“LeBron is in a class of his own. He is absolutely unique. He is Michael, he is Magic, he is Kobe, he’s Jerry West, he’s Bill Russell. You take all of these great, great players, and put them in a blender and mix them up, LeBron’s got something from all of them in him.”
He forgot to name a GM on the list, but hard to argue with the on court abilities.
Scott Layden.
Didn't Riley replace Paul Westphal because Magic hated him, or am I misremembering that?
One of the things that always impressed me about Riley was how stylistically different the Showtime Lakers were in comparison to the 90s Knicks. One team was a legendary offensive force known for their all-time great fastbreak. The other team slowed and grinded the game into a defensive slugfest to such a degree that it shaped the style of basketball played across the league for a decade plus.
Can't wait to see the HBO show with Adrien Brody as Riley.
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is truly legend in every possible way. His story is pretty wild too. His dad played in the minors for the Phillies for something like 25 years. Retired to manage (he managed a 20 year old Tommy Lasorda in fact!). Riley sort of fell into coaching and only became Lakers coach because their coach at the time had a devastating head injury while riding a bike. Most of the stuff credited to Riley offensively apparently was already in place via Jack McKinney. His time with the Knicks he truly put his stamp on the entire organization from top to bottom. Losing Riley (tbh the Knicks never really had a chance to keep him because he aspired to become an owner/ownership), which he was able to do with Miami.
Didn't Riley replace Paul Westphal because Magic hated him, or am I misremembering that?
Riley was on TV, when McKinney got hurt Westhead was named the interim coach. Westhead hired Riley as his assistant. Magic hated Westhead and asked to be traded if Westhead was came back (Buss wanted Jerry West to be a player coach, he even named him coach but West refused), Riley was then named interim HC and then never lost the position.
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is truly legend in every possible way. His story is pretty wild too. His dad played in the minors for the Phillies for something like 25 years. Retired to manage (he managed a 20 year old Tommy Lasorda in fact!). Riley sort of fell into coaching and only became Lakers coach because their coach at the time had a devastating head injury while riding a bike. Most of the stuff credited to Riley offensively apparently was already in place via Jack McKinney. His time with the Knicks he truly put his stamp on the entire organization from top to bottom. Losing Riley (tbh the Knicks never really had a chance to keep him because he aspired to become an owner/ownership), which he was able to do with Miami.
One of the things that always impressed me about Riley was how stylistically different the Showtime Lakers were in comparison to the 90s Knicks. One team was a legendary offensive force known for their all-time great fastbreak. The other team slowed and grinded the game into a defensive slugfest to such a degree that it shaped the style of basketball played across the league for a decade plus.
Can't wait to see the HBO show with Adrien Brody as Riley.
Riley apparently didn't see the Showtime Lakers as what he wanted to be as a coach. He might retroactively have said that (Winning with Magic/Kareem/Worthy seems less impressive than had he actually won with Ewing and Co. I guess?). Riley is a very interesting guy. He also seemingly is money obsessed (I mean who isn't?) but with both the Knicks and Heat he needed it in his contract that they would pay for his dry cleaning? and a per diem?. In Chris Blessing's new book he asserts that Riley held a grudge against the Knicks for YEARS for not paying him back 10,000 he laid out for a gambling/team building excursion in Reno. Went as far as to put the new owner (I forget his name) on blast upon their first meeting.
Riley was on TV, when McKinney got hurt Westhead was named the interim coach. Westhead hired Riley as his assistant. Magic hated Westhead and asked to be traded if Westhead was came back (Buss wanted Jerry West to be a player coach, he even named him coach but West refused), Riley was then named interim HC and then never lost the position.
Westhead, not Westphal, thanks. Buss wanted Jerry West to play in 1982? He was 43 years old!
