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Daboll minus Josh Allen

5BowlsSoon : 1/28/2022 9:52 am
This has been brought up by an individual post or two but I think it needs to be brought in the foreground.

Question: Does anyone here think you would be excited to have Daboll as our HC if Daniel Jones were his QB in Buffalo instead of Josh Allen?

Me personally: I’m 99% certain, I wouldn’t be because I know Buffalo would not be a great team….just a good team. And they certainly would not have had those offensive explosions we just witnessed these past two weeks that are fresh on our minds.
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For people saying Daboll needs to mold the QB  
Rudy5757 : 1/28/2022 10:35 am : link
The problem with that is he is the Head Coach not the OC. So he has to hire the coach that is going to build the QB. As the Head Coach he wont have the time to devote to one player. josh Allen didnt become great until he had talent around him. the Gants are far from having a lot of talent on O.

I keep getting caught up in a lot of quotes from coaches, great coaches have great players. Not a lot the other way around. Flores seems to have been successful despite having average players. One thing that Sy keeps bringing up is the Star WR. One thing Miani does have is the Star WR with Waddle having 104 Receptions. Evan Engram led the Giants with 46 Receptions and Toney Led the WRs with 39 Rec.
Also look at the Eagles, Devonta Smith almost had 1000 Yards Rec and they made the playoffs. Something to think about.
RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2022 10:37 am : link
In comment 15579729 Producer said:
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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:


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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.



Allen was never a bust.


Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.
RE: RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Producer : 1/28/2022 10:41 am : link
In comment 15579805 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15579729 Producer said:


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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:


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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.



Allen was never a bust.



Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.


Nobody judges a QB based on his rookie year. Allen improved steadily from year 1 to year 2. And then the big leap from Year 2 to Year 3. That is the trend of a good player, not a bust.
RE: For people saying Daboll needs to mold the QB  
Producer : 1/28/2022 10:42 am : link
In comment 15579800 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
The problem with that is he is the Head Coach not the OC. So he has to hire the coach that is going to build the QB. As the Head Coach he wont have the time to devote to one player. josh Allen didnt become great until he had talent around him. the Gants are far from having a lot of talent on O.

I keep getting caught up in a lot of quotes from coaches, great coaches have great players. Not a lot the other way around. Flores seems to have been successful despite having average players. One thing that Sy keeps bringing up is the Star WR. One thing Miani does have is the Star WR with Waddle having 104 Receptions. Evan Engram led the Giants with 46 Receptions and Toney Led the WRs with 39 Rec.
Also look at the Eagles, Devonta Smith almost had 1000 Yards Rec and they made the playoffs. Something to think about.


Allen would be great with or without talent. His traits are unique and great. Allen learned how to play in this league. That's the difference in the player.
RE: RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Section331 : 1/28/2022 10:44 am : link
In comment 15579805 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15579729 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:


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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.



Allen was never a bust.



Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.


Come on, you don't call someone a bust after one year, especially at QB. Was Peyton a bust after his rookie year? Eli?
RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Jimmy Googs : 1/28/2022 10:50 am : link
In comment 15579729 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.



Allen was never a bust.



Very much agree Producer. These ares some good articles going thru his rookie year in Buffalo and his ups and downs. Allen had rookie struggles but more than enough wow-moments that anybody with a football head could see his star was on this rise versus busting out...

https://theathleteshub.org/rookie-review-qb-josh-allen/

https://thebuffalofanatics.com/josh-allens-rookie-year-revisited/
A poor rookie season with lots of mistakes  
Mike from Ohio : 1/28/2022 10:57 am : link
is generally the expectation for a rookie QB, especially coming from a small school. To say John Allen was a bust based on his rookie year is an absurd take.
RE: RE: RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2022 11:00 am : link
In comment 15579830 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15579805 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15579729 Producer said:


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In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:


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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.



Allen was never a bust.



Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.



Come on, you don't call someone a bust after one year, especially at QB. Was Peyton a bust after his rookie year? Eli?


No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.
I think there is more time to let that work itself out than we think  
aka dbrny : 1/28/2022 11:40 am : link
They are not going to be a SuperBowl contender this year. They can afford to let Jones play out his contract year. They have a 5th year option available that they can use if needed.

They can then use this year to upgrade the weak spots on the lines and use the season as Jones' last chance to show he has the stuff (or not).

As insurance, they can bring in a vet or draft someone with potential if the draft falls right for them. That then gives them room, as you suggest, to hunt for someone that maybe has the right tools but is from a small school or has some question marks.
I have to imagine Daboll...  
bw in dc : 1/28/2022 11:44 am : link
is no fool and realizes he's in this position to get an NFL HC opportunity because he's worked with a generational talent like Allen. While Daboll absolutely deserves credit for being part of the project management team that developed Allen - along with Dorsey and Jordan Palmer - I have to believe that he is self-aware enough to understand that Allen saves plays with his uncanny ability to improvise. And you really can't teach that part.

