Over the years I have realized where I do NOT have credibility or enough knowledge. I try to back away from those topics, just read and listen. Read and listen. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Picking a coach (and just as importantly, his staff) is such a deep and complex process. There is more to it than most of us know. One person I've had the luck to learn the game from when it comes to the league and its inner-workings gave me some insight to what it is going on inside NYG's walls. it is a fascinating listen but I still walked away from my latest conversation with him knowing that I truly do not know who is best for NYG.
So with that in mind, knowing my credibility here is limited...
I think Flores needs to be the guy. One thing I do know a lot about is workspace leadership, culture building, and multiple moving parts with separate desires being funneled into one common goal. That background I have helped lead me to the idea that Flores needs to be the guy.
Daboll may be a great HC someday. Perhaps he is even ready right now. But the most important unknown with him revolves around what I think is the most important element to being a coach, a Head Coach. NYG needs a personality, they need a culture. The takeaway I got from Schoen yesterday is a zero-tolerance for immaturity and off field issues that create a soft ground for the entire team to stand on. He wants rock-solid players and people in the buildin. 24/7/365.
To do that, you need to KNOW the Head Coach can carry that through. The head coach sets that culture more than anyone on a day in, day out basis. In the NFL, it needs to be a guy that can legitimately scare NFL players, push them, motivate them, mold them. Flores can do that and he has proven to do that. He doesn't hold back, he is brutally honest with players and coaches, and he creates a mindset where you don't want to let him down.
Can Daboll do that? Maybe, maybe not. You know Flores can.
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
Give me culture first, scheme second.
I've never heard a negative thing about Flores. Only that he tells it like it is 24/7. No sugar coating.
The world we live in is sensitive AF so maybe some can't handle it.
I think the stories are BS. To be blunt...too many people mistake hard honesty for "mean" comments. They're so used to finding sympathy because of social media and some just can't grasp that fact that life isn't fair, end of story. That is the world we live in now...but I won't go too deep into that because I don't want this thread deleted.
The GM has to be comfortable with the HC or this isn't going to work.
Derrell Bevel. He sucks. His last couple seasons in Seattle were abysmal and he got zero out of that Jax offense last year. Zero.
There is just too much evidence that he is a good and successful coach, and honestly I hope the Giants don't squander the opportunity that the Miami owner has given to us.
+1. If I had a preference heading into the process it actually was Flores, I just find it an odd pairing with Schoen given their shared history with Grier. Maybe Schoen thinks Grier is a shithead? Who knows. He did thank him by name in his PC, so that it is unlikely. I would just find it a strange pairing and I think it's important that the two are aligned. Give me who Schoen wants and hold him accountable for that hire.
Sy, you really only spoke of Daboll vs Flores. Do you feel the same about Flores compared to other long shot candidates like Pedersen or the unlikely Harbaugh?
Does anyone anticipate any surprise last minute candidates?
I do find it comforting that you believe in Flores. But I do have concerns about getting a good OC. What a terrible, unimaginative, steaming pile of crap we have seen the past two years. I think you are right on Flores. He will not take crap and he has an air of arrogance(in a good way) to him.
Really enjoy your impromptu posts.
Derrell Bevel. He sucks. His last couple seasons in Seattle were abysmal and he got zero out of that Jax offense last year. Zero.
What ties does Flores have to him?
If I could make this happen, I’d hire Flores as HC, with Daboll as his OC.
Dream on.
You hired an outsider for fresh perspective - how about you let him decide?
I think Flores is the better coach. My issue is not coaching related with him. Seems like he had a lot of issues with management and fired a lot of coaches. I wonder if Schoen is a little leery of that.
You want to be on the same page with the coach...flores is going to really have to have a lot of explanations for how things were handled off the field in Miami.
If I could make this happen, I’d hire Flores as HC, with Daboll as his OC.
Dream on.
I heard Bill O’Brien tied to Flores not Bevell or whomever you are talking about
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
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Do the stories of Flores being tough to get along with really not bother you? Or perhaps you view that as the standard post-exit-hatchet-job leaked by the former employer?
I think the stories are BS. To be blunt...too many people mistake hard honesty for "mean" comments. They're so used to finding sympathy because of social media and some just can't grasp that fact that life isn't fair, end of story. That is the world we live in now...but I won't go too deep into that because I don't want this thread deleted.
Well said and I agree with this. I look at it this way, the Giants have enjoyed 2 extended runs of competitiveness, each resulting in 2 Super Bowls. But only 2. And in both cases the Giants had a coach considered a hard ass, but held players and everyone in the org to a high standard.
Sure we had some good seasons with Fassel, who was more of a players coach. But I want a guy who’s going to nail Golladay to the bench for a half the next time he doesn’t go all out to make a catch. not someone who’s going to be bros with the players first, coach second
if it's Flores, then Mara overruled Schoen
Everyone trying to fit what happens into their preconceived notions (confirmation bias)
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Remember Mara's statement about "we failed with DJ". Daboll and his offensive scheme fits better with that statement and of course his relationship with Schoen.
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Please document the red flags. If you’re just making this shit up I suggest you take a break from posting.
I’m writing this as a Daboll supporter.
