It is surprising that the vast majority of BBIers have not been rooting for Brian Daboll.
Why?
Because the vast majority of BBIers have been kicking and screaming about having an independent General Manger who gets to pick his own Head Coach, and the selection of Daboll over Flores fulfills that collective BBI wish.
No?
So, are you saying that the vast majority of BBIers have not been vehment about Mara staying out of the Head Coach selection process, and that the decision should be left strictly to "football people"... i.e. Joe Schoen?
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That's what you made up. Fitting "BBI" into one group is ridiculous. There are many layers to this.
So, are you saying that the vast majority of BBIers have not been vehment about Mara staying out of the Head Coach selection process, and that the decision should be left strictly to "football people"... i.e. Joe Schoen?
The vast majority of BBIers have been vehement about Mara injecting himself into the process with a clearly unqualified coach who would be a lackey for him and his family (see Jason Garrett) or does not understand how games are won in today’s NFL (also Jason Garrett).
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In comment 15579440 robbieballs2003 said:
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That's what you made up. Fitting "BBI" into one group is ridiculous. There are many layers to this.
So, are you saying that the vast majority of BBIers have not been vehment about Mara staying out of the Head Coach selection process, and that the decision should be left strictly to "football people"... i.e. Joe Schoen?
The vast majority of BBIers have been vehement about Mara injecting himself into the process with a clearly unqualified coach who would be a lackey for him and his family (see Jason Garrett) or does not understand how games are won in today’s NFL (also Jason Garrett).
So, are you saying that -- so long as Mara makes smart recommendations / decisions -- it's OK for him to inject himself into the process? Am I reading that right?
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In comment 15579440 robbieballs2003 said:
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That's what you made up. Fitting "BBI" into one group is ridiculous. There are many layers to this.
So, are you saying that the vast majority of BBIers have not been vehment about Mara staying out of the Head Coach selection process, and that the decision should be left strictly to "football people"... i.e. Joe Schoen?
The vast majority of BBIers have been vehement about Mara injecting himself into the process with a clearly unqualified coach who would be a lackey for him and his family (see Jason Garrett) or does not understand how games are won in today’s NFL (also Jason Garrett).
Well without all the superfluous bullshit, this is correct. Mara and Tisch have blown the last bunch of hirings. Nobody wants Mara influencing the pick.
However, what some are missing or surmising is that Flores is only here because of Mara and not because Flores is a really good HC that Schoen's former team played against twice a year for the last three year. So Schoen could see first hand what Flores was doing with MIami.
Also, Daboll is an offense minded coach and the Giants offense is pure garbage, clueless, inept and incompetent. Flores is a defense coach and the Giants defense was mostly decent(kindly put). So many think it is more important to get the offense into the 2020's and maybe score more than 12 points per game.
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In comment 15579447 M.S. said:
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In comment 15579440 robbieballs2003 said:
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That's what you made up. Fitting "BBI" into one group is ridiculous. There are many layers to this.
So, are you saying that the vast majority of BBIers have not been vehment about Mara staying out of the Head Coach selection process, and that the decision should be left strictly to "football people"... i.e. Joe Schoen?
The vast majority of BBIers have been vehement about Mara injecting himself into the process with a clearly unqualified coach who would be a lackey for him and his family (see Jason Garrett) or does not understand how games are won in today’s NFL (also Jason Garrett).
So, are you saying that -- so long as Mara makes smart recommendations / decisions -- it's OK for him to inject himself into the process? Am I reading that right?
He's the owner. Anyone thinking he's just going to go on vacation and never come back is completely ignorant. Name one owner in any business that doesn't know what is going on in his business. It is collaborative as we've heard many times. The owners will be involved but Schoen gets the final decision as has been stated. What is wrong with that? If Schoen is a pussy and gives in to others over his own gut then he's the wrong guy just as is a GM who doesn't seek other opinions and info. Collaboration is the key but so is Schoen making the right decisonss.
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In comment 15579452 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15579447 M.S. said:
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In comment 15579440 robbieballs2003 said:
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That's what you made up. Fitting "BBI" into one group is ridiculous. There are many layers to this.
