Can one of our reporters ask Schoen...

is what articles like RV's yesterday are intimating : that Mara (for lack of a better term) is perhaps arranging and speaking to HC candidates in parallel with Schoen. It's been alluded to a few times over the past 7-10 days and hasn't gone unnoticed.

Perhaps they've agreed to split the work amongst them, perhaps Mara is running in parallel because he's the boss. We may not know for sure, but past history suggests it could be more of the same old surfacing early in the Schoen era.

I hope not. But, it doesn't compute to me to ignore it.

In comment 15575370 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

The GM and coach actually need to work together. They need to collaborate on vision, strategy, and execution. They need to be able to get along. Mara desperately needed to get out of his circle for GM because 1) his circle sucked and 2) the GM and owner don't have to substantially collaborate on things. I would add, if you've actually interviewed anybody, you don't get that much out of an interview. Actually working with someone is a million times more informative. That's why anybody massively weights a true account previous work experience if we can get it during a hiring process. I'll say again- I don't know if Daboll is good. Nobody does. Schoen would have a lot more insight here, but even he doesn't know how he'd be as a HC. I don't know if Flores is a tremendous asshole or if the GM screwed him. What we can say as fans is that the Giants talked to a set of reasonable candidates for GM and are doing the same for HC. I'm totally good with that.

Well said

but we don't just have a different POV. I have good discussions with people with whom I have a different point of view.

I do need to get better about ignoring instead of responding to the people who are running around this site calling people conspiracy theorists and haters and telling them to shut up with their thoughts.

In comment 15575403 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

but we don't just have a different POV. I have good discussions with people with whom I have a different point of view. I do need to get better about ignoring instead of responding to the people who are running around this site calling people conspiracy theorists and haters and telling them to shut up with their thoughts.

Well they should! 😂

Peace, bro..

I also find it interesting that they are interviewing all defensive guys with the exception of Daboll. If Daboll is hired without interviewing other Offensive guys that narrows it to one candidate in my opinion.

In comment 15575330 GiantsRage2007 said:

Quote:

As well. Maybe some of the guys from the Rams or 49ers... but with them still alive in the playoffs (and perhaps not us hiring Peters) those guys didn't get an interview. Also, maybe Petersen and/or Bienemey or Leftwich... what's the harm in hearing what people think about the organization or the path out of our losing? A little opposition research so to speak? The thing that concerns me now (right or wrong - but just the perception, I suppose) is that there is the guys Schoen wants to interview (Daboll, Frazier) and the guys Mara wants to interview (Flores, Quinn)... it seems fragmented to me. Just from the stories/leaks...

+1

That's what has caught the attention for sure.

that the "best candidate by appearances" to us is frequently NOT the best choice for a particular GM. Schoen has a vision on what course he wants to chart for the organization. He has to KNOW that the guy he hires as HC is in lock step with him for best chance of success. That will usually be someone he is VERY familiar with. So by definition, the HC search HAS to be different than the GM search.
We either trust Schoen or we don't. He has to be a strong enough person to stand up to ownership and say "this is how we are moving forward". Hope he has it in him.

In comment 15575398 JonC said:

Quote:

is what articles like RV's yesterday are intimating : that Mara (for lack of a better term) is perhaps arranging and speaking to HC candidates in parallel with Schoen. It's been alluded to a few times over the past 7-10 days and hasn't gone unnoticed. Perhaps they've agreed to split the work amongst them, perhaps Mara is running in parallel because he's the boss. We may not know for sure, but past history suggests it could be more of the same old surfacing early in the Schoen era. I hope not. But, it doesn't compute to me to ignore it.

+1. It is a bad look for immediately after supposedly conceding that the GM will have carte blanche.

Words are just words, actions speak louder.

In comment 15575398 JonC said:

Quote:

is what articles like RV's yesterday are intimating : that Mara (for lack of a better term) is perhaps arranging and speaking to HC candidates in parallel with Schoen. It's been alluded to a few times over the past 7-10 days and hasn't gone unnoticed. Perhaps they've agreed to split the work amongst them, perhaps Mara is running in parallel because he's the boss. We may not know for sure, but past history suggests it could be more of the same old surfacing early in the Schoen era. I hope not. But, it doesn't compute to me to ignore it.

It was intimated that two parallel sets of interviews are possibly going on, one with Schoen leading them and another with Mara?

