Over the years I have realized where I do NOT have credibility or enough knowledge. I try to back away from those topics, just read and listen. Read and listen. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Picking a coach (and just as importantly, his staff) is such a deep and complex process. There is more to it than most of us know. One person I've had the luck to learn the game from when it comes to the league and its inner-workings gave me some insight to what it is going on inside NYG's walls. it is a fascinating listen but I still walked away from my latest conversation with him knowing that I truly do not know who is best for NYG.
So with that in mind, knowing my credibility here is limited...
I think Flores needs to be the guy. One thing I do know a lot about is workspace leadership, culture building, and multiple moving parts with separate desires being funneled into one common goal. That background I have helped lead me to the idea that Flores needs to be the guy.
Daboll may be a great HC someday. Perhaps he is even ready right now. But the most important unknown with him revolves around what I think is the most important element to being a coach, a Head Coach. NYG needs a personality, they need a culture. The takeaway I got from Schoen yesterday is a zero-tolerance for immaturity and off field issues that create a soft ground for the entire team to stand on. He wants rock-solid players and people in the buildin. 24/7/365.
To do that, you need to KNOW the Head Coach can carry that through. The head coach sets that culture more than anyone on a day in, day out basis. In the NFL, it needs to be a guy that can legitimately scare NFL players, push them, motivate them, mold them. Flores can do that and he has proven to do that. He doesn't hold back, he is brutally honest with players and coaches, and he creates a mindset where you don't want to let him down.
Can Daboll do that? Maybe, maybe not. You know Flores can.
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
Give me culture first, scheme second.
I've never heard a negative thing about Flores. Only that he tells it like it is 24/7. No sugar coating.
The world we live in is sensitive AF so maybe some can't handle it.
I think the stories are BS. To be blunt...too many people mistake hard honesty for "mean" comments. They're so used to finding sympathy because of social media and some just can't grasp that fact that life isn't fair, end of story. That is the world we live in now...but I won't go too deep into that because I don't want this thread deleted.
The GM has to be comfortable with the HC or this isn't going to work.
Derrell Bevel. He sucks. His last couple seasons in Seattle were abysmal and he got zero out of that Jax offense last year. Zero.
There is just too much evidence that he is a good and successful coach, and honestly I hope the Giants don't squander the opportunity that the Miami owner has given to us.
+1. If I had a preference heading into the process it actually was Flores, I just find it an odd pairing with Schoen given their shared history with Grier. Maybe Schoen thinks Grier is a shithead? Who knows. He did thank him by name in his PC, so that it is unlikely. I would just find it a strange pairing and I think it's important that the two are aligned. Give me who Schoen wants and hold him accountable for that hire.
Sy, you really only spoke of Daboll vs Flores. Do you feel the same about Flores compared to other long shot candidates like Pedersen or the unlikely Harbaugh?
Does anyone anticipate any surprise last minute candidates?
I do find it comforting that you believe in Flores. But I do have concerns about getting a good OC. What a terrible, unimaginative, steaming pile of crap we have seen the past two years. I think you are right on Flores. He will not take crap and he has an air of arrogance(in a good way) to him.
Really enjoy your impromptu posts.
Derrell Bevel. He sucks. His last couple seasons in Seattle were abysmal and he got zero out of that Jax offense last year. Zero.
What ties does Flores have to him?
If I could make this happen, I’d hire Flores as HC, with Daboll as his OC.
Dream on.
You hired an outsider for fresh perspective - how about you let him decide?
I think Flores is the better coach. My issue is not coaching related with him. Seems like he had a lot of issues with management and fired a lot of coaches. I wonder if Schoen is a little leery of that.
You want to be on the same page with the coach...flores is going to really have to have a lot of explanations for how things were handled off the field in Miami.
If I could make this happen, I’d hire Flores as HC, with Daboll as his OC.
Dream on.
I heard Bill O’Brien tied to Flores not Bevell or whomever you are talking about
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
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Do the stories of Flores being tough to get along with really not bother you? Or perhaps you view that as the standard post-exit-hatchet-job leaked by the former employer?
I think the stories are BS. To be blunt...too many people mistake hard honesty for "mean" comments. They're so used to finding sympathy because of social media and some just can't grasp that fact that life isn't fair, end of story. That is the world we live in now...but I won't go too deep into that because I don't want this thread deleted.
