing Josh Allen with him. But there are a lot of positive indicators for his candidacy if any doubters choose to look deeper than the flawed premise "he can't succeed without a phenomenal QB"
This is actually the easiest to explain. Andy Reid runs the Andy Reid offense. Daboll has been an adaptable coordinator, but he never really ran a west coast offense.
Daboll has done nice job of scheming and giving Allen chance to explode.
My concern, is how this fits into Daboll taking over an entire operation across all levels. How will he oversee and manage defensive staff, special teams. How will he be involved in managing player/roster evaluations and delegations to front office?
There's a lot they will want to know and you have to ask a person (how will you approach so and so, what would you change, how would you go about change, where do you see NFL offenses evolving, how should injuries be evaluated or managed, etc.) and on and on and on.
CLE - Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy at QB
MIA - Matt Moore
KC - Matt Cassel and Brady Quinn Pt 2
BUFF - Tyrod Taylor, Josh Allen
Outside of Allen, hardly a murderer's row of QB's, and BUFF was a 10th ranked O with Tyrod Taylor.
I know many are concerned that he isn't an especially innovative play caller, but which teams are? SF, LAR, KC, NO, anyone else? TB won a SB with a Don Coryell-style attack, that is hardly ground-breaking. GB doesn't do anything especially innovative, except win (reg season) games. Dallas runs mostly the same stuff McCarthy ran in GB, which got him run out of GB.
If he can call a solid game, have a good run/pass mix, that's enough for me. I'm more interested in if he can develop younger players. Can he bring in position coaches who can maximize players' skillsets?
His QB's in there Matt Cassell, Matt Moore, Colt McCoy, Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn. And most of those were ten plus years ago.
I also agree with Les's post about all the other factors that will be as important if not more so if he become the HC. I would add talent evaluation and staff selection/development will play a huge role as well.
Come on, that was all Josh Allen!
Again, that was with Josh Allen. He had 3 previous years with bad QBs that were top 4 in points scored. Bad QBs=bad results and good QBs=good results.
By your logic, Josh McDaniels should do a bangup job considering some of the results they've had.
There is nothing irrational about being concerned about how good he will be when: 1. He is becoming a head coach, rather than an OC, a job title he has never held anywhere; and 2. He is coming to a team that doesn't have a Josh Allen, and has a poor OL.
It's fully rational to wonder if a better option may be a guy like a Flores, who has two winning seasons with below average QB play and a horrendous OL.
After three straight failures of head coaches, I don't know how any Giant fan couldn't have reservations about anyone chosen.
Minor concern there.
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and the level of concern trolling on BBI about an OC that scored 7 straight TDs against Bill Belicheck, the all world defensive mastermind and GOAT HC, is absolutely hilarious. Never change BBI.
Again, that was with Josh Allen. He had 3 previous years with bad QBs that were top 4 in points scored. Bad QBs=bad results and good QBs=good results.
By your logic, Josh McDaniels should do a bangup job considering some of the results they've had.
There is nothing irrational about being concerned about how good he will be when: 1. He is becoming a head coach, rather than an OC, a job title he has never held anywhere; and 2. He is coming to a team that doesn't have a Josh Allen, and has a poor OL.
It's fully rational to wonder if a better option may be a guy like a Flores, who has two winning seasons with below average QB play and a horrendous OL.
After three straight failures of head coaches, I don't know how any Giant fan couldn't have reservations about anyone chosen.
Please show me the list of HOF coaches with shitty QBs. I'll wait.
Don't any of you think it is funny how posters on BBI will create multiple excuses for Daniel Jones' shitty performances (bad OL, bad coaching, injuries, no weapons, conservative schemes, needs time, etc.), but then they also completely discount the value contributed by a good OC b/c the QB had a great season? Did Josh Allen show up in Buffalo in 2018 and dominate or was he developed into a good QB in the right system? You can't have it both ways.
I will reiterate my earlier statement that the level of concern trolling about Daboll is hilarious.
But if if a coordinator has a bad QB, the bad QB has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a bad coordinator
Got it
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In comment 15574385 kdog77 said:
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and the level of concern trolling on BBI about an OC that scored 7 straight TDs against Bill Belicheck, the all world defensive mastermind and GOAT HC, is absolutely hilarious. Never change BBI.
