I was driving to an appointment and briefly got to listen to NFL radio around 11:15 Eastern time this morning; first chance to post.
Essentially what Weis said (I couldn't jot down his exact words as I was driving) as I recall was:
| "...can't give Daniel Jones a "letter grade" yet, rather any grade on Jones must be an "Incomplete" (which is disappointing since 2021 was going to be the year to get that grade / assessment). Weis further acknowledged that some people already feel Jones is a bust, while others already feel he's shown enough in spite of the lack of support around him, to feel pretty good about Jones going forward. Weis isn't in either of those two camps right now." |
My naive hope is to just report Weis' opinion (which I agree with), rather than start another Daniel Jones pro / con mud slinging thread.
More than his fumbles and picks?
What's the old record? :)
and the exact same things will be said again and again and again and again in every single thread
Compared to this season which was widely known as the "Decision"? I think we are so broken and the expectations and narrative on how close we are are so low across the board now I actually think the reverse. He becomes another problem on the long list of problems rather then the focal point he was this past season as we thought we had everything else in place.
Which is exactly what Mara and Schoen said today that they are going to do
The one habit he needs to kick is eyeing down that first read. He was a first read QB coming out of Duke and the type of system Cutcliffe ran.
Whoever the coach ends up being, there will be a new staff, new coaches and coordinators. I am not ready to write him off just yet.
Yeah, this is the problem. You can't wait longer than 4 years for a QB to emerge as top notch before you need to move on because of the salary structure. Jones has gotten a raw deal, but that's the way it goes.
???
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on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
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In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
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on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
I suspect there's a correlation between the turnover reduction and the TD reduction: he's played more conservatively, and it's showing up in the statline. There might not be a good equilibrium for Jones in terms of TDs versus turnovers.
But I believe Mara/Schoen/new HC have a lot of good reasons why they may draft another QB in Round One.
If nothing else, how about competition at the QB position, not to mention a legit backup in case Daniel Jones goes down again.
One mo’ time:
#5 Matt Corral
#7 Best remaining OL
Which is exactly what Mara and Schoen said today that they are going to do
Agreed..
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In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
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on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
These are related.
He is afraid to throw so turnovers are down, but so is production.
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In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
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on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
It seemed to me that not just Garrett, but Judge himself didn't trust Jones. He needed to be "managed".
It's not like the Giants were a heavy run-oriented offense.
You can be both decent at protecting the football and struggle to make big plays.
It's not like the Giants were a heavy run-oriented offense.
You can be both decent at protecting the football and struggle to make big plays.
He became a check down Charlie. He is not challenging defenses. He is afraid to challenge defenses. Afraid to commit turnovers. This is Tyrod Taylor. Doesn't challenge defenses. Unproductive. But no turnovers.
it's a direct correlation.
It's not like the Giants were a heavy run-oriented offense.
You can be both decent at protecting the football and struggle to make big plays.
It's hard to throw INT's when the ball is only going 5 yards past the LOS on a regular basis. I think it was all by design to intentionally not throw INT's. Less risk..less turnovers..but obviously less points/production.
Just hoping (naively) to have some facts presented, opinions supported by facts or at least an honest statement "This is totally my non-expert opinion that Jones ..."
Poor running game.
Receivers that were hurt much of the year most likely without a true number 1. TE's that were hurt or one dimensional and in the role unreliable.
A scheme that most hated.
I don't see anything wrong with his take considering he has been around a lot of QB's. He even coached Vinnie who everyone gave up on and then coached him to a Pro Bowl.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Lets see if he can be an average starter first before elite...He has a long way to go.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
I agree with all of this... but I don't think it works in the current salary cap/rookie contract scale era. Jones is not going to come back on a cheap deal for the Giants: either he's going to get paid like a big-time QB by the Giants, or he's going to be a free agent. There's no allowance for "the Giants sign Jones to a team-friendly extension to be a middle-tier QB." If Jones is playing on a team-friendly contract after 2022 it'll be with someone other than the Giants.
Just hoping (naively) to have some facts presented, opinions supported by facts or at least an honest statement "This is totally my non-expert opinion that Jones ..."
There is no point in posting facts. If you post is statistics it is just the same argument of "he sucks" vs. "he is awesome but the line and WRs suck."
