Over the years I have realized where I do NOT have credibility or enough knowledge. I try to back away from those topics, just read and listen. Read and listen. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Picking a coach (and just as importantly, his staff) is such a deep and complex process. There is more to it than most of us know. One person I've had the luck to learn the game from when it comes to the league and its inner-workings gave me some insight to what it is going on inside NYG's walls. it is a fascinating listen but I still walked away from my latest conversation with him knowing that I truly do not know who is best for NYG.
So with that in mind, knowing my credibility here is limited...
I think Flores needs to be the guy. One thing I do know a lot about is workspace leadership, culture building, and multiple moving parts with separate desires being funneled into one common goal. That background I have helped lead me to the idea that Flores needs to be the guy.
Daboll may be a great HC someday. Perhaps he is even ready right now. But the most important unknown with him revolves around what I think is the most important element to being a coach, a Head Coach. NYG needs a personality, they need a culture. The takeaway I got from Schoen yesterday is a zero-tolerance for immaturity and off field issues that create a soft ground for the entire team to stand on. He wants rock-solid players and people in the buildin. 24/7/365.
To do that, you need to KNOW the Head Coach can carry that through. The head coach sets that culture more than anyone on a day in, day out basis. In the NFL, it needs to be a guy that can legitimately scare NFL players, push them, motivate them, mold them. Flores can do that and he has proven to do that. He doesn't hold back, he is brutally honest with players and coaches, and he creates a mindset where you don't want to let him down.
Can Daboll do that? Maybe, maybe not. You know Flores can.
Who will the OC be? Flores has been in the league a long time and has relationships. I am confident he has someone that can come in and create the system NYG needs on offense. He was in NE for 15+ years and there were a lot of quality assistants that walked through during that time.
Give me culture first, scheme second.
I don't get the part about HC's "scarring players". I struggle to see young coaches like McVey, Taylor, Kingsbury, Shanahan, Lafleur scarring anyone. I think it's about leveling with players and being consistent.
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a couple of days ago... gun to my head, I'd go with Flores. But what do I know?
I think Flores is the better coach. My issue is not coaching related with him. Seems like he had a lot of issues with management and fired a lot of coaches. I wonder if Schoen is a little leery of that.
You want to be on the same page with the coach...flores is going to really have to have a lot of explanations for how things were handled off the field in Miami.
My issue with Flores is that although he has the hardened characteristics Sy outlined to make demands of his players and follow through if they don't abide by the rules, often times that type of personality doesn't want to follow HIS boss, but rather wants to control everything.
A wide range of opinions is good, but in the end one person makes the decision. It seems like Flores didn't want to do that in Miami (see: DeShaun Watson). The question would be, how long before Flores doesn't agree with a decision made by Schoen, and it begins to snowball.
I don't get the part about HC's "scarring players". I struggle to see young coaches like McVey, Taylor, Kingsbury, Shanahan, Lafleur scarring anyone. I think it's about leveling with players and being consistent.
Yes exactly. Don't see how they are scaring anyone. Seems like guys love playing for them as they almost seem equals.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Very smart post right here.
Or he is the GM in title only, and is in reality a lesser voice under the actual people playing GM.
Either way, there's no perfect candidate and the question is who is the right guy for THIS situation. You make some good points as to why its Flores. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if he's our coach within 24 hours.
and while it doesn't deal with what the Head Coach needs to bring to the table, I think a head coach who makes everyone in the locker room take losing PERSONALLY is maybe what Brian Flores brings to the table:
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Many years ago, back in the 1970s, Harry Carson got so sick of losing he sorta went off the rails and made some crazy remarks about his next options in life, or something like that. Maybe it was just another era, but our Hall of Fame middle linebacker took losing personally. I'm not sure there's much of that on this current roster. Our new General Manager, Joe Shoen, needs to find such players in the upcoming Draft.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Then when don't you want Matt Nagy as HC?
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
My concerns with Daboll are that he was working with Josh Allen and while that’s kind of a plus due to Allen’s enormous progress I think it can also be a bit of a neutral because Allen is so obviously talented. It’s not like he took a middling talent and crafted a winner. Still, to be fair, he did craft a winner, or at least didn’t get in his way. I didn’t see a lot of the Bills but in their biggest game of the season last week I was not impressed with the game plan. It seems like Allen was at his best working off schedule and I don’t imagine that was the game plan. Worse, the game plan seemed to leave out the most import playmaker, aside from Allen who seemed to running head first into the defense instead of getting the ball to Diggs and lil’ Cole Beasley.
