NFT: Does Barry Bonds belong in the HOF?

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Especially if Ortiz gets in.

Nuff said.

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Because for me he was a HOF before he had a giant balloon head and put on about 70 pounds from horse shots.

he’s the best player I’ve ever seen since I started watching baseball in the early 90s. He was a shoe in before the roids too.

We know when he started juicing, and he was a slam dunk, first ballot HOF'er before that.

He was arguably a HOFer before doing steroids.

of course. Figuring out everyone who was and who wasn't using is an impossible task. Guaranteed there are players in/who will be in that used steroids.

Hitters were facing pitchers on steroids. Pitchers were pitching to hitters on steroids.

Bud Selig gets in, while presiding over the steroid era. Managers like Joe Torre are getting in the HOF, while benefitting from plenty of players who used steroids.

do Clemens and A-Rod. No doubt they all belong.

KDavies you nailed it...there are certainly many users and cheaters of other forms in the HOF and more who will be voted in.

absolutely.

Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass?

Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something.

Should he be forgotten in history?

Asterisk him up but he’s absolutely deserving of being in. Pete Rose, Roger, ARod. Yes

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In comment 15574627 bw in dc said:

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Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something.

How do you know Griffey "did it the right way"?

They should have been in years ago. The hall of fame voting process needs a major overhaul because what they’ve been doing is a total joke.

a resounding YES!

However, there's already guys in the HOF that roided. At this point,might as well let all the cheaters in.

Easy question.

Barry Bonds was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer before he touched steroids.

Bonds did what he did. A Hall of Fame plaque won't enhance his achievements, the lack of one won't diminish them. It's just a way for baseball to honor its own. If baseball, as an institution, chooses to honor him, his career won't be any better for it. If they don't, it won't be any worse. Same for Pete Rose, Roger Clemens and Shoeless Joe Jackson.

Bill James observed a long time ago that the HoF really can't do much to honor these guys who put up obviously HoF numbers; it can only insult them by delaying their induction, or by giving them a lesser vote than some other guy. That's the case with Bonds, Clemens and Rose. By numbers, they obviously belong. The baseball HoF makes other considerations part of the choice. So I guess they're insulted.

My opinion of any of them won't be changed by whether they get in or not. I happen to not be on their side, but they did what they did, we saw what we saw. Halls of fame don't get me worked up. Eli will get into Canton,or he won't. He did what he did, we saw what we saw. Clemens and Bonds will get into Cooperstown or they won't. Ortiz will get in or he won't. Whatever. The HoF is a nice place to visit, regardless of who's on the wall.

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He was a three time MVP before he ever did roids. If he had retired after the '98 season, before the cream and the clear, he would have waltzed into the Hall.

None of the cheaters get in, including Ortiz. Bonds didnt have to do it, but he did and now he has to pay the price

I say over and over that the HOF simply needs to create a section about the steriod era and tell the story of the cheaters

I’d bet over half the HRs Bonds hit were off pitchers on roids.

Pudge is already in, and if you think he was clean you should go return the email from Nigeria about that inheritance you’re due.

The quality getting in now pales in comparison to what he did.
The best hitter and pitcher of my lifetime not getting in. I thing Clemens belongs also

If you want an asterisk, you should asterisk that whole era instead of just one player.

one of the greatest of all time.

1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. AROD
4. Ortiz

The merits of their HOF candidacies are probably in that order. Bonds and Clemens probably had HOF careers before they even touched PEDs;. Yet, Ortiz gets in and the other three won't. If this does not strike at the legitimacy of the HOF, I really do no know what does. The Hall of Fame is a joke and the writers are a bunch of frauds and phonies. They all get in or none get in. So, any person who votes for Ortiz but not Bonds, Clemens, or Arod, should never vote again.

and it should break loose

This is a disgrace

In comment 15574674 mfsd said:

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I’d bet over half the HRs Bonds hit were off pitchers on roids. Pudge is already in, and if you think he was clean you should go return the email from Nigeria about that inheritance you’re due.

I agree that Rodriguez shouldnt be in (Pudge is Carlton Fisk, I refuse to call anyone else that. Like LT is Taylor not Tomlinson)

Bagwell shouldnt be in either

How can you tell MLB history without Bonds? And is Selig in? If so, that's a joke, seeing how he turned a blind eye to the whole era.

Personally, I don't care if those guys juiced.

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Only if Cooperstown builds a wing for performance enhancing drug users.

They should be in but it must be clear that they cheated and benefited from steroids.

Bonds may have been the greatest position player that I have seen play, but he chose to systematically cheat at the expense of others.
He did not need to do this, but he did. Bad choices have consequences.

In comment 15574645 moze1021 said:

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In comment 15574627 bw in dc said: Quote: Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something. How do you know Griffey "did it the right way"?

I don't know with 100% certainty. But his career arc - with the injuries and decline in production - tracks to a typical MLB career.

On the other hand, I know with 100% certainty that Bonds used PEDs. So I don't like rewarding that behavior.

In comment 15574687 Essex said:

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1. Bonds 2. Clemens 3. AROD 4. Ortiz The merits of their HOF candidacies are probably in that order. Bonds and Clemens probably had HOF careers before they even touched PEDs;. Yet, Ortiz gets in and the other three won't. If this does not strike at the legitimacy of the HOF, I really do no know what does. The Hall of Fame is a joke and the writers are a bunch of frauds and phonies. They all get in or none get in. So, any person who votes for Ortiz but not Bonds, Clemens, or Arod, should never vote again.