Riley apparently didn't see the Showtime Lakers as what he wanted to be as a coach. He might retroactively have said that (Winning with Magic/Kareem/Worthy seems less impressive than had he actually won with Ewing and Co. I guess?). Riley is a very interesting guy. He also seemingly is money obsessed (I mean who isn't?) but with both the Knicks and Heat he needed it in his contract that they would pay for his dry cleaning? and a per diem?. In Chris Blessing's new book he asserts that Riley held a grudge against the Knicks for YEARS for not paying him back 10,000 he laid out for a gambling/team building excursion in Reno. Went as far as to put the new owner (I forget his name) on blast upon their first meeting.
I read an excerpt from that book, and one of the demands Riley made to Miami was a $200 per diem. Micky Arison was shocked that a guy asking for a $50M contract would worry about a $200 per diem.
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Riley was on TV, when McKinney got hurt Westhead was named the interim coach. Westhead hired Riley as his assistant. Magic hated Westhead and asked to be traded if Westhead was came back (Buss wanted Jerry West to be a player coach, he even named him coach but West refused), Riley was then named interim HC and then never lost the position.
Westhead, not Westphal, thanks. Buss wanted Jerry West to play in 1982? He was 43 years old!
I don't think there is video but West apparently didn't even tell Buss, he just waited until the press conference to let Buss know he wouldn't be interested lol Clearly they made up as West stayed with the Lakers/Buss for a long time
"Shortly afterward, Lakers' owner Jerry Buss fired Westhead. At an ensuing press conference, with Jerry West at his side, Buss named West head coach. West, however, balked, and Buss awkwardly tried to name West as "offensive captain" and then named West and Riley as co-coaches"
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Riley apparently didn't see the Showtime Lakers as what he wanted to be as a coach. He might retroactively have said that (Winning with Magic/Kareem/Worthy seems less impressive than had he actually won with Ewing and Co. I guess?). Riley is a very interesting guy. He also seemingly is money obsessed (I mean who isn't?) but with both the Knicks and Heat he needed it in his contract that they would pay for his dry cleaning? and a per diem?. In Chris Blessing's new book he asserts that Riley held a grudge against the Knicks for YEARS for not paying him back 10,000 he laid out for a gambling/team building excursion in Reno. Went as far as to put the new owner (I forget his name) on blast upon their first meeting.
I read an excerpt from that book, and one of the demands Riley made to Miami was a $200 per diem. Micky Arison was shocked that a guy asking for a $50M contract would worry about a $200 per diem.
He repeatedly comes off as really obsessed with money in the book. He also was able to coax a lot out of a pretty "okay" Knicks team, the guy obviously is a legendary coach but he also seems like a maniac lol. I had no idea his brother briefly played for the NYG. Before my time and it was brief.
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is truly legend in every possible way. His story is pretty wild too. His dad played in the minors for the Phillies for something like 25 years. Retired to manage (he managed a 20 year old Tommy Lasorda in fact!). Riley sort of fell into coaching and only became Lakers coach because their coach at the time had a devastating head injury while riding a bike. Most of the stuff credited to Riley offensively apparently was already in place via Jack McKinney. His time with the Knicks he truly put his stamp on the entire organization from top to bottom. Losing Riley (tbh the Knicks never really had a chance to keep him because he aspired to become an owner/ownership), which he was able to do with Miami.
One of the things that always impressed me about Riley was how stylistically different the Showtime Lakers were in comparison to the 90s Knicks. One team was a legendary offensive force known for their all-time great fastbreak. The other team slowed and grinded the game into a defensive slugfest to such a degree that it shaped the style of basketball played across the league for a decade plus.
Can't wait to see the HBO show with Adrien Brody as Riley.
I wonder how much of the offensive style was based off of Ewing, who very clearly did not want to play up-tempo.
Career Jordan
pts 30.1
fg% 49.7
3pt% 32.7
reb 6.2
ast 5.3
stl 2.3
blk 0.8
Career James
pts 29.1
fg% 52.2
3pt% 35.2
reb 7.7
ast 6.3
stl 1.6
blk 1.1
Can't see how this comparison could be considered a jest.
