why the HC search was so small and limited to mostly guys he already knows?
There are so many potential HCing candidates out there and we interview Daboll, Frazier, Anarumo, Graham, Quinn, and Flores. Does anyone think that Frazier, Anarumo, and Graham have a chance? Graham is like Spags and the Giants are just doing him a courtesy. This is basically decided already with Daboll having his second interview before others have their first. I can't remember that ever happening in the NFL before especially with a coach with no job.
I do hope Flores makes this tough and there are disagreements in-house on who to hire. If it is Daboll, I hope he works out.
I just hate the approach to predetermining the person. Everyone looks back on Mara when he hired Reese and hired Gettleman. I don't see how this process is any different. Small list of guys you already know and never get out of your tight circle. Even if we don't hire these people, it is still a great opportunity to learn more about these people and how they view your team/organization.
Harbaugh (might not be interested), or are you referring to first timers only?
You're nor wrong but we also see statistics at how bad teams are at hiring HCs. We also can't run the way other teams run. When you limit your options you have no idea if your hiring methods are productive. If you don't interview people like Vrabel you'll never know how to adjust and learn from your practices.
Like I said, if Schoen trusts Daboll and wants to lean on him then he gets to make that choice. I just don't understand why anybody would limit who they can interview and learn from.
I've answered this before. Ryans, McDaniel, O'Connell, Pederson, etc. This is just off the top of my head. I would have also interviewed Leftwich too as I thought he did a great job last year with his offense midseason to help win the SB. His offense was a vertical one to introducing more horizontal concepts.
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HC and GM need to be on the same page. Outside of maybe Demeco Ryans, who have we not interviewed that we should have?
Harbaugh (might not be interested), or are you referring to first timers only?
Since Giants don’t need permission to speak with Harbaugh they probably have had conversations with his people about what he would want. Since Hortiz was reportedly close with him I am sure Giants investigated to see if it was worth moving Hortiz to next round. They likely were not getting the assurances they needed and that was why Hortiz wasn’t moved along and the other three were.
What is someone less familiar going to do in an interview to bump ahead of guys whose work you have valued for years?
I think you might be overvaluing what gets done in a interview
That said it s not easy getting the right guy, success is often determined by being in the right place at the right time, that s a success that does not always translate to the next step.
There needs to be some urgency here in getting a coach, Senior Bowl is next week, time to get things in motion.
Picking a head coach whose larger body of work you are familiar with, makes sense
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HC and GM need to be on the same page. Outside of maybe Demeco Ryans, who have we not interviewed that we should have?
I've answered this before. Ryans, McDaniel, O'Connell, Pederson, etc. This is just off the top of my head. I would have also interviewed Leftwich too as I thought he did a great job last year with his offense midseason to help win the SB. His offense was a vertical one to introducing more horizontal concepts.
Similar to Harbaugh, Pederson did not require permission and likely would have been a possibility if Poles had gotten the job. Perhaps his people told Giants no thank you. McDaniel and O’Connell are OC’s but neither call plays and I think that is a red flag for teams. Leftwich intrigued me, but his offense in Arizona under Wilks was bad and maybe they had concerns that it was Tom Brady making Leftwich look better. That being said it is something that could have been probed in an interview.
And having GM and HC on the same page is incredibly important. We haven't had that here in a LOOOOONG time. The fact that Daboll and Schoen have a good working relationship is important. The fact that the Giants are really looking into Flores to see if they can expect the same with him is also important.
Again, that is focusing on the hiring and not the interview process.
What is someone less familiar going to do in an interview to bump ahead of guys whose work you have valued for years?
I think you might be overvaluing what gets done in a interview
That said it s not easy getting the right guy, success is often determined by being in the right place at the right time, that s a success that does not always translate to the next step.
There needs to be some urgency here in getting a coach, Senior Bowl is next week, time to get things in motion.
Picking a head coach whose larger body of work you are familiar with, makes sense
I'll give you the senior bowl but getting your HC right trumps all of that. Also, with the urgency, the Niners coordinators could have been interviewed Sunday and would have slowed nothing down.
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HC and GM need to be on the same page. Outside of maybe Demeco Ryans, who have we not interviewed that we should have?
I've answered this before. Ryans, McDaniel, O'Connell, Pederson, etc. This is just off the top of my head. I would have also interviewed Leftwich too as I thought he did a great job last year with his offense midseason to help win the SB. His offense was a vertical one to introducing more horizontal concepts.