I've yet to hear a principled case for letting Ortiz in and not the other 3. We all know what's going on; the media loves Ortiz and the Red Sox. It's pretty disgraceful.

unfair advantage,
yes he was great hitter early in his career but he screwed up.

Ask Yogi Berra, Ted Williams and Ty Cobb what they think.

Baseball has a strong and powerful history in this country.

The records, the people who played, coached, and walked the straight and narrow.

Think C. Matheson and Lou Gerig.


IMO, keep out all juicers, and keep out Pete Rose while we are at it.

In comment 15574722 mpinmaine said:

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unfair advantage, yes he was great hitter early in his career but he screwed up. Ask Yogi Berra, Ted Williams and Ty Cobb what they think. Baseball has a strong and powerful history in this country. The records, the people who played, coached, and walked the straight and narrow. Think C. Matheson and Lou Gerig. IMO, keep out all juicers, and keep out Pete Rose while we are at it.

I hope you don't fall off your high horse.

In comment 15574706 Archer said:

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Only if Cooperstown builds a wing for performance enhancing drug users. They should be in but it must be clear that they cheated and benefited from steroids. Bonds may have been the greatest position player that I have seen play, but he chose to systematically cheat at the expense of others. He did not need to do this, but he did. Bad choices have consequences.

What about Ortiz? What are the consequences of his cheating, first ballot enshrinement?

Let 'em all in.

In comment 15574693 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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How can you tell MLB history without Bonds?

There's an enormous amount of material presented in the Hall of Fame beyond the plaques for the Hall of Famers. Whether it's Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, or anyone else, the Hall's ability to tell the history of the game doesn't depend on those individuals being elected as Hall of Famers.

.... then why even have a Hall of Fame?

but this is one where I can see it both ways, and am not really sure which side I come down on. On one hand, of course he would have been in without the roids; and why should the BBWA be the ultimate moral authority on this issue?

OTOH, is it really fair to the other players of that era who didn't cheat to let him in? or to all the HOF members who didn't cheat? Letting in Bonds arguably cheapens their admission to the HOF.

Cheater.

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but this year is a Today's Game election year, so this December both he and Clemens (and Schilling) will be eligible to be voted in by that committee. So we can look forward to this discussion next year.

in all of this. They had no problem making money hand over fist during the peak of the McGwire-Sosa HR chase, and were perfectly content turning a blind eye to what was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Only when public opinion turned against players using steroids after Canseco’s book did MLB muster up all the sanctimony they could about protecting the integrity of the game, gave us that bullshit Mitchell report that only covered a few teams, and declared the case closed

People also misunderstand the history of PEDs in baseball. Former pitcher Tom House came out and said he and many players were using steroids back in the 60s. There were some obvious steroid guys in the 80s, Brian Downing, Pete Incaviglia, not to mention McGwire and Canseco in their early bash brothers days of the late 80s.

Adjudicating the steroid era based on the few sacrificial lambs that either got caught or outed is hypocritical. By all accounts the number of players who got caught is a small percentage of those who used PEDs for part of all of their careers

Should he get in too?

Bonds deserves it on his non-steroid merits but the steroid achievements go on display with everything else.

I don't care much about baseball though and it doesn't seem to bother real fans so whatever.

In comment 15574627 bw in dc said:

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Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something.

For all we know, it’s only that Griffey was better at cheating. Should that be the determinative factor for the HOF? HOF voters wanted to keep Piazza out because he had back acne. Do I think Piazza used? Probably, but that is how we get to the point of inducting those smart enough not to get caught.

Although I will add that it probably doesn’t help Bonds’s cause that he was so abjectly blatant about it. His head made him look like a Thanksgiving parade float.

Over the entrance door. Or the bathroom.

players of all time. Defense, hitting, stealing bases, homeruns, average, walks, on base %, OPS, etc.

What good is a Hall of Fame if you leave out a top 5 player of all time. Even if you want to say well he roided... Ok so have a ton of players and not one of them even came close to what this man did. Off roids he was an easy HoFer first ballot. On roids he the greatest player to ever play.

It is a shame he won't get in, but this is what happens when you let people with biases, agendas, and past history make selections. The Baseball HoF is probably the biggest joke with the way they do selections.

Papi, and Papi alone.

Named on the mitchell report but it’s ignore because the writers liked him. Amazing

So should arod and Clemens. Asinine to keep them out.

And to keep schilling out when he never cheated the game, never committed a crime, or did anything illegal is a shame as well.

In comment 15574786 Mad Mike said:

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Papi, and Papi alone.

This is why Baseball HoF is a joke.

close down the hall of fame.

How do you keep guys who were better players than Ortiz out of the HOF but put him in?

The hall of fame with 1 vote became a total farce

He and Roger Clemens should be in the Hall especially if PED Ortiz is

In comment 15574786 Mad Mike said:

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Papi, and Papi alone.

What a joke.

In comment 15574762 Section331 said:

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In comment 15574627 bw in dc said: Quote: Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something. For all we know, it’s only that Griffey was better at cheating. Should that be the determinative factor for the HOF? HOF voters wanted to keep Piazza out because he had back acne. Do I think Piazza used? Probably, but that is how we get to the point of inducting those smart enough not to get caught. Although I will add that it probably doesn’t help Bonds’s cause that he was so abjectly blatant about it. His head made him look like a Thanksgiving parade float.