I thought I saw confirmatory reports, put out directly by the Giants, every time they had an interview listing who the guys in the room were. And they are always the same group.

There are very, very few owners across all sports who literally do nothing except sign checks (probably zero).

I am very, very skeptical of the Maras and of the current front office setup. I think having Chris in his position is a disaster. But John is not going to do literally nothing. He's just not. And it's not reasonable to expect him to do nothing.

Scheon has to be able to run his show while also dealing with ownership. That's just part of the job. If Mara says, "hey check this guy out," Schoen needs to be able to manage that. He needs to say, "No, that guy sucks" or "OK I'll check him out" and then make and justify the decision he wants to make.

Schoen will have to master keeping the Mara's involved and feeling like they are part of the process and still going in the direction he wants. Hopefully he knows where to bend and where not to break.

I can't really come up with anyone else I would be interested in besides these 5 or so candidates. Bienemy seems to have baggage, plus Read is the guy there anyway. Leftwich is too junior for me, I prefer more experience. I really don't want to go for some hot assistant who has had 1 good season being an OC or DC

Be wowed by another Joe Judge. Is that better?

and not talk to anyone. What I am saying is that a non-football person who has admitted to being wrong time and again on making this call take a back seat to the football person he hired to do the job.

If you take a position in a company and are told you have carte blanche to run it the way you want, do you want the owner stopping by and saying "hey, I really like John Doe for the head up sales. I reached out to him and he is coming in on Tuesday for an interview with us."

Nobody is suggesting John Doe sucks at his job. He may be the guy you want to hire. What it suggests is that you may not have the carte blanche you believe you do.

is there could be dual sets of convos taking place. Remember, the Flores convo was reported before Schoen was hired, as one example. Again, it could be nothing but the past ten years of actions from Mara et al tend to inform differently. ymmv.

going on, then Schoen clearly isn't leading this process.

For what it's worth though, I just read the RV article and don't see that being intimated whatsoever. What are you pointing towards?

In comment 15575311 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

In comment 15575301 BillT said: Quote: We applauded Mara for going outside his circle. My point is that Schoen is doing what the Mara's have done in the past that led us here. Again, I hope Daboll works out. I do. I just don't see the downside in going outside your circle to learn.

Here's the difference as I see it. Schoen's job security depends on him making a good choice so he's going to hire the best guy available, as he sees it. If Mara hires family or a crony and the guy sucks, there are no consequences for Mara. He can't be fired, so he can just hire anyone he pleases, over and over.

He said he values Chris's opinion and that was why he wanted him in interviews for the GM. He said Tim worked his way up from the bottom and worked his way up and that he is one of the most trusted in the building. This was put out on other threads.

So what is the best course for JS to take? I think it is finding find some value in those two. Understand where they can help but limiting impact. Build trust and a workable relationship.

If you want to clean up the front office (getting rid of underperformers) JS will have a better chance if those two are aligned with him imv.

In comment 15575507 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

He said he values Chris's opinion and that was why he wanted him in interviews for the GM. He said Tim worked his way up from the bottom and worked his way up and that he is one of the most trusted in the building. This was put out on other threads. So what is the best course for JS to take? I think it is finding find some value in those two. Understand where they can help but limiting impact. Build trust and a workable relationship. If you want to clean up the front office (getting rid of underperformers) JS will have a better chance if those two are aligned with him imv.

Agree with this completely, which is why I don't buy the "I'll listen to the owners, but at the end of the day I will do whatever I want because I am in charge."

You don't come into an organization and immediately alienate the owner and the people he trusts and last long. He needs them to be behind him down the road which means he needs to make sure their feedback is part of the decision making process. If it isn't, he is jettisoned at the first sign of trouble because he alone owns the decisions.

In comment 15575298 Ira said:

Quote:

one of them might turn out to be better than the anyone in the small group of people the Giants are talking to.

Yes and it doesn't hurt to see other candidates outside your comfort zone.

In comment 15575520 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15575507 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: He said he values Chris's opinion and that was why he wanted him in interviews for the GM. He said Tim worked his way up from the bottom and worked his way up and that he is one of the most trusted in the building. This was put out on other threads. So what is the best course for JS to take? I think it is finding find some value in those two. Understand where they can help but limiting impact. Build trust and a workable relationship. If you want to clean up the front office (getting rid of underperformers) JS will have a better chance if those two are aligned with him imv. Agree with this completely, which is why I don't buy the "I'll listen to the owners, but at the end of the day I will do whatever I want because I am in charge." You don't come into an organization and immediately alienate the owner and the people he trusts and last long. He needs them to be behind him down the road which means he needs to make sure their feedback is part of the decision making process. If it isn't, he is jettisoned at the first sign of trouble because he alone owns the decisions.