Well said and I agree with this. I look at it this way, the Giants have enjoyed 2 extended runs of competitiveness, each resulting in 2 Super Bowls. But only 2. And in both cases the Giants had a coach considered a hard ass, but held players and everyone in the org to a high standard.
Sure we had some good seasons with Fassel, who was more of a players coach. But I want a guy who’s going to nail Golladay to the bench for a half the next time he doesn’t go all out to make a catch. not someone who’s going to be bros with the players first, coach second
if it's Flores, then Mara overruled Schoen
Everyone trying to fit what happens into their preconceived notions (confirmation bias)
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Remember Mara's statement about "we failed with DJ". Daboll and his offensive scheme fits better with that statement and of course his relationship with Schoen.
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Please document the red flags. If you’re just making this shit up I suggest you take a break from posting.
I’m writing this as a Daboll supporter.
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Do the stories of Flores being tough to get along with really not bother you? Or perhaps you view that as the standard post-exit-hatchet-job leaked by the former employer?
I think the stories are BS. To be blunt...too many people mistake hard honesty for "mean" comments. They're so used to finding sympathy because of social media and some just can't grasp that fact that life isn't fair, end of story. That is the world we live in now...but I won't go too deep into that because I don't want this thread deleted.
Also did any of these stories come out before he got fired (minus the Tua stuff? Genuine question because I feel like they only came out after the fact and smell a lot like planted stuff to make the organization look better for firing him.
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But what matters is what Schoen wants. If he wants Daboll, I hope Daboll gets the gig.
+1. If I had a preference heading into the process it actually was Flores, I just find it an odd pairing with Schoen given their shared history with Grier. Maybe Schoen thinks Grier is a shithead? Who knows. He did thank him by name in his PC, so that it is unlikely. I would just find it a strange pairing and I think it's important that the two are aligned. Give me who Schoen wants and hold him accountable for that hire.
That article someone posted on the other thread intimated that it was not Grier and Flores that had an issue. It basically said Grier was more of an ass-kisser man to Ross (who he roasted in the article) and Flores was not... and Flores had very strong opinions (Tua) so Flores got the boot.
What do you say?
What do you say?
Certainly plausible (and likely lol), to my mind.
What do you say?
A lot of these "journalists" are shills for owners. I mean I hear how great an owner Khan is ffs.
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They arent hiring him without interviewing him (which is happening as we speak). If Flores is hired it means Schoen/Mara are comfortable with his explanations of what went down in Miami and comfortable thinking that it wont happen with the Giants
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Please document the red flags. If you’re just making this shit up I suggest you take a break from posting.
I’m writing this as a Daboll supporter.
What are you talking about? We all know what the "red flags" are with Flores. If you dont try reading up on it
Did you even read what I wrote? I said if Flores can explain what happened in Miami to Mara/Schoen, then they would be comfortable hiring him. If he cant, they wont hire him
What dont you get?
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They arent hiring him without interviewing him (which is happening as we speak). If Flores is hired it means Schoen/Mara are comfortable with his explanations of what went down in Miami and comfortable thinking that it wont happen with the Giants
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Remember Mara's statement about "we failed with DJ". Daboll and his offensive scheme fits better with that statement and of course his relationship with Schoen.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. I wasnt advocating for Flores, just saying this "red flag" stuff makes no sense because the Giants arent hiring him without interviewing him first. Reading comprehension here is at an alltime low
Obviously very good HCs have been fired (Belichick, Coughlin, Reid) and have had success on other teams.
I really, really hope the Giants are very thorough in their evaluation of Flores and, as others have mentioned, Schoen is fully confident he and Flores would be on the same page.
As I've posted many times, the likelihood that Flores would keep Graham as DC is also troubling to me.
Lots of folks whose opinions I value (and now Sy) are liking Flores. This is giving my objections to him second thoughts.
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But what matters is what Schoen wants. If he wants Daboll, I hope Daboll gets the gig.
The GM has to be comfortable with the HC or this isn't going to work.
That leads to the question of who is functionally operating as the GM. If it's Schoen, JonC confirmed on another thread that Schoen wants Daboll. If Schoen wants Daboll, that's who I want. If he wanted Flores, that's who I'd want.