I forget where I read it - maybe SI? - but apparently one off-season Bonds was at Griffey's house in Florida and expressed his anger at guys like McGuire and Sosa getting more attention than him. He thought he was the better player - which he was - and seemed to suggest he was going to do something about it...

the 'no steroids' standard is not a universal standard in MLB. It is only applied to a few guys on the Yankees, Bonds, Sosa and MacGuire.
That is bullshit.
And if MLB didnt want guys using steroids and shattering records, then they had plenty of years to pretend to give a shit. That ship has sailed, and they cannot unring that bell. Bonds didnt disrespect Ruth and Aaron- Selig and the owners did.
The best way to hold these owners who 'ruined' the history books accountable is to celebrate the steroid guys along with everyone else.

There is no good argument for holding some guys out and letting some guys off the hook, and no universal standard that can be applied. Forget Griffey. Do we know guys like Jeter didn't use steroids? Do steroids only matter if someone hits 50HR in a season? Can you skate by with up to 49?
At least a guy like Arod came clean. At least a guy like Pettitte came clean. Did they come clean? Are they still hiding something, but only getting out in front of the story as a PR tactic? At least a guy like Bonds or MacGuire has nothing to hide, bc it's obvious. Letting Papi and the GriffeyJrs in only rewards subterfuge.

And letting Bonds in along with Griffey and Papi gives people license to celebrate all the records in context, or to dismiss the whole era as they see fit. Holding some guys out and letting some guys in without an universally applied standard forces fans to accept the moral judgment of the BBWA scumbags and depraved owners.

As a baseball fan who loved watching Griffey and can reluctantly appreciate the infuriatingly Eli-like villain status of Arias, this is the only solution for me.

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So ridiculous. If Ortiz didn’t do PEDs, no one did PEDs.

Best player of my lifetime.

and Bonds and Clemens not according to reports. Have not heard of any others in...

In comment 15574812 section125 said:

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and Bonds and Clemens not according to reports. Have not heard of any others in...

Stupid and gross.

failed a steroid test.

Something Barry Bonds never did. Something Mike Piazza never did.

How do you keep other guys out for steroids and put Ortiz in? Every voter who hasn't voted for Clemens, ARod, Bonds and Piazza but voted for Ortiz should immediately lose their vote.

Ortiz was the posterboy of a guy who was going to be out of baseball without steroids. Changed his name, started injecting himself, and went from a guy who was non-tendered as a Twin to destroying baseballs as a Red Sox player.

That writers were making a point and that they would vote Bonds and Clemens in on their last year..

What a shame..a travesty...

We reward being better at hiding cheating...and Bonds/Clemens don't get in because they were the best on the field and had biggest targets on their backs.

you can't get all the cheaters out of the HOF, then this just doesn't make sense.

what a total and utter farce. Something needs to be done these sports writers are absolute clowns.

Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Manny and Sheffield are all better players than Ortiz and deserve to be in the HOF.

If Selig is in out all the steroid users in.

The guy was incredible. Everyone knows he did steroids. He’s served his time. Let him in

trying to defend this will at least be amusing, I guess? I'm done with the HOF, don't care about it any more. Complete joke.

Unbelievable. What a joke.

In comment 15574792 Tuckrule said:

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Named on the mitchell report but it’s ignore because the writers liked him. Amazing

He is not named in the Mitchell Report.

In comment 15574816 Mook80 said:

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failed a steroid test. Something Barry Bonds never did.

Bonds tested positive in the same 2003 testing Ortiz did. (I mean, it's never been made public, but they're both on the leaked list of 103 positives).

Even before steroids, Bonds was 5 times the player Ortiz was. Clemens and Manny were both better players than Ortiz and they are from the same franchise.

He didn't even need to cheat. He could've gotten in just based on his early career.

However, you cheat, no. Get lost.

Clemens, Sosa, ARod too. All of them.

Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever.

All the other guys are HOF’ers even with out it. Meanwhile big papi turned into a different player. IMO this isn’t being discussed enough

On 1 hand you had execs turning a blind eye. "Because chicks dig the longball". $$$ Now McGwire/Sosa was moneyball.
Also the purists will say you had Bond"s Pitt. doubles turned into SF HR's. Imo, they should go because juicing was part of that era, like it or not.
As an aside, never did understand McGwire's juicing. He hit 49 jacks as a long lean rookie.

In comment 15574861 bw in dc said:

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Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever.

Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in.

I mean, they punished Mike Piazza because of bacne and because somehow being a 62nd round draft pick was a black mark on his achievements? What it boils down to is that the BWA are just not intelligent people and they revel in this little piece of power they have. The baseball HOF voting process makes zero sense when voters use it to make a name for themself or to punish deserved players for personal grudges. Ethics and integrity went out the window long ago.

It will never change. MLB will never force a change either. At this point, they get way more publicity with those guys being snubbed each year than if they were eventually let in.

50 years ago you depended on them to cover players 2000 miles away that you’ll hardly ever see on tv. You read about them in the paper, now I can watch Mike trout on my phone live while on a red eye to LA. The writers don’t matter nearly as much as they need us to think they are

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In comment 15574793 GNewGiants said:

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So should arod and Clemens. Asinine to keep them out. And to keep schilling out when he never cheated the game, never committed a crime, or did anything illegal is a shame as well.

Schilling not in because of his politics and relationship with the media. It’s pretty ridiculous.

A side note. I now think Andruw jones should be in the hall. He’s the best defensive outfielder ever.

I don't care anymore lol

In comment 15574872 Amtoft said:

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In comment 15574861 bw in dc said: Quote: Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever. Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in.

That’s not the reason why he’s in - he’s got the numbers to back it up. But yes, it certainly helps.

