Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
Get it done unless...
Schoen mentioned in his interview on WFAN, that there could be some "ancillary" candidates that could be interviewed. This was when he was answering the question of when the HC would be hired.
I wonder who those candidates might be.
that a HC bring in quality coordinators. I haven’t heard of a single OC associated with Flores other than Blevins. That’s a name that doesn’t generate a whole lot of confidence. If Flores can’t bring in a quality OC and offensive staff, that’s a no for me.
Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
How can you watch a game on TV and determine from that the reason the team is playing hard? What would have looked different if they had been playing hard for Flores instead of themselves?
Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
that's highly speculative. you are what your record is true to some degree, no?
in 2019 everyone thought they'd be lucky to win 1 or 2 games they won 5 (preseason vegas o/u was 4.5 before dealing Tunsil/Fitzpatrick).
in 2020 their o/u was 6 and they won 10.
this past year it was 9.5 and they won 9 despite Tua missing a couple months.
Flores has warts but he also has 3 years of getting the most out of his teams.
Having said that I personally like Flores better. Daboll, being yet the next "hot assistant of the year" scares me. I would rather have a guy who knows what it means to be a HC because he's done it. Not saying Daboll can't, but he will be learning on the job like BigMac and JJ. Daboll seems more hit/miss to me.
Having said that I personally like Flores better. Daboll, being yet the next "hot assistant of the year" scares me. I would rather have a guy who knows what it means to be a HC because he's done it. Not saying Daboll can't, but he will be learning on the job like BigMac and JJ. Daboll seems more hit/miss to me.
Having said that I personally like Flores better. Daboll, being yet the next "hot assistant of the year" scares me. I would rather have a guy who knows what it means to be a HC because he's done it. Not saying Daboll can't, but he will be learning on the job like BigMac and JJ. Daboll seems more hit/miss to me.
Who has a better working relationship with the GM....Daboll does. I don't see anyway that Flores gets the job unless Daboll doesn't want it for some reason.
but the mere fact that Flores gets the job (if he does) if not an indication that Mara overrode the decision of Schoen.
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
RE: I'd be ok with either, but Schoen's opinion is what matters
If Schoen wants Daboll, it should be Daboll and that's that.
Schoen was brought in because John and Chris have repeatedly shown themselves to be unable to clean up this mess. So stand back and defer to the guy that you hired to clean it up.
If Schoen truly wants Daboll and they go with someone else...wow.
I feel your sentiment ... but this exact conversation came up ... It is not improbable the Mara preferred candidate actually did well in the process and JS is interested ... No way Mara alienates the new HC with a forced appointment not after all that has happen he did what all the owners do I like this guy is possible he can get on the list. The preferred guy has to Flores or Quinn ... so he has the same sentiment a lot of football people have on those two. Daboll looking like the GM favorite started in the pole position and doing well coming into the last lap, followed by Flores in 2nd (???Iguess how much stock you put into the rumora about clearign CAP space for him) or Quinn (Retread seems like an ole boy pick we'll call it traditional and Mara/NYG like) but still getting mentioned by not just Mara ...
If he forces picks on Schoen Joe fucked himself and no way he takes the job knowing he can pick who he wants nor does Mara want to have a strained relationship for the next 4 yrs out the gate over something he clearly said he would not do. A collective list will be made GM picks from the collective list. The asked they question about vetoing a pick ... basically said yes it could happen would never happen ... Pick from the collective list ... That is how most teams do it more or less ... no way the owner is getting 0 inout on the candidates for GM, HC and top 10 pick maybe 15. After that the input on a pick will drop-off a great deal.
I htink Mara was able to just go with signing-off on the list and chilling out ... it is killing him but no way he is that blind arrogant etc ... he is not a dumb dude. Though he has us all pissed and thinking maybe he is...no he just had to hit rock bottom ..... Being in charge like that is also a drug of sorts ....
but the mere fact that Flores gets the job (if he does) if not an indication that Mara overrode the decision of Schoen.