From John Mara's 1/12 press conference (bold is mine):
Schoen wants Daboll according to JonC. Do what it takes to hire Daboll before Miami does. Give Schoen and Daboll what they want, and back off.
We just hired this guy to be the GM and we're already undercutting him?
That article someone posted on the other thread intimated that it was not Grier and Flores that had an issue. It basically said Grier was more of an ass-kisser man to Ross (who he roasted in the article) and Flores was not... and Flores had very strong opinions (Tua) so Flores got the boot.
I don't take what is coming out of either camp at face value. I don't know either party or have the facts. All I know is that there was contention there, enough to get one of those guys fired. I'd like Schoen to be driving this decision and I just see a very low likelihood that Flores is his guy. Schoen knows Grier, if he has respect for him, he's going to put more stock into his side of things. That's what matters, not what I think. I'm more invested in how they decide on the coach than the decision itself. Bad process is why this team has stayed at the bottom so long.
I’ve wanted Dan Quinn just because his experience in Atlanta was pretty decent. He has a winning record after his 5 years and took them to the SB one year and playoff two years. Plus, he seems to be a good DC too.
So, in my mind, Quinn has proven he can be a successful QB….Flores has somewhat shown he can be a successful HC by having a near .500 record.
I have my doubts that Flores can coexist with Schoen, but don’t have any doubts about Quinn/Schoen. Maybe I’ve read too much about Flores being hard to get along with his coaches.
Ultimately, I will trust Schoen to do what he thinks is best. He seems like a smart man.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
I don't get the part about HC's "scarring players". I struggle to see young coaches like McVey, Taylor, Kingsbury, Shanahan, Lafleur scarring anyone. I think it's about leveling with players and being consistent.
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a couple of days ago... gun to my head, I'd go with Flores. But what do I know?
I think Flores is the better coach. My issue is not coaching related with him. Seems like he had a lot of issues with management and fired a lot of coaches. I wonder if Schoen is a little leery of that.
You want to be on the same page with the coach...flores is going to really have to have a lot of explanations for how things were handled off the field in Miami.
My issue with Flores is that although he has the hardened characteristics Sy outlined to make demands of his players and follow through if they don't abide by the rules, often times that type of personality doesn't want to follow HIS boss, but rather wants to control everything.
A wide range of opinions is good, but in the end one person makes the decision. It seems like Flores didn't want to do that in Miami (see: DeShaun Watson). The question would be, how long before Flores doesn't agree with a decision made by Schoen, and it begins to snowball.
I don't get the part about HC's "scarring players". I struggle to see young coaches like McVey, Taylor, Kingsbury, Shanahan, Lafleur scarring anyone. I think it's about leveling with players and being consistent.
Yes exactly. Don't see how they are scaring anyone. Seems like guys love playing for them as they almost seem equals.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Very smart post right here.
Or he is the GM in title only, and is in reality a lesser voice under the actual people playing GM.
Either way, there's no perfect candidate and the question is who is the right guy for THIS situation. You make some good points as to why its Flores. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if he's our coach within 24 hours.
and while it doesn't deal with what the Head Coach needs to bring to the table, I think a head coach who makes everyone in the locker room take losing PERSONALLY is maybe what Brian Flores brings to the table:
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Many years ago, back in the 1970s, Harry Carson got so sick of losing he sorta went off the rails and made some crazy remarks about his next options in life, or something like that. Maybe it was just another era, but our Hall of Fame middle linebacker took losing personally. I'm not sure there's much of that on this current roster. Our new General Manager, Joe Shoen, needs to find such players in the upcoming Draft.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Then when don't you want Matt Nagy as HC?
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
My concerns with Daboll are that he was working with Josh Allen and while that’s kind of a plus due to Allen’s enormous progress I think it can also be a bit of a neutral because Allen is so obviously talented. It’s not like he took a middling talent and crafted a winner. Still, to be fair, he did craft a winner, or at least didn’t get in his way. I didn’t see a lot of the Bills but in their biggest game of the season last week I was not impressed with the game plan. It seems like Allen was at his best working off schedule and I don’t imagine that was the game plan. Worse, the game plan seemed to leave out the most import playmaker, aside from Allen who seemed to running head first into the defense instead of getting the ball to Diggs and lil’ Cole Beasley.