As someone above said - the real crime is Kent. He’s an asshole of the biggest order, but he’s one of the best offensive 2nd baseman ever (and he wasn’t awful on defense, either), nary a whisper about PED’s, etc. - his vote total is ridiculous

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In comment 15574932 speedywheels said:

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In comment 15574872 Amtoft said: Quote: In comment 15574861 bw in dc said: Quote: Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever. Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in. That’s not the reason why he’s in - he’s got the numbers to back it up. But yes, it certainly helps. As someone above said - the real crime is Kent. He’s an asshole of the biggest order, but he’s one of the best offensive 2nd baseman ever (and he wasn’t awful on defense, either), nary a whisper about PED’s, etc. - his vote total is ridiculous

I wouldn't bet $1 on Jeff Kent having played his entire career without using PEDs..

But then again, I wouldn't take that bet on any player after learning that Andy Pettitte was a user.

In comment 15574856 islander1 said:

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He didn't even need to cheat. He could've gotten in just based on his early career. However, you cheat, no. Get lost. Clemens, Sosa, ARod too. All of them.

Do you mean: you get caught, you don't deserve it?

In comment 15574762 Section331 said:

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In comment 15574627 bw in dc said: Quote: Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something. For all we know, it’s only that Griffey was better at cheating. Should that be the determinative factor for the HOF? HOF voters wanted to keep Piazza out because he had back acne. Do I think Piazza used? Probably, but that is how we get to the point of inducting those smart enough not to get caught. Although I will add that it probably doesn’t help Bonds’s cause that he was so abjectly blatant about it. His head made him look like a Thanksgiving parade float.

There really is no other logical take than this...

Also, the only reason anyone ever cared about Bonds head size or body transformation is because he was the best and breaking records.

No one gives a crap that Todd Hundley looked like a WWE wrestler.

There really is nothing more that needs to be said on that.

It is an absolute travesty that he is not in because of alleged PED use. I say alleged because he never failed a test and never admitted anything. I am not stupid. We "know" he used. But, we actually know Ortiz used. He failed a test. And, given the supposed timeline of his usage, he doesn't sniff the HOF without them, unlike Bonds, who was already a HOF player without ever taking a thing.

This is a joke. I never waivered as a fan through work stoppages or any scandals. This is the first time I have considered no longer being a fan. I won't commit to that because I know I love baseball too much. But, I find this love affair with Ortiz disgusting.

In comment 15574872 Amtoft said:

Quote:

In comment 15574861 bw in dc said: Quote: Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever. Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in.

The HoF is full of those types of human beings.

In comment 15574605 Producer said:

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Nuff said.

Arguably the greatest PLAYER of all time. You can make that argument for a handful of guys, but he is one of them.

In comment 15574945 moze1021 said:

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In comment 15574932 speedywheels said: Quote: In comment 15574872 Amtoft said: Quote: In comment 15574861 bw in dc said: Quote: Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever. Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in. That’s not the reason why he’s in - he’s got the numbers to back it up. But yes, it certainly helps. As someone above said - the real crime is Kent. He’s an asshole of the biggest order, but he’s one of the best offensive 2nd baseman ever (and he wasn’t awful on defense, either), nary a whisper about PED’s, etc. - his vote total is ridiculous I wouldn't bet $1 on Jeff Kent having played his entire career without using PEDs.. But then again, I wouldn't take that bet on any player after learning that Andy Pettitte was a user.

I wouldn’t bet either. But again, not one whisper about use for him.

His biggest crime was being a dick. He should be garnering much more attention on the ballot than he is.

But back to the OP - bonds, Clemens and schilling will all get in in December, so this will all be moot.

In comment 15574672 Greg from LI said:

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He was a three time MVP before he ever did roids. If he had retired after the '98 season, before the cream and the clear, he would have waltzed into the Hall.

Exactly. I don't say give him a complete pass. But, withholding him is a joke. His usage, if nothing else, proved what a joke PEDs are. I really don't even blame him. He used, allegedly, out of vanity and jealousy that 2 far inferior players in McGwire and Sosa got so much attention and acclaim for their assault on the HR record while using. He used to prove a point and proved it.

In comment 15574953 Matt M. said:

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There really is nothing more that needs to be said on that. It is an absolute travesty that he is not in because of alleged PED use. I say alleged because he never failed a test and never admitted anything. I am not stupid. We "know" he used. But, we actually know Ortiz used. He failed a test. And, given the supposed timeline of his usage, he doesn't sniff the HOF without them, unlike Bonds, who was already a HOF player without ever taking a thing. This is a joke. I never waivered as a fan through work stoppages or any scandals. This is the first time I have considered no longer being a fan. I won't commit to that because I know I love baseball too much. But, I find this love affair with Ortiz disgusting.

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We don’t know what he failed the test for. To your point, we “know” most/all used.

But yes, it’s BS he got in when bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc didn’t.

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Rodriguez and Bagwell as guys who roided and still got in

It was right to keep the others out, and Ortiz should have been kept out as well

In comment 15574627 bw in dc said:

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Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something.

There is only 1 player in the last 25 years that I would be shocked to find out used. When I say that, most people think I'm talking about Jeter. Nope. Mariano Rivera. He is the only player I am almost certain never used a thing and it would crush me to find out otherwise.

I don't think Griffey used. But, I'm not that confident.

Now, Bonds, as I said, seemed to use out of vanity. He was not just a HOF player before using , but was on pace for over 600 HR and possible the best player in the game. People forget how many SBs and GG he had, besides the 3 MVPs in the 90s. He proved just how good he was by using. While the rest of the league hit 40-50 HRs with no effort, he left them in his wake.