So, are you saying that the vast majority of BBIers have not been vehment about Mara staying out of the Head Coach selection process, and that the decision should be left strictly to "football people"... i.e. Joe Schoen?
The vast majority of BBIers have been vehement about Mara injecting himself into the process with a clearly unqualified coach who would be a lackey for him and his family (see Jason Garrett) or does not understand how games are won in today’s NFL (also Jason Garrett).
So, are you saying that -- so long as Mara makes smart recommendations / decisions -- it's OK for him to inject himself into the process? Am I reading that right?
He's the owner. Anyone thinking he's just going to go on vacation and never come back is completely ignorant. Name one owner in any business that doesn't know what is going on in his business. It is collaborative as we've heard many times. The owners will be involved but Schoen gets the final decision as has been stated. What is wrong with that? If Schoen is a pussy and gives in to others over his own gut then he's the wrong guy just as is a GM who doesn't seek other opinions and info. Collaboration is the key but so is Schoen making the right decisonss.
I agree with all of this. Makes sense to me.
My own view of Mara-involvement vs non-involvement, and Flores vs Daboll, and Schoen vs Mara is pretty simple. Doesn't interest me much at all.
But, clearly, it does for a significant number of BBIers and my reading of the collective viewpoints boiled down to the thread-starter (at least in my mind.) Sure, it was a simplification. But it made sense to me on a cold Friday morning at 7:11am. (:-)
If Brian Flores is the choice, there are going to be numerous BBIers who will express the nagging doubt about John Mara inserting himself (too much) into the Head Coach decision-making process.
Depend upon it.
Good point. While Schoen may have liked Daboll's offense with Allen in Buffalo, it does not necessarily mean Daboll's overall vision matches Schoen's. Flores' vision for the Giants future may more closely align with where Schoen thinks the Giants need to go.
Let's face it, we as Giants fans are mostly a defensive minded group and most likely so is Mara. Giants' history is more about solid defense and grind them down offense. This could very well be why Mara seems(we do not have a clue) to like Flores. But WTF knows.
link?
(:-)
Your point is well taken. Maybe Brian Daboll doesn't want to come here even if both Schoen and Mara WANT him. If that's the case, who could blame Brian Daboll?
So, if he's not selected then it seems like ownership has already influenced the concept of the new GM rebuilding the team. And, I think most BBI is against ownership butting in again.
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end up with Flores instead of Daboll it doesn't necessarily mean John Mara trumped Schoen. I heard early on in the process that Daboll is the guy the Giants want (granted this was before the Flores interview), but that doesn't necessarily mean the Giants are Daboll's top choice. Wouldn't immediately jump on the John Mara overruled Schoen if Flores ends up being the guy.
Your point is well taken. Maybe Brian Daboll doesn't want to come here even if both Schoen and Mara WANT him. If that's the case, who could blame Brian Daboll?
He would not be still in the queue if he didn't want to be here.
So, if he's not selected then it seems like ownership has already influenced the concept of the new GM rebuilding the team. And, I think most BBI is against ownership butting in again.
I think it was fairly obvious Daboll was Schoen's guy when the process began.
However, I do not think it's as obvious today, and possible Daboll has not held serve over this past week.
BBI should be against ownership negatively overriding Schoen's choices. But do not incorrectly presume that is what happened if Daboll isn't chosen...
If he wants the Buffalo or KC model he may lean towards Daboll
Although I think he picks Daboll. I would not be surprised if he goes Flores. His early years he was influenced by Parcels and he was a Bavaro fan.
As a Giant fan I prefer tough defense and smash mouth football. Similar to Ravens and Steelers.
You have to admit that Flores has a better resume and more experience in pretty much this exact situation.
If Brian Flores is the choice, there are going to be numerous BBIers who will express the nagging doubt about John Mara inserting himself (too much) into the Head Coach decision-making process.
Depend upon it.
And if Daboll is the choice, and he fails, people here will bitch about Schoen not running a legitimate HC search and just hiring the guy he wanted before the interviews began. (Just like when Mara did when he hired Gettleman.)
The thing that bothers me about the Schoen/Daboll package deal is that I've watched 3 interviews of Schoen and every time he's been asked the question..."What do you look for in a HC?" he answers it the same way.
