Yes or no.
Whether you hate him or not, he never failed a drug test. Of course he was doing something, I'm not blind...the dude was twice the size that he was in Pittsburgh....he is an asshole to the media and they hate him.
David Ortiz fails drug test....is great with the media and they love him.
Ortiz will get in and Bonds won't. For me, I think that's a joke.
I say yes. Bonds belongs in the HOF.
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There's an enormous amount of material presented in the Hall of Fame beyond the plaques for the Hall of Famers. Whether it's Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, or anyone else, the Hall's ability to tell the history of the game doesn't depend on those individuals being elected as Hall of Famers.
It is called the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. The Hall of Fame is just a room with the plaques on the wall. The museum tells the history of baseball with exhibits ranging from Little League to international baseball to the evolution of gloves. I remember seeing one of Lindsey Nelson's jackets there.
People rarely talk about PEDs vs. dangerous PEDs. High dose anabolic steroids damage the heart, liver, kidneys and whatever else. Players had to choose between harming themselves or not keeping up with the users. Players taking low dose HGH, testo, or amphetamines is fine to me.
But since he's a nice dude, he gets in?
To channel Will Ferrell in 'Zoolander'...I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!'
[quote] In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15575010
Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.
This can go on forever. [/quote
Not True, Ruth played in Barnstorming exhibitions west of Mipi, It was quite common in that period to make extra $$$ that way during that time, Especially during the depression
But since he's a nice dude, he gets in?
To channel Will Ferrell in 'Zoolander'...I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!'
He was involved in a gangland shooting. He was either the target or a friend of the target--depending on whose story you believe.
[quote] In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15575010
Here is a story about Ruth Playing games west of Mississpi.
Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.
This can go on forever. [/quote
Not True, Ruth played in Barnstorming exhibitions west of Mipi, It was quite common in that period to make extra $$$ that way during that time, Especially during the depression
Link - ( New Window )
It’s not cheating if there isn’t a rule against.
The players and owners make the rules and play by them. Bonds taking steroids in 2001 isn’t any more cheating than a guy leaning over the plate into a fastball. It’s probably dangerous, not something you should encourage kids to do, but a risk you take that’s within the rules.
Fay Vincent could have sent out a memo claiming every team was required to sign an elephant.
The only way to change the rules was an agreement between the players and owners. After he retired Vincent agreed.
No one who took steroids before 2005 broke a rule or cheated.
Let’s at least be honest about the facts.
"Major league players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use or any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to the discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game," the memo read.
"This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drugs does not have a prescription."
Vincent’s view on his memo:
Manfred could declare every player has to bring him a hot dog today or be suspended, and that would have the same authority as Vincent’s memo.
The players and the owners set the rules.
Fay Vincent didn’t like it, but he was crystal clear afterward that he understood it.
2) There's no punishment for violating the rule
3) The person making the rule has no authority to implement it
The players knew they were cheating and doing something federally illegal
They were told in 1991 not to do it, but because they could get away with it they did it. That's cheating
I can't really remember the last time I was INTO baseball passionately ... 2011 the latest?
For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...
I like David Ortiz, I really like Barry Bonds, I don't like A-Rod at all, I dislike Roger Clemens with a passion (read from all that, I'm a Mets fan)...
But all of them should be Hall of Famers considering their peers who took the same drugs are already in.
I still trust that someday, the hypocrisy will be settled. Looks like December this year may be the time once people who recognize the inequity are allowed to weigh in..
The real reason he's not in is that he's a prick who treated the media like shit and now they have an excuse to keep him out. Len Berman (he thinks Bonds should be in) told a story this morning that Bonds once told a producer he sent to interview him that he would "slit his throat" if he put the mike near him again.
Not so sure Clemens makes it without the juice. He was declining his last 3 years in Boston and had a horrible first half in TOR before juicing.
Baseball, after is nothing more than an agreement between the players and the owners.
There was no list of banned substances prior to 2004. Many of the substances on the current list were commercially and medically available then and now.
The owners and the players collectively established a set of rules governing conduct from 2005 forward. Players who violate that are cheating.
Fay Vincent’s silly memo, according to his own words, was a personal plea to the players and owners. They were not interested.
It’s comical to punish a player for a rule they did not break, because it didn’t exist.
Why is David fucking Ortiz in the Hall of Fame but Dick Allen isn't?
EXACTLY
The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name.
It's because this was "David Arias":
And this was "David Ortiz":
AGREED!!
Why is David fucking Ortiz in the Hall of Fame but Dick Allen isn't?
totally agree on Dick Allen. That guy could hit the rock. And he could play the field too.
I think if Clemens were judged on pre TOR career only, I'd put him in Mattingly category: Tremendous years but not enough of them.
We all watched, we all enjoyed it, and we all knew the players were doing something to extend their careers and enhance their performance.
The sanctimony is so silly. There were literally no rules on banned substances before 2005.
It’s like keeping guys out of the NFL HOF for blows to the head in 90s, because it was mean and dangerous and there was a rule against after.
I’m a Yankees fan to my bones, and if you want to punish A-Rod for popping a test in 2012, go for it. He broke the rules.
But the fans, the owners, the players, and writers all rode Bonds’s success in different ways. It’s pathetic to keep him out now.
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For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...
The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name.
It's because this was "David Arias":
And this was "David Ortiz":
Yeah they are the same person.. I don't get your point...
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In comment 15575259 moze1021 said:
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For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...
The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name.
It's because this was "David Arias":
And this was "David Ortiz":
Yeah they are the same person.. I don't get your point...
Don’t be cute…you know exactly what his point is. The difference in his size/physique from Arias to Ortiz is pretty dramatic. As were also his power numbers. And coincidentally along with his move to Boston with other known PED users. Oh, and he failed a drug test.
Get the point now?
I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time.
But I can play the game...
A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging?
A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique:
Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...
I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time.
But I can play the game...
A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging?
A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique:
Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...
No DH has ever been a first ballot HOF before, and some much better players with a PED-stain have been kept out, and we're supposed to just be fine with this fraud being the one that opens the door for other PED players?
Spare me.
I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time.
But I can play the game...
A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging?
A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique:
Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...
The example of Pettitte is a poor one, as he allegedly only used briefly while rehabbing his knee. So, there was going to be dramatic changes from short term use.
He chose the path that he took and if it costs him a bust and a chance at recognition along with others that have been voted in. Oh well. Life's about making choices and living with them.
If it was that important to people like Bonds and Clemens and Palmiero then perhaps they could have been a little less sanctimonious in their post careers. Perhaps they may have gathered enough extra votes to squeeze them in.
That being said, this is the Writer's HOF. And I hold the writers accountable for their piece in this debacle. They were certainly benefiting from all the stories they were writing about Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire etc etc. And while they wrote in some small fashion about steroids and PEDs etc, especially AFTER the fact... they wrote to a far greater extent about the great home run chases etc while they were going on and didn't pursue to great extent these "villains" as they were supposedly committing these crimes against baseball.
How many times did you watch these writers pose the question to the active player as they received their awards and accolades? 'Barry, congrats on hitting 70 dingers. It's been alleged that your head has grown 3 1/2 hat sized in the past 5 seasons. Is it worth it to hit 70 homeruns knowing that myself and a good number of my fellow writers will never vote you into the Hall of Fame for this? Are you cool with that?'
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If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too..
I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time.
But I can play the game...
A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging?
A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique:
Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...
moze - it's not just physique. The thing most people point to with Bonds, above all else, is the size of his head.
The example of Pettitte is a poor one, as he allegedly only used briefly while rehabbing his knee. So, there was going to be dramatic changes from short term use.
Allegedly...that's all you need to say.
We have no idea. He could have used his entire career.
So if we are now talking about head size...Ortiz already had a big head.. so I guess he passes that test?? Lol
The whole thing of trying to use physical changes or appearance or performance spikes to draw conclusions is faulty logic and prone to subjective conclusions...
What if Piazza started using PEDs in 1989 after being drafted by his godfather as a favor in the 62nd round. We don't know..we'll never know.
These guys are in the HOF and without a shadow of a doubt they used Steroids:
Ivan Rodriguez
Jeff Bagwell
David Ortiz
There are several other HOFers who are likely to have used steroids too. But those three make a mockery of keeping the rest of the steroid guys out.
.