My other concern is that he hasn’t been an NFL HC. I get the idea of getting someone on the way up, a la Tomlin, but it’s still a huge risk that Daboll will at the very least need time to make that leap to HC. The one thing the next Giants HC will NOT have is time.
Finally, I think Flores is simply more qualified. He’s been a winner in the NFL as an HC. He can hit the ground running and he’s still young enough to learn and grow with the organization.
Just because someone failed at building a culture AND a good football team doesn't mean it is a bad approach. They didn't have the right captain steering the ship. Judge was in over his head and Gettleman got a job because he was friends with the owner. They're simply not good at what they do.
That would be like me saying hiring an offensive coach is a bad idea because:
-Chip Kelly was an offensive guru, didn't work.
-Bill O'Brien was an offensive guru, didn't work
-Urban Meyer was an offensive guru, didn't work
-Matt Nagy was an offensive guru, didn't work
-Josh McDaniels was an offensive guru, didn't work
We can do this all day
For example, the rumor that he stopped talking to assistant coaches halfway thru the year… I mean come on.
I lean toward the idea that the best evidence someone can be a good head coach is being a good head coach in the recent past.
With young coaches with no prior experience, it seems like a crapshoot (giants 3rd round picks)
Wait a minute!
Do you mean we “hired the wrong GM, “ or John Mara never changed his spots and is making the final decision on the Head Coach thus cutting Schoen off at the knees.
What people talk about with "culture" are teams with talented rosters, teams that have competitive leaders who will buy into what the coaches say because they believe it will lead to wins. Without leaders on the team, talent isn't enough for sustained success.
Talent plus leaders equals wins, and winning leads to culture, because players will believe in coaches who put them in a system that works. Once your team starts losing talent, then losing starts, and that belief evaporates, no matter what "culture" you had before.
If John Mara is to believed (a long stretch, I know), then remember what he said about Daniel Jones being screwed by the coaches John hired. Daboll is the obvious choice if Mara is serious about trying to fix DJ.
I don't know if that is possible, but there's no reason to think that hiring Flores will result in any improvement for DJ. That's why I think Daboll is a lock if he wants the job.
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
But he also claimed to have cleaned up the culture and scapegoated ex players as culture problems. Just because he drafted guys who may be culture issues doesn’t mean Gettleman didn’t try to come like he was all about culture.
It’s irrelevant because the only culture is winning.
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
That would probably come up in the interview.
In the SB era, Giants have won 4, competed in another, and were competitive for a good part of the mid 80s to 2012.
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In comment 15578451 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
I think Toney is a weird guy, maybe a little misguided, I don't think he's bad. I think the point Sy was originally making was that he had some red flags yet Gettleman still drafted him, meaning that even though he claimed the culture thing, he was willing to take a risk on someone for talent.
In reality I agree with you, part of being a good coach is knowing how to corral these types of players who aren't choir boys. Imagine if Parcells didn't want to deal with LT or Jimmy Johnson couldn't handle his entire team...
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In comment 15578451 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
This. Toney may be an idiot and say some dumb things but what makes him a culture problem?
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In comment 15578451 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
And I'd also venture that if Lawrence Taylor were entering the NFL today, he would be considered by some to be a "bad guy."
This is not a talent laden roster that just needs a tweak. This is still a bad team lacking true talent up and down the roster. We need a guy that can teach these guys how to win despite not being as good. I think Miami has done well with the roster they have. Daboll only seems to have done well this year and their O is stacked and they had a really good D.
From what I've read about Daboll, I think he can be that guy too. He has been described as intense, with a fiery personality, but we have no idea if that will translate into the HC's office. We need more certainty at this point.
If you have spent time in locker rooms from both sides of the spectrum, you'd recognize the importance.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
It seems guys like McVay, Taylor, Staley, LaFleur take a softer approach and are having terrific success.
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
Not to pull out an old cliche but I 100% believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It doesn't mean that great strategy & scheme are critical; it just means that it is all for naught if the culture isn't strong.
One of the areas where I completely disagree about culture was all of the "clown show" talk. Some of the best teams I've been a part of had fights in practice; people are competitive and want to win. If you practice like you play then you are going to have people ready to go on Sundays. Some of the worst teams I played on were best of friends but didn't have what it took to win. Which team would you rather play on?
Taking specific incidents (i.e. Redskins sideline fight) and claiming that it is indicative of a bad culture is just wrong. Great teams don't always get along, but they understand their specific role in the context of the organization and play it better than anyone else. I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Redskins are 1) better coached, 2) better culture, 3) better position to compete in 2022 than the NYG. Most of us can't see what type of culture a team has; just because Judge talked about it all the time doesn't mean that it was any better than any other team in the league.
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
That would probably come up in the interview.
Then does he get disqualified if he says jones needs to be replaced?
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
That would probably come up in the interview.
Then does he get disqualified if he says jones needs to be replaced?
If says he can't work with Jones, he wouldn't be in "lockstep" with the GM, so yeah.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
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In comment 15578605 RollBlue said:
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
Not to pull out an old cliche but I 100% believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It doesn't mean that great strategy & scheme are critical; it just means that it is all for naught if the culture isn't strong.
One of the areas where I completely disagree about culture was all of the "clown show" talk. Some of the best teams I've been a part of had fights in practice; people are competitive and want to win. If you practice like you play then you are going to have people ready to go on Sundays. Some of the worst teams I played on were best of friends but didn't have what it took to win. Which team would you rather play on?
Taking specific incidents (i.e. Redskins sideline fight) and claiming that it is indicative of a bad culture is just wrong. Great teams don't always get along, but they understand their specific role in the context of the organization and play it better than anyone else. I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Redskins are 1) better coached, 2) better culture, 3) better position to compete in 2022 than the NYG. Most of us can't see what type of culture a team has; just because Judge talked about it all the time doesn't mean that it was any better than any other team in the league.
but that said there's as big of a difference as there can be in having been a coach before. Flores has overachieved (imo) in all 3 of his NFL seasons, so that's probably the guy I'd go with. When Miami started 0-7 in 2019 after trading Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake and putting most of their best players on IR (esp Howard) I'd have bet $1m against them winning 5 games the rest of that year. Flores coached up a bunch of practice squaders to keep Tom Brady from getting a bye in his last season in NE. And then followed that year up with 2 winning seasons.
fascinating first decision for Joe Schoen.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
Correct. And he also knows Grier, whose greatest success was thought to be hiring Flores and from most reports they were in lockstep on pretty much all the big decisions (including Tua > Herbert).
He's going to have good insight into both options. Which is why it's a fascinating decision to see play out.
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
I disagree as HC. McAdoo as OC under Coughlin had a good scheme because TC insisted on balance, that they run the ball. McAdoo as HC completely abandoned that.
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Yeah, they played better later, but they had an easy schedule then.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Also it appears that some of the same issues that occured with the Giants offense occurred with the Dolphins.
Miami was only marginally better than the Giants.
We've tried that several times and failed miserably. Give me someone proven.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Excellent points about Miami's record this year. There was a real optical illusion to it for sure.
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In comment 15578720 ZogZerg said:
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Yeah, they played better later, but they had an easy schedule then.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
The Ravens game they blitzed the crap out of Lamar Jackson and had him completely shut down. Hollywood and Andrews both played and they entered the game 6-2 as an 8.5 point favorite, so not sure the injuries were as extensive as your thinking (that was later in the year).
Why did the Dolphins fire him? No idea - but I don't think im alone judging by the fact that most people found it to be shocking that he was fired. From everything out of the reporters in Miami who traditionally have the best sources (Barry Jackson) the primary reason was that he didn't get along with ownership.
Flores can be that type of leader for NYG i think.
He also got fired after 3 years of apparently doing a good job as the coach. How do we take that? You can write any story you want.
Is the Miami org a mess, full of back-stabbers with a GM focused solely on self-preservation? Maybe. Maybe he's a great coach who was the victim of a dysfunctional organization. Maybe.
Is he a tremendous asshole who can't work with a boss, can't have a respectful working relationship with his coaches, and can't manage players who don't toe the line? Was his personality the primary driver of his demise? Maybe.
We don't know much. And even if you could talk to people in the building, I'm sure you'd get conflicting stories. My experience is that when somebody has problems dealing with people that it's not the fault of the other people. But again, I don't know. And people can also grow and learn through their experiences.