Yes, that would be ideal of course

In comment 15575330 GiantsRage2007 said:

Quote:

As well. Maybe some of the guys from the Rams or 49ers... but with them still alive in the playoffs (and perhaps not us hiring Peters) those guys didn't get an interview. Also, maybe Petersen and/or Bienemey or Leftwich... what's the harm in hearing what people think about the organization or the path out of our losing? A little opposition research so to speak? The thing that concerns me now (right or wrong - but just the perception, I suppose) is that there is the guys Schoen wants to interview (Daboll, Frazier) and the guys Mara wants to interview (Flores, Quinn)... it seems fragmented to me. Just from the stories/leaks...

I think you and OP have echoed my concerns

In comment 15575498 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

going on, then Schoen clearly isn't leading this process. For what it's worth though, I just read the RV article and don't see that being intimated whatsoever. What are you pointing towards?

There's been a handful of articles over the past 7-10 days, by RV, Leonard, perhaps others. My instincts after reading were barking at me, ymmv.

In comment 15575398 JonC said:

Quote:

is what articles like RV's yesterday are intimating : that Mara (for lack of a better term) is perhaps arranging and speaking to HC candidates in parallel with Schoen. It's been alluded to a few times over the past 7-10 days and hasn't gone unnoticed. Perhaps they've agreed to split the work amongst them, perhaps Mara is running in parallel because he's the boss. We may not know for sure, but past history suggests it could be more of the same old surfacing early in the Schoen era. I hope not. But, it doesn't compute to me to ignore it.

I read the RV article differently. It stated that Daboll, who has a relationship with the man who will be making the decision, is the clear favorite but at the point not a lock. Mara was suspected to like Flores. I think if we have our minds set on Schoen locking himself in a dark room by himself and making a decision, that is not how this is going to happen, nor do I think it should. Schoen have been reported to have been given the decision making power here, but he is also a brand new GM. Having discussions/dialogue and exchange of ideas here is a good thing and not the same as owner meddling. At the very least Mara should have some experiences I would want to draw on if I were Schoen.

In comment 15575488 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

If you take a position in a company and are told you have carte blanche to run it the way you want, do you want the owner stopping by and saying "hey, I really like John Doe for the head up sales. I reached out to him and he is coming in on Tuesday for an interview with us."

Would I like that exact scenario? Probably not, but you never know. Maybe the candidate ends up being good. Maybe I can navigate the situation smoothly with my boss. Granted, in my work experience, the big bosses have earned their positions rather than inheriting them like Mara, so their input is often (but not always) useful to me.

There's a lot about this that we don't know. And I agree, there's a version of this that is bad. But there's also a version that is completely routine business that is going to happen all the time, everywhere. I run things. I still report to my boss. He runs bigger things, he still reports to his boss. Anyone who is an employee is always going to have a boss. And that boss is almost always going to weigh in on some things.

Bottom line for me - I think this offseason has been great. We have a real GM who's not a moron and not in the Giants inner circle. We're probably going to get a real head coach. The processes for hiring both have appeared to be solid. This is way, way better than where we were and where I expected us to be.

I'm not going to say "you should feel x or y". But for me, I've seen a lot of progress here in the past few weeks. I've been hyper-negative about the Giants for the past 4 years (correctly). I see some things to at least make me feel neutral or cautiously optimistic. So I'm not going to get hung up on things that are part of a typical boss-employee relationship.

and have seen nothing to intimate parallel interviews are taking place, and without Schoen.

But can see that fans are on edge a bit, and such posting is following suit.

given the past ten years of their demonstrated history, and my own history of accuracy for reading situations, I'll remain skeptical.

In comment 15575586 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

Bottom line for me - I think this offseason has been great. We have a real GM who's not a moron and not in the Giants inner circle. We're probably going to get a real head coach. The processes for hiring both have appeared to be solid. This is way, way better than where we were and where I expected us to be. I'm not going to say "you should feel x or y". But for me, I've seen a lot of progress here in the past few weeks. I've been hyper-negative about the Giants for the past 4 years (correctly). I see some things to at least make me feel neutral or cautiously optimistic. So I'm not going to get hung up on things that are part of a typical boss-employee relationship.

