Over the years I have realized where I do NOT have credibility or enough knowledge. I try to back away from those topics, just read and listen. Read and listen. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Picking a coach (and just as importantly, his staff) is such a deep and complex process. There is more to it than most of us know. One person I've had the luck to learn the game from when it comes to the league and its inner-workings gave me some insight to what it is going on inside NYG's walls. it is a fascinating listen but I still walked away from my latest conversation with him knowing that I truly do not know who is best for NYG.
So with that in mind, knowing my credibility here is limited...
I think Flores needs to be the guy. One thing I do know a lot about is workspace leadership, culture building, and multiple moving parts with separate desires being funneled into one common goal. That background I have helped lead me to the idea that Flores needs to be the guy.
Daboll may be a great HC someday. Perhaps he is even ready right now. But the most important unknown with him revolves around what I think is the most important element to being a coach, a Head Coach. NYG needs a personality, they need a culture. The takeaway I got from Schoen yesterday is a zero-tolerance for immaturity and off field issues that create a soft ground for the entire team to stand on. He wants rock-solid players and people in the buildin. 24/7/365.
To do that, you need to KNOW the Head Coach can carry that through. The head coach sets that culture more than anyone on a day in, day out basis. In the NFL, it needs to be a guy that can legitimately scare NFL players, push them, motivate them, mold them. Flores can do that and he has proven to do that. He doesn't hold back, he is brutally honest with players and coaches, and he creates a mindset where you don't want to let him down.
Can Daboll do that? Maybe, maybe not. You know Flores can.
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
Give me culture first, scheme second.
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
That would probably come up in the interview.
Then does he get disqualified if he says jones needs to be replaced?
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
That would probably come up in the interview.
Then does he get disqualified if he says jones needs to be replaced?
If says he can't work with Jones, he wouldn't be in "lockstep" with the GM, so yeah.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
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In comment 15578605 RollBlue said:
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
Not to pull out an old cliche but I 100% believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It doesn't mean that great strategy & scheme are critical; it just means that it is all for naught if the culture isn't strong.
One of the areas where I completely disagree about culture was all of the "clown show" talk. Some of the best teams I've been a part of had fights in practice; people are competitive and want to win. If you practice like you play then you are going to have people ready to go on Sundays. Some of the worst teams I played on were best of friends but didn't have what it took to win. Which team would you rather play on?
Taking specific incidents (i.e. Redskins sideline fight) and claiming that it is indicative of a bad culture is just wrong. Great teams don't always get along, but they understand their specific role in the context of the organization and play it better than anyone else. I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Redskins are 1) better coached, 2) better culture, 3) better position to compete in 2022 than the NYG. Most of us can't see what type of culture a team has; just because Judge talked about it all the time doesn't mean that it was any better than any other team in the league.
but that said there's as big of a difference as there can be in having been a coach before. Flores has overachieved (imo) in all 3 of his NFL seasons, so that's probably the guy I'd go with. When Miami started 0-7 in 2019 after trading Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake and putting most of their best players on IR (esp Howard) I'd have bet $1m against them winning 5 games the rest of that year. Flores coached up a bunch of practice squaders to keep Tom Brady from getting a bye in his last season in NE. And then followed that year up with 2 winning seasons.
fascinating first decision for Joe Schoen.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
Correct. And he also knows Grier, whose greatest success was thought to be hiring Flores and from most reports they were in lockstep on pretty much all the big decisions (including Tua > Herbert).
He's going to have good insight into both options. Which is why it's a fascinating decision to see play out.
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
I disagree as HC. McAdoo as OC under Coughlin had a good scheme because TC insisted on balance, that they run the ball. McAdoo as HC completely abandoned that.
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Yeah, they played better later, but they had an easy schedule then.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Also it appears that some of the same issues that occured with the Giants offense occurred with the Dolphins.
Miami was only marginally better than the Giants.
We've tried that several times and failed miserably. Give me someone proven.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Excellent points about Miami's record this year. There was a real optical illusion to it for sure.
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In comment 15578720 ZogZerg said:
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Yeah, they played better later, but they had an easy schedule then.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
The Ravens game they blitzed the crap out of Lamar Jackson and had him completely shut down. Hollywood and Andrews both played and they entered the game 6-2 as an 8.5 point favorite, so not sure the injuries were as extensive as your thinking (that was later in the year).
Why did the Dolphins fire him? No idea - but I don't think im alone judging by the fact that most people found it to be shocking that he was fired. From everything out of the reporters in Miami who traditionally have the best sources (Barry Jackson) the primary reason was that he didn't get along with ownership.