My other concern is that he hasn’t been an NFL HC. I get the idea of getting someone on the way up, a la Tomlin, but it’s still a huge risk that Daboll will at the very least need time to make that leap to HC. The one thing the next Giants HC will NOT have is time.
Finally, I think Flores is simply more qualified. He’s been a winner in the NFL as an HC. He can hit the ground running and he’s still young enough to learn and grow with the organization.
Just because someone failed at building a culture AND a good football team doesn't mean it is a bad approach. They didn't have the right captain steering the ship. Judge was in over his head and Gettleman got a job because he was friends with the owner. They're simply not good at what they do.
That would be like me saying hiring an offensive coach is a bad idea because:
-Chip Kelly was an offensive guru, didn't work.
-Bill O'Brien was an offensive guru, didn't work
-Urban Meyer was an offensive guru, didn't work
-Matt Nagy was an offensive guru, didn't work
-Josh McDaniels was an offensive guru, didn't work
We can do this all day
For example, the rumor that he stopped talking to assistant coaches halfway thru the year… I mean come on.
I lean toward the idea that the best evidence someone can be a good head coach is being a good head coach in the recent past.
With young coaches with no prior experience, it seems like a crapshoot (giants 3rd round picks)
Wait a minute!
Do you mean we “hired the wrong GM, “ or John Mara never changed his spots and is making the final decision on the Head Coach thus cutting Schoen off at the knees.
What people talk about with "culture" are teams with talented rosters, teams that have competitive leaders who will buy into what the coaches say because they believe it will lead to wins. Without leaders on the team, talent isn't enough for sustained success.
Talent plus leaders equals wins, and winning leads to culture, because players will believe in coaches who put them in a system that works. Once your team starts losing talent, then losing starts, and that belief evaporates, no matter what "culture" you had before.
If John Mara is to believed (a long stretch, I know), then remember what he said about Daniel Jones being screwed by the coaches John hired. Daboll is the obvious choice if Mara is serious about trying to fix DJ.
I don't know if that is possible, but there's no reason to think that hiring Flores will result in any improvement for DJ. That's why I think Daboll is a lock if he wants the job.
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
But he also claimed to have cleaned up the culture and scapegoated ex players as culture problems. Just because he drafted guys who may be culture issues doesn’t mean Gettleman didn’t try to come like he was all about culture.
It’s irrelevant because the only culture is winning.
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
That would probably come up in the interview.
In the SB era, Giants have won 4, competed in another, and were competitive for a good part of the mid 80s to 2012.
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In comment 15578451 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
I think Toney is a weird guy, maybe a little misguided, I don't think he's bad. I think the point Sy was originally making was that he had some red flags yet Gettleman still drafted him, meaning that even though he claimed the culture thing, he was willing to take a risk on someone for talent.
In reality I agree with you, part of being a good coach is knowing how to corral these types of players who aren't choir boys. Imagine if Parcells didn't want to deal with LT or Jimmy Johnson couldn't handle his entire team...
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In comment 15578451 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
This. Toney may be an idiot and say some dumb things but what makes him a culture problem?
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In comment 15578451 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 15578406 bluepepper said:
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cleaned the locker room of the "bad guys" his first year or so. We hired the adult in the room candidate for HC. Translated to zero on the field. Because those guys and the locker room culture weren't the problem. It was not enough talent at key positions and crappy coaching.
Look at the remaining HC's - Shanahan, McVay, Taylor and Reid - none of them are kick ass, zero tolerance type guys. They're damned good offensive minds. 3 of 4 have stud QB's, the other is a running game guru.
Really disappointed we didn't even pursue the young OC's like McDaniel, O'Connell, Leftwich and Hackett and instead may be looking for another adult in the room type.
Wrong.
He drafted Toney in the 1st round.
Deandre Baker...
Gave Kelvin Benjamin a second chance...
If there's an assumption that Toney is a "bad guy," that may be part of why the Giants haven't been good in a long time. He may be a guy the Giants just don't know how to relate to, coach, mentor, or motivate. Maybe the primary cultural issues with the Giants organization is that it doesn't know how to determine just who the bad guys really are.
And I'd also venture that if Lawrence Taylor were entering the NFL today, he would be considered by some to be a "bad guy."
This is not a talent laden roster that just needs a tweak. This is still a bad team lacking true talent up and down the roster. We need a guy that can teach these guys how to win despite not being as good. I think Miami has done well with the roster they have. Daboll only seems to have done well this year and their O is stacked and they had a really good D.
From what I've read about Daboll, I think he can be that guy too. He has been described as intense, with a fiery personality, but we have no idea if that will translate into the HC's office. We need more certainty at this point.
If you have spent time in locker rooms from both sides of the spectrum, you'd recognize the importance.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
It seems guys like McVay, Taylor, Staley, LaFleur take a softer approach and are having terrific success.
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
Not to pull out an old cliche but I 100% believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It doesn't mean that great strategy & scheme are critical; it just means that it is all for naught if the culture isn't strong.
One of the areas where I completely disagree about culture was all of the "clown show" talk. Some of the best teams I've been a part of had fights in practice; people are competitive and want to win. If you practice like you play then you are going to have people ready to go on Sundays. Some of the worst teams I played on were best of friends but didn't have what it took to win. Which team would you rather play on?
Taking specific incidents (i.e. Redskins sideline fight) and claiming that it is indicative of a bad culture is just wrong. Great teams don't always get along, but they understand their specific role in the context of the organization and play it better than anyone else. I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Redskins are 1) better coached, 2) better culture, 3) better position to compete in 2022 than the NYG. Most of us can't see what type of culture a team has; just because Judge talked about it all the time doesn't mean that it was any better than any other team in the league.
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
That would probably come up in the interview.
Then does he get disqualified if he says jones needs to be replaced?
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In comment 15578360 ajr2456 said:
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Due to his dislike of Tua, what’s going to happen if Flores comes here and has the same feelings about Jones and wants an upgrade this year?
That would probably come up in the interview.
Then does he get disqualified if he says jones needs to be replaced?
If says he can't work with Jones, he wouldn't be in "lockstep" with the GM, so yeah.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
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In comment 15578605 RollBlue said:
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
Not to pull out an old cliche but I 100% believe that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It doesn't mean that great strategy & scheme are critical; it just means that it is all for naught if the culture isn't strong.
One of the areas where I completely disagree about culture was all of the "clown show" talk. Some of the best teams I've been a part of had fights in practice; people are competitive and want to win. If you practice like you play then you are going to have people ready to go on Sundays. Some of the worst teams I played on were best of friends but didn't have what it took to win. Which team would you rather play on?
Taking specific incidents (i.e. Redskins sideline fight) and claiming that it is indicative of a bad culture is just wrong. Great teams don't always get along, but they understand their specific role in the context of the organization and play it better than anyone else. I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Redskins are 1) better coached, 2) better culture, 3) better position to compete in 2022 than the NYG. Most of us can't see what type of culture a team has; just because Judge talked about it all the time doesn't mean that it was any better than any other team in the league.
but that said there's as big of a difference as there can be in having been a coach before. Flores has overachieved (imo) in all 3 of his NFL seasons, so that's probably the guy I'd go with. When Miami started 0-7 in 2019 after trading Tunsil, Fitzpatrick, Drake and putting most of their best players on IR (esp Howard) I'd have bet $1m against them winning 5 games the rest of that year. Flores coached up a bunch of practice squaders to keep Tom Brady from getting a bye in his last season in NE. And then followed that year up with 2 winning seasons.
fascinating first decision for Joe Schoen.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
Correct. And he also knows Grier, whose greatest success was thought to be hiring Flores and from most reports they were in lockstep on pretty much all the big decisions (including Tua > Herbert).
He's going to have good insight into both options. Which is why it's a fascinating decision to see play out.
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but I'd stress scheme first, culture second. IMO, you can have great culture, if your schemes suck, it's not going to matter. I think good schemes and coaching can overcome some culture issues, which in this modern era, there will be some culture issues that arise regardless of what you do.
McAdoo had a very good scheme
I disagree as HC. McAdoo as OC under Coughlin had a good scheme because TC insisted on balance, that they run the ball. McAdoo as HC completely abandoned that.
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Yeah, they played better later, but they had an easy schedule then.
For all you saying Miami has more talent, then what do we expect for the Giants?
Another team predicted to make a jump this year, but didn't.
You realize they won their first game with Tua then he got hurt early in game 2 and that put them on the losing streak?
And then he came back and they went 7-4 with him the rest of the year? With solid wins against Baltimore, NE, NO.
Their vegas o/u last year was 9.5 so 9 wasn't exactly a disastrous outcome given their starting QB missed 5 games.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Also it appears that some of the same issues that occured with the Giants offense occurred with the Dolphins.
Miami was only marginally better than the Giants.
We've tried that several times and failed miserably. Give me someone proven.
New England was the only solid win. Ravens and Saints were decimated with injuries.
Why did the Dolphins fire him again?
Giants new GM better have good connections left in Miami so he can understand why everything went south.
Excellent points about Miami's record this year. There was a real optical illusion to it for sure.