NFT: Does Barry Bonds belong in the HOF?

the game for years with the substances. At this point, who really cares?

The players get a say on the rules managing their bodies. That seems pretty fair to me.

Baseball, after is nothing more than an agreement between the players and the owners.

There was no list of banned substances prior to 2004. Many of the substances on the current list were commercially and medically available then and now.

The owners and the players collectively established a set of rules governing conduct from 2005 forward. Players who violate that are cheating.

Fay Vincent’s silly memo, according to his own words, was a personal plea to the players and owners. They were not interested.

It’s comical to punish a player for a rule they did not break, because it didn’t exist.

"Pete Rose has been banned from baseball because of betting... and now a word from Draft Kings"

He was a 3 time Cy winner in Boston, and his last season in Boston was actually rather good. Not like his dominant '80s seasons, but good. He wouldn't have had those insane seasons in Toronto but he likely would have had a gentle decline, continuing to be a solid pitcher for years to come.

Why is David fucking Ortiz in the Hall of Fame but Dick Allen isn't?

In comment 15575357 GMAN4LIFE said:

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"Pete Rose has been banned from baseball because of betting... and now a word from Draft Kings"

EXACTLY

In comment 15575259 moze1021 said:

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For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value...

The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name.

It's because this was "David Arias":



And this was "David Ortiz":

In comment 15575357 GMAN4LIFE said:

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"Pete Rose has been banned from baseball because of betting... and now a word from Draft Kings"

AGREED!!

In comment 15575396 Greg from LI said:

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He was a 3 time Cy winner in Boston, and his last season in Boston was actually rather good. Not like his dominant '80s seasons, but good. He wouldn't have had those insane seasons in Toronto but he likely would have had a gentle decline, continuing to be a solid pitcher for years to come. Why is David fucking Ortiz in the Hall of Fame but Dick Allen isn't?

totally agree on Dick Allen. That guy could hit the rock. And he could play the field too.

I think if Clemens were judged on pre TOR career only, I'd put him in Mattingly category: Tremendous years but not enough of them.

They all do. Put the stars of my 20s in the hall. Almost all of them were cheating.

The owners and the players set the stage and the rules.

We all watched, we all enjoyed it, and we all knew the players were doing something to extend their careers and enhance their performance.

The sanctimony is so silly. There were literally no rules on banned substances before 2005.

It’s like keeping guys out of the NFL HOF for blows to the head in 90s, because it was mean and dangerous and there was a rule against after.

I’m a Yankees fan to my bones, and if you want to punish A-Rod for popping a test in 2012, go for it. He broke the rules.

But the fans, the owners, the players, and writers all rode Bonds’s success in different ways. It’s pathetic to keep him out now.

In comment 15575446 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 15575259 moze1021 said: Quote: For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value... The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name. It's because this was "David Arias": And this was "David Ortiz":

Yeah they are the same person.. I don't get your point...

In comment 15575894 moze1021 said:

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In comment 15575446 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 15575259 moze1021 said: Quote: For example, using his mother's surname like there is something "wrong" with him correcting MLB on which they were using doesn't add any value... The reason why I use Arias when referring to David Ortiz isn't about him correcting MLB about his name. It's because this was "David Arias": And this was "David Ortiz": Yeah they are the same person.. I don't get your point...

Don’t be cute…you know exactly what his point is. The difference in his size/physique from Arias to Ortiz is pretty dramatic. As were also his power numbers. And coincidentally along with his move to Boston with other known PED users. Oh, and he failed a drug test.

Get the point now?

Fucking pathetic and ridiculous. Nothing but a scrub until he signed with the Red Sox. Then with the roids came the numbers. He absolutely does not belong in the HOF but, christ, at the very least, make this lying, disingenuous asshole wait until his 10th ballot like Edgar Martinez.

If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too..

I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time.

But I can play the game...

A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging?




A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique:






Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...

In comment 15576861 moze1021 said:

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If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too.. I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time. But I can play the game... A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging? A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique: Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...

No DH has ever been a first ballot HOF before, and some much better players with a PED-stain have been kept out, and we're supposed to just be fine with this fraud being the one that opens the door for other PED players?

Spare me.

In comment 15576861 moze1021 said:

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If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too.. I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time. But I can play the game... A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging? A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique: Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have...

moze - it's not just physique. The thing most people point to with Bonds, above all else, is the size of his head.

