I was driving to an appointment and briefly got to listen to NFL radio around 11:15 Eastern time this morning; first chance to post.
Essentially what Weis said (I couldn't jot down his exact words as I was driving) as I recall was:
| "...can't give Daniel Jones a "letter grade" yet, rather any grade on Jones must be an "Incomplete" (which is disappointing since 2021 was going to be the year to get that grade / assessment). Weis further acknowledged that some people already feel Jones is a bust, while others already feel he's shown enough in spite of the lack of support around him, to feel pretty good about Jones going forward. Weis isn't in either of those two camps right now." |
My naive hope is to just report Weis' opinion (which I agree with), rather than start another Daniel Jones pro / con mud slinging thread.
And since when is giving bad players a "fair shot" a viable strategy?
You want to know a big reason Belichick has been so successful? He scouts to eliminate people. He finds reasons not to draft or sign players, not to hire coaches. He doesn't search for reasons to employ someone.
Don't look for reasons to keep Jones or any other player. Look for reasons to replace them. That's the process that separates the wheat from the chaff.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
At this point, it doesn't matter. He sucks. THAT's all that matters.
You can’t give him a long term big money deal if he’s just average this year, regardless of the situation around him. Jones time as a Giant is done.
Yep on all counts
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction.
Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
There are so many negatives, his not looking off the primary receiver, his fumbles, his never ever completing big passes or making big throws in clutch situations, always being slightly behind a guy or leading him too much but I do think we can give him one more year.
Watching Josh allen sling it, Herbert (who should be a fucking giant) do lead me to believe Jones is not the man but I am also not 100% convinced. On this one I will just go w the flow and whatever Scheon and the new coach think ill gladly accept.
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Phil Simms was 40 years ago. Not relevant.
Eli was coming off 2 playoff appearances in his first 2 full seasons. He had his warts, but I think most felt pretty good about him.
Josh Allen definitely struggled as a rookie, as a lot of rookies do. That's not the point, getting better is.
RGIII looked great after a year, and who knows how his career turns out without the knee injury.
Jones has had 37 starts. I get that the situation was far from perfect, but he did little to make a bad situation better. He'll almost certainly have this year to prove it, which is fine, but he should have a solid vet QB in camp to push him.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
It's not his fault he was overdrafted, but he was overdrafted, and the fact that he was chosen 6th is why he's still here despite his performance.
If he was taken in the 3rd round, Justin Herbert would be our QB and Daniel Jones would be his backup and the world would be a much better place.
Giving up 3 consecutive first rounders absolutely sets a franchise back. A single 6th overall pick; not so much.
The key regardless of the round drafted or draft capital expended is number of years it takes to find out if you have the right guy or not. This is clearly the frustration with Daniel Jones. I don't think many would state that Jones has clearly shown he's a franchise QB. Having to wait another year, the 4th, to find out where he lies on the "QB spectrum" is frustrating.
Hopefully we'll find out early in 2022. And given Jones' neck injury and pre-neck injury games missed, a viable back up QB (veteran or 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick) is clearly needed. Boy were we spoiled with Eli's durability.
It’s a message board about the Giants. People are free to discuss what they want and you’re free to not click on it. Are you the BBI police?
The goalpost move was the most predictable thing on this site
So don't.
Giving up 3 consecutive first rounders absolutely sets a franchise back. A single 6th overall pick; not so much.
The key regardless of the round drafted or draft capital expended is number of years it takes to find out if you have the right guy or not. This is clearly the frustration with Daniel Jones. I don't think many would state that Jones has clearly shown he's a franchise QB. Having to wait another year, the 4th, to find out where he lies on the "QB spectrum" is frustrating.
Hopefully we'll find out early in 2022. And given Jones' neck injury and pre-neck injury games missed, a viable back up QB (veteran or 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick) is clearly needed. Boy were we spoiled with Eli's durability.
The problem is you waste time figuring out whether he's "the answer, so if he isn't you've wasted a lot of time, and if he is you've used up the low cap time you have to build around him. I hope he turns out to be the answer and justifies a big contract. Will he? Who knows?
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
LOL....why was Eric using "The Quarterback" rather than "Manning" in the writeup?
I was at that game, and was pretty ticked that we were throwing our season away (who knew!?)