This are reasonable names to also consider. But maybe some of them were and the early feedback that came in wasn't all positive so they didn't get interviews?
I would have checked out Pederson though.
These are the coaches that schoen has targeted as guys he knows and has relationships with to varying degrees.
Are we not allowed to think, have options, and question? Or do we just have to trust blindly?
Link - ( New Window )
We applauded Mara for going outside his circle. My point is that Schoen is doing what the Mara's have done in the past that led us here. Again, I hope Daboll works out. I do. I just don't see the downside in going outside your circle to learn.
We're interviewing the top 3 available + a few more. The Anarumo interview was the only one that had me scratching my head, but I said that about Judge 2 years ago...
Maybe he has been hopeful that this combo could be possibility for a couple of years and here it is, waiting for his approval.
Maybe the BBI paranoia has some level of accuracy and he doesn't want the owner(s) to fall in love with a great interview from a guy that Schoen doesn't like.
That said, I agree that just the interviewing process could help him become a better interviewer...a better GM.
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And not how 99% of all coaching searches are done is wrong
Are we not allowed to think, have options, and question? Or do we just have to trust blindly? Link - ( New Window )
Since Schoen was hired, there is now a very sensitive and vocal set of posters who believe all of us should sit quietly and not question or comment on anything the team does. Everything must 'play out' and until everything has fully played out years from now, we should not speak of it.
Unfortunately you have put yourself on the list of conspiracy theorists who hate the team and everything they stand for.
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In comment 15575297 Ben in Tampa said:
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And not how 99% of all coaching searches are done is wrong
Are we not allowed to think, have options, and question? Or do we just have to trust blindly? Link - ( New Window )
Since Schoen was hired, there is now a very sensitive and vocal set of posters who believe all of us should sit quietly and not question or comment on anything the team does. Everything must 'play out' and until everything has fully played out years from now, we should not speak of it.
Unfortunately you have put yourself on the list of conspiracy theorists who hate the team and everything they stand for.
He was just hired a few days ago. Of course we have to wait a reasonable while to see how he plays out. Criticize based on friggin’ media stuff, the race to pist anything that synapses to be the first with a “story?”
The thing that concerns me now (right or wrong - but just the perception, I suppose) is that there is the guys Schoen wants to interview (Daboll, Frazier) and the guys Mara wants to interview (Flores, Quinn)... it seems fragmented to me. Just from the stories/leaks...
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Schoen to have autonomy to choose his candidate as opposed to feeling pressured to choose Mara’s preferred candidate.
+1
Schoen will choose his choice when he feels like it’s the time to choose his choice. I doubt he gives a shit what Mara and company thinks. He’ll listen to them as his employee, but that’s the absolute extent of it, imv..If he capitulates, then he should have stayed in Buffalo
There is a coaching search going on and people are closely following the beats. When they say "Flores is getting an interview Friday" we can discuss it, but when the beat says "the owner and coach may not prefer the same candidate" we should not discuss it?
I don't understand this desire to come on a message board and tell people what information they should and should not discuss.
This wait and see how it plays out approach...does it apply to the 2022 season? If so, should we not discuss it yet because it is all just conjecture? Or can we speculate on some topics and not others?
Unfortunately a decade of losing has not fostered a "trust the process and see how it goes" attitude in all fans. I don't understand why so many who do have that view are so terribly sensitive about it.
I know what I want, oh and btw Daboll fits the bill. Especially if he knows and trusts him and he knows they can work together. Its a part of this game.
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In comment 15575297 Ben in Tampa said:
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And not how 99% of all coaching searches are done is wrong
Are we not allowed to think, have options, and question? Or do we just have to trust blindly? Link - ( New Window )
Since Schoen was hired, there is now a very sensitive and vocal set of posters who believe all of us should sit quietly and not question or comment on anything the team does. Everything must 'play out' and until everything has fully played out years from now, we should not speak of it.
Unfortunately you have put yourself on the list of conspiracy theorists who hate the team and everything they stand for.
Ironically, just read a post in another thread lecturing others about throwing out too much silly insulting hyperbole.
In theory we would love an interview process that simply identifies the best person and puts them in that role, but that is really difficult to do.
If Schoen really wants Daboll then he should get to hire him. He is your GM because you trust he knows what he is doing. You can't hire him and then start overriding his first decisions.
There is a coaching search going on and people are closely following the beats. When they say "Flores is getting an interview Friday" we can discuss it, but when the beat says "the owner and coach may not prefer the same candidate" we should not discuss it?