So, if I'm him, I want a job with either (1) a good QB already in place or (2) a plan in place to acquire a good QB (draft/free agency) as soon as possible. Because the longer you can't solve for the QB the quicker you will be out of a job.

And despite what Schoen and Mara seem to think, that Jones is a good QB already in place, does Daboll really want to trust that and hitch his wagon to Jones? That is quite a leap of faith at this point.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Section331 : 1/28/2022 11:50 am : link
In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.


Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.
I think he if did not have Allen  
Lines of Scrimmage : 1/28/2022 11:56 am : link
People would have a significant amount more concern as to why the Giants would be considering him.

He coached a offense that won a NC at Bama for one year. Guess what, whoever Saban plugs in has (except O'Brien who has one year on staff). Other than that he seems like a lot of run of the mill NFL coaches who bounced around without really making a case he would be a good HC imv. I don't think Jones would change that.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Producer : 1/28/2022 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15579830 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 15579805 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15579729 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15579716 UConn4523 said:


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until Allen went from bust to elite in the span of 24 months.



Allen was never a bust.



Whatever you say man. His rookie year stunk, plain and simple. He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when throwing.



Come on, you don't call someone a bust after one year, especially at QB. Was Peyton a bust after his rookie year? Eli?



No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.


But was it really coaching? Or were the coaches along for the ride as this enormously talented player adjusted to the league?

For the folks on the *it's coaching* side of the ledger, then just get the coach and have him work on Jones makes sense.

For the folks, like me, who are on the *it's talent* side of the ledger, we are sure Allen had good coaching but it is foolish to think Daboll will come here and turn Jones into Allen. He lacks the talent. We have to find a more talented QB to pair with Daboll.
So all they need to unlock the genius of Brian Daboll  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2022 12:04 pm : link
is a top 10 all-time physical talent at the QB position? That’s it?

I give Daboll a ton of credit for his work with Josh Allen, but if his previous inability to field even a middling offense doesn’t give one pause, I’m not sure what to say.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/28/2022 12:16 pm : link
Allen was drafted as a project. He was considered a boom/bust guy.
RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Johnny5 : 1/28/2022 12:40 pm : link
In comment 15579979 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.



Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.

I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.

I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.
There's no question  
BigBlueFootball44 : 1/28/2022 12:55 pm : link
in my mind that Daboll's offense benefitted from Allen's cannon arm. What we don't know: were plays designed by Daboll because Allen can do that, or was Allen making risky plays work?
RE: Daboll played an important role in the development of JA  
ZoneXDOA : 1/28/2022 1:24 pm : link
In comment 15579671 UberAlias said:
Quote:
That is a big notch on his resume. Allen didn't walk into the NFL as a great and complete product and the Bills offense was transformed to compliment Allen.


THIS. 100%
I’m still holding out hope  
5BowlsSoon : 1/28/2022 1:32 pm : link
That there is a qb coming out this year who could be another Josh Allen (well, close to another Allen). Even if drafted in the 2nd round or possibly the 3rd.

I’m not comfortable putting all my eggs in the DJones basket, especially seeing how fragile he is by taking all those hits. His body is not nearly as thick as Allen or Jackson and he doesn’t know how to go down properly.
RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2022 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15580089 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15579979 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.



Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.


I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.

I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.


I’m not claiming to know although it’s definitely a combination of everything to varying degrees.. My comment is about this years QB prospects, Allen came in with lots of scrutiny. That’s it.
RE: RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Section331 : 1/28/2022 1:49 pm : link
In comment 15580089 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15579979 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.



Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.


I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.

I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.


Josh Allen himself praised the work of both Daboll and Dorsey, so we have a bit of a clue.
If Josh Allen was such a born star  
Mike from Ohio : 1/28/2022 2:02 pm : link
why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.
RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.


Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.

You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.
RE: It will be Schoen's job  
Adirondack GMen : 1/28/2022 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15579661 section125 said:
Quote:
to find a JOsh Allen or Patrick Mahomes for Daboll, if Daboll is chosen.



We already have that ……F R O M M. -;)
Couldn’t resist….
Remember Daboll was basically a nobody until Josh Allen stepped into  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:14 pm : link
his life.

The best thing Daboll can do for us is look at Daniel Jones and be honest about his ceiling. And then tell Mara, he's not the guy.

That is what Daboll can be good for. He spent a few years with an absolute elite talent, so he should know an elite talent when he sees one. That's worth something. Anything to stop the pussyfooting around with Jones, and the endless period of evaluation that some posters think he *deserves*.

Jones doesn't deserve anything more from the Giants. We already made him a millionaire.