Clemens is a bit tougher because the rumors of use go back to the Blue Jays. He was on the HOF path, but if he retired right before going to the Jays, would he have made the HOF, the way Bonds would have if he retired by circa 1998? I'm not positive. Even still, he was the best pitcher of his generation.

A-Rod is the dangerous one. The rumors of the start of use are all over the place from Texas to Seattle to HS. His entire career, potentially, could be questioned. Personally, I would still vote him in, but wouldn't care as much if he doesn't get in. That might change with today's results. Ortiz being in before any of these 3 guys is an absolute joke.

as well. Ortiz isn't in the same stratosphere in terms of talent as these other guys.

In comment 15574798 Mook80 said:

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close down the hall of fame. How do you keep guys who were better players than Ortiz out of the HOF but put him in? The hall of fame with 1 vote became a total farce

Not just better, but significantly better.

In comment 15574969 Snablats said:

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Rodriguez and Bagwell as guys who roided and still got in It was right to keep the others out, and Ortiz should have been kept out as well

Undoubtedly more than just those 2.

I WOULD bet money that the majority of these guys were users at some point:

Biggio, Smoltz, Piazza, Raines, Thome, Hoffman, Chipper, Vlad, Edgar Martinez

And we aren't even considering that PEDs have been around baseball back into the 60s in varying forms...

In comment 15574816 Mook80 said:

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failed a steroid test. Something Barry Bonds never did. Something Mike Piazza never did. How do you keep other guys out for steroids and put Ortiz in? Every voter who hasn't voted for Clemens, ARod, Bonds and Piazza but voted for Ortiz should immediately lose their vote. Ortiz was the posterboy of a guy who was going to be out of baseball without steroids. Changed his name, started injecting himself, and went from a guy who was non-tendered as a Twin to destroying baseballs as a Red Sox player.

+1. Piazza had to wait a few years because of backne, but ORtiz failed a test and is in first try. Plus, Piazza was possibly the best offensive catcher of all time, certainly of his generation. Ortiz was not the best anything of his generation or otherwise and had a markedly mediocre career before using any PEDs.

In comment 15574856 islander1 said:

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He didn't even need to cheat. He could've gotten in just based on his early career. However, you cheat, no. Get lost. Clemens, Sosa, ARod too. All of them.

So, then no Ortiz. By voting in Ortiz, that argument no longer holds any water.

And I sure do miss those days of baseball it was way more fun to watch then this analytics game we see today

In comment 15574870 OC2.0 said:

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On 1 hand you had execs turning a blind eye. "Because chicks dig the longball". $$$ Now McGwire/Sosa was moneyball. Also the purists will say you had Bond"s Pitt. doubles turned into SF HR's. Imo, they should go because juicing was part of that era, like it or not. As an aside, never did understand McGwire's juicing. He hit 49 jacks as a long lean rookie.

McGwire used because his career was just about over. He couldn't stay healthy and couldn't hit. He added more than a few years to his career and seriously padded his numbers in doing so.

All the points about the insanity of big sloppy making and the others not are spot on. Also for those asking what Yogi Berra and Ted Williams would say, sure ask them but while you're at it ask them what they thought about their contemporaries like Mickey Mantle partying all night then showing up the next day all ready to play a day game loaded up with enough uppers from"Dr Feel good" to stimulate a horse...

In comment 15574955 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15574872 Amtoft said: Quote: In comment 15574861 bw in dc said: Quote: Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever. Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in. The HoF is full of those types of human beings.

Yeah but honestly the voters have changed... the power has gone to their head. You're a dick to me... you don't get my vote.

In comment 15574953 Matt M. said:

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It is an absolute travesty that he is not in because of alleged PED use. I say alleged because he never failed a test and never admitted anything. I am not stupid. We "know" he used. But, we actually know Ortiz used. He failed a test.

They both failed that test.

Obviously juiced. Enormous douche bag. He’ll fit right in.

We all knew this in real time. MLB and the players union encouraged and tolerated steroids. It was all good for business. He’s part of that story and it should be told in Cooperstown. But the HoF should tell the whole story and the truth. Steroids were something everyone knew about and very few cared about or had the integrity to speak against. MLB should have some sort of truth and reconciliation commission. A lot of people were impacted - encouraged to juice - or punished for not juicing. It’s all a stain on MLB and the players union.

And the fact that David Arias got in today ahead of Bonds (and A-Rod, and Clemens) is a fucking embarrassment.

Arias owes his entire career to steroids.

Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.

In comment 15574974 Matt M. said:

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In comment 15574627 bw in dc said: Quote: Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass? Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something. There is only 1 player in the last 25 years that I would be shocked to find out used. When I say that, most people think I'm talking about Jeter. Nope. Mariano Rivera. He is the only player I am almost certain never used a thing and it would crush me to find out otherwise. I don't think Griffey used. But, I'm not that confident. Now, Bonds, as I said, seemed to use out of vanity. He was not just a HOF player before using , but was on pace for over 600 HR and possible the best player in the game. People forget how many SBs and GG he had, besides the 3 MVPs in the 90s. He proved just how good he was by using. While the rest of the league hit 40-50 HRs with no effort, he left them in his wake. Clemens is a bit tougher because the rumors of use go back to the Blue Jays. He was on the HOF path, but if he retired right before going to the Jays, would he have made the HOF, the way Bonds would have if he retired by circa 1998? I'm not positive. Even still, he was the best pitcher of his generation. A-Rod is the dangerous one. The rumors of the start of use are all over the place from Texas to Seattle to HS. His entire career, potentially, could be questioned. Personally, I would still vote him in, but wouldn't care as much if he doesn't get in. That might change with today's results. Ortiz being in before any of these 3 guys is an absolute joke.