I don't understand this desire to come on a message board and tell people what information they should and should not discuss.
This wait and see how it plays out approach...does it apply to the 2022 season? If so, should we not discuss it yet because it is all just conjecture? Or can we speculate on some topics and not others?
Unfortunately a decade of losing has not fostered a "trust the process and see how it goes" attitude in all fans. I don't understand why so many who do have that view are so terribly sensitive about it.
Mike, please stop with these lectures, ok? I never said what should or shouldn’t be discussed in this case. I’m saying that not everything is a behind the scenes conspiracy, that since “it’s the Maras” and company, that means that it has to automatically be pressure on Schoen.
Mara said publicly Schoen will conduct the HC search and he’s not going to renege on that and put himself in a corner..He’s allowed as an owner to opine. Schoen is NOT obligated to act on that. I doubt he ever would, imv..
Please, not every post by me and others is directed at
people not posting ad infinitum stuff..
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In comment 15575323 Les in TO said:
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Schoen to have autonomy to choose his candidate as opposed to feeling pressured to choose Mara’s preferred candidate.
+1
Schoen will choose his choice when he feels like it’s the time to choose his choice. I doubt he gives a shit what Mara and company thinks. He’ll listen to them as his employee, but that’s the absolute extent of it, imv..If he capitulates, then he should have stayed in Buffalo
The issue I have here is that many have the attitude, and understandably so, that they will believe that things have changed only when they see results. So if that's the case and results are all that matters -then there really isn't much to say until we have a sampling of actual results to judge now isn't there?
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So your idea of the topics we should be discussing are what?
There is a coaching search going on and people are closely following the beats. When they say "Flores is getting an interview Friday" we can discuss it, but when the beat says "the owner and coach may not prefer the same candidate" we should not discuss it?
I don't understand this desire to come on a message board and tell people what information they should and should not discuss.
This wait and see how it plays out approach...does it apply to the 2022 season? If so, should we not discuss it yet because it is all just conjecture? Or can we speculate on some topics and not others?
Unfortunately a decade of losing has not fostered a "trust the process and see how it goes" attitude in all fans. I don't understand why so many who do have that view are so terribly sensitive about it.
Mike, please stop with these lectures, ok? I never said what should or shouldn’t be discussed in this case. I’m saying that not everything is a behind the scenes conspiracy, that since “it’s the Maras” and company, that means that it has to automatically be pressure on Schoen.
Mara said publicly Schoen will conduct the HC search and he’s not going to renege on that and put himself in a corner..He’s allowed as an owner to opine. Schoen is NOT obligated to act on that. I doubt he ever would, imv..
Please, not every post by me and others is directed at
people not posting ad infinitum stuff..
I'll stop with the lectures when you stop being the thought police. Mara himself acknowledged he lost the trust of the fans.
For the life of me I will never understand the need to tell people to stop discussing a topic you can easily avoid.
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In comment 15575327 Matt M. said:
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In comment 15575323 Les in TO said:
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Schoen to have autonomy to choose his candidate as opposed to feeling pressured to choose Mara’s preferred candidate.
+1
Schoen will choose his choice when he feels like it’s the time to choose his choice. I doubt he gives a shit what Mara and company thinks. He’ll listen to them as his employee, but that’s the absolute extent of it, imv..If he capitulates, then he should have stayed in Buffalo
You don’t think he cares about what his boss, thinks? That’s not how the world works. I’d expect him to diplomatically press his case for his top choice in the spirit of “collaboration”, but you don’t just ignore your boss especially in your first week and when you are new to the role. Hopefully Mara aligns to Schoen’s pick to be true to his word about only vetoing a decision because of character/PR issues.
He cares to the extent that he’s an employee, so he will respectfully listen. But he also knows why he was brought here and that the heirarchy knows very little about coaching and player personnel..
He will act independently, Imv. I’m certain of it or else, as I’ve said, he doesn’t belong here as our GM
Mara desperately needed to get out of his circle for GM because 1) his circle sucked and 2) the GM and owner don't have to substantially collaborate on things.
I would add, if you've actually interviewed anybody, you don't get that much out of an interview. Actually working with someone is a million times more informative. That's why anybody massively weights a true account previous work experience if we can get it during a hiring process.
I'll say again- I don't know if Daboll is good. Nobody does. Schoen would have a lot more insight here, but even he doesn't know how he'd be as a HC. I don't know if Flores is a tremendous asshole or if the GM screwed him.