No matter the eras (and the eras aren't "totally" different) these two a 1 and 1a or the other way around. It's a perfectly legitimate question under any criteria.
Jordan won more championships, playing with the guys he was given, rather than orchestrating super teams. That to me is the ultimate criterion
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When the eras are totally different.
No matter the eras (and the eras aren't "totally" different) these two a 1 and 1a or the other way around. It's a perfectly legitimate question under any criteria.
Yes the eras are totally different when you include hand checking not allowed now, the 3 ball being emphasized at a much higher level. Personnel with a stretch 4 being prominent and very little true center in todays game.
I am not diminishing Lebron at all - but it’s pretty fair to say Jordan in todays game would probably have better counting stats. That’s all I’m saying.
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In comment 15576084 GNewGiants said:
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When the eras are totally different.
No matter the eras (and the eras aren't "totally" different) these two a 1 and 1a or the other way around. It's a perfectly legitimate question under any criteria.
Yes the eras are totally different when you include hand checking not allowed now, the 3 ball being emphasized at a much higher level. Personnel with a stretch 4 being prominent and very little true center in todays game.
I am not diminishing Lebron at all - but it’s pretty fair to say Jordan in todays game would probably have better counting stats. That’s all I’m saying.
You called the comparison a jest. It isn't.
And I hated Jordan.
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In comment 15576103 BillT said:
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In comment 15576084 GNewGiants said:
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When the eras are totally different.
No matter the eras (and the eras aren't "totally" different) these two a 1 and 1a or the other way around. It's a perfectly legitimate question under any criteria.
Yes the eras are totally different when you include hand checking not allowed now, the 3 ball being emphasized at a much higher level. Personnel with a stretch 4 being prominent and very little true center in todays game.
I am not diminishing Lebron at all - but it’s pretty fair to say Jordan in todays game would probably have better counting stats. That’s all I’m saying.
You called the comparison a jest. It isn't.
Well it is. The gap between Jordan and James is wider than the gap between James and Jabbar(my third all time ranked player.)
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Surely everyone jests.
Career Jordan
pts 30.1
fg% 49.7
3pt% 32.7
reb 6.2
ast 5.3
stl 2.3
blk 0.8
Career James
pts 29.1
fg% 52.2
3pt% 35.2
reb 7.7
ast 6.3
stl 1.6
blk 1.1
Can't see how this comparison could be considered a jest.
LeBron has averaged 27.1 PPG in his career.
MJ also has
A Defensive Player of the Year award
9 times All NBA first team defense
Mid range FG attempts is down to 13% - it was 30% a decade ago. Jordan has entire seasons where he made 60% of his shots in the mid range game. That’s about 7 attempts made per game which is almost double the current NBA leaders.
LeBron is a great player, not the greatest.
Riley may have the most interesting player/coach/executive basketball resume of all time. Look I tup.
When you start talking about comparing eras, you introduce too much speculation into the argument: "Jordan would have X more points if he played now!" or "LeBron would never have performed well against the defense teams like X and Y used!"
Why not just stick to what doesn't need speculation? Both of them have otherworldly accomplishments. James likely won't finish his career with as many championships as Jordan, but he appeared in so many consecutive championships across several different rosters, staffs, and even teams that his impact upon the league can't be overstated. Even though the Cavs lost 3 titles against the Warriors, his performance in each of those series was phenomenal and his influence in them could not be denied.
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When the eras are totally different.
When you start talking about comparing eras, you introduce too much speculation into the argument: "Jordan would have X more points if he played now!" or "LeBron would never have performed well against the defense teams like X and Y used!"