I doubt Griffey used, his career seems to have followed a normal trajectory and he was done by his early-mid 30s.

In comment 15575010 MartyNJ1969 said:

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Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.

Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.

In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15575010 MartyNJ1969 said: Quote: Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron. Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.

Cheating was invented in the 90s.

he put up HOF numbers even before steroids.

David Ortiz has a lower bWAR than Will Clark, Keith Hernandez and John Olerud.

Had a reported positive PED test.

Besides the fact of allowing him but not other steroid abusers in there is the actual baseball itself. And if he's in there are other first basemen that deserve to be in too.

In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15575010 MartyNJ1969 said: Quote: Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron. Amphetamines of the 1960-70's can;t even compare to PED's. That's really a non starter for a comparison. not glorifying those days but players were better and keep in mind the mound was higher and it was tougher to hit home runs as a result..so yeah, the past players were better. BB had the advantage of lower mound and access to PED's Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.

In comment 15575074 moespree said:

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David Ortiz has a lower bWAR than Will Clark, Keith Hernandez and John Olerud. Had a reported positive PED test. Besides the fact of allowing him but not other steroid abusers in there is the actual baseball itself. And if he's in there are other first basemen that deserve to be in too.

Agree. Fuck him and the RSN.

In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15575010 MartyNJ1969 said: Quote: Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron. Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.

Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.

This can go on forever.

The Hall of Fame is to preserve the history and the legacy of the game by enshrining its best players and most memorable moments. In an era where steroid use was rampant, they STILL stood out above the crowd and are part of the lore of the sport. Put them in.

In comment 15574932 speedywheels said:

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In comment 15574872 Amtoft said: Quote: In comment 15574861 bw in dc said: Quote: Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever. Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in. That’s not the reason why he’s in - he’s got the numbers to back it up. But yes, it certainly helps. As someone above said - the real crime is Kent. He’s an asshole of the biggest order, but he’s one of the best offensive 2nd baseman ever (and he wasn’t awful on defense, either), nary a whisper about PED’s, etc. - his vote total is ridiculous

David Arias never played in the field and was a forgettable non-tender nobody until he started using.

In comment 15575112 FStubbs said:

Quote:

In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 15575010 MartyNJ1969 said: Quote: Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron. Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs. Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River. This can go on forever.

Oh, I didn't mean for that to read as though I intended to put GHR on a pedestal. I'm just saying that every era had their own thing. But generally, the playing field (no pun intended) has been level for each era.

Now we have David Arias getting into the HOF ahead of BARRY BONDS? And ahead of A-Rod? And Clemens? And McGwire?

They were all users. Why is Arias getting in first when he was the least talented of all of them?

In comment 15575116 BigBlueBuff said:

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The Hall of Fame is to preserve the history and the legacy of the game by enshrining its best players and most memorable moments. In an era where steroid use was rampant, they STILL stood out above the crowd and are part of the lore of the sport. Put them in.

That's the crux of the argument. If Bonds was roided up like Hulk Hogan, and hit 73 home runs against a pitcher who was roided up like Hulk Hogan, it's effectively even.

In comment 15574735 Mad Mike said:

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In comment 15574693 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: There's an enormous amount of material presented in the Hall of Fame beyond the plaques for the Hall of Famers. Whether it's Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, or anyone else, the Hall's ability to tell the history of the game doesn't depend on those individuals being elected as Hall of Famers.

It is called the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. The Hall of Fame is just a room with the plaques on the wall. The museum tells the history of baseball with exhibits ranging from Little League to international baseball to the evolution of gloves. I remember seeing one of Lindsey Nelson's jackets there.

People rarely talk about PEDs vs. dangerous PEDs. High dose anabolic steroids damage the heart, liver, kidneys and whatever else. Players had to choose between harming themselves or not keeping up with the users. Players taking low dose HGH, testo, or amphetamines is fine to me.

.

I don't even follow baseball that much, but Ortiz tested positive for PED.

But since he's a nice dude, he gets in?

To channel Will Ferrell in 'Zoolander'...I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!'

In comment 15575112 FStubbs said:
[quote] In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15575010


Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.


Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.



Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.

This can go on forever. [/quote


Not True, Ruth played in Barnstorming exhibitions west of Mipi, It was quite common in that period to make extra $$$ that way during that time, Especially during the depression

In comment 15575173 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I don't even follow baseball that much, but Ortiz tested positive for PED. But since he's a nice dude, he gets in? To channel Will Ferrell in 'Zoolander'...I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!'

He was involved in a gangland shooting. He was either the target or a friend of the target--depending on whose story you believe.

In comment 15575182 MartyNJ1969 said:

Quote:

In comment 15575112 FStubbs said: [quote] In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 15575010 Here is a story about Ruth Playing games west of Mississpi. Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron. Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs. Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River. This can go on forever. [/quote Not True, Ruth played in Barnstorming exhibitions west of Mipi, It was quite common in that period to make extra $$$ that way during that time, Especially during the depression

Link - ( New Window )

Cheating is a pretty silly claim when there wasn’t a real policy against it until 2005. And there wasn’t a real policy against HGH until 2011.

It’s not cheating if there isn’t a rule against.

The players and owners make the rules and play by them. Bonds taking steroids in 2001 isn’t any more cheating than a guy leaning over the plate into a fastball. It’s probably dangerous, not something you should encourage kids to do, but a risk you take that’s within the rules.

saying PEDs are against baseball policy

With all the cheaters.