Quote:
Do the stories of Flores being tough to get along with really not bother you? Or perhaps you view that as the standard post-exit-hatchet-job leaked by the former employer?
I think the stories are BS. To be blunt...too many people mistake hard honesty for "mean" comments. They're so used to finding sympathy because of social media and some just can't grasp that fact that life isn't fair, end of story. That is the world we live in now...but I won't go too deep into that because I don't want this thread deleted.
Also did any of these stories come out before he got fired (minus the Tua stuff? Genuine question because I feel like they only came out after the fact and smell a lot like planted stuff to make the organization look better for firing him.
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But what matters is what Schoen wants. If he wants Daboll, I hope Daboll gets the gig.
+1. If I had a preference heading into the process it actually was Flores, I just find it an odd pairing with Schoen given their shared history with Grier. Maybe Schoen thinks Grier is a shithead? Who knows. He did thank him by name in his PC, so that it is unlikely. I would just find it a strange pairing and I think it's important that the two are aligned. Give me who Schoen wants and hold him accountable for that hire.
That article someone posted on the other thread intimated that it was not Grier and Flores that had an issue. It basically said Grier was more of an ass-kisser man to Ross (who he roasted in the article) and Flores was not... and Flores had very strong opinions (Tua) so Flores got the boot.
What do you say?
What do you say?
Certainly plausible (and likely lol), to my mind.
What do you say?
A lot of these "journalists" are shills for owners. I mean I hear how great an owner Khan is ffs.
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They arent hiring him without interviewing him (which is happening as we speak). If Flores is hired it means Schoen/Mara are comfortable with his explanations of what went down in Miami and comfortable thinking that it wont happen with the Giants
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Please document the red flags. If you’re just making this shit up I suggest you take a break from posting.
I’m writing this as a Daboll supporter.
What are you talking about? We all know what the "red flags" are with Flores. If you dont try reading up on it
Did you even read what I wrote? I said if Flores can explain what happened in Miami to Mara/Schoen, then they would be comfortable hiring him. If he cant, they wont hire him
What dont you get?
Quote:
They arent hiring him without interviewing him (which is happening as we speak). If Flores is hired it means Schoen/Mara are comfortable with his explanations of what went down in Miami and comfortable thinking that it wont happen with the Giants
Ive said that Flores needs a post-2006 Coughlin "change your ways" speech from Mara. Flores knows he cant be the same guy he was with coaches, players, and front office personnel. If he doenst know this, then he aint the guy
The Giants arent hiring Flores if they feel he wont clean up his "red flags"
The real problem in hiring Flores is the OC - O'Brien and Bevell are not inspiring choices
Remember Mara's statement about "we failed with DJ". Daboll and his offensive scheme fits better with that statement and of course his relationship with Schoen.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. I wasnt advocating for Flores, just saying this "red flag" stuff makes no sense because the Giants arent hiring him without interviewing him first. Reading comprehension here is at an alltime low
Obviously very good HCs have been fired (Belichick, Coughlin, Reid) and have had success on other teams.
I really, really hope the Giants are very thorough in their evaluation of Flores and, as others have mentioned, Schoen is fully confident he and Flores would be on the same page.
As I've posted many times, the likelihood that Flores would keep Graham as DC is also troubling to me.
Lots of folks whose opinions I value (and now Sy) are liking Flores. This is giving my objections to him second thoughts.
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But what matters is what Schoen wants. If he wants Daboll, I hope Daboll gets the gig.
The GM has to be comfortable with the HC or this isn't going to work.
That leads to the question of who is functionally operating as the GM. If it's Schoen, JonC confirmed on another thread that Schoen wants Daboll. If Schoen wants Daboll, that's who I want. If he wanted Flores, that's who I'd want.
From John Mara's 1/12 press conference (bold is mine):
Schoen wants Daboll according to JonC. Do what it takes to hire Daboll before Miami does. Give Schoen and Daboll what they want, and back off.
We just hired this guy to be the GM and we're already undercutting him?
That article someone posted on the other thread intimated that it was not Grier and Flores that had an issue. It basically said Grier was more of an ass-kisser man to Ross (who he roasted in the article) and Flores was not... and Flores had very strong opinions (Tua) so Flores got the boot.
I don't take what is coming out of either camp at face value. I don't know either party or have the facts. All I know is that there was contention there, enough to get one of those guys fired. I'd like Schoen to be driving this decision and I just see a very low likelihood that Flores is his guy. Schoen knows Grier, if he has respect for him, he's going to put more stock into his side of things. That's what matters, not what I think. I'm more invested in how they decide on the coach than the decision itself. Bad process is why this team has stayed at the bottom so long.
I’ve wanted Dan Quinn just because his experience in Atlanta was pretty decent. He has a winning record after his 5 years and took them to the SB one year and playoff two years. Plus, he seems to be a good DC too.
So, in my mind, Quinn has proven he can be a successful QB….Flores has somewhat shown he can be a successful HC by having a near .500 record.
I have my doubts that Flores can coexist with Schoen, but don’t have any doubts about Quinn/Schoen. Maybe I’ve read too much about Flores being hard to get along with his coaches.
Ultimately, I will trust Schoen to do what he thinks is best. He seems like a smart man.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.