More good comments here Jerry. I feel very much the same way.

But there is another wrinkle here that you touched on.

In that scenario, now imagine that your boss is the son of the former owner, and the company has been in a free fall for the last decade. You worked with some talented people in your last company and want to bring in your own person.

How do you feel now when the boss mentions he invited someone in for an interview? I'd suggest many would look at it through the lens of "I need to negotiate this very delicately."

I think some of us see this situation this was and are justifiably skeptical.

I'm just watching for a string finish that passes the sniff test too.

...

In comment 15575619 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15575586 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: Bottom line for me - I think this offseason has been great. We have a real GM who's not a moron and not in the Giants inner circle. We're probably going to get a real head coach. The processes for hiring both have appeared to be solid. This is way, way better than where we were and where I expected us to be. I'm not going to say "you should feel x or y". But for me, I've seen a lot of progress here in the past few weeks. I've been hyper-negative about the Giants for the past 4 years (correctly). I see some things to at least make me feel neutral or cautiously optimistic. So I'm not going to get hung up on things that are part of a typical boss-employee relationship. More good comments here Jerry. I feel very much the same way.

As do I

In comment 15575628 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

But there is another wrinkle here that you touched on. In that scenario, now imagine that your boss is the son of the former owner, and the company has been in a free fall for the last decade. You worked with some talented people in your last company and want to bring in your own person. How do you feel now when the boss mentions he invited someone in for an interview? I'd suggest many would look at it through the lens of "I need to negotiate this very delicately." I think some of us see this situation this was and are justifiably skeptical.

That is a very specific hypothetical that is going to take me way off topic. What would I do? I would only take that job if they offered > 2x my market value. I'd save the excess money and after q year I might quit or get fired. Then I would take a 6 month sabbatical and play golf every day.

In comment 15575649 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

In comment 15575628 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: But there is another wrinkle here that you touched on. In that scenario, now imagine that your boss is the son of the former owner, and the company has been in a free fall for the last decade. You worked with some talented people in your last company and want to bring in your own person. How do you feel now when the boss mentions he invited someone in for an interview? I'd suggest many would look at it through the lens of "I need to negotiate this very delicately." I think some of us see this situation this was and are justifiably skeptical. That is a very specific hypothetical that is going to take me way off topic. What would I do? I would only take that job if they offered > 2x my market value. I'd save the excess money and after q year I might quit or get fired. Then I would take a 6 month sabbatical and play golf every day.

Those are great answers! Let's hope Joe Schoen's are a little different though.

9 is a small sample, and adding 3-6 more just over thinks and even complicate something the process; especially when it looks like the average searches seem to be 5 or even less.
And I would guess some of the candidates might be indirectly interviewing for Coordinator or position coach at the same time.
Do we still want to run the ball, stop the run,….. and what that means for SB, LW, DL,
Or do we now go Air Daboll, and what it means for KG, KT, and aWR draftee, and who coaches any of that specifically.

In comment 15575386 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15575355 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: most people moving into a new role want people they know and trust around them. If you have succeeded to a certain point in your career its because you have identified who can help you succeed and who you can't rely on. Having a coach he knows shares the same vision and he can talk to candidly is a huge asset. In theory we would love an interview process that simply identifies the best person and puts them in that role, but that is really difficult to do. If Schoen really wants Daboll then he should get to hire him. He is your GM because you trust he knows what he is doing. You can't hire him and then start overriding his first decisions. Aligned with some of this but not all. Particularly regarding the comment that Schoen has developed all this perfect trust so far after being the NY Giant GM for just a few days. He has been given a big responsibility on this HC search but he's not some infallible GM all of sudden, and can still listen to feedback from others on the topic. The Owners should be able to discuss the head coaching options with Schoen. And, in turn, Schoen should be able to provide his rational for his top choice and hopefully be compelling in doing so. If he can't or Schoen himself moves in another direction based on what he has learned this week during other interviews, it shouldn't be couched as an override at all.

I think the point is, Schoen earned the job specifically in the context of succeeding where ownership has failed recently. The trust is implied because it is necessary for what the entire point of bringing Schoen in as GM requires.