Flores can be that type of leader for NYG i think.
He also got fired after 3 years of apparently doing a good job as the coach. How do we take that? You can write any story you want.
Is the Miami org a mess, full of back-stabbers with a GM focused solely on self-preservation? Maybe. Maybe he's a great coach who was the victim of a dysfunctional organization. Maybe.
Is he a tremendous asshole who can't work with a boss, can't have a respectful working relationship with his coaches, and can't manage players who don't toe the line? Was his personality the primary driver of his demise? Maybe.
We don't know much. And even if you could talk to people in the building, I'm sure you'd get conflicting stories. My experience is that when somebody has problems dealing with people that it's not the fault of the other people. But again, I don't know. And people can also grow and learn through their experiences.
I reflexively object to the whole "we need an asskicker who tells it like it is" approach. I don't think that's good leadership. I think getting along with people while still driving towards excellence is part of leadership. "Everybody else needs to toughen up so Brian flores can do his job" doesn't cut it for me.
So I'd say I'm skeptical on him. But he might be a good coach and I'd be OK if he's the hire.
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New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Excellent points about Miami's record this year. There was a real optical illusion to it for sure.
8-4 with Tua
1-4 without him
a real optical illusion.
here's another mind bender to consider. Brissett started the game against the Ravens and it was a 3-3 game when he got hurt in the 3rd Q. not a bad score considering they entered a near double digit underdog. Tua came in and led 3 scoring drives in the 2nd half including the td drive that put the game away with 2 min left in the 4th Q.
Brissett had been 11/23 for 156 before getting hurt.
Tua went 8/13 for 158 and a rushing td.
so it's almost like they played better...with their starting qb.
2020 - vegas o/u was 6 wins he won 10
2021 - vegas o/u was 9.5 he won 9
in year 1 the o/u didn't reflect the fact that they traded the few good players they had with most expecting they were tanking for tua (tunsil, fitzpatrick, drake).
in year 3 his starting QB missed 1/3 of the year.
im not saying he's a no brainer - there's plenty of questions that need to be answered, as there are with pretty much any candidate. but i do believe in a certain degree of "you are what your record is". he has a winning record over each of the past 2 years and was an overachiever given circumstances all 3.
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
I fully expect Flores to reject Jones if he becomes the HC.
I like the W-L trajectory but am having trouble getting over that.
during the season Stephen Ross seemed personally engaged in the trade talks re: Watson and publicly commented on it. There's a watson/flores connection that's well established also but it's hard to assign who was most urgent in that pursuit.
re: the tua selection in the first place, people forget that in 2019 the thinking was they were 'tanking for Tua'. The reports are that there was organizational alignment when the decision was ultimately made (flores and ownership included). Herbert has obviously changed a lot of minds after the fact but there's no strong evidence there was internal disagreement at the time.
re: tua/flores this year who knows what the reality is? if i was tua I'd be pretty pissed to be getting dragged through rumors the way he was, and hearing the owner/leadership of the organization comment publicly on Watson trade discussions. I thought Tua was a bust so he progressed a lot more on the field than i thought he would so he deserves credit for that. and he probably earned a different level of respect after the season than he had at the trade deadline when he was injured and didn't have the run of better play.
the organization collectively got the tua/herbert decision wrong but beyond that its tough to tell what was going on.
I like the W-L trajectory but am having trouble getting over that.
not Sy but here's my 2 cents.
positives - he was willing to make changes. and even making all those changes his offenses weren't terrible (over his 3 years in miami they averaged 5 more ppg than the nyg under judge). Tua did make progress in year 2. They drafted Waddle high and used him well.
negatives - he has a similar track record of being conservative with 4th downs and clearly a spotty record at hiring good OCs.
this is probably the biggest area of concern for me and the one that would have taken up the biggest block of time in the interview. what's the plan to build a successful, modern offense going forward? answering that question well is probably the key to the decision to hire him or not.
not likely. Dorsey is more likely taking Daboll's spot or following him.
What people talk about with "culture" are teams with talented rosters, teams that have competitive leaders who will buy into what the coaches say because they believe it will lead to wins. Without leaders on the team, talent isn't enough for sustained success.
Talent plus leaders equals wins, and winning leads to culture, because players will believe in coaches who put them in a system that works. Once your team starts
losing talent, then losing starts, and that belief evaporates, no matter what "culture" you had before.
