Yes or no.
Whether you hate him or not, he never failed a drug test. Of course he was doing something, I'm not blind...the dude was twice the size that he was in Pittsburgh....he is an asshole to the media and they hate him.
David Ortiz fails drug test....is great with the media and they love him.
Ortiz will get in and Bonds won't. For me, I think that's a joke.
I say yes. Bonds belongs in the HOF.
It was right to keep the others out, and Ortiz should have been kept out as well
Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something.
I don't think Griffey used. But, I'm not that confident.
Now, Bonds, as I said, seemed to use out of vanity. He was not just a HOF player before using , but was on pace for over 600 HR and possible the best player in the game. People forget how many SBs and GG he had, besides the 3 MVPs in the 90s. He proved just how good he was by using. While the rest of the league hit 40-50 HRs with no effort, he left them in his wake.
Clemens is a bit tougher because the rumors of use go back to the Blue Jays. He was on the HOF path, but if he retired right before going to the Jays, would he have made the HOF, the way Bonds would have if he retired by circa 1998? I'm not positive. Even still, he was the best pitcher of his generation.
A-Rod is the dangerous one. The rumors of the start of use are all over the place from Texas to Seattle to HS. His entire career, potentially, could be questioned. Personally, I would still vote him in, but wouldn't care as much if he doesn't get in. That might change with today's results. Ortiz being in before any of these 3 guys is an absolute joke.
How do you keep guys who were better players than Ortiz out of the HOF but put him in?
The hall of fame with 1 vote became a total farce
It was right to keep the others out, and Ortiz should have been kept out as well
Undoubtedly more than just those 2.
I WOULD bet money that the majority of these guys were users at some point:
Biggio, Smoltz, Piazza, Raines, Thome, Hoffman, Chipper, Vlad, Edgar Martinez
And we aren't even considering that PEDs have been around baseball back into the 60s in varying forms...
Something Barry Bonds never did. Something Mike Piazza never did.
How do you keep other guys out for steroids and put Ortiz in? Every voter who hasn't voted for Clemens, ARod, Bonds and Piazza but voted for Ortiz should immediately lose their vote.
Ortiz was the posterboy of a guy who was going to be out of baseball without steroids. Changed his name, started injecting himself, and went from a guy who was non-tendered as a Twin to destroying baseballs as a Red Sox player.
However, you cheat, no. Get lost.
Clemens, Sosa, ARod too. All of them.
Also the purists will say you had Bond"s Pitt. doubles turned into SF HR's. Imo, they should go because juicing was part of that era, like it or not.
As an aside, never did understand McGwire's juicing. He hit 49 jacks as a long lean rookie.
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In comment 15574861 bw in dc said:
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Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever.
Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in.
The HoF is full of those types of human beings.
Yeah but honestly the voters have changed... the power has gone to their head. You're a dick to me... you don't get my vote.
They both failed that test.
We all knew this in real time. MLB and the players union encouraged and tolerated steroids. It was all good for business. He’s part of that story and it should be told in Cooperstown. But the HoF should tell the whole story and the truth. Steroids were something everyone knew about and very few cared about or had the integrity to speak against. MLB should have some sort of truth and reconciliation commission. A lot of people were impacted - encouraged to juice - or punished for not juicing. It’s all a stain on MLB and the players union.
Arias owes his entire career to steroids.
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Bonds didn't need the advantage. So why do it? And why give him a pass?
Kenny Griffey, Bonds's main peer, did it the right way and that should count for something.
There is only 1 player in the last 25 years that I would be shocked to find out used. When I say that, most people think I'm talking about Jeter. Nope. Mariano Rivera. He is the only player I am almost certain never used a thing and it would crush me to find out otherwise.
I don't think Griffey used. But, I'm not that confident.
Now, Bonds, as I said, seemed to use out of vanity. He was not just a HOF player before using , but was on pace for over 600 HR and possible the best player in the game. People forget how many SBs and GG he had, besides the 3 MVPs in the 90s. He proved just how good he was by using. While the rest of the league hit 40-50 HRs with no effort, he left them in his wake.
Clemens is a bit tougher because the rumors of use go back to the Blue Jays. He was on the HOF path, but if he retired right before going to the Jays, would he have made the HOF, the way Bonds would have if he retired by circa 1998? I'm not positive. Even still, he was the best pitcher of his generation.
A-Rod is the dangerous one. The rumors of the start of use are all over the place from Texas to Seattle to HS. His entire career, potentially, could be questioned. Personally, I would still vote him in, but wouldn't care as much if he doesn't get in. That might change with today's results. Ortiz being in before any of these 3 guys is an absolute joke.
I doubt Griffey used, his career seems to have followed a normal trajectory and he was done by his early-mid 30s.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
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Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Cheating was invented in the 90s.
Had a reported positive PED test.
Besides the fact of allowing him but not other steroid abusers in there is the actual baseball itself. And if he's in there are other first basemen that deserve to be in too.
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Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Amphetamines of the 1960-70's can;t even compare to PED's. That's really a non starter for a comparison. not glorifying those days but players were better and keep in mind the mound was higher and it was tougher to hit home runs as a result..so yeah, the past players were better. BB had the advantage of lower mound and access to PED's
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Had a reported positive PED test.