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
You've got some special ESP skills if you can watch a game (or more likely highlights) and determine what is motivating those players. What an absurd statement.
I think he learns from his first opportunity but I think what tension may have existed was about one thing. Winning. Mara leave a last thought to JS.
"Joe, it is your decision and I am glad you followed those 80's teams. Things were not always smooth back then with the HC/GM but they won. Then we lost for a while. We brought in this other guy and he ruffled some feathers too. Interestingly, we won again. We haven't won in a while and that's why your here. Now I'm not telling you to hire a HC who can be tough to deal with. I just want you to know the ones around here who have won bigtime were not always the easiest to deal with. Both would be the first to tell you its not personal. Its about winning."
Then he should fucking get Daboll. Mara can go suck a dick
Cannot offer the job until second in person minority interview with Frazier...
Is that accurate?
I think it's two virtual external minority interviews (and they already satisfied that by having interviewed Frazier via videocall last week, along with Flores in person today). And having also interviewed Graham yesterday in person along with Flores in person today, I think they have fulfilled the rule both to the letter and in spirit.
It baffles me that some still want another rookie HC. Give me Flores who has proven to elevate a broken team.
This is such a foolish POV.
Those coaches failed because they were bad coaches. We also hired Shurmur, who was a retread, and he sucked. Coughlin was a retread, and is an all-time great. Fassel was a first-timer and was pretty good. Reeves was a retread and was decent. Handley was a first-timer and was awful. Parcells was a first-timer and was an all-time great.
Finding a great head coach doesn't require that someone else found him and failed him first.
RE: RE: I am as skeptical of Mara's meddling as anyone
but the mere fact that Flores gets the job (if he does) if not an indication that Mara overrode the decision of Schoen.
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
This is reasonable skepticism.
Anything more and it moves into the C-zone...
+1
RE: I am as skeptical of Mara's meddling as anyone
but the mere fact that Flores gets the job (if he does) if not an indication that Mara overrode the decision of Schoen.
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
between the Mara's choosing candidates who were not HC's, and Schoen choosing Daboll, is that Schoen has worked for a long time with Daboll. Joe isn't basing his evaluation of Daboll on a 3 hour interview, and recommendations from staff, he has worked with Daboll, and should know him inside and out. Joe also knows how critical this choice will be, it will impact his job as well if the choice fails.
Also, if Mara still wants Daniel Jones to succeed, then he should be leaning towards Daboll, who would be the better choice to get the best out of DJ. While Flores may be the "safer" choice (and more popular, since he's from the area), I doubt that Jones has any chance of succeeding under Coach Flores, since DJ needs a LOT of help from his OC. Flores hasn't demonstrated he can get and hold a decent OC, based on his Miami tenure.
I know, Mara contacted Flores before hand, but again, that was before Schoen was hired. Flores was on all the potential GM candidates lists, so it made sense for JM to contact him early, in case Schoen was not selected (since Daboll would likely go where Joe went). It was actually a smart move, in retrospect, since at least the Giants would not be holding the bag if Daboll said no.
RE: It's pretty telling that Flores isn't interviewing anywhere else.
There was a tweet yesterday saying Flores would tap Darrell Bevell to be the OC. Major red flag. Bevell's playcalling in SEA his last two seasons was atrocious.
The Ravens fired him for a reason - his defenses weren't nearly as good as they appeared on paper.
Sure they were. He had practice squad players in the secondary this year. This is a team that competed until the very end with Jackson out for 6 games and they were on 4th tier running backs. Marquise Brown still drops 1 out of every 3 balls thrown his way.
My concern with Martindale is that his defenses are predicated on getting to the QB - to a fault. This is something that the Giants defense is awful at.
Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
Schoen mentioned in his interview on WFAN, that there could be some "ancillary" candidates that could be interviewed. This was when he was answering the question of when the HC would be hired.