I reflexively object to the whole "we need an asskicker who tells it like it is" approach. I don't think that's good leadership. I think getting along with people while still driving towards excellence is part of leadership. "Everybody else needs to toughen up so Brian flores can do his job" doesn't cut it for me.
So I'd say I'm skeptical on him. But he might be a good coach and I'd be OK if he's the hire.
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New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Excellent points about Miami's record this year. There was a real optical illusion to it for sure.
8-4 with Tua
1-4 without him
a real optical illusion.
here's another mind bender to consider. Brissett started the game against the Ravens and it was a 3-3 game when he got hurt in the 3rd Q. not a bad score considering they entered a near double digit underdog. Tua came in and led 3 scoring drives in the 2nd half including the td drive that put the game away with 2 min left in the 4th Q.
Brissett had been 11/23 for 156 before getting hurt.
Tua went 8/13 for 158 and a rushing td.
so it's almost like they played better...with their starting qb.
2020 - vegas o/u was 6 wins he won 10
2021 - vegas o/u was 9.5 he won 9
in year 1 the o/u didn't reflect the fact that they traded the few good players they had with most expecting they were tanking for tua (tunsil, fitzpatrick, drake).
in year 3 his starting QB missed 1/3 of the year.
im not saying he's a no brainer - there's plenty of questions that need to be answered, as there are with pretty much any candidate. but i do believe in a certain degree of "you are what your record is". he has a winning record over each of the past 2 years and was an overachiever given circumstances all 3.
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
I fully expect Flores to reject Jones if he becomes the HC.
I like the W-L trajectory but am having trouble getting over that.
during the season Stephen Ross seemed personally engaged in the trade talks re: Watson and publicly commented on it. There's a watson/flores connection that's well established also but it's hard to assign who was most urgent in that pursuit.
re: the tua selection in the first place, people forget that in 2019 the thinking was they were 'tanking for Tua'. The reports are that there was organizational alignment when the decision was ultimately made (flores and ownership included). Herbert has obviously changed a lot of minds after the fact but there's no strong evidence there was internal disagreement at the time.
re: tua/flores this year who knows what the reality is? if i was tua I'd be pretty pissed to be getting dragged through rumors the way he was, and hearing the owner/leadership of the organization comment publicly on Watson trade discussions. I thought Tua was a bust so he progressed a lot more on the field than i thought he would so he deserves credit for that. and he probably earned a different level of respect after the season than he had at the trade deadline when he was injured and didn't have the run of better play.
the organization collectively got the tua/herbert decision wrong but beyond that its tough to tell what was going on.
I like the W-L trajectory but am having trouble getting over that.
not Sy but here's my 2 cents.
positives - he was willing to make changes. and even making all those changes his offenses weren't terrible (over his 3 years in miami they averaged 5 more ppg than the nyg under judge). Tua did make progress in year 2. They drafted Waddle high and used him well.
negatives - he has a similar track record of being conservative with 4th downs and clearly a spotty record at hiring good OCs.
this is probably the biggest area of concern for me and the one that would have taken up the biggest block of time in the interview. what's the plan to build a successful, modern offense going forward? answering that question well is probably the key to the decision to hire him or not.
not likely. Dorsey is more likely taking Daboll's spot or following him.
What people talk about with "culture" are teams with talented rosters, teams that have competitive leaders who will buy into what the coaches say because they believe it will lead to wins. Without leaders on the team, talent isn't enough for sustained success.
Talent plus leaders equals wins, and winning leads to culture, because players will believe in coaches who put them in a system that works. Once your team starts
losing talent, then losing starts, and that belief evaporates, no matter what "culture" you had before.
If John Mara is to believed (a long stretch, I know), then remember what he said about Daniel Jones being screwed by the coaches John hired. Daboll is the obvious choice if Mara is serious about trying to fix DJ.
I don't know if that is possible, but there's no reason to think that hiring Flores will result in any improvement for DJ. That's why I think Daboll is a lock if he wants the job.
And that's why you bring in Ken Dorsey
Maybe John is willing to VS that much and reopen that can of worms.
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
I fully expect Flores to reject Jones if he becomes the HC.
Flores is not going to "reject Jones" THIS year after Mara and Schoen publicly endorsed the QB and talked about how Jones hasn't been given a fair shake.
I think they bring in a better backup/competition for Jones this year and replace him NEXT year.
I hope he hires him as the new Vikes HC.
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
In three years at Miami he cycled through 4 offensive coordinators. Last year the team website listed TWO names as offensive coordinator (George Godsey, Eric Studesville).
Chan Gailey, who had been out of football completely for 5 years until Flores called, and Chad O'Shea, a Neophyte offensive coordinator who got one year, was dismissed, and went back to being a WR coach.
What are the grounds for being confident he can pick an offensive staff if he couldn't do it in 3 years?
Daboll similarly has to hire an entire staff though it does seem a lot simpler since there are a lot of good options on the defensive side.
Flores can be that type of leader for NYG i think.
Did Tomlin ever get fired coming off of two winning seasons? Does Tomlin have a career losing record? Has Tomlin churned through OCs and OL coaches like junk mail?
They're not similar. You're just back to your regular justification stance.
as far as the similarities they are both primarily defensive assistants who also had experience coaching offense and became head coaches without extensive careers as coordinators. Each played college ball. Each got their shot in their mid 30's. Each with similar no-nonsense personas. Tomlin won coach of the year in his 2nd season as coach, Flores came in 3rd. Is there any other coach you can think of who has a more similar resume to Tomlin than Flores?
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
In three years at Miami he cycled through 4 offensive coordinators. Last year the team website listed TWO names as offensive coordinator (George Godsey, Eric Studesville).
Chan Gailey, who had been out of football completely for 5 years until Flores called, and Chad O'Shea, a Neophyte offensive coordinator who got one year, was dismissed, and went back to being a WR coach.
What are the grounds for being confident he can pick an offensive staff if he couldn't do it in 3 years?
Good points. Definitely not a great look that those names were the best he could muster.
The modern player and offense has to be taken in to consideration. This is a different breed of professional athletes, they aren't uneducated ill informed meat heads anymore who just shut up and play. A coach will be as successful as his approach to his players and those around him. The tough guy and culture talk are tired talking points of people who were raised differently than kids are now. Guess what, I was raised the exact same way, I used to share just this point of view, but the more people I work with and see succeeding are those able to adapt to those around them. It's not bending over backwards or being soft or whatever people want to call it. You have to value the individual and the collection of individuals. Robotic hard ass ways are a thing of the past. It's not the best way to get large groups motivated, you need flexible adaptable leadership with a clear vision in and X and O way how to win.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way. I'm in the minority on this and I know that disagreeing with our resident football expert is usually folly, and I respect the hell out of Sy, and his well thought out takes. Just not on this and I don't mean a shred of disrespect to him, Eric or anyone who agrees that Flores is the better choice. I just see it differently.
The modern player and offense has to be taken in to consideration. This is a different breed of professional athletes, they aren't uneducated ill informed meat heads anymore who just shut up and play. A coach will be as successful as his approach to his players and those around him. The tough guy and culture talk are tired talking points of people who were raised differently than kids are now. Guess what, I was raised the exact same way, I used to share just this point of view, but the more people I work with and see succeeding are those able to adapt to those around them. It's not bending over backwards or being soft or whatever people want to call it. You have to value the individual and the collection of individuals. Robotic hard ass ways are a thing of the past. It's not the best way to get large groups motivated, you need flexible adaptable leadership with a clear vision in and X and O way how to win.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way. I'm in the minority on this and I know that disagreeing with our resident football expert is usually folly, and I respect the hell out of Sy, and his well thought out takes. Just not on this and I don't mean a shred of disrespect to him, Eric or anyone who agrees that Flores is the better choice. I just see it differently.
Great post. I said something similar above that this "scare the players" POV is just outdated and feels like sticking a square peg into a round hole. Guys like McVey, Taylor, LaFleur, etc aren't interested in the tough guy/intimidation act. They are teachers who understand what makes the current players tick and find more intelligent ways to communicate and motivate.
I will be happy with Daboll, but I really want Flores. Assuming it's down to those two.
I will be happy with Daboll, but I really want Flores. Assuming it's down to those two.
Sy wrote this in his opening:
I'm not sure if Flores is the HC who can scare players or not. I just have a different POV than Sy and think this approach with today's players is a bit stale and outdated. And I'm a die-hard Parcells guy. But you have to adapt or die, and it seems the more practical approach with today's generation is being less hard ass and getting more creative with connecting.