Besides the fact of allowing him but not other steroid abusers in there is the actual baseball itself. And if he's in there are other first basemen that deserve to be in too.
Agree. Fuck him and the RSN.
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Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.
This can go on forever.
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In comment 15574861 bw in dc said:
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Jeff Kent did to the writers to have such a great career just dismissed with such a low vote. He's one of the greatest offensive second baseman ever.
Jeff Kent is a dick... I mean even Barry Bonds is like damn bro you a dick. This is why the baseball HoF is a joke. You give the power to the people who interact with these players that develop biases both for and against. People like Ortiz is the only reason he is in.
That’s not the reason why he’s in - he’s got the numbers to back it up. But yes, it certainly helps.
As someone above said - the real crime is Kent. He’s an asshole of the biggest order, but he’s one of the best offensive 2nd baseman ever (and he wasn’t awful on defense, either), nary a whisper about PED’s, etc. - his vote total is ridiculous
David Arias never played in the field and was a forgettable non-tender nobody until he started using.
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In comment 15575010 MartyNJ1969 said:
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Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.
This can go on forever.
Oh, I didn't mean for that to read as though I intended to put GHR on a pedestal. I'm just saying that every era had their own thing. But generally, the playing field (no pun intended) has been level for each era.
Now we have David Arias getting into the HOF ahead of BARRY BONDS? And ahead of A-Rod? And Clemens? And McGwire?
They were all users. Why is Arias getting in first when he was the least talented of all of them?
That's the crux of the argument. If Bonds was roided up like Hulk Hogan, and hit 73 home runs against a pitcher who was roided up like Hulk Hogan, it's effectively even.
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There's an enormous amount of material presented in the Hall of Fame beyond the plaques for the Hall of Famers. Whether it's Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, or anyone else, the Hall's ability to tell the history of the game doesn't depend on those individuals being elected as Hall of Famers.
It is called the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. The Hall of Fame is just a room with the plaques on the wall. The museum tells the history of baseball with exhibits ranging from Little League to international baseball to the evolution of gloves. I remember seeing one of Lindsey Nelson's jackets there.
People rarely talk about PEDs vs. dangerous PEDs. High dose anabolic steroids damage the heart, liver, kidneys and whatever else. Players had to choose between harming themselves or not keeping up with the users. Players taking low dose HGH, testo, or amphetamines is fine to me.
But since he's a nice dude, he gets in?
To channel Will Ferrell in 'Zoolander'...I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!'
[quote] In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15575010
Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.
This can go on forever. [/quote
Not True, Ruth played in Barnstorming exhibitions west of Mipi, It was quite common in that period to make extra $$$ that way during that time, Especially during the depression
But since he's a nice dude, he gets in?
To channel Will Ferrell in 'Zoolander'...I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!'
He was involved in a gangland shooting. He was either the target or a friend of the target--depending on whose story you believe.
[quote] In comment 15575061 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15575010
Here is a story about Ruth Playing games west of Mississpi.
Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer. Same with Hank Aarron.
Hank Aaron might have had some amphetamines along the way. Let's not glorify that era as though those players didn't have their own version of PEDs.
Many of the best players were excluded from playing against Babe Ruth, and Ruth never had to play a game west of the Mississippi River.
This can go on forever. [/quote
Not True, Ruth played in Barnstorming exhibitions west of Mipi, It was quite common in that period to make extra $$$ that way during that time, Especially during the depression
Link - ( New Window )
It’s not cheating if there isn’t a rule against.
The players and owners make the rules and play by them. Bonds taking steroids in 2001 isn’t any more cheating than a guy leaning over the plate into a fastball. It’s probably dangerous, not something you should encourage kids to do, but a risk you take that’s within the rules.
Fay Vincent could have sent out a memo claiming every team was required to sign an elephant.
The only way to change the rules was an agreement between the players and owners. After he retired Vincent agreed.
No one who took steroids before 2005 broke a rule or cheated.
Let’s at least be honest about the facts.
"Major league players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use or any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to the discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game," the memo read.
"This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drugs does not have a prescription."
Vincent’s view on his memo:
Manfred could declare every player has to bring him a hot dog today or be suspended, and that would have the same authority as Vincent’s memo.
The players and the owners set the rules.
Fay Vincent didn’t like it, but he was crystal clear afterward that he understood it.
2) There's no punishment for violating the rule
3) The person making the rule has no authority to implement it
The players knew they were cheating and doing something federally illegal
They were told in 1991 not to do it, but because they could get away with it they did it. That's cheating
I can't really remember the last time I was INTO baseball passionately ... 2011 the latest?
For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...
I like David Ortiz, I really like Barry Bonds, I don't like A-Rod at all, I dislike Roger Clemens with a passion (read from all that, I'm a Mets fan)...
But all of them should be Hall of Famers considering their peers who took the same drugs are already in.
I still trust that someday, the hypocrisy will be settled. Looks like December this year may be the time once people who recognize the inequity are allowed to weigh in..
The real reason he's not in is that he's a prick who treated the media like shit and now they have an excuse to keep him out. Len Berman (he thinks Bonds should be in) told a story this morning that Bonds once told a producer he sent to interview him that he would "slit his throat" if he put the mike near him again.
Not so sure Clemens makes it without the juice. He was declining his last 3 years in Boston and had a horrible first half in TOR before juicing.