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Where were we on Phil Simms going into the 1982 season?
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
+1
On this site, saying "it's too soon to tell" rather than "Jones sucks" will make us "Jones defenders."
Giving up 3 consecutive first rounders absolutely sets a franchise back. A single 6th overall pick; not so much.
The key regardless of the round drafted or draft capital expended is number of years it takes to find out if you have the right guy or not. This is clearly the frustration with Daniel Jones. I don't think many would state that Jones has clearly shown he's a franchise QB. Having to wait another year, the 4th, to find out where he lies on the "QB spectrum" is frustrating.
Hopefully we'll find out early in 2022. And given Jones' neck injury and pre-neck injury games missed, a viable back up QB (veteran or 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick) is clearly needed. Boy were we spoiled with Eli's durability.
I agree with the 6th pick thing, it's a sunk cost at this point. If the Giants are going into next season with Jones as the presumed starter (I'd say that is likely, but not a slam dunk), then they have to bring in a viable backup. Yes, to be there if Jones gets hurt, but to also push him in camp, on the field and in the film room. If that vet beats him out, how can anyone say that he didn't get a fair shot?
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
It appears Eric didn’t write that review.
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That is not my recollection. After Eli's terrible mid 2007 season game versus Minnesota (3 pick 6s if I recall), many were ready to give up on him.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
LOL....why was Eric using "The Quarterback" rather than "Manning" in the writeup?
I was at that game, and was pretty ticked that we were throwing our season away (who knew!?)
I may be wrong but wasn’t “The Quarterback” how Carl referred to Eli before he won a super bowl?
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In comment 15576538 Trainmaster said:
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That is not my recollection. After Eli's terrible mid 2007 season game versus Minnesota (3 pick 6s if I recall), many were ready to give up on him.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
LOL....why was Eric using "The Quarterback" rather than "Manning" in the writeup?
I was at that game, and was pretty ticked that we were throwing our season away (who knew!?)
I may be wrong but wasn’t “The Quarterback” how Carl referred to Eli before he won a super bowl?
Carl on the radio call
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
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Wasn't last year his "prove it" year? Was it not an epic failure?
The goalpost move was the most predictable thing on this site
So Eric, do you recall how you felt about Eli after that game?
I'll admit "bust / not a franchise QB" was what I was thinking.
If you don't know by the end of year two, you probably don't have a quarterback. That's just the reality of the current era since the modern CBA was put in place in 2011.
I don't know what it is about Jones that gets people to cling to him like this. What has he done right that Evan Engram, Will Hernandez, or any other maligned Giants did wrong?
Jones got the "prove it" that he hadn't earned. He used it to continue to prove that he stinks.
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
If you don't know by the end of year two, you probably don't have a quarterback. That's just the reality of the current era since the modern CBA was put in place in 2011.
I don't know what it is about Jones that gets people to cling to him like this. What has he done right that Evan Engram, Will Hernandez, or any other maligned Giants did wrong?
Jones got the "prove it" that he hadn't earned. He used it to continue to prove that he stinks.
The funny thing is Jones deserve the same vitriol Engram gets. He’s just as bad.
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
There would be no 5th year option to worry about, but I also doubt he's still a starter as a 3rd RD pick. His draft position is the only reason for his otherwise undeserved scholarship
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
Foles won that Super Bowl off an elite stretch of play. He completed 73% of his passes for 320 yards a game and 2 TDs. It’s rare for just a good QB to put together that stretch of games especially in the playoffs. Foles is the exception not the rule.
And I think some of you guys ignore some of the negative stuff Sy has put in his game reviews about Jones processing.
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
"Maybe he can be a good QB" is such a low standard.
So Eric, do you recall how you felt about Eli after that game?
I'll admit "bust / not a franchise QB" was what I was thinking.
I wasn't happy. I do know I threw around the "bust" word after his rookie season game against the Ravens when he literally had a 0.0 QBR.
During the 2007 playoff run, I kept harping on the dramatic turnaround of two players: Eli Manning and Corey Webster. It was astounding when you think of it how good they both got after kind of being written off.
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that I sometimes wonder about in regards to DJ. Is BBI more pissed about his ability, or the fact that he was the 6th pick?