The very first thing he says, every time, is that he's looking for a HC that he can work with. That just doesn't seem like it should be the first thing any GM loks for in a HC.
I also would expect that he had "a guy" in mind prior to the hiring. But, if in fact he is as good as he is purported to be, he has an open mind and may very likely change it should he see something that he prefers in Flores.
Yes, Sy is not 100% correct all the time. But he has certainly been better then the Giants. I have to admit I was squarely in Daboll's corner and after reading that post I have moved both Daboll and Flores closer together and will be happy with either.
Maybe I ve misinterpreted some posts. But I distinctly got the impression that some feel a Flores hire is another example of Mara forcing a coach, like he did with Garrett
It s one reason I would like the Daboll choice, it would be strike 4 on the “Mara theories” of how this off season was going to be handled, and we can move on from that.
Plus, the, “It s an offensive league, and the Giants offense needs fixing” theory resonates with me.
All we have so far is beat writers connecting dots. Schoen was in Buffalo, Daboll was in Buffalo, maybe they go together.
Sometimes that's true...and sometimes...it's not. He also may have doubts about Daboll's ability to make the leap BECAUSE of his close association with him.
What we do know is that it seems impossible that Schoen or others went through the hiring process without articulating who their preferences were for the HC. As maligned as Mara's decisions/meddling are, it just strikes me as particularly odd that he would hire Schoen off of "I want Daboll" if what Mara wanted was Flores. Frankly, what many perceived as meddling (i.e., bringing in Flores before the Schoen hire) may have actually been a direct result of what Schoen said in his interview and moving quickly to not get beat to the punch on a coach like they did the last time around.
Its honestly all speculation. Nobody knows exactly who Schoen's guy really is or isn't. Totally fine with taking the position of not giving the Giants ownership the benefit of the doubt, but also think people need to acknowledge that the best we can do is wait and see, because we don't actually have any of the facts.
This is a silly line of reasoning. There are successful first time coaches and there are failure retreads. Each candidate is his own guy. I'd argue that the biggest problem with the Giants processes over the past few years has been a tendency to over correct for past failures.
I have my doubts about both Flores and Daboll. But we need to evaluate them for their own strengths and weaknesses, not those of Judge, Mac, or Shurmur.
If Brian Flores is the choice, there are going to be numerous BBIers who will express the nagging doubt about John Mara inserting himself (too much) into the Head Coach decision-making process.
Depend upon it.
Indeed this will happen. I think BBIers are not considering that from the very beginning, during Shoen’s interview, Ownership and Shoen discussed potential HC candidates as to whether they on board with Flores. Don’t you think Shoen would not take the job if they forced Flores on him upon disagreement?
But, if you factor in the past years of behaviors and decisions of Mara, I don't see how you push it aside as absolutely nothing to see here. YMMV
That said, I'm not losing a minute of sleep over it. The Giants will suck until someone figures out how to fix it, and part of it will be to get the football dummies out of decision making.
So, if he's not selected then it seems like ownership has already influenced the concept of the new GM rebuilding the team. And, I think most BBI is against ownership butting in again.
...not exactly right. - ( New Window )
Today or tomorrow they will likely announce either Flores or Daboll and half of BBI will complain about it and half will love it. Either way, people will retain their allegiance to their theories and their beliefs despite no knowledge one was or the other.
All that matters is what starts happening on the field. We don't know the process so all we can do is evaluate the results.
Today or tomorrow they will likely announce either Flores or Daboll and half of BBI will complain about it and half will love it. Either way, people will retain their allegiance to their theories and their beliefs despite no knowledge one was or the other.
My apologies
All that matters is what starts happening on the field. We don't know the process so all we can do is evaluate the results.
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The spectrum of opinion here runs all the way from Sith Lord Mara using mind tricks to control the universe, to Joe Schoen as the new sherrif in town who starts his day by giving Mara swirlies in his own office toilet.
Today or tomorrow they will likely announce either Flores or Daboll and half of BBI will complain about it and half will love it. Either way, people will retain their allegiance to their theories and their beliefs despite no knowledge one was or the other.
My apologies
All that matters is what starts happening on the field. We don't know the process so all we can do is evaluate the results.