In comment 15575194 Snablats said:

Quote:

saying PEDs are against baseball policy

Fay Vincent could have sent out a memo claiming every team was required to sign an elephant.

The only way to change the rules was an agreement between the players and owners. After he retired Vincent agreed.

No one who took steroids before 2005 broke a rule or cheated.

Let’s at least be honest about the facts.

Here is part of that memo:

"Major league players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use or any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to the discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game," the memo read.

"This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drugs does not have a prescription."

Again, Fay Vincent could say whatever he wanted in any memo.

Vincent’s view on his memo:

Quote:

The letter was ignored because it didn’t affect the players. They were thoroughly protected by collective bargaining. But I wanted to make a moral statement to them and legal one to everyone else. The union told them to ignore it. The only way a change could be made was through collective bargaining. The union argued that testing violated players’ civil liberties. The union had strong, bright lawyers who concocted a bulletproof legal argument.

You cannot say they didnt know or that there wasnt a rule against it. So they knew they were breaking the rules against PEDs. And Vincent said they tried to bargain it into the CBA but the players refused. The players knew they were breaking the rules and the law

There was literally no rule against it. Vincent had no authority to unilaterally declare a rule. He knew it, the players knew it, and the owners knew it.

Manfred could declare every player has to bring him a hot dog today or be suspended, and that would have the same authority as Vincent’s memo.

The players and the owners set the rules.

Fay Vincent didn’t like it, but he was crystal clear afterward that he understood it.

*

1) There's no enforcement of the rule
2) There's no punishment for violating the rule
3) The person making the rule has no authority to implement it

And against federal law. And the fact that the players union refused to allow any enforceable rule against it tells you again they knew it was against what baseball wanted to do

The players knew they were cheating and doing something federally illegal

They were told in 1991 not to do it, but because they could get away with it they did it. That's cheating

I say bring back the juicing. It made baseball fun. Lol.

I can't really remember the last time I was INTO baseball passionately ... 2011 the latest?

Then Bonds, Clemens, ARod all deserve the honor too.

using their personal dislike for David Ortiz as part of an "argument", it dilutes the conversation.

For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...

I like David Ortiz, I really like Barry Bonds, I don't like A-Rod at all, I dislike Roger Clemens with a passion (read from all that, I'm a Mets fan)...

But all of them should be Hall of Famers considering their peers who took the same drugs are already in.

I still trust that someday, the hypocrisy will be settled. Looks like December this year may be the time once people who recognize the inequity are allowed to weigh in..

Bonds was a 4 time MVP with 400 HRS and 400 SBs and a TREMENDOUS OFer BEFORE any of the other stuff. I get why he did it. Sosa and McGwire couldnt hold his jock and were being lauded. IT was ego.

The real reason he's not in is that he's a prick who treated the media like shit and now they have an excuse to keep him out. Len Berman (he thinks Bonds should be in) told a story this morning that Bonds once told a producer he sent to interview him that he would "slit his throat" if he put the mike near him again.

Not so sure Clemens makes it without the juice. He was declining his last 3 years in Boston and had a horrible first half in TOR before juicing.

Anything in between is just old farts being ridiculous moral gatekeepers.

the game for years with the substances. At this point, who really cares?

The players get a say on the rules managing their bodies. That seems pretty fair to me.

Baseball, after is nothing more than an agreement between the players and the owners.

There was no list of banned substances prior to 2004. Many of the substances on the current list were commercially and medically available then and now.

The owners and the players collectively established a set of rules governing conduct from 2005 forward. Players who violate that are cheating.

Fay Vincent’s silly memo, according to his own words, was a personal plea to the players and owners. They were not interested.

It’s comical to punish a player for a rule they did not break, because it didn’t exist.

"Pete Rose has been banned from baseball because of betting... and now a word from Draft Kings"

He was a 3 time Cy winner in Boston, and his last season in Boston was actually rather good. Not like his dominant '80s seasons, but good. He wouldn't have had those insane seasons in Toronto but he likely would have had a gentle decline, continuing to be a solid pitcher for years to come.

Why is David fucking Ortiz in the Hall of Fame but Dick Allen isn't?

In comment 15575357 GMAN4LIFE said:

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"Pete Rose has been banned from baseball because of betting... and now a word from Draft Kings"

EXACTLY

In comment 15575259 moze1021 said:

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For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...

The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name.

It's because this was "David Arias":



And this was "David Ortiz":

In comment 15575357 GMAN4LIFE said:

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"Pete Rose has been banned from baseball because of betting... and now a word from Draft Kings"

AGREED!!

In comment 15575396 Greg from LI said:

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He was a 3 time Cy winner in Boston, and his last season in Boston was actually rather good. Not like his dominant '80s seasons, but good. He wouldn't have had those insane seasons in Toronto but he likely would have had a gentle decline, continuing to be a solid pitcher for years to come. Why is David fucking Ortiz in the Hall of Fame but Dick Allen isn't?

totally agree on Dick Allen. That guy could hit the rock. And he could play the field too.

I think if Clemens were judged on pre TOR career only, I'd put him in Mattingly category: Tremendous years but not enough of them.

They all do. Put the stars of my 20s in the hall. Almost all of them were cheating.

The owners and the players set the stage and the rules.

We all watched, we all enjoyed it, and we all knew the players were doing something to extend their careers and enhance their performance.

The sanctimony is so silly. There were literally no rules on banned substances before 2005.

It’s like keeping guys out of the NFL HOF for blows to the head in 90s, because it was mean and dangerous and there was a rule against after.