Again, that was with Josh Allen. He had 3 previous years with bad QBs that were top 4 in points scored. Bad QBs=bad results and good QBs=good results.
By your logic, Josh McDaniels should do a bangup job considering some of the results they've had.
There is nothing irrational about being concerned about how good he will be when: 1. He is becoming a head coach, rather than an OC, a job title he has never held anywhere; and 2. He is coming to a team that doesn't have a Josh Allen, and has a poor OL.
It's fully rational to wonder if a better option may be a guy like a Flores, who has two winning seasons with below average QB play and a horrendous OL.
After three straight failures of head coaches, I don't know how any Giant fan couldn't have reservations about anyone chosen.
Please show me the list of HOF coaches with shitty QBs. I'll wait.
Don't any of you think it is funny how posters on BBI will create multiple excuses for Daniel Jones' shitty performances (bad OL, bad coaching, injuries, no weapons, conservative schemes, needs time, etc.), but then they also completely discount the value contributed by a good OC b/c the QB had a great season? Did Josh Allen show up in Buffalo in 2018 and dominate or was he developed into a good QB in the right system? You can't have it both ways.
I will reiterate my earlier statement that the level of concern trolling about Daboll is hilarious.
Concern trolling? WTF are you talking about? Should I just automatically fellate whoever the Giants are hiring, or talking about hiring, just because the last 3 hires have turned out so successful?
Sure, Daboll gets some credit for developing Allen. But, by that same token, does he not get some blame for not developing those other QBs?
But if if a coordinator has a bad QB, the bad QB has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a bad coordinator
Got it
Who said that? All that means is that when he has bad QBs, his offenses do very poorly. When he has an MVP candidate as a QB, his offense performs quite well. That to me screams an OC whose offenses perform as expected based upon their talent.
By the same token, you have people here giving him credit for Allen becoming what he is, yet not giving him blame when the list of other QBs did not develop for him at Miami, Cleveland, or KC.
In reality, talent plays. When he didn't have talent, the offenses were among the worst in the league. When he had Josh Allen, the offense was among the best. If Schoen gets him a QB closer to Allen, or if Daboll develops Jones to be that guy, they'll be fine. But I have questions on whether either one of those will happen before he's on the chopping block as well, should he be hired.
Unless the QB is game planning and calling his own plays, it's ridiculous to think that their success has nothing to do with the OC.
Sure, I would hope he is a better OC now than 10 years ago. I have no issues if he is the guy. I like a lot of what I read about him as well. But I'm not so naive to say there are not some concerns, and that he is 100% the guy who will help turn the Giants around.
I don’t buy it. Like great players, great coaching is something you are born with and can’t be learned.
Unless the QB is game planning and calling his own plays, it's ridiculous to think that their success has nothing to do with the OC.
Who said Allen's success had nothing to do with the OC? And again, are we just going to give Daboll credit for Allen's success, but blame the long list of other QBs for their not developing with the great QB developer in Daboll?
Sure, Daboll gets some credit for developing Allen. But, by that same token, does he not get some blame for not developing those other QBs?
Daboll took over as Bills OC when Allen was a rookie and he improved every year: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm
Discounting Daboll's track record with the Bills b/c he was the OC for 3 bad teams featuring Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson, Matt Moore, Chad Henne, and Matt Cassel over 10 years ago is what I consider to be "concern trolling" b/c the biggest need the Giants have is an OC that can build an offensive philosophy that does not rely on consecutive QB sneaks and Nate Ebner's punt coverage skills to win games. And saying that good QBs make coaches look good is like saying "water is wet".
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In comment 15574463 kdog77 said:
Sure, Daboll gets some credit for developing Allen. But, by that same token, does he not get some blame for not developing those other QBs?
Daboll took over as Bills OC when Allen was a rookie and he improved every year: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm
Discounting Daboll's track record with the Bills b/c he was the OC for 3 bad teams featuring Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson, Matt Moore, Chad Henne, and Matt Cassel over 10 years ago is what I consider to be "concern trolling" b/c the biggest need the Giants have is an OC that can build an offensive philosophy that does not rely on consecutive QB sneaks and Nate Ebner's punt coverage skills to win games. And saying that good QBs make coaches look good is like saying "water is wet".