I wonder who those candidates might be.
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Then he should fucking get Daboll. Mara can go suck a dick
What the fuck is wrong with people?
Not it Mara's comment about "we failed with Daniel Jones". It's Daboll, Flores doesn't make sense in that regard.
To undercut him first decision would be a terrible look. Terrible.
As for Daboll’s DC, Fazio, Martindale, Graham…
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Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
How can you watch a game on TV and determine from that the reason the team is playing hard? What would have looked different if they had been playing hard for Flores instead of themselves?
Doubt it.
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Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
that's highly speculative. you are what your record is true to some degree, no?
in 2019 everyone thought they'd be lucky to win 1 or 2 games they won 5 (preseason vegas o/u was 4.5 before dealing Tunsil/Fitzpatrick).
in 2020 their o/u was 6 and they won 10.
this past year it was 9.5 and they won 9 despite Tua missing a couple months.
Flores has warts but he also has 3 years of getting the most out of his teams.
100% this
Who has a better working relationship with the GM....Daboll does. I don't see anyway that Flores gets the job unless Daboll doesn't want it for some reason.
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
Schoen was brought in because John and Chris have repeatedly shown themselves to be unable to clean up this mess. So stand back and defer to the guy that you hired to clean it up.
If Schoen truly wants Daboll and they go with someone else...wow.
I feel your sentiment ... but this exact conversation came up ... It is not improbable the Mara preferred candidate actually did well in the process and JS is interested ... No way Mara alienates the new HC with a forced appointment not after all that has happen he did what all the owners do I like this guy is possible he can get on the list. The preferred guy has to Flores or Quinn ... so he has the same sentiment a lot of football people have on those two. Daboll looking like the GM favorite started in the pole position and doing well coming into the last lap, followed by Flores in 2nd (???Iguess how much stock you put into the rumora about clearign CAP space for him) or Quinn (Retread seems like an ole boy pick we'll call it traditional and Mara/NYG like) but still getting mentioned by not just Mara ...
If he forces picks on Schoen Joe fucked himself and no way he takes the job knowing he can pick who he wants nor does Mara want to have a strained relationship for the next 4 yrs out the gate over something he clearly said he would not do. A collective list will be made GM picks from the collective list. The asked they question about vetoing a pick ... basically said yes it could happen would never happen ... Pick from the collective list ... That is how most teams do it more or less ... no way the owner is getting 0 inout on the candidates for GM, HC and top 10 pick maybe 15. After that the input on a pick will drop-off a great deal.
I htink Mara was able to just go with signing-off on the list and chilling out ... it is killing him but no way he is that blind arrogant etc ... he is not a dumb dude. Though he has us all pissed and thinking maybe he is...no he just had to hit rock bottom ..... Being in charge like that is also a drug of sorts ....
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
This is reasonable skepticism.
Anything more and it moves into the C-zone...
It's bad management to avoid rookie HCs because you were burned twice. Pick hires on individual merit.
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Can he retain coaches and work with others? Watching the players in Miami it seemed like they were playing for their own pride and to not be cut than because of Brian Flores. Do we need a repeat of what Jets had with Adam Gase?
You've got some special ESP skills if you can watch a game (or more likely highlights) and determine what is motivating those players. What an absurd statement.
It's bad management to avoid rookie HCs because you were burned twice. Pick hires on individual merit.
Mara also got burned keeping Reese in place and then hiring Gettleman.
His only safe play was to abstain from the hiring decisions of both GM and HC, but that ship has sailed...
It's bad management to avoid rookie HCs because you were burned twice. Pick hires on individual merit.
Three times.
"Joe, it is your decision and I am glad you followed those 80's teams. Things were not always smooth back then with the HC/GM but they won. Then we lost for a while. We brought in this other guy and he ruffled some feathers too. Interestingly, we won again. We haven't won in a while and that's why your here. Now I'm not telling you to hire a HC who can be tough to deal with. I just want you to know the ones around here who have won bigtime were not always the easiest to deal with. Both would be the first to tell you its not personal. Its about winning."
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He should not have an opinion on this hire. Trust your GM and step back. If daboll fails it's on Schoen.
It's bad management to avoid rookie HCs because you were burned twice. Pick hires on individual merit.
Three times.
2, Judge and Macadoo. Shurmur was a retread from Cleveland.
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He should not have an opinion on this hire. Trust your GM and step back. If daboll fails it's on Schoen.
It's bad management to avoid rookie HCs because you were burned twice. Pick hires on individual merit.
Three times.
Shurmur was not a rookie head coach. He previously went 9-23 in two season with Cleveland, 2011-12.
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In comment 15578106 JonC said:
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Then he should fucking get Daboll. Mara can go suck a dick
Cannot offer the job until second in person minority interview with Frazier...
Is that accurate?
I think it's two virtual external minority interviews (and they already satisfied that by having interviewed Frazier via videocall last week, along with Flores in person today). And having also interviewed Graham yesterday in person along with Flores in person today, I think they have fulfilled the rule both to the letter and in spirit.
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who’s Flores’ OC?
Who's Daboll's DC?
Martindale.
This is such a foolish POV.
Those coaches failed because they were bad coaches. We also hired Shurmur, who was a retread, and he sucked. Coughlin was a retread, and is an all-time great. Fassel was a first-timer and was pretty good. Reeves was a retread and was decent. Handley was a first-timer and was awful. Parcells was a first-timer and was an all-time great.
Finding a great head coach doesn't require that someone else found him and failed him first.
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but the mere fact that Flores gets the job (if he does) if not an indication that Mara overrode the decision of Schoen.
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
This is reasonable skepticism.
Anything more and it moves into the C-zone...
+1
1) Daboll may prefer the Miami job if he gets that one, or not have great answers to questions about who he would like to bring in on his staff that moves him behind Flores.
2) Schoen may actually prefer Flores, or see Daboll as 1 and Flores as 1a, and therefore agree it is best to lean that way and actually agree it should be Flores.
3) And yes, there is some likelihood that Mara simply pushed it to the point where Schoen felt he had to go along.
Whatever way it goes, there is not going to be any "proof" of Mara meddling, even if Flores is hired and Daboll goes elsewhere.
Keep that in mind.
And if we're down to Daboll and Flores, only one of them can use Miami for leverage/
Also, if Mara still wants Daniel Jones to succeed, then he should be leaning towards Daboll, who would be the better choice to get the best out of DJ. While Flores may be the "safer" choice (and more popular, since he's from the area), I doubt that Jones has any chance of succeeding under Coach Flores, since DJ needs a LOT of help from his OC. Flores hasn't demonstrated he can get and hold a decent OC, based on his Miami tenure.
I know, Mara contacted Flores before hand, but again, that was before Schoen was hired. Flores was on all the potential GM candidates lists, so it made sense for JM to contact him early, in case Schoen was not selected (since Daboll would likely go where Joe went). It was actually a smart move, in retrospect, since at least the Giants would not be holding the bag if Daboll said no.
He interviewed with Bears and Texans and came from one of the openings, so there is one less possibility for Flores than the rest of the field.
There was a tweet yesterday saying Flores would tap Darrell Bevell to be the OC. Major red flag. Bevell's playcalling in SEA his last two seasons was atrocious.
Sure they were. He had practice squad players in the secondary this year. This is a team that competed until the very end with Jackson out for 6 games and they were on 4th tier running backs. Marquise Brown still drops 1 out of every 3 balls thrown his way.
My concern with Martindale is that his defenses are predicated on getting to the QB - to a fault. This is something that the Giants defense is awful at.
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who’s Flores’ OC?
Who's Daboll's DC?
Martindale?
He interviewed with Houston and Chicago. He said he is not rushing his next decision.