Why not just stick to what doesn't need speculation? Both of them have otherworldly accomplishments. James likely won't finish his career with as many championships as Jordan, but he appeared in so many consecutive championships across several different rosters, staffs, and even teams that his impact upon the league can't be overstated. Even though the Cavs lost 3 titles against the Warriors, his performance in each of those series was phenomenal and his influence in them could not be denied.
I didn’t use stats to compare them. It’s a futile argument. I don’t think it’s far fetched to say Jordans counting stats would be better today. It’s a more open, ball dominant game. And I don’t think it’s far fetched to say Lebrons counting stars would decline slightly if he played during the 90s. It’s just the nature of the beast.
I am not diminishing what Lebron has accomplished. I said he was the 2nd best ever. But I just find the gap wider between Lebron than most do. And even though he has been to the finals a lot, many of them are still losses. Jordan never had a “mavericks” type series.
When you compare legends - I just don’t think counting stats are the way to go. I mean look at QBs today compared to the 80s and 90s. We aren’t going to argue that because todays QBs who put up numbers are better than those of that generation. I mean is Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, etc better than Marino, Elway, etc… of course not.
Lebron has had a MAJOR career defining impact on the NBA. But I just don’t think it compares to Jordan. Calling him 2nd best isn’t disrespecting him.
Him leaving the Knicks was by far the most impactful move of the history of New York sports.
Him leaving the Knicks was by far the most impactful move of the history of New York sports.
I think that one goes to the Babe Ruth trade. Belichick passing on the Jets is another one that comes to mind. But Riley leaving the Knicks was definitely a significant move.
I think Riley probably enjoyed seeing Phil Jackson fail so hard as a FO figure for the Knicks. That's definitely an edge to Riley when you're comparing the two.
Him leaving the Knicks was by far the most impactful move of the history of New York sports.
the Knicks had been owned by publicly traded corporations since the 70s. I guess they could have given him a bunch of shares which would have given him a nice payday. But he probably preferred reporting up to one guy (Arison) in Miami. Maybe if Paramont/Viacom had given him Checketts' job he would have stayed, but that was never going to happen in 1995.
Don Nelson apparently had plays that they ran in practice in which Ewing would be the primary ball handler and take the ball up the court lol. That being said, if you read more into what Nelly was promoting, it's essentially what the modern NBA looks like now. Positionless, spread the court etc.
It was one of those injuries where they worried about blood flow, more common in the NFL (ala Alex Smith) and car accidents.
He was definitely ahead of his time with his unique skill-set. One of best college players ever during his time at Virginia Tech.
It's a shame that he couldn't stay healthy. The Sampson/Hakeem duo took down Riley's Showtime Lakers in '86. The Lakers were the Champions in '85, '87, and '88 so that shows what a huge upset that was.
I know it was Virginia lol
All 3 would be able to shoot 3s and dominate.
It goes back to the 80s right after they drafted Ewing. They were still picking high in the draft for a couple of years but they couldn't land another star to play with him. Kenny Walker was the 5th pick. I think they ended up trading what became lottery picks for guys like Gerald Henderson and Juwann Oldman (a center! after they already drafted Ewing!).
They luck out by getting Rod Strickland with #19 - but then trade him after a year for a washed up Cheeks. It's sort of a miracle that they were as good as they were under Riley. They really did a good job finding talent that had been overlooked (Mason, Starks).
Contrast that with the Bulls - who were able to land Pippen and Grant in the lottery in back to back years.
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still don't understand how the Knicks were completely unable to land a true second star to go with Ewing. He was a rare superstar who didn't care for/need the spotlight, they had Riley a proven winner and yet had to settle for moves like Charles Smith and finding a way to have him... play the 3? They always managed to add good players after their primes... Doc Rivers, Blackman, Harper. Who knows how true it really is but in 1996 they apparently wanted to land one or both Kobe/Jermaine O'Neal using their 3 picks to move up but refused to move "core pieces". Presumably Mason or Starks.