Pointing out that he had bad offenses with 3 bad teams is not discounting his track record with the Bills. It's called looking at his entire resume. The question was posed about whether there are any concerns about his career pre-Buffalo, and I have them. Who, but the biggest homer, wouldn't?
The Giants aren't exactly putting a great OL out there. There are legitimate concerns about Jones. If Daboll uses Jones to run as much as he runs Allen, Jones will likely be injured.
Whatever credit you give Josh Allen's natural talent and abilities vs. Daboll (and other coaches) in developing him, you have to at least give Josh Allen a good deal of that credit, no? Is Schoen going to be able to get the next Josh Allen, or a comparable level QB? That is easier said than done. We're talking about a top 5 QB easily, here.
You can have the attitude that Daboll is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Fine. If you do, I hope you're right. I hope he's the greatest coach the Giants have ever had if they hire him. But there are reasons to have some concern. And they are hardly trolling.
Also with the complete and utter mess that the Giants are, do you really want to turn over the management of this team to another hot OC candidate? Isn’t that just another MaCado or Shurmur move? Why not go with a guy who’s a proven HC like a : Flores, Quinn, Peterson (as unlikely as he is).
Also with the complete and utter mess that the Giants are, do you really want to turn over the management of this team to another hot OC candidate? Isn’t that just another MaCado or Shurmur move? Why not go with a guy who’s a proven HC like a : Flores, Quinn, Peterson (as unlikely as he is).
Really, you could just replace the name Daboll with McAdoo, and Josh Allen with Aaron Rodgers, and we could have this same discussion 6 years ago.
But, yeah, I'll accept the position that Daboll had a really good offense with Josh Allen, helped develop him, and was a good OC with the Bills, so that automatically means he will be a good head coach with the Giants. It's really that simple....
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In comment 15574509 KDavies said:
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In comment 15574463 Pointing out that he had bad offenses with 3 bad teams is not discounting his track record with the Bills. It's called looking at his entire resume. The question was posed about whether there are any concerns about his career pre-Buffalo, and I have them. Who, but the biggest homer, wouldn't?
The Giants aren't exactly putting a great OL out there. There are legitimate concerns about Jones. If Daboll uses Jones to run as much as he runs Allen, Jones will likely be injured.
Whatever credit you give Josh Allen's natural talent and abilities vs. Daboll (and other coaches) in developing him, you have to at least give Josh Allen a good deal of that credit, no? Is Schoen going to be able to get the next Josh Allen, or a comparable level QB? That is easier said than done. We're talking about a top 5 QB easily, here.
You can have the attitude that Daboll is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Fine. If you do, I hope you're right. I hope he's the greatest coach the Giants have ever had if they hire him. But there are reasons to have some concern. And they are hardly trolling.
I don't care what you think of Daboll, but pointing out what someone did or did not do over 10 years ago and saying it negates what they did for the past 4 years is myopic at best and yes "concern trolling" at worst. So we give credit for players getting better at their jobs year over year, but not coaches? Were Vince Lombardi, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh and Bill Belicheck born great coaches or did they learn how to be great? Progress counts more in my opinion.
Josh Allen had a shitty rookie year and now is one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL. I give him credit for his skills and developing accuracy, but more often than not coaches are blamed for shitty QB play and then get heavily discounted for great QB play. I would rather bet on a guy that developed a raw talent into top 5 QB than some retread who fired 4 OCs in 3 years or could not protect a 28-3 lead in the Super Bowl. That's just me, but hey to each his own.
Really, you could just replace the name Daboll with McAdoo, and Josh Allen with Aaron Rodgers, and we could have this same discussion 6 years ago.
But, yeah, I'll accept the position that Daboll had a really good offense with Josh Allen, helped develop him, and was a good OC with the Bills, so that automatically means he will be a good head coach with the Giants. It's really that simple....
Come on, McAdoo was the QB coach after Rodgers had already won an MVP. Daboll was the OC who took a mechanical mess of a QB and helped Allen develop into one of the best QB's in the game. No one deserves more credit for his development than Allen himself, but Daboll deserves some. At least Josh Allen thinks he does.