Would the vitriol still be as pronounced if he'd been taken in the 3rd round? Because, what I'm getting from all the rage threads is people are practically blaming him for being #6.
There would be no 5th year option to worry about, but I also doubt he's still a starter as a 3rd RD pick. His draft position is the only reason for his otherwise undeserved scholarship
No, the vitriol would be far less, but, it's also possible that as a 3rd RD prospect, the Giants may have moved on.
Unless something amazing happens...I expect DJ to be a placeholder. To my eye, he lacks "dog" mentality. He hesitates. I don't think that that can change.
As a fan, I have moved on from his draft slot because it is no longer relevant. There's a solid chance DJ would have screwed up the 6th pick with another guy anyway.
The Giants new GM seems to be a good one.
Giddy Up!
Where were we on Eli going into the 2007 season?
Sometimes it's very obvious after a full year played (see Mahomes as a positive example, Haskins as a negative one).
Josh Allen didn't look great after a full year.
RGIII looked pretty good after a full year.
With Jones, it's not the years. It's the number of games with some semblance of a supporting cast around him. Jones probably has about a 1.5 years of "real data". And that 1.5 years is an "Incomplete" to many folks.
Remember Eli’s 4 INT debacle vs the Vikings during the 2007 season? People wanted him benched then.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
That's a bad game in 2007, one of the worst of his career, and he had everal bad games by late 2007 which is where people started to get really frustrated. No one was saying Eli didn't deserve to play any more before that stretch. He'd had many productive games already. The problem was the interceptions. By that point he was good enough to direct the offense to two playoff appearances.
To his credit, Eric in the game review was a lot more measured in his reaction. Game Review: Minnesota Vikings at New York Giants, November 25, 2007 - ( New Window )
That's a bad game in 2007, one of the worst of his career, and he had everal bad games by late 2007 which is where people started to get really frustrated. No one was saying Eli didn't deserve to play any more before that stretch. He'd had many productive games already. The problem was the interceptions. By that point he was good enough to direct the offense to two playoff appearances.
Also, there were much higher expectations for Eli, hence the criticism and frustration.
No one expected much from Jones, and he hasn't raised that bar.
We aren’t getting anyone better for next year anyway.
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But a good QB with the right pieces around him can go to and win a Superbowl. Proven just recently by Nick Foles.
DJ is never (probably) going to be an elite QB. But maybe he can be a good QB. DJ was 4-7 as a starter this season. He was not the reason the Giants lost the majority of those games. Go read Sy'56's reviews. DJ's main problem is availability.
Whatever decision Shoen and his coaching staff make regarding DJ is fine with me. Personally, I hope they bring in competition for DJ in training camp. Let the chips fall where they may.
"Maybe he can be a good QB" is such a low standard.
yes it is a low standard..
But it is an even worse operating principle. A disastrous operating principle.
It's not how you run a $5B organization. And I am sorry but Schoen is starting to feel like a stuffed shirt bureaucrat.
The issue is to advance you will need that much of a better team around them. Hard to put together a outstanding team all around. Then you have injuries. Playoffs are a different animal where teams get close in talent and it’s where you need that big game QB.
Foles was a unique situation. He had a really good team and the NFC playoffs didn’t have a great challenge. They faced Shurmer and Ponder in the NFCCG. Then BB was fighting with Kraft. Almost like BP and Kraft before the SB.
Over the weekend we saw Ryan Tannehill, a player at a level Jones can barely aspire to reaching, look like an absolutely liability to his team in a big playoff game. The goal here is to win a championship, right? What are we even talking about? It’s over.
I didn't take that as nothing.
Very few in those 3 years (mostly in his first year).
IMHO there is enough of a chance that Jones could be a decent starter to not dump him for a late round pick as soon as the trading period reopens as I think some would like to do.
But the Giants clearly need a solid "Plan B" at QB, whether by a decent quality vet backup (with starter potential) and / or at least a mid round QB in the draft.
Jones could be out of football tomorrow due to medical concerns.
Very few in those 3 years (mostly in his first year).
Burrow got sacked technically 11 times, while having to call his own plays at times, and still beat the #1 seed on the road. He’s played half the amount of games as Jones. Stop with the excuses it’s embarrassing.