What we can say as fans is that the Giants talked to a set of reasonable candidates for GM and are doing the same for HC. I'm totally good with that.
I suspect using descriptors such as "predetermined" are an example of what some posters object to, along with being generally resistant to a whiff of skepticism. I'd use telegraphed as it's difficult to really know the former, but the heart of it is just gtfo out of the way and let Schoen hire his HC.
Mara desperately needed to get out of his circle for GM because 1) his circle sucked and 2) the GM and owner don't have to substantially collaborate on things.
I would add, if you've actually interviewed anybody, you don't get that much out of an interview. Actually working with someone is a million times more informative. That's why anybody massively weights a true account previous work experience if we can get it during a hiring process.
I'll say again- I don't know if Daboll is good. Nobody does. Schoen would have a lot more insight here, but even he doesn't know how he'd be as a HC. I don't know if Flores is a tremendous asshole or if the GM screwed him.
What we can say as fans is that the Giants talked to a set of reasonable candidates for GM and are doing the same for HC. I'm totally good with that.
In theory we would love an interview process that simply identifies the best person and puts them in that role, but that is really difficult to do.
If Schoen really wants Daboll then he should get to hire him. He is your GM because you trust he knows what he is doing. You can't hire him and then start overriding his first decisions.
Aligned with some of this but not all. Particularly regarding the comment that Schoen has developed all this perfect trust so far after being the NY Giant GM for just a few days. He has been given a big responsibility on this HC search but he's not some infallible GM all of sudden, and can still listen to feedback from others on the topic.
The Owners should be able to discuss the head coaching options with Schoen. And, in turn, Schoen should be able to provide his rational for his top choice and hopefully be compelling in doing so. If he can't or Schoen himself moves in another direction based on what he has learned this week during other interviews, it shouldn't be couched as an override at all.
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In comment 15575338 Mike from Ohio said:
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So your idea of the topics we should be discussing are what?
There is a coaching search going on and people are closely following the beats. When they say "Flores is getting an interview Friday" we can discuss it, but when the beat says "the owner and coach may not prefer the same candidate" we should not discuss it?
I don't understand this desire to come on a message board and tell people what information they should and should not discuss.
This wait and see how it plays out approach...does it apply to the 2022 season? If so, should we not discuss it yet because it is all just conjecture? Or can we speculate on some topics and not others?
Unfortunately a decade of losing has not fostered a "trust the process and see how it goes" attitude in all fans. I don't understand why so many who do have that view are so terribly sensitive about it.
Mike, please stop with these lectures, ok? I never said what should or shouldn’t be discussed in this case. I’m saying that not everything is a behind the scenes conspiracy, that since “it’s the Maras” and company, that means that it has to automatically be pressure on Schoen.
Mara said publicly Schoen will conduct the HC search and he’s not going to renege on that and put himself in a corner..He’s allowed as an owner to opine. Schoen is NOT obligated to act on that. I doubt he ever would, imv..
Please, not every post by me and others is directed at
people not posting ad infinitum stuff..
I'll stop with the lectures when you stop being the thought police. Mara himself acknowledged he lost the trust of the fans.
For the life of me I will never understand the need to tell people to stop discussing a topic you can easily avoid.
And for the life of me, I cannot understand why you have to lecture the board about the opposite. I have stopped criticizing the posters who continually post the same stuff. I believe you should do the same about lecturing others about whether or not we/they are fed up with the same posts..
I no longer speak to certain posters I’m fed up with (and they’ll do the same with me) or enter their threads..I’m trying hard to rise above my disatisfaction with wash/rinse/repeat..It seems that every post I make, you feel the need to turn it into me “deciding” what people should and should not post..
I simply disagree with their POV and say so..I have stopped telling them to stop posting their thoughts since I returned(it’s possible I’ve slipped on that front, but very little), but obviously you haven’t noticed.
Mara desperately needed to get out of his circle for GM because 1) his circle sucked and 2) the GM and owner don't have to substantially collaborate on things.
I would add, if you've actually interviewed anybody, you don't get that much out of an interview. Actually working with someone is a million times more informative. That's why anybody massively weights a true account previous work experience if we can get it during a hiring process.
I'll say again- I don't know if Daboll is good. Nobody does. Schoen would have a lot more insight here, but even he doesn't know how he'd be as a HC. I don't know if Flores is a tremendous asshole or if the GM screwed him.
What we can say as fans is that the Giants talked to a set of reasonable candidates for GM and are doing the same for HC. I'm totally good with that.
This is a good post.