And there are questions with any coordinator who hasn't been a HC before. None of us know if he will succeed, but his track record is as good as any of the other coordinators out there. FTR, I want them to hire Flores.
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In comment 15574563 kdog77 said:
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In comment 15574509 KDavies said:
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In comment 15574463 Pointing out that he had bad offenses with 3 bad teams is not discounting his track record with the Bills. It's called looking at his entire resume. The question was posed about whether there are any concerns about his career pre-Buffalo, and I have them. Who, but the biggest homer, wouldn't?
The Giants aren't exactly putting a great OL out there. There are legitimate concerns about Jones. If Daboll uses Jones to run as much as he runs Allen, Jones will likely be injured.
Whatever credit you give Josh Allen's natural talent and abilities vs. Daboll (and other coaches) in developing him, you have to at least give Josh Allen a good deal of that credit, no? Is Schoen going to be able to get the next Josh Allen, or a comparable level QB? That is easier said than done. We're talking about a top 5 QB easily, here.
You can have the attitude that Daboll is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Fine. If you do, I hope you're right. I hope he's the greatest coach the Giants have ever had if they hire him. But there are reasons to have some concern. And they are hardly trolling.
I don't care what you think of Daboll, but pointing out what someone did or did not do over 10 years ago and saying it negates what they did for the past 4 years is myopic at best and yes "concern trolling" at worst. So we give credit for players getting better at their jobs year over year, but not coaches? Were Vince Lombardi, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh and Bill Belicheck born great coaches or did they learn how to be great? Progress counts more in my opinion.
Josh Allen had a shitty rookie year and now is one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL. I give him credit for his skills and developing accuracy, but more often than not coaches are blamed for shitty QB play and then get heavily discounted for great QB play. I would rather bet on a guy that developed a raw talent into top 5 QB than some retread who fired 4 OCs in 3 years or could not protect a 28-3 lead in the Super Bowl. That's just me, but hey to each his own.
I am not negating what he has done with Allen and the Bills. He deserves credit for that. But does he not deserve some responsibility for the failures in his career as well. Ignoring the rest of his career is not myopic?
I am not making any judgments on Daboll as to whether he will be a good coach or not. I am expressing what the concerns are. I agree their best bet at hitting a HR on the head coach is an offensive guy. That's the way the league has been trending for a while. The concern is the Giants don't get the Allen type (and surrounding pieces) and Daboll doesn't have the success he has had with Allen, without him. And obviously, there is a difference between being an OC and a head coach.
Nowhere did I say the Giants shouldn't hire him. He is surely one of the top candidates on their list. But I think it's naive to express that there are no concerns about him.
Gotta give credit to teams like the Raiders, who go outside the box and hire someone like Gruden,even though it didn't work out.It's still better than selecting a head coach who was a special teams guru.Or a coach with 1 good year as a coordinator.Or a former head coach one year removed from getting fired,now all of a sudden he's one of the best available.Or a head coach who just got canned after back to back winning seasons.
That crosses the line into fear based thinking.
You hire based on what you think is the best fit. You need a QB, whether it's Jones or someone else. You need someone who can figure out the QB. Everything else will fall in line after that.
HC candidate's downfall (Tua).
2) Coaches can evolve/improve/adapt, right? Is it impossible to imagine that Daboll has figured out how to implement his scheme in a way that is effective and works for his personnel?
3) If you put the same questionable CV out there about Spags, who has overseen some of the worst defenses in NFL history, you'd still have a large portion of Giants fans needing to change their pants out of excitement.
Complaints that his play calling was awful. Oline was struggling and he didn't have any answers.
Fast-forward 8 weeks later and this guy is the clear front runner for our HC job. The same guy who orchestrated a bottom 5 offense in 3 of his 4 years as an OC in Miami, Cleveland, and KC.
Daboll is not some genius. He is not McVay, Shannahan etc. He is not going to turn a bunch of average players into a top 10 offense. Daboll will do a good job if he has great talent like he does in Buffalo. However, Giants don't have anywhere near the talent level that the Bills do...have a feeling we'll be calling for this guys head in 3 years or less.
But, valid or not I want an offensive guy.