Does ownership retain the right to overrule him? Absolutely. They own the team. They obviously can overrule him.

Should they? If they do, isn't it still just business as usual at NYGHQ and the new big brain is just another figurehead?

In comment 15575695 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15575386 NYGgolfer said: Quote: In comment 15575355 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: most people moving into a new role want people they know and trust around them. If you have succeeded to a certain point in your career its because you have identified who can help you succeed and who you can't rely on. Having a coach he knows shares the same vision and he can talk to candidly is a huge asset. In theory we would love an interview process that simply identifies the best person and puts them in that role, but that is really difficult to do. If Schoen really wants Daboll then he should get to hire him. He is your GM because you trust he knows what he is doing. You can't hire him and then start overriding his first decisions. Aligned with some of this but not all. Particularly regarding the comment that Schoen has developed all this perfect trust so far after being the NY Giant GM for just a few days. He has been given a big responsibility on this HC search but he's not some infallible GM all of sudden, and can still listen to feedback from others on the topic. The Owners should be able to discuss the head coaching options with Schoen. And, in turn, Schoen should be able to provide his rational for his top choice and hopefully be compelling in doing so. If he can't or Schoen himself moves in another direction based on what he has learned this week during other interviews, it shouldn't be couched as an override at all. I think the point is, Schoen earned the job specifically in the context of succeeding where ownership has failed recently. The trust is implied because it is necessary for what the entire point of bringing Schoen in as GM requires. Does ownership retain the right to overrule him? Absolutely. They own the team. They obviously can overrule him. Should they? If they do, isn't it still just business as usual at NYGHQ and the new big brain is just another figurehead?

No, I agree ownership should not be simply overruling Schoen.

Especially if he is able to paint a compelling case for his first choice, and in turn ownership cannot with their choice. But that is why there should be some level of discussion and collaboration in the process. And this is what I believe was mentioned at Schoen's press conference earlier today.

As much as this fan board is wary of John Mara, painting both him (and Tisch) as unreasonable, unwavering authoritarians may sound interesting but is likely far from the truth when it comes to choosing the next Head Coach.

In comment 15576523 NYGgolfer said:

Quote:

In comment 15575695 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 15575386 NYGgolfer said: Quote: In comment 15575355 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: most people moving into a new role want people they know and trust around them. If you have succeeded to a certain point in your career its because you have identified who can help you succeed and who you can't rely on. Having a coach he knows shares the same vision and he can talk to candidly is a huge asset. In theory we would love an interview process that simply identifies the best person and puts them in that role, but that is really difficult to do. If Schoen really wants Daboll then he should get to hire him. He is your GM because you trust he knows what he is doing. You can't hire him and then start overriding his first decisions. Aligned with some of this but not all. Particularly regarding the comment that Schoen has developed all this perfect trust so far after being the NY Giant GM for just a few days. He has been given a big responsibility on this HC search but he's not some infallible GM all of sudden, and can still listen to feedback from others on the topic. The Owners should be able to discuss the head coaching options with Schoen. And, in turn, Schoen should be able to provide his rational for his top choice and hopefully be compelling in doing so. If he can't or Schoen himself moves in another direction based on what he has learned this week during other interviews, it shouldn't be couched as an override at all. I think the point is, Schoen earned the job specifically in the context of succeeding where ownership has failed recently. The trust is implied because it is necessary for what the entire point of bringing Schoen in as GM requires. Does ownership retain the right to overrule him? Absolutely. They own the team. They obviously can overrule him. Should they? If they do, isn't it still just business as usual at NYGHQ and the new big brain is just another figurehead? No, I agree ownership should not be simply overruling Schoen. Especially if he is able to paint a compelling case for his first choice, and in turn ownership cannot with their choice. But that is why there should be some level of discussion and collaboration in the process. And this is what I believe was mentioned at Schoen's press conference earlier today. As much as this fan board is wary of John Mara, painting both him (and Tisch) as unreasonable, unwavering authoritarians may sound interesting but is likely far from the truth when it comes to choosing the next Head Coach.

It's not about painting them as unreasonable, unwavering authoritarians.

It's about recognizing that their football acumen might not stack up to those who have risen the ranks on merit instead of wealth.

his highest level football professional, to lead the process of finding the new Head Coach.

And Schoen indicated he expected, after collaborating with the owners, his choice would be approved.