I’m a Yankees fan to my bones, and if you want to punish A-Rod for popping a test in 2012, go for it. He broke the rules.

But the fans, the owners, the players, and writers all rode Bonds’s success in different ways. It’s pathetic to keep him out now.

In comment 15575446 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15575259 moze1021 said: Quote: For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value... The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name. It's because this was "David Arias": And this was "David Ortiz":

Yeah they are the same person.. I don't get your point...

In comment 15575894 moze1021 said:

Quote:

In comment 15575446 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 15575259 moze1021 said: Quote: For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value... The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name. It's because this was "David Arias": And this was "David Ortiz": Yeah they are the same person.. I don't get your point...

Don’t be cute…you know exactly what his point is. The difference in his size/physique from Arias to Ortiz is pretty dramatic. As were also his power numbers. And coincidentally along with his move to Boston with other known PED users. Oh, and he failed a drug test.

Get the point now?

Fucking pathetic and ridiculous. Nothing but a scrub until he signed with the Red Sox. Then with the roids came the numbers. He absolutely does not belong in the HOF but, christ, at the very least, make this lying, disingenuous asshole wait until his 10th ballot like Edgar Martinez.

If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too..

I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time.

But I can play the game...

A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging?




A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique:






Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...

In comment 15576861 moze1021 said:

Quote:

If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too.. I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time. But I can play the game... A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging? A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique: Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...

No DH has ever been a first ballot HOF before, and some much better players with a PED-stain have been kept out, and we're supposed to just be fine with this fraud being the one that opens the door for other PED players?

Spare me.

In comment 15576861 moze1021 said:

Quote:

If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too.. I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time. But I can play the game... A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging? A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique: Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...

moze - it's not just physique. The thing most people point to with Bonds, above all else, is the size of his head.

The example of Pettitte is a poor one, as he allegedly only used briefly while rehabbing his knee. So, there was going to be dramatic changes from short term use.

or any, article about this, my first instinct is simply, "fuck Ortiz."

He has artifacts and references to his accomplishments already in the HOF Museum.

He chose the path that he took and if it costs him a bust and a chance at recognition along with others that have been voted in. Oh well. Life's about making choices and living with them.

If it was that important to people like Bonds and Clemens and Palmiero then perhaps they could have been a little less sanctimonious in their post careers. Perhaps they may have gathered enough extra votes to squeeze them in.

That being said, this is the Writer's HOF. And I hold the writers accountable for their piece in this debacle. They were certainly benefiting from all the stories they were writing about Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire etc etc. And while they wrote in some small fashion about steroids and PEDs etc, especially AFTER the fact... they wrote to a far greater extent about the great home run chases etc while they were going on and didn't pursue to great extent these "villains" as they were supposedly committing these crimes against baseball.

How many times did you watch these writers pose the question to the active player as they received their awards and accolades? 'Barry, congrats on hitting 70 dingers. It's been alleged that your head has grown 3 1/2 hat sized in the past 5 seasons. Is it worth it to hit 70 homeruns knowing that myself and a good number of my fellow writers will never vote you into the Hall of Fame for this? Are you cool with that?'

In comment 15577255 Matt M. said:

Quote:

In comment 15576861 moze1021 said: Quote: If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too.. I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time. But I can play the game... A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging? A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique: Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have... moze - it's not just physique. The thing most people point to with Bonds, above all else, is the size of his head. The example of Pettitte is a poor one, as he allegedly only used briefly while rehabbing his knee. So, there was going to be dramatic changes from short term use.

Allegedly...that's all you need to say.

We have no idea. He could have used his entire career.

So if we are now talking about head size...Ortiz already had a big head.. so I guess he passes that test?? Lol

The whole thing of trying to use physical changes or appearance or performance spikes to draw conclusions is faulty logic and prone to subjective conclusions...

What if Piazza started using PEDs in 1989 after being drafted by his godfather as a favor in the 62nd round. We don't know..we'll never know.

If you look at some of the pitchers busted for PEDs you would have never guessed it based on body size alone. Mejia and Mot were smaller wiry guys.

Mota not Mot.

a few times over the past 100+ years and will undoubtedly be again in the future. These guys were still great players nonetheless, and were a part of baseball's history.

keeping out some of the best players and inducting lesser players.

Of course Bonds & Clemens should be in. They were HOFers before they used PEDs. ARod and Manny should be in. There were as many pitchers using PEDs as hitters. History will record the Steroid era and who the steroid players were it's not secret. Pete Rose and Schilling should be in too. It's the MLB Hall of Fame. Not a court of law. We all know what and who Ty Cobb was off the field. History hasn't forgotten or white washed him. It will be the same with the steroid era.

These guys are in the HOF and without a shadow of a doubt they used Steroids:

Ivan Rodriguez

Jeff Bagwell

David Ortiz

There are several other HOFers who are likely to have used steroids too. But those three make a mockery of keeping the rest of the steroid guys out.

Yes, asshole baseball writers. The Halm of Fame .use have Bonds and lemens in it, orits the popularity hall of fame.

One, withut steroids, I'm not convinced Ortiz is a HOFer. On the field side, both Bonds and Clemens are. Two, anyone who voted for Ortiz loses the excuse of not voting for Bonds, Clemens, or anyone anyone else,because of PEDs. You can't have it both ways. Frankly, anyone in that category should lose their voting rights.




.

I’m not convinced David Ortiz even stays in the league. He was practically on his way out in Minnesota before he changed his name and started taking drugs. At least Bonds and Clemens were all stars and likely headed to the hall before the drugs.