If you bring up something about Jones, it will generally be the same as the other 9,000 discussions about him.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
+1
He's entering the final year of a cap-friendly deal. I think we can all admit that he's not and will not ever be in the upper echelon of NFL QBs. Let's be kind and say his ceiling is somewhere around 12th best.
After 2022 the options are either:
a) Franchise tag him at something north of $30 million
b) Extend him at something like $25-27 million per season
Can you win a Super Bowl between now and 2030 with Daniel Jones making that kind of money to be "pretty good". And that's optimistically assuming he can even reach that level at all, which is still questionable to begin with.
Because if you can't win the Super Bowl with Daniel Jones, there's not a single reason to continue the discussion. Ryan Tannehill, a favorite comp of Jones made by his biggest supporters is NEVER going to win a Super Bowl. EVER.
So what are we even doing here? Daniel Jones is going to play in 2022, and then what? We're going to give him a 5-year, $130 million contract to hopefully win 9 games at some point?
You either have your QB, or you don't. The Bills have their QB. The Chiefs have their QB. The Chargers and Bengals have their QB.
If the plan is to Tannehill your way to the Super Bowl, it's a stupid plan.
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Where were we on Phil Simms going into the 1982 season?
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
I agree with all of this... but I don't think it works in the current salary cap/rookie contract scale era. Jones is not going to come back on a cheap deal for the Giants: either he's going to get paid like a big-time QB by the Giants, or he's going to be a free agent. There's no allowance for "the Giants sign Jones to a team-friendly extension to be a middle-tier QB." If Jones is playing on a team-friendly contract after 2022 it'll be with someone other than the Giants.
Schoen is not looking to get a bargain. He his looking for a QB that he feels the Giants can win a championship once he corrects the talent deficiencies. There is no middle ground. After 2022, I believe he is looking to the draft but lets play the season. If he sees that in this draft I don't think it will stop him either. No sense tipping his hand at this point.
I always wished Eli was a lower INT kind of guy, and have admired those QB's who could get through a season with 30+ TD's and single-digit INT's. But if I had to choose, I'd much rather Eli get us the 30+ TD's even if it meant another 6-8 INT's. He was able to make many amazing plays because of his aggressiveness and I love him for it.
In other words, 30 TD's and 15 INT's is much more preferable than 15 TD's and 0 INT's, imo. I feel like DJ has been playing to avoid the turnover for so many games that he's behind in his development as a playmaker. Hoping he can get caught back up this year.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
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In comment 15576391 Jints in Carolina said:
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In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
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on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
These are related.
He is afraid to throw so turnovers are down, but so is production.
Quote:
In comment 15576389 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on record now as saying Daniel Jones threads will set a record this offseason.
More than his fumbles and picks?
Actually, one of the myths about Jones is that he is still a turnover machine. He hasn't been for some time. He had one really bad game this year but his fumbles are way down and he has never been a high INT guy.
His biggest problem is he hasn't thrown TDs since his rookie year.
Because the offense was reigned in. When they open it up this year it’ll return, maybe on the same level but it’s not going to be pretty
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
+1
These are also bad comparisons.
No one thought manning was a bust after 2006. In 39 career starts he'd thrown 54 touchdowns and 8,000 career yards. No one was pushing Eli out the door. The 2006 team was supposed to make the playoffs.
Josh Allen was vastly improved by year 2. Year 3 was just the point where he became exceptional.
Which is exactly what Mara and Schoen said today that they are going to do
I m in the camp of being pleased with that decision.
You can’t give him a long term big money deal if he’s just average this year, regardless of the situation around him. Jones time as a Giant is done.
Jones is not going to come back on a cheap deal for the Giants: either he's going to get paid like a big-time QB by the Giants, or he's going to be a free agent.
Being a free agent isn't an automatic gold ticket. If he's not good enough for a long-term deal with the Giants, I doubt he's going to get megabucks from anyone. He's likely to be signed as a backup or to a one-year prove it.
I agree, tie the donation campaign to the amount of Jones threads that are started.
Even if Jones has a "good year", do you feel comfortable giving him a longterm extension off that body of work? Keep in mind, there isn't really a middle class with QB contracts.