I've read a lot today about Nathanial Hackett and the homework he does to stay current with today's players and their interests - music, social media, etc. Players really gravitate to him.
That said, I'm happy with one of Flores or Daboll. I definitely lean Flores. And who knows maybe they are waiting for someone else.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way.
This is where I am right now as a Giants fan. I am tired of this team constantly reaching into the past to devise a plan for the future. For me Flores feels like a throwback, not a step forward.
We can all appreciate toughness and the value that Flores leadership brings to the table, but the great Giants teams of the 80s, 90s and 2000s were great b/c their style of football matched up well against the rest of the NFL. Tough, hard nosed coaches like Parcells and Coughlin installed a similar hardworking ethos in their players b/c their style of play demanded it and that type of coaching matched up well with the rest of their peers who were equally tough and hard nosed.
The modern NFL does not value the same qualities. Bashing the other team into submission is not a valid means to achieving victory anymore. Teams still need to be tough, but the best teams value speed, ingenuity and aggressiveness. My fear with Flores is that the Giants would be following the same tired logic when they hired Judge, by prioritizing an idea of toughness without an actual plan to develop a competent offense that will result in more wins. Maybe I am wrong, but I would rather be wrong on a guy who has shown he can run a modern NFL offense.
For me it is a big ball of:
A quality x/o scheme
quality leadership from management and coaches to get the players to buy into it
quality leadership from players to help their peers buy into the system, and better themselves in executing the system
quality players who believe in the team's ability to execute.
Basically, a team that believes in itself.
A guy who is great at cracking the whip is one approach to knocking off silly stuff and steer the players into putting effort in.
But, the overall thing is having a system and a coaching staff that the players can believe in. A good system and good coaching leadership develops the 'culture', not the other way around. Quality players able to execute is also paramount. To develop a culture of winning, you need players and coaches who can win. Players will fall in line with the culture fast when W's start happening. There will not be a culture if the x/o's and players executing them are not up to the task.
For me it is a big ball of:
A quality x/o scheme
quality leadership from management and coaches to get the players to buy into it
quality leadership from players to help their peers buy into the system, and better themselves in executing the system
quality players who believe in the team's ability to execute.
Basically, a team that believes in itself.
A guy who is great at cracking the whip is one approach to knocking off silly stuff and steer the players into putting effort in.
But, the overall thing is having a system and a coaching staff that the players can believe in. A good system and good coaching leadership develops the 'culture', not the other way around. Quality players able to execute is also paramount. To develop a culture of winning, you need players and coaches who can win. Players will fall in line with the culture fast when W's start happening. There will not be a culture if the x/o's and players executing them are not up to the task.
It also helps if they can stay reasonably healthy..Well done
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
90% of the fanbase wants an upgrade to Jones ASAP. Hopefully Flores feels the same.
I fully expect Flores to reject Jones if he becomes the HC.
Getting this out the way, I will not be upset with Daboll, just ststing my preference and why. Daboll is a great candidate.
The modern player and offense has to be taken in to consideration. This is a different breed of professional athletes, they aren't uneducated ill informed meat heads anymore who just shut up and play. A coach will be as successful as his approach to his players and those around him. The tough guy and culture talk are tired talking points of people who were raised differently than kids are now. Guess what, I was raised the exact same way, I used to share just this point of view, but the more people I work with and see succeeding are those able to adapt to those around them. It's not bending over backwards or being soft or whatever people want to call it. You have to value the individual and the collection of individuals. Robotic hard ass ways are a thing of the past. It's not the best way to get large groups motivated, you need flexible adaptable leadership with a clear vision in and X and O way how to win.
Scheme is superior to anything right now in the modern NFL and you don't have to look any further than the 4 Conference finalists to see that borne out. Give me someone who has earned his shot and is well thought of by his players and peers. Daboll is exactly what this offense and team needs. Someone who figured it out on offense and didn't alienate people along the way. I'm in the minority on this and I know that disagreeing with our resident football expert is usually folly, and I respect the hell out of Sy, and his well thought out takes. Just not on this and I don't mean a shred of disrespect to him, Eric or anyone who agrees that Flores is the better choice. I just see it differently.
Just want to say how much I appreciate what you bring to the table on this site and am hoping you will continue to do so despite a very bleak outlook ahead...