The example of Pettitte is a poor one, as he allegedly only used briefly while rehabbing his knee. So, there was going to be dramatic changes from short term use.

or any, article about this, my first instinct is simply, "fuck Ortiz."

He has artifacts and references to his accomplishments already in the HOF Museum.

He chose the path that he took and if it costs him a bust and a chance at recognition along with others that have been voted in. Oh well. Life's about making choices and living with them.

If it was that important to people like Bonds and Clemens and Palmiero then perhaps they could have been a little less sanctimonious in their post careers. Perhaps they may have gathered enough extra votes to squeeze them in.

That being said, this is the Writer's HOF. And I hold the writers accountable for their piece in this debacle. They were certainly benefiting from all the stories they were writing about Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire etc etc. And while they wrote in some small fashion about steroids and PEDs etc, especially AFTER the fact... they wrote to a far greater extent about the great home run chases etc while they were going on and didn't pursue to great extent these "villains" as they were supposedly committing these crimes against baseball.

How many times did you watch these writers pose the question to the active player as they received their awards and accolades? 'Barry, congrats on hitting 70 dingers. It's been alleged that your head has grown 3 1/2 hat sized in the past 5 seasons. Is it worth it to hit 70 homeruns knowing that myself and a good number of my fellow writers will never vote you into the Hall of Fame for this? Are you cool with that?'

In comment 15577255 Matt M. said:

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In comment 15576861 moze1021 said: Quote: If I show myself at 21 and 36 I'd look quite different too.. I think some of these guys were juicing their whole career including minor leagues.. especially my favorite player of all time. But I can play the game... A guy in the hall who may or may not have done PEDs..dramatic difference from PEDs or just aging? A known PED user, not in the hall.. no dramatic difference in physique: Point is the whole posting of before/after photos is nonsense. No one is debating he used PEDs. In fact most here are arguing that since he did, you have to no longer discriminate against anyone who may have... moze - it's not just physique. The thing most people point to with Bonds, above all else, is the size of his head. The example of Pettitte is a poor one, as he allegedly only used briefly while rehabbing his knee. So, there was going to be dramatic changes from short term use.

Allegedly...that's all you need to say.

We have no idea. He could have used his entire career.

So if we are now talking about head size...Ortiz already had a big head.. so I guess he passes that test?? Lol

The whole thing of trying to use physical changes or appearance or performance spikes to draw conclusions is faulty logic and prone to subjective conclusions...

What if Piazza started using PEDs in 1989 after being drafted by his godfather as a favor in the 62nd round. We don't know..we'll never know.

If you look at some of the pitchers busted for PEDs you would have never guessed it based on body size alone. Mejia and Mot were smaller wiry guys.

Mota not Mot.

a few times over the past 100+ years and will undoubtedly be again in the future. These guys were still great players nonetheless, and were a part of baseball's history.

keeping out some of the best players and inducting lesser players.

Of course Bonds & Clemens should be in. They were HOFers before they used PEDs. ARod and Manny should be in. There were as many pitchers using PEDs as hitters. History will record the Steroid era and who the steroid players were it's not secret. Pete Rose and Schilling should be in too. It's the MLB Hall of Fame. Not a court of law. We all know what and who Ty Cobb was off the field. History hasn't forgotten or white washed him. It will be the same with the steroid era.

These guys are in the HOF and without a shadow of a doubt they used Steroids:

Ivan Rodriguez

Jeff Bagwell

David Ortiz

There are several other HOFers who are likely to have used steroids too. But those three make a mockery of keeping the rest of the steroid guys out.

Yes, asshole baseball writers. The Halm of Fame .use have Bonds and lemens in it, orits the popularity hall of fame.

One, withut steroids, I'm not convinced Ortiz is a HOFer. On the field side, both Bonds and Clemens are. Two, anyone who voted for Ortiz loses the excuse of not voting for Bonds, Clemens, or anyone anyone else,because of PEDs. You can't have it both ways. Frankly, anyone in that category should lose their voting rights.




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I’m not convinced David Ortiz even stays in the league. He was practically on his way out in Minnesota before he changed his name and started taking drugs. At least Bonds and Clemens were all stars and likely headed to the hall before the drugs.