RE: RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2022 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15580320 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.



Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.

You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.


I love your posting with such authority on all matters Josh Allen. We all know his size and arm talent, you aren’t the only one who recognized those attributes. But we’ve also seen similarly talented players fail, hence why it’s an interesting scenario and why people are wondering how much input Daboll and his other coaches have had.

Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
RE: RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
Mike from Ohio : 1/28/2022 2:20 pm : link
In comment 15580320 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.



Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.

You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.


Who said he would turn Jones into Allen? He would be being brought here to coach whoever replaces Jones.

And I will let the statement that Allen is achieving everything off script to stand as it is as most people can fully evaluate that on their own.

But at least on the bright side, the Giants can't screw up the coaching staff hires because coaching doesn't matter!
RE: RE: RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:24 pm : link
In comment 15580340 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15580320 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.



Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.

You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.



I love your posting with such authority on all matters Josh Allen. We all know his size and arm talent, you aren’t the only one who recognized those attributes. But we’ve also seen similarly talented players fail, hence why it’s an interesting scenario and why people are wondering how much input Daboll and his other coaches have had.

Why is that so hard for you to grasp?


It starts with the talent. Not with the coach. Daboll failed to distinguish himself in any regard until he had an elite talent.

You want someone who can literally turn a mediocre talent into a productive QB? Resurrect Bill Walsh. The greatest offensive mind in the history of the game. And even he wasn't satisfied with the player he resurrected, Steve DeBerg, and went out and got a great QB instead.

I am saying the coach is not the answer to the QB. Andy Reid had a really good QB and a playoff team. Wasn't enough for him. We should think the same way. Getting Daboll should not dictate whether we stick with mediocre talent.
RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
bw in dc : 1/28/2022 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.


Being drafted 7th overall is still pretty damn flattering.

Allen was drafted that high because he had elite, God given physical skills that gave him a chance to be a star.

He absolutely benefitted from coaching. But I think the coaching benefitted more from his talent.
Ryan Dunleavy  
Ira : 1/28/2022 2:27 pm : link
@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.
RE: RE: RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15580342 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15580320 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.



Most of Josh Allen's big plays are completely out of structure. They didn't coach him to be good at that. You guys are overrating what a coach can do with a QB. He doesn't have a coach in his ear telling him how to evade a rush, how to keep his cool, how to keep his eyes downfield and wait until a play unfolds. That's all auto reaction. If you think Daboll is going to coach Jones into Allen you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a coincidence that Josh Allen is one of the four most talented QBs in the league and also one of the best.

You can't coach a mediocre talent like Jones to become a stud like Allen. Stop fantasizing about it.



Who said he would turn Jones into Allen? He would be being brought here to coach whoever replaces Jones.

And I will let the statement that Allen is achieving everything off script to stand as it is as most people can fully evaluate that on their own.

But at least on the bright side, the Giants can't screw up the coaching staff hires because coaching doesn't matter!


Good let him work with the next guy. I didn't say coaching doesn't matter. I said coaching won't turn a mediocre talent into an elite talent.

Please don't misrepresent my comments. Of course we want great coaches for a whole host of reasons. But turning Jones into Allen, or anything close, is a fantasy.
Ryan Dunleavy  
Ira : 1/28/2022 2:27 pm : link
@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.
im making a plea  
blueblood : 1/28/2022 2:29 pm : link
please go educate yourself on Daboll and his play design. Daboll has helped Allen flourish and as a result Daboll is in demand as a coach. Its not one thing or the other.
Producer  
Mike from Ohio : 1/28/2022 2:31 pm : link
NOBODY but you is suggesting that someone would turn Jones into Allen. The only person suggesting that is the thought it you.

If you want to argue a point nobody is making, maybe start a different thread because you are cluttering this one with yoru strawman argument.
RE: im making a plea  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:32 pm : link
In comment 15580358 blueblood said:
Quote:
please go educate yourself on Daboll and his play design. Daboll has helped Allen flourish and as a result Daboll is in demand as a coach. Its not one thing or the other.


If you put Jones in the Daboll offense he will fail, in spades.

Allen processes the field quickly. He evades pressure effectively. When he sees an opening downfield he releases quickly and the ball gets there with uncanny zip. Allen is great at extending plays and he keeps a cool head.

Jones is terrible at all these things.

It is easy to design plays for a QB who can almost do it all.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15580365 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
NOBODY but you is suggesting that someone would turn Jones into Allen. The only person suggesting that is the thought it you.

If you want to argue a point nobody is making, maybe start a different thread because you are cluttering this one with yoru strawman argument.


Really? Because I am hearing a lot of let's get Daboll and give Jones a chance to succeed under his development.

But the only QB development success Daboll ever had was Josh Allen. That to me is akin to people saying do for Jones what you did for Josh Allen.
RE: RE: Producer  
Mike from Ohio : 1/28/2022 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15580372 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15580365 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


NOBODY but you is suggesting that someone would turn Jones into Allen. The only person suggesting that is the thought it you.

If you want to argue a point nobody is making, maybe start a different thread because you are cluttering this one with yoru strawman argument.



Really? Because I am hearing a lot of let's get Daboll and give Jones a chance to succeed under his development.

But the only QB development success Daboll ever had was Josh Allen. That to me is akin to people saying do for Jones what you did for Josh Allen.


Making Jones a better player (if possible) is not at all the same thing as turning Jones into Josh Allen.
RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:42 pm : link
In comment 15580375 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15580372 Producer said:


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In comment 15580365 Mike from Ohio said:


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NOBODY but you is suggesting that someone would turn Jones into Allen. The only person suggesting that is the thought it you.

If you want to argue a point nobody is making, maybe start a different thread because you are cluttering this one with yoru strawman argument.



Really? Because I am hearing a lot of let's get Daboll and give Jones a chance to succeed under his development.

But the only QB development success Daboll ever had was Josh Allen. That to me is akin to people saying do for Jones what you did for Josh Allen.



Making Jones a better player (if possible) is not at all the same thing as turning Jones into Josh Allen.


Well I think you have learned the wrong lesson.

Daboll got an elite talent and made a Super Bowl caliber offense around his skills.

He didn't take a mediocre QB and make him elite.

I think we should follow the actual blue print the Bills did - get an elite talent at QB.

And I don't think we should pretend that what they did was turn a mediocrity into a playoff stud.
RE: RE: RE: Producer  
rsjem1979 : 1/28/2022 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15580375 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:

Making Jones a better player (if possible) is not at all the same thing as turning Jones into Josh Allen.


Which makes the question, how much better can Daniel Jones be?

He doesn't have anywhere near Allen's arm. He doesn't have his agility or instincts in avoiding the rush. He's not as big. Not as fast. Not as elusive.

There isn't a single thing Daniel Jones does as well as Josh Allen as a QB. At this point, it's not important to me that Jones makes modest improvements despite his limitations.

To be honest, I believe that any improvements made by Jones will convince ownership to push for a contract extension that will ultimately hurt the Giants in the long run.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15580399 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 15580375 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:



Making Jones a better player (if possible) is not at all the same thing as turning Jones into Josh Allen.



Which makes the question, how much better can Daniel Jones be?

He doesn't have anywhere near Allen's arm. He doesn't have his agility or instincts in avoiding the rush. He's not as big. Not as fast. Not as elusive.

There isn't a single thing Daniel Jones does as well as Josh Allen as a QB. At this point, it's not important to me that Jones makes modest improvements despite his limitations.

To be honest, I believe that any improvements made by Jones will convince ownership to push for a contract extension that will ultimately hurt the Giants in the long run.


yes, I agree with you here. It's the worst case scenario. Jones improves from 23rd best QB to 18th best and they think because he is improving, therefore he is the answer. Meanwhile Dallas, Philly and WFT don't settle for such poor production. And we'll be last place losers for the next 3 years while we continue to hope for some Jones bump into greatness, that never happens.
RE: Ryan Dunleavy  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2022 2:52 pm : link
In comment 15580350 Ira said:
Quote:
@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.


The Tua comment is really strange. He’s a very limited QB. What he did in college shouldn’t matter anymore. If he’s turned into a game changer the convo changes but to say that now is kinda bullshit.
RE: RE: Ryan Dunleavy  
Producer : 1/28/2022 2:54 pm : link
In comment 15580409 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15580350 Ira said:


Quote:


@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.



The Tua comment is really strange. He’s a very limited QB. What he did in college shouldn’t matter anymore. If he’s turned into a game changer the convo changes but to say that now is kinda bullshit.


yes.. it's also disingenuous.

Everybody knew Tua was a risk coming out, mainly because of his hip, but also he was not considered a high upside traits guy. His special skill was accuracy.

Meanwhile everybody knew that Allen had exceedingly high upside, much higher than Tua. But the knock on him was that he was inaccurate.
RE: RE: If Josh Allen was such a born star  
Jimmy Googs : 1/28/2022 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15580349 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15580308 Mike from Ohio said:


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why did he last until the 7th pick (3rd QB off the board)?

He was seen as very raw and a developmental guy with a high ceiling. If it was just a matter of handing him the ball and letting him "figure out the NFL," don't you think he would have been the first overall pick?

Josh Allen is an amazing talent, but to pretend coaching had nothing to do with his development is silly.



Being drafted 7th overall is still pretty damn flattering.

Allen was drafted that high because he had elite, God given physical skills that gave him a chance to be a star.

He absolutely benefitted from coaching. But I think the coaching benