I was driving to an appointment and briefly got to listen to NFL radio around 11:15 Eastern time this morning; first chance to post.
Essentially what Weis said (I couldn't jot down his exact words as I was driving) as I recall was:
| "...can't give Daniel Jones a "letter grade" yet, rather any grade on Jones must be an "Incomplete" (which is disappointing since 2021 was going to be the year to get that grade / assessment). Weis further acknowledged that some people already feel Jones is a bust, while others already feel he's shown enough in spite of the lack of support around him, to feel pretty good about Jones going forward. Weis isn't in either of those two camps right now." |
My naive hope is to just report Weis' opinion (which I agree with), rather than start another Daniel Jones pro / con mud slinging thread.
More than his fumbles and picks?
What's the old record? :)
and the exact same things will be said again and again and again and again in every single thread
Compared to this season which was widely known as the "Decision"? I think we are so broken and the expectations and narrative on how close we are are so low across the board now I actually think the reverse. He becomes another problem on the long list of problems rather then the focal point he was this past season as we thought we had everything else in place.
Which is exactly what Mara and Schoen said today that they are going to do
The one habit he needs to kick is eyeing down that first read. He was a first read QB coming out of Duke and the type of system Cutcliffe ran.
Whoever the coach ends up being, there will be a new staff, new coaches and coordinators. I am not ready to write him off just yet.
Yeah, this is the problem. You can't wait longer than 4 years for a QB to emerge as top notch before you need to move on because of the salary structure. Jones has gotten a raw deal, but that's the way it goes.
???
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
Quote:
In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
I suspect there's a correlation between the turnover reduction and the TD reduction: he's played more conservatively, and it's showing up in the statline. There might not be a good equilibrium for Jones in terms of TDs versus turnovers.
But I believe Mara/Schoen/new HC have a lot of good reasons why they may draft another QB in Round One.
If nothing else, how about competition at the QB position, not to mention a legit backup in case Daniel Jones goes down again.
One mo’ time:
#5 Matt Corral
#7 Best remaining OL
Which is exactly what Mara and Schoen said today that they are going to do
Agreed..
Quote:
In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
These are related.
He is afraid to throw so turnovers are down, but so is production.
Quote:
In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
It seemed to me that not just Garrett, but Judge himself didn't trust Jones. He needed to be "managed".
It's not like the Giants were a heavy run-oriented offense.
You can be both decent at protecting the football and struggle to make big plays.
It's not like the Giants were a heavy run-oriented offense.
You can be both decent at protecting the football and struggle to make big plays.
He became a check down Charlie. He is not challenging defenses. He is afraid to challenge defenses. Afraid to commit turnovers. This is Tyrod Taylor. Doesn't challenge defenses. Unproductive. But no turnovers.
it's a direct correlation.
It's not like the Giants were a heavy run-oriented offense.
You can be both decent at protecting the football and struggle to make big plays.
It's hard to throw INT's when the ball is only going 5 yards past the LOS on a regular basis. I think it was all by design to intentionally not throw INT's. Less risk..less turnovers..but obviously less points/production.
Just hoping (naively) to have some facts presented, opinions supported by facts or at least an honest statement "This is totally my non-expert opinion that Jones ..."
Poor running game.
Receivers that were hurt much of the year most likely without a true number 1. TE's that were hurt or one dimensional and in the role unreliable.
A scheme that most hated.
I don't see anything wrong with his take considering he has been around a lot of QB's. He even coached Vinnie who everyone gave up on and then coached him to a Pro Bowl.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Lets see if he can be an average starter first before elite...He has a long way to go.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
I agree with all of this... but I don't think it works in the current salary cap/rookie contract scale era. Jones is not going to come back on a cheap deal for the Giants: either he's going to get paid like a big-time QB by the Giants, or he's going to be a free agent. There's no allowance for "the Giants sign Jones to a team-friendly extension to be a middle-tier QB." If Jones is playing on a team-friendly contract after 2022 it'll be with someone other than the Giants.
Just hoping (naively) to have some facts presented, opinions supported by facts or at least an honest statement "This is totally my non-expert opinion that Jones ..."
There is no point in posting facts. If you post is statistics it is just the same argument of "he sucks" vs. "he is awesome but the line and WRs suck."
If you bring up something about Jones, it will generally be the same as the other 9,000 discussions about him.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
+1
He's entering the final year of a cap-friendly deal. I think we can all admit that he's not and will not ever be in the upper echelon of NFL QBs. Let's be kind and say his ceiling is somewhere around 12th best.
After 2022 the options are either:
a) Franchise tag him at something north of $30 million
b) Extend him at something like $25-27 million per season
Can you win a Super Bowl between now and 2030 with Daniel Jones making that kind of money to be "pretty good". And that's optimistically assuming he can even reach that level at all, which is still questionable to begin with.
Because if you can't win the Super Bowl with Daniel Jones, there's not a single reason to continue the discussion. Ryan Tannehill, a favorite comp of Jones made by his biggest supporters is NEVER going to win a Super Bowl. EVER.
So what are we even doing here? Daniel Jones is going to play in 2022, and then what? We're going to give him a 5-year, $130 million contract to hopefully win 9 games at some point?
You either have your QB, or you don't. The Bills have their QB. The Chiefs have their QB. The Chargers and Bengals have their QB.
If the plan is to Tannehill your way to the Super Bowl, it's a stupid plan.
Quote:
Where were we on Phil Simms going into the 1982 season?
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
I agree with all of this... but I don't think it works in the current salary cap/rookie contract scale era. Jones is not going to come back on a cheap deal for the Giants: either he's going to get paid like a big-time QB by the Giants, or he's going to be a free agent. There's no allowance for "the Giants sign Jones to a team-friendly extension to be a middle-tier QB." If Jones is playing on a team-friendly contract after 2022 it'll be with someone other than the Giants.
Schoen is not looking to get a bargain. He his looking for a QB that he feels the Giants can win a championship once he corrects the talent deficiencies. There is no middle ground. After 2022, I believe he is looking to the draft but lets play the season. If he sees that in this draft I don't think it will stop him either. No sense tipping his hand at this point.
I always wished Eli was a lower INT kind of guy, and have admired those QB's who could get through a season with 30+ TD's and single-digit INT's. But if I had to choose, I'd much rather Eli get us the 30+ TD's even if it meant another 6-8 INT's. He was able to make many amazing plays because of his aggressiveness and I love him for it.
In other words, 30 TD's and 15 INT's is much more preferable than 15 TD's and 0 INT's, imo. I feel like DJ has been playing to avoid the turnover for so many games that he's behind in his development as a playmaker. Hoping he can get caught back up this year.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
Quote:
In comment 15576391 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
These are related.
He is afraid to throw so turnovers are down, but so is production.
Quote:
In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
Because the offense was reigned in. When they open it up this year it’ll return, maybe on the same level but it’s not going to be pretty
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
+1
These are also bad comparisons.
No one thought manning was a bust after 2006. In 39 career starts he'd thrown 54 touchdowns and 8,000 career yards. No one was pushing Eli out the door. The 2006 team was supposed to make the playoffs.
Josh Allen was vastly improved by year 2. Year 3 was just the point where he became exceptional.
Which is exactly what Mara and Schoen said today that they are going to do
I m in the camp of being pleased with that decision.
You can’t give him a long term big money deal if he’s just average this year, regardless of the situation around him. Jones time as a Giant is done.
Jones is not going to come back on a cheap deal for the Giants: either he's going to get paid like a big-time QB by the Giants, or he's going to be a free agent.
Being a free agent isn't an automatic gold ticket. If he's not good enough for a long-term deal with the Giants, I doubt he's going to get megabucks from anyone. He's likely to be signed as a backup or to a one-year prove it.
I agree, tie the donation campaign to the amount of Jones threads that are started.
Even if Jones has a "good year", do you feel comfortable giving him a longterm extension off that body of work? Keep in mind, there isn't really a middle class with QB contracts.
And since when is giving bad players a "fair shot" a viable strategy?
You want to know a big reason Belichick has been so successful? He scouts to eliminate people. He finds reasons not to draft or sign players, not to hire coaches. He doesn't search for reasons to employ someone.
Don't look for reasons to keep Jones or any other player. Look for reasons to replace them. That's the process that separates the wheat from the chaff.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
At this point, it doesn't matter. He sucks. THAT's all that matters.
You can’t give him a long term big money deal if he’s just average this year, regardless of the situation around him. Jones time as a Giant is done.
Yep on all counts
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction.
Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
There are so many negatives, his not looking off the primary receiver, his fumbles, his never ever completing big passes or making big throws in clutch situations, always being slightly behind a guy or leading him too much but I do think we can give him one more year.
Watching Josh allen sling it, Herbert (who should be a fucking giant) do lead me to believe Jones is not the man but I am also not 100% convinced. On this one I will just go w the flow and whatever Scheon and the new coach think ill gladly accept.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Phil Simms was 40 years ago. Not relevant.
Eli was coming off 2 playoff appearances in his first 2 full seasons. He had his warts, but I think most felt pretty good about him.
Josh Allen definitely struggled as a rookie, as a lot of rookies do. That's not the point, getting better is.
RGIII looked great after a year, and who knows how his career turns out without the knee injury.
Jones has had 37 starts. I get that the situation was far from perfect, but he did little to make a bad situation better. He'll almost certainly have this year to prove it, which is fine, but he should have a solid vet QB in camp to push him.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
It's not his fault he was overdrafted, but he was overdrafted, and the fact that he was chosen 6th is why he's still here despite his performance.
If he was taken in the 3rd round, Justin Herbert would be our QB and Daniel Jones would be his backup and the world would be a much better place.
Giving up 3 consecutive first rounders absolutely sets a franchise back. A single 6th overall pick; not so much.
The key regardless of the round drafted or draft capital expended is number of years it takes to find out if you have the right guy or not. This is clearly the frustration with Daniel Jones. I don't think many would state that Jones has clearly shown he's a franchise QB. Having to wait another year, the 4th, to find out where he lies on the "QB spectrum" is frustrating.
Hopefully we'll find out early in 2022. And given Jones' neck injury and pre-neck injury games missed, a viable back up QB (veteran or 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick) is clearly needed. Boy were we spoiled with Eli's durability.
It’s a message board about the Giants. People are free to discuss what they want and you’re free to not click on it. Are you the BBI police?
The goalpost move was the most predictable thing on this site
So don't.
Giving up 3 consecutive first rounders absolutely sets a franchise back. A single 6th overall pick; not so much.
The key regardless of the round drafted or draft capital expended is number of years it takes to find out if you have the right guy or not. This is clearly the frustration with Daniel Jones. I don't think many would state that Jones has clearly shown he's a franchise QB. Having to wait another year, the 4th, to find out where he lies on the "QB spectrum" is frustrating.
Hopefully we'll find out early in 2022. And given Jones' neck injury and pre-neck injury games missed, a viable back up QB (veteran or 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick) is clearly needed. Boy were we spoiled with Eli's durability.
The problem is you waste time figuring out whether he's "the answer, so if he isn't you've wasted a lot of time, and if he is you've used up the low cap time you have to build around him. I hope he turns out to be the answer and justifies a big contract. Will he? Who knows?
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
LOL....why was Eric using "The Quarterback" rather than "Manning" in the writeup?
I was at that game, and was pretty ticked that we were throwing our season away (who knew!?)
Quote:
Where were we on Phil Simms going into the 1982 season?
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
+1
On this site, saying "it's too soon to tell" rather than "Jones sucks" will make us "Jones defenders."
Giving up 3 consecutive first rounders absolutely sets a franchise back. A single 6th overall pick; not so much.
The key regardless of the round drafted or draft capital expended is number of years it takes to find out if you have the right guy or not. This is clearly the frustration with Daniel Jones. I don't think many would state that Jones has clearly shown he's a franchise QB. Having to wait another year, the 4th, to find out where he lies on the "QB spectrum" is frustrating.
Hopefully we'll find out early in 2022. And given Jones' neck injury and pre-neck injury games missed, a viable back up QB (veteran or 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick) is clearly needed. Boy were we spoiled with Eli's durability.
I agree with the 6th pick thing, it's a sunk cost at this point. If the Giants are going into next season with Jones as the presumed starter (I'd say that is likely, but not a slam dunk), then they have to bring in a viable backup. Yes, to be there if Jones gets hurt, but to also push him in camp, on the field and in the film room. If that vet beats him out, how can anyone say that he didn't get a fair shot?
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
It appears Eric didn’t write that review.
Quote:
That is not my recollection. After Eli's terrible mid 2007 season game versus Minnesota (3 pick 6s if I recall), many were ready to give up on him.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
LOL....why was Eric using "The Quarterback" rather than "Manning" in the writeup?
I was at that game, and was pretty ticked that we were throwing our season away (who knew!?)
I may be wrong but wasn’t “The Quarterback” how Carl referred to Eli before he won a super bowl?
Quote:
In comment 15576538 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
That is not my recollection. After Eli's terrible mid 2007 season game versus Minnesota (3 pick 6s if I recall), many were ready to give up on him.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
LOL....why was Eric using "The Quarterback" rather than "Manning" in the writeup?
I was at that game, and was pretty ticked that we were throwing our season away (who knew!?)
I may be wrong but wasn’t “The Quarterback” how Carl referred to Eli before he won a super bowl?
Carl on the radio call
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Quote:
Wasn't last year his "prove it" year? Was it not an epic failure?
The goalpost move was the most predictable thing on this site
So Eric, do you recall how you felt about Eli after that game?
I'll admit "bust / not a franchise QB" was what I was thinking.
If you don't know by the end of year two, you probably don't have a quarterback. That's just the reality of the current era since the modern CBA was put in place in 2011.
I don't know what it is about Jones that gets people to cling to him like this. What has he done right that Evan Engram, Will Hernandez, or any other maligned Giants did wrong?
Jones got the "prove it" that he hadn't earned. He used it to continue to prove that he stinks.
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
If you don't know by the end of year two, you probably don't have a quarterback. That's just the reality of the current era since the modern CBA was put in place in 2011.
I don't know what it is about Jones that gets people to cling to him like this. What has he done right that Evan Engram, Will Hernandez, or any other maligned Giants did wrong?
Jones got the "prove it" that he hadn't earned. He used it to continue to prove that he stinks.
The funny thing is Jones deserve the same vitriol Engram gets. He’s just as bad.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
There would be no 5th year option to worry about, but I also doubt he's still a starter as a 3rd RD pick. His draft position is the only reason for his otherwise undeserved scholarship
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
Foles won that Super Bowl off an elite stretch of play. He completed 73% of his passes for 320 yards a game and 2 TDs. It’s rare for just a good QB to put together that stretch of games especially in the playoffs. Foles is the exception not the rule.
And I think some of you guys ignore some of the negative stuff Sy has put in his game reviews about Jones processing.
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
"Maybe he can be a good QB" is such a low standard.
So Eric, do you recall how you felt about Eli after that game?
I'll admit "bust / not a franchise QB" was what I was thinking.
I wasn't happy. I do know I threw around the "bust" word after his rookie season game against the Ravens when he literally had a 0.0 QBR.
During the 2007 playoff run, I kept harping on the dramatic turnaround of two players: Eli Manning and Corey Webster. It was astounding when you think of it how good they both got after kind of being written off.
Quote:
that I sometimes wonder about in regards to DJ. Is BBI more pissed about his ability, or the fact that he was the 6th pick?
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
There would be no 5th year option to worry about, but I also doubt he's still a starter as a 3rd RD pick. His draft position is the only reason for his otherwise undeserved scholarship
No, the vitriol would be far less, but, it's also possible that as a 3rd RD prospect, the Giants may have moved on.
Unless something amazing happens...I expect DJ to be a placeholder. To my eye, he lacks "dog" mentality. He hesitates. I don't think that that can change.
As a fan, I have moved on from his draft slot because it is no longer relevant. There's a solid chance DJ would have screwed up the 6th pick with another guy anyway.
The Giants new GM seems to be a good one.
Giddy Up!
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Remember Eli’s 4 INT debacle vs the Vikings during the 2007 season? People wanted him benched then.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
That's a bad game in 2007, one of the worst of his career, and he had everal bad games by late 2007 which is where people started to get really frustrated. No one was saying Eli didn't deserve to play any more before that stretch. He'd had many productive games already. The problem was the interceptions. By that point he was good enough to direct the offense to two playoff appearances.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
That's a bad game in 2007, one of the worst of his career, and he had everal bad games by late 2007 which is where people started to get really frustrated. No one was saying Eli didn't deserve to play any more before that stretch. He'd had many productive games already. The problem was the interceptions. By that point he was good enough to direct the offense to two playoff appearances.
Also, there were much higher expectations for Eli, hence the criticism and frustration.
No one expected much from Jones, and he hasn't raised that bar.
We aren’t getting anyone better for next year anyway.
Quote:
But a good QB with the right pieces around him can go to and win a Superbowl. Proven just recently by Nick Foles.
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
"Maybe he can be a good QB" is such a low standard.
yes it is a low standard..
But it is an even worse operating principle. A disastrous operating principle.
It's not how you run a $5B organization. And I am sorry but Schoen is starting to feel like a stuffed shirt bureaucrat.
The issue is to advance you will need that much of a better team around them. Hard to put together a outstanding team all around. Then you have injuries. Playoffs are a different animal where teams get close in talent and it’s where you need that big game QB.
Foles was a unique situation. He had a really good team and the NFC playoffs didn’t have a great challenge. They faced Shurmer and Ponder in the NFCCG. Then BB was fighting with Kraft. Almost like BP and Kraft before the SB.
Over the weekend we saw Ryan Tannehill, a player at a level Jones can barely aspire to reaching, look like an absolutely liability to his team in a big playoff game. The goal here is to win a championship, right? What are we even talking about? It’s over.
I didn't take that as nothing.
Very few in those 3 years (mostly in his first year).
IMHO there is enough of a chance that Jones could be a decent starter to not dump him for a late round pick as soon as the trading period reopens as I think some would like to do.
But the Giants clearly need a solid "Plan B" at QB, whether by a decent quality vet backup (with starter potential) and / or at least a mid round QB in the draft.
Jones could be out of football tomorrow due to medical concerns.
Very few in those 3 years (mostly in his first year).
Burrow got sacked technically 11 times, while having to call his own plays at times, and still beat the #1 seed on the road. He’s played half the amount of games as Jones. Stop with the excuses it’s embarrassing.
The real question with Jones is whether he can process and read defenses quickly enough at this level. There are plays where he has enough time to throw and still doesn't do so. But that may at least to some extent be because he doesn't trust his OL to ever give him more than two or three seconds to throw. So even when he has more time to do so, he gets rid of the ball after one or two reads. He had the same problem at Duke because his OL was also poor. His WRs also dropped the most or second most passes of any WRs in college football that year.
The problem is that there are still too many mind boggling throws from Jones even when he does make the correct read. He also looks like a guy who needs nearly everything around him to be almost perfect to succeed. Great QBs succeed even when everything is falling apart.
The whole debate though is likely moot for 2022. Jones will have better competition, but will likely start this year. As long as the Giants don't pick up his fifth year option, I'm fine with that decision.
When has he had anything that even resembled competent around him?
Other than our LT in the last 2 seasons we have some of the worst football players in the NFL on offense.
When has he had anything that even resembled competent around him?
Other than our LT in the last 2 seasons we have some of the worst football players in the NFL on offense.
Just keep asking the question: How did the offense look without him the last 6 games??? Watch them shit their pants...
Quote:
We know what everyone’s opinion here is on Daniel Jones. Basically every poster has given up on him. There’s zero need to keep discussing it.
It’s a message board about the Giants. People are free to discuss what they want and you’re free to not click on it. Are you the BBI police?
This coming from the clown who falsely called out a poster who had inside info from the Buffalo side, claiming the poster read the info on Twitter and made up that he had inside information
But I will defend ajr's inalienable right to post the same stupid and wrong opinion on Daniel Jones 500 times per day
But many here go way overboard in their criticism.
My own hunch is that he has the potential, with a good OL and supporting cast around him, to be a solid, middle-of-the-road NFL QB.
Is he the long-term answer? I have my doubts. But unless someone better falls into our lap, what is another practical, realistic option?
To me, the jury remains out.
He's entering the final year of a cap-friendly deal. I think we can all admit that he's not and will not ever be in the upper echelon of NFL QBs. Let's be kind and say his ceiling is somewhere around 12th best.
After 2022 the options are either:
a) Franchise tag him at something north of $30 million
b) Extend him at something like $25-27 million per season
Can you win a Super Bowl between now and 2030 with Daniel Jones making that kind of money to be "pretty good". And that's optimistically assuming he can even reach that level at all, which is still questionable to begin with.
Because if you can't win the Super Bowl with Daniel Jones, there's not a single reason to continue the discussion. Ryan Tannehill, a favorite comp of Jones made by his biggest supporters is NEVER going to win a Super Bowl. EVER.
So what are we even doing here? Daniel Jones is going to play in 2022, and then what? We're going to give him a 5-year, $130 million contract to hopefully win 9 games at some point?
You either have your QB, or you don't. The Bills have their QB. The Chiefs have their QB. The Chargers and Bengals have their QB.
If the plan is to Tannehill your way to the Super Bowl, it's a stupid plan.
Tend to agree. Jones will almost certainly play better with a better OL and skill position players, but his ceiling likely isn't good enough to win a SB. Burrow, Allen, and Mahomes again reminded us that you usually need a great QB to do so.
After 35 games:
52% completions
39 TDs
42 ints
I’ve seen enough, time to move on!
Quote:
you don't have anything.
After 35 games:
52% completions
39 TDs
42 ints
I’ve seen enough, time to move on!
If this is a quarterback who played before 2011 (I'm guessing it's Simms but who knows) the comparison is irrelevant.
Quote:
In comment 15576451 Go Terps said:
Quote:
you don't have anything.
After 35 games:
52% completions
39 TDs
42 ints
I’ve seen enough, time to move on!
If this is a quarterback who played before 2011 (I'm guessing it's Simms but who knows) the comparison is irrelevant.
It is Simms! Great catch my friend, I’m impressed. Daniel’s comparison:
38 games
62.5% completion
45 tds
29 ints
Multiple HCs and OCs
World wide pandemic
Why irrelevant? The book on DJ is still incomplete.
I hope we bring competition in while still giving him a shot to put it all together with an “average” Oline and skill players that can stay healthy.
That's not life in the modern NFL. Daniel Jones is about to get way more expensive than his level of play merits, and that's going to impact how the Giants build the rest of the roster.
Any comparison to a quarterback playing before 2011 might as well be a comparison to Babe Ruth. It doesn't make sense.
Forget Giants history. Clinging to history is why the Giants are terrible. Look at Jones's peers. That KC-Buffalo game the other night - you can't bring Daniel Jones to that type of gunfight at any cost, let alone at $20M+.
And as someone that grew up idolizing Simms, Jones isn't a stain in Simms's underwear as a quarterback.
I respect your opinion, but at this point, until we see something different, the new regime is moving forward in giving him a shot. I think it’s the right move but we’ll see. I’m 48, seen it all with the Giants “Since1976.” Season ticket holder, angry, tired of what we’ve put on the field for the last 8 years. But hopeful for the new regime. Or opinions are just that, but we’ll get to see it play out this summer and fall and can revisit who was right a year from now. More than anything, I want to see progress and improvement and that includes a lot of areas other than, but including the QB play.
Quote:
In comment 15576534 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
We know what everyone’s opinion here is on Daniel Jones. Basically every poster has given up on him. There’s zero need to keep discussing it.
It’s a message board about the Giants. People are free to discuss what they want and you’re free to not click on it. Are you the BBI police?
This coming from the clown who falsely called out a poster who had inside info from the Buffalo side, claiming the poster read the info on Twitter and made up that he had inside information
But I will defend ajr's inalienable right to post the same stupid and wrong opinion on Daniel Jones 500 times per day
It really bothers you I pointed out someone was saying something that was all over Twitter for an entire day? Get a life.
Quote:
In comment 15576562 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15576534 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
We know what everyone’s opinion here is on Daniel Jones. Basically every poster has given up on him. There’s zero need to keep discussing it.
It’s a message board about the Giants. People are free to discuss what they want and you’re free to not click on it. Are you the BBI police?
This coming from the clown who falsely called out a poster who had inside info from the Buffalo side, claiming the poster read the info on Twitter and made up that he had inside information
But I will defend ajr's inalienable right to post the same stupid and wrong opinion on Daniel Jones 500 times per day
It really bothers you I pointed out someone was saying something that was all over Twitter for an entire day? Get a life.
That's not what you did. You flat out called him a liar.
Don’t pass off tweets as
ajr2456 : 1/24/2022 8:37 pm : link : reply
Inside info
And it wasnt on twitter all day, it was one tweet from one person
Appropriate call-out in my view.
Good idea to change subject though.
Good idea to change subject though.
If someone is going to post something basically word for what was posted on Twitter as inside info, I’ll say I’m skeptical if they’re legit or not. People have called me a liar and that I don’t have sources, I don’t follow them around for two days.
And you two definitely are the same poster, it’s just a question of what your previous handle was before you made a new one in January 2022
Quote:
But no, U wrong.
Good idea to change subject though.
If someone is going to post something basically word for what was posted on Twitter as inside info, I’ll say I’m skeptical if they’re legit or not. People have called me a liar and that I don’t have sources, I don’t follow them around for two days.
And you two definitely are the same poster, it’s just a question of what your previous handle was before you made a new one in January 2022
Accusing someone of trying to pass off twitter info as their own is in a whole different world than saying, "I'm skeptical".
Your inability to own a simple mistake is amazingly similar to the Giants front office not wanting or willing to admit their mistakes over the years.
Good philosophy.
Stay wrong though, fits you well.
Quote:
In comment 15577543 Slowasski said:
Quote:
But no, U wrong.
Good idea to change subject though.
If someone is going to post something basically word for what was posted on Twitter as inside info, I’ll say I’m skeptical if they’re legit or not. People have called me a liar and that I don’t have sources, I don’t follow them around for two days.
And you two definitely are the same poster, it’s just a question of what your previous handle was before you made a new one in January 2022
Accusing someone of trying to pass off twitter info as their own is in a whole different world than saying, "I'm skeptical".
Your inability to own a simple mistake is amazingly similar to the Giants front office not wanting or willing to admit their mistakes over the years.
Good philosophy.
Stay wrong though, fits you well.
You’re weird and a loser.
I still think they were passing of something they saw on Twitter as inside info. Let’s see if the inside info comes to fruition.
Quote:
In comment 15577230 Since1976 said:
Quote:
In comment 15576451 Go Terps said:
Quote:
you don't have anything.
After 35 games:
52% completions
39 TDs
42 ints
I’ve seen enough, time to move on!
If this is a quarterback who played before 2011 (I'm guessing it's Simms but who knows) the comparison is irrelevant.
It is Simms! Great catch my friend, I’m impressed. Daniel’s comparison:
38 games
62.5% completion
45 tds
29 ints
Multiple HCs and OCs
World wide pandemic
Why irrelevant? The book on DJ is still incomplete.
I hope we bring competition in while still giving him a shot to put it all together with an “average” Oline and skill players that can stay healthy.
Simms played 40 years ago, that's why it's irrelevant. No CBA, not 5th year option questions, DB's allowed to bang on WR's downfield, DL allowed to beat the crap out of QB's.
Comparing Jones to Simms is akin to comparing Simms to Tuffy Leemans, who threw for 55 yards and 7 TD's in 1942. See how ridiculous that sounds?
Quote:
But no, U wrong.
Good idea to change subject though.
If someone is going to post something basically word for what was posted on Twitter as inside info, I’ll say I’m skeptical if they’re legit or not. People have called me a liar and that I don’t have sources, I don’t follow them around for two days.
And you two definitely are the same poster, it’s just a question of what your previous handle was before you made a new one in January 2022
Guess again. I've been here since the early 2000s
I dont doubt you have a buddy who works for an agent, and we appreciate the info. But dont call someone a liar for having their own inside source
You should really just stick to giving us that inside info. Your opinions really aren't good
Quote:
In comment 15577543 Slowasski said:
Quote:
But no, U wrong.
Good idea to change subject though.
If someone is going to post something basically word for what was posted on Twitter as inside info, I’ll say I’m skeptical if they’re legit or not. People have called me a liar and that I don’t have sources, I don’t follow them around for two days.
And you two definitely are the same poster, it’s just a question of what your previous handle was before you made a new one in January 2022
Guess again. I've been here since the early 2000s
I dont doubt you have a buddy who works for an agent, and we appreciate the info. But dont call someone a liar for having their own inside source
You should really just stick to giving us that inside info. Your opinions really aren't good
So what was your previous handle then? Since you made a new account this month?
You were wrong about the calling that poster a liar, and you're wrong about this. Like most of your opinions, you're wrong
If you were inactive for long enough to have to make a new account, how do you know so much about my opinions?
Like all of your opinions, you're wrong