If John Mara is to believed (a long stretch, I know), then remember what he said about Daniel Jones being screwed by the coaches John hired. Daboll is the obvious choice if Mara is serious about trying to fix DJ.
I don't know if that is possible, but there's no reason to think that hiring Flores will result in any improvement for DJ. That's why I think Daboll is a lock if he wants the job.
And that's why you bring in Ken Dorsey
Maybe John is willing to VS that much and reopen that can of worms.
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
I fully expect Flores to reject Jones if he becomes the HC.
Flores is not going to "reject Jones" THIS year after Mara and Schoen publicly endorsed the QB and talked about how Jones hasn't been given a fair shake.
I think they bring in a better backup/competition for Jones this year and replace him NEXT year.
I hope he hires him as the new Vikes HC.
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
In three years at Miami he cycled through 4 offensive coordinators. Last year the team website listed TWO names as offensive coordinator (George Godsey, Eric Studesville).
Chan Gailey, who had been out of football completely for 5 years until Flores called, and Chad O'Shea, a Neophyte offensive coordinator who got one year, was dismissed, and went back to being a WR coach.
What are the grounds for being confident he can pick an offensive staff if he couldn't do it in 3 years?
Daboll similarly has to hire an entire staff though it does seem a lot simpler since there are a lot of good options on the defensive side.
Flores can be that type of leader for NYG i think.
Did Tomlin ever get fired coming off of two winning seasons? Does Tomlin have a career losing record? Has Tomlin churned through OCs and OL coaches like junk mail?
They're not similar. You're just back to your regular justification stance.
as far as the similarities they are both primarily defensive assistants who also had experience coaching offense and became head coaches without extensive careers as coordinators. Each played college ball. Each got their shot in their mid 30's. Each with similar no-nonsense personas. Tomlin won coach of the year in his 2nd season as coach, Flores came in 3rd. Is there any other coach you can think of who has a more similar resume to Tomlin than Flores?
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
In three years at Miami he cycled through 4 offensive coordinators. Last year the team website listed TWO names as offensive coordinator (George Godsey, Eric Studesville).
Chan Gailey, who had been out of football completely for 5 years until Flores called, and Chad O'Shea, a Neophyte offensive coordinator who got one year, was dismissed, and went back to being a WR coach.
What are the grounds for being confident he can pick an offensive staff if he couldn't do it in 3 years?
Good points. Definitely not a great look that those names were the best he could muster.
The modern player and offense has to be taken in to consideration. This is a different breed of professional athletes, they aren't uneducated ill informed meat heads anymore who just shut up and play. A coach will be as successful as his approach to his players and those around him. The tough guy and culture talk are tired talking points of people who were raised differently than kids are now. Guess what, I was raised the exact same way, I used to share just this point of view, but the more people I work with and see succeeding are those able to adapt to those around them. It's not bending over backwards or being soft or whatever people want to call it. You have to value the individual and the collection of individuals. Robotic hard ass ways are a thing of the past. It's not the best way to get large groups motivated, you need flexible adaptable leadership with a clear vision in and X and O way how to win.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way. I'm in the minority on this and I know that disagreeing with our resident football expert is usually folly, and I respect the hell out of Sy, and his well thought out takes. Just not on this and I don't mean a shred of disrespect to him, Eric or anyone who agrees that Flores is the better choice. I just see it differently.
The modern player and offense has to be taken in to consideration. This is a different breed of professional athletes, they aren't uneducated ill informed meat heads anymore who just shut up and play. A coach will be as successful as his approach to his players and those around him. The tough guy and culture talk are tired talking points of people who were raised differently than kids are now. Guess what, I was raised the exact same way, I used to share just this point of view, but the more people I work with and see succeeding are those able to adapt to those around them. It's not bending over backwards or being soft or whatever people want to call it. You have to value the individual and the collection of individuals. Robotic hard ass ways are a thing of the past. It's not the best way to get large groups motivated, you need flexible adaptable leadership with a clear vision in and X and O way how to win.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way. I'm in the minority on this and I know that disagreeing with our resident football expert is usually folly, and I respect the hell out of Sy, and his well thought out takes. Just not on this and I don't mean a shred of disrespect to him, Eric or anyone who agrees that Flores is the better choice. I just see it differently.
Great post. I said something similar above that this "scare the players" POV is just outdated and feels like sticking a square peg into a round hole. Guys like McVey, Taylor, LaFleur, etc aren't interested in the tough guy/intimidation act. They are teachers who understand what makes the current players tick and find more intelligent ways to communicate and motivate.