My apologies re the other post. My bad
So, if he's not selected then it seems like ownership has already influenced the concept of the new GM rebuilding the team. And, I think most BBI is against ownership butting in again.
But what if Flores won over schoen and schoen actually picked Flores? It will immediately be of schoen gave in to Mara he’s a pussy. Or if he takes daboll the other half of bbi will be like he only picked his guy.
Either way he’s screwed. The only way he can avoid that is to pick Frazier then that would blow up bbi
Just so you know, you are the LEAST person who is capable of trolling..I misunderstood and reacted
You can see it coming a mile away.
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What do they have in common ... none of them had any prior demonstrated accomplishment being a HC ... why would we expect the results to be in any different? Especially with a first time GM.
This is a silly line of reasoning. There are successful first time coaches and there are failure retreads. Each candidate is his own guy. I'd argue that the biggest problem with the Giants processes over the past few years has been a tendency to over correct for past failures.
I have my doubts about both Flores and Daboll. But we need to evaluate them for their own strengths and weaknesses, not those of Judge, Mac, or Shurmur.
Let me rephrase ... after the past 6 years, I do not want to go thru another learning curve of a 1st time HC especially with everything else swirling around the team. New GM, questions up and down the roster, etc. We have no idea who Daboll can recruit for his staff, nor how he’ll handle the NY and media pressure or his game mgmt / sideline skills. I simply want someone who’s been there before and is both young and smart enough to learn from previous mistakes. Everybody talks about Daboll progress with Allen, and for that he deserves praise ... but in this role, how much time will he really be able to spend with DJ ? Even Shurnur had some previous experience as an interim HC.
You can see it coming a mile away.
Yep. That is why am not going to get worked up over this. Regardless, there is going to be a conspiracy theory. All I want is for the Giants to start winning on a regular basis. I don’t give a flying shit who they select.
But, if you factor in the past years of behaviors and decisions of Mara, I don't see how you push it aside as absolutely nothing to see here. YMMV
That said, I'm not losing a minute of sleep over it. The Giants will suck until someone figures out how to fix it, and part of it will be to get the football dummies out of decision making.
IMO, there is a difference between Mara forcing his choice on Schoen verses having healthy discussion. Mara saying, before we dive in, are you sure about this should not be out of bounds --it should be encouraged, IMO provided Schoen has the final say, which is the expectation.
We don't know who Schoen prefers.
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then Schoen was locked into him the whole time and the rest was window dressing and if it's Flores then Mara stuck his nose in and Schoen is a puppet.
You can see it coming a mile away.
Yep. That is why am not going to get worked up over this. Regardless, there is going to be a conspiracy theory. All I want is for the Giants to start winning on a regular basis. I don’t give a flying shit who they select.
As a card-carrying member of the Non-Conspiracy Theorist Association of America, I would be interested in how Daboll being hired in any capacity constitutes a conspiracy?
Look forward to reading from any chucklehead poster that wants to take on that position on this slow Friday...
But you add the BC factor in and now it's pretty easy to see what's happening. Not great.
Uber, not suggesting the vacuum, fully understand ownership will play a significant role. But, at a minimum it has the appearance of being the process without the new GM even hired, letting alone running point.
Mara was asked why he reached out to Flores personally last week before the Giants had hired a GM. He said every one of the Giants' GM finalists had Flores on the list of prospective head coach candidates, and he knew Flores had interviewed other places.
So Mara wanted to make sure Flores knew of the Giants' interest.
“I reached out to him because I know he was on all the candidates that we interviewed for general manager, he was on each of their lists,” Mara said. “I see he’s been interviewing elsewhere, and I just wanted to let him know: ‘Before you make a decision, just know that we have interest in you. Make whatever decision you feel like you need to make for you and your family, but just know that we do have interest in you. And once I get the general manager search done, we will be back to you.’ So that was the purpose of that call.”
Uber, not suggesting the vacuum, fully understand ownership will play a significant role. But, at a minimum it has the appearance of being the process without the new GM even hired, letting alone running point.
Realize some of you all are adding up the prior bungles when there is new chance to cry foul, but this one's weak imv...