It goes back to the 80s right after they drafted Ewing. They were still picking high in the draft for a couple of years but they couldn't land another star to play with him. Kenny Walker was the 5th pick. I think they ended up trading what became lottery picks for guys like Gerald Henderson and Juwann Oldman (a center! after they already drafted Ewing!).
They luck out by getting Rod Strickland with #19 - but then trade him after a year for a washed up Cheeks. It's sort of a miracle that they were as good as they were under Riley. They really did a good job finding talent that had been overlooked (Mason, Starks).
Contrast that with the Bulls - who were able to land Pippen and Grant in the lottery in back to back years.
Pippen and grant same draft.
Pippen - 5th
Grant - 10th
Sorry 2000-2001 Knicks
“I was working in a young team in Turkey. I was watching a lot. When I watch, I learn quickly, and it also helps me a lot. But also I’d like to work with Hakeem Olajuwon about this. We will work in the future. He said, ‘I’ll teach you some moves.’ It’s good for me, I’m waiting.”
– Alperen Sengun
maybe during the same time period during which he was traded to Houston. But I don't think it made sense prior to that. Portland was as good or better than the Knicks during most of Drexler's time there.
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Probably sounded crazy at the time, but giving Pat Riley part ownership of the Knicks would have been the best investment they ever made.
Him leaving the Knicks was by far the most impactful move of the history of New York sports.
the Knicks had been owned by publicly traded corporations since the 70s. I guess they could have given him a bunch of shares which would have given him a nice payday. But he probably preferred reporting up to one guy (Arison) in Miami. Maybe if Paramont/Viacom had given him Checketts' job he would have stayed, but that was never going to happen in 1995.
It clearly worked out for Riley but something could have gotten done. Reportedly Riley asked for a 10-20 percent stake. Back then ITT owned 85% and Cablevision 15%. The CEO of ITT wouldn't even discuss it with him.
You figure out a way to get 5-10% to Riley and name him president and let him run all of basketball operations. Things would have gone a lot better for the Knicks those past 27 years ( they couldn't have gone much worse). Just look at the Heat to this day...
I'd bet Riley could have won some titles here and the Knicks would be the number 1 NY team. I also think it would have helped the NBA as a whole tremendously...
I still say its the biggest shift/ what if in NY sports history.
It's a massive scam because it's obvious that his fluidity is what made his moves so devastating and there's really no other big that can move like that. Even Kobe didn't have the same flow to it when he learned from Hakeem, and that's Kobe. If Kobe came the closest to replicating it but couldn't quite do it in the same way, what makes Dwight Howard or Javale McGee or whatever other big man think he has a chance in hell at replicating Hakeem's moves?
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In comment 15578510 TyreeHelmet said:
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Probably sounded crazy at the time, but giving Pat Riley part ownership of the Knicks would have been the best investment they ever made.
Him leaving the Knicks was by far the most impactful move of the history of New York sports.
the Knicks had been owned by publicly traded corporations since the 70s. I guess they could have given him a bunch of shares which would have given him a nice payday. But he probably preferred reporting up to one guy (Arison) in Miami. Maybe if Paramont/Viacom had given him Checketts' job he would have stayed, but that was never going to happen in 1995.
It clearly worked out for Riley but something could have gotten done. Reportedly Riley asked for a 10-20 percent stake. Back then ITT owned 85% and Cablevision 15%. The CEO of ITT wouldn't even discuss it with him.
You figure out a way to get 5-10% to Riley and name him president and let him run all of basketball operations. Things would have gone a lot better for the Knicks those past 27 years ( they couldn't have gone much worse). Just look at the Heat to this day...
I'd bet Riley could have won some titles here and the Knicks would be the number 1 NY team. I also think it would have helped the NBA as a whole tremendously...
I still say its the biggest shift/ what if in NY sports history.
definitely a no-brainer in hindsight. But Checketts was powerful and well liked. Riley didn't have the juice to push him out or become his boss.
Even if it happened, you know dolan would have fucked it up once Cablevision became the majority owners a few years later.
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still don't understand how the Knicks were completely unable to land a true second star to go with Ewing. He was a rare superstar who didn't care for/need the spotlight, they had Riley a proven winner and yet had to settle for moves like Charles Smith and finding a way to have him... play the 3? They always managed to add good players after their primes... Doc Rivers, Blackman, Harper. Who knows how true it really is but in 1996 they apparently wanted to land one or both Kobe/Jermaine O'Neal using their 3 picks to move up but refused to move "core pieces". Presumably Mason or Starks.
It goes back to the 80s right after they drafted Ewing. They were still picking high in the draft for a couple of years but they couldn't land another star to play with him. Kenny Walker was the 5th pick. I think they ended up trading what became lottery picks for guys like Gerald Henderson and Juwann Oldman (a center! after they already drafted Ewing!).
They luck out by getting Rod Strickland with #19 - but then trade him after a year for a washed up Cheeks. It's sort of a miracle that they were as good as they were under Riley. They really did a good job finding talent that had been overlooked (Mason, Starks).
Contrast that with the Bulls - who were able to land Pippen and Grant in the lottery in back to back years.
Bingo. Al bianchi blew it here.
1) Jordan. Let's face it...if MJ was never born, Ewing, Chuck, Malone, etc. have a ring(s) on their finger.
2) His best supporting actor was Starks. I love Starks, but come on. He'll never be confused with Pippen (MJ), Dumars (Thomas), Cooper/Big Game James (Magic)/McHale & The Chief (Bird), etc.
3) People forget it, but Hakeem DOMINATED Ewing in the '94 Finals. I don't remember the exact #s, but Hakeem ate his lunch.
I'm sure I'm forgetting others, but it wasn't meant to be. Entertaining as hell era for me as a Knicks fan. I got the Chris Herring book & am looking forward to diving into it this weekend.
& man, if Riles had stayed in NY & gotten a stake in ownership or a role like he did in Miami...one wonders.
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In comment 15575661 DanMetroMan said:
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is truly legend in every possible way. His story is pretty wild too. His dad played in the minors for the Phillies for something like 25 years. Retired to manage (he managed a 20 year old Tommy Lasorda in fact!). Riley sort of fell into coaching and only became Lakers coach because their coach at the time had a devastating head injury while riding a bike. Most of the stuff credited to Riley offensively apparently was already in place via Jack McKinney. His time with the Knicks he truly put his stamp on the entire organization from top to bottom. Losing Riley (tbh the Knicks never really had a chance to keep him because he aspired to become an owner/ownership), which he was able to do with Miami.
One of the things that always impressed me about Riley was how stylistically different the Showtime Lakers were in comparison to the 90s Knicks. One team was a legendary offensive force known for their all-time great fastbreak. The other team slowed and grinded the game into a defensive slugfest to such a degree that it shaped the style of basketball played across the league for a decade plus.
Can't wait to see the HBO show with Adrien Brody as Riley.
Riley apparently didn't see the Showtime Lakers as what he wanted to be as a coach. He might retroactively have said that (Winning with Magic/Kareem/Worthy seems less impressive than had he actually won with Ewing and Co. I guess?). Riley is a very interesting guy. He also seemingly is money obsessed (I mean who isn't?) but with both the Knicks and Heat he needed it in his contract that they would pay for his dry cleaning? and a per diem?. In Chris Blessing's new book he asserts that Riley held a grudge against the Knicks for YEARS for not paying him back 10,000 he laid out for a gambling/team building excursion in Reno. Went as far as to put the new owner (I forget his name) on blast upon their first meeting.
Just out of curiosity, Joe, do you really not know (m)any people who aren't obsessed with money? Not a value judgement, just curious. I ask because I was a teacher, and no one I worked with was interested in money, let alone obsessed with it. Ditto for over half of my classmates in HS and college.