I will be happy with Daboll, but I really want Flores. Assuming it's down to those two.
I will be happy with Daboll, but I really want Flores. Assuming it's down to those two.
Sy wrote this in his opening:
I'm not sure if Flores is the HC who can scare players or not. I just have a different POV than Sy and think this approach with today's players is a bit stale and outdated. And I'm a die-hard Parcells guy. But you have to adapt or die, and it seems the more practical approach with today's generation is being less hard ass and getting more creative with connecting.
I've read a lot today about Nathanial Hackett and the homework he does to stay current with today's players and their interests - music, social media, etc. Players really gravitate to him.
That said, I'm happy with one of Flores or Daboll. I definitely lean Flores. And who knows maybe they are waiting for someone else.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way.
This is where I am right now as a Giants fan. I am tired of this team constantly reaching into the past to devise a plan for the future. For me Flores feels like a throwback, not a step forward.
We can all appreciate toughness and the value that Flores leadership brings to the table, but the great Giants teams of the 80s, 90s and 2000s were great b/c their style of football matched up well against the rest of the NFL. Tough, hard nosed coaches like Parcells and Coughlin installed a similar hardworking ethos in their players b/c their style of play demanded it and that type of coaching matched up well with the rest of their peers who were equally tough and hard nosed.
The modern NFL does not value the same qualities. Bashing the other team into submission is not a valid means to achieving victory anymore. Teams still need to be tough, but the best teams value speed, ingenuity and aggressiveness. My fear with Flores is that the Giants would be following the same tired logic when they hired Judge, by prioritizing an idea of toughness without an actual plan to develop a competent offense that will result in more wins. Maybe I am wrong, but I would rather be wrong on a guy who has shown he can run a modern NFL offense.
For me it is a big ball of:
A quality x/o scheme
quality leadership from management and coaches to get the players to buy into it
quality leadership from players to help their peers buy into the system, and better themselves in executing the system
quality players who believe in the team's ability to execute.
Basically, a team that believes in itself.
A guy who is great at cracking the whip is one approach to knocking off silly stuff and steer the players into putting effort in.
But, the overall thing is having a system and a coaching staff that the players can believe in. A good system and good coaching leadership develops the 'culture', not the other way around. Quality players able to execute is also paramount. To develop a culture of winning, you need players and coaches who can win. Players will fall in line with the culture fast when W's start happening. There will not be a culture if the x/o's and players executing them are not up to the task.
For me it is a big ball of:
A quality x/o scheme
quality leadership from management and coaches to get the players to buy into it
quality leadership from players to help their peers buy into the system, and better themselves in executing the system
quality players who believe in the team's ability to execute.
Basically, a team that believes in itself.
A guy who is great at cracking the whip is one approach to knocking off silly stuff and steer the players into putting effort in.
But, the overall thing is having a system and a coaching staff that the players can believe in. A good system and good coaching leadership develops the 'culture', not the other way around. Quality players able to execute is also paramount. To develop a culture of winning, you need players and coaches who can win. Players will fall in line with the culture fast when W's start happening. There will not be a culture if the x/o's and players executing them are not up to the task.
It also helps if they can stay reasonably healthy..Well done
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
I fully expect Flores to reject Jones if he becomes the HC.
Getting this out the way, I will not be upset with Daboll, just ststing my preference and why. Daboll is a great candidate.
The modern player and offense has to be taken in to consideration. This is a different breed of professional athletes, they aren't uneducated ill informed meat heads anymore who just shut up and play. A coach will be as successful as his approach to his players and those around him. The tough guy and culture talk are tired talking points of people who were raised differently than kids are now. Guess what, I was raised the exact same way, I used to share just this point of view, but the more people I work with and see succeeding are those able to adapt to those around them. It's not bending over backwards or being soft or whatever people want to call it. You have to value the individual and the collection of individuals. Robotic hard ass ways are a thing of the past. It's not the best way to get large groups motivated, you need flexible adaptable leadership with a clear vision in and X and O way how to win.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way. I'm in the minority on this and I know that disagreeing with our resident football expert is usually folly, and I respect the hell out of Sy, and his well thought out takes. Just not on this and I don't mean a shred of disrespect to him, Eric or anyone who agrees that Flores is the better choice. I just see it differently.
Just want to say how much I appreciate what you bring to the table on this site and am hoping you will continue to do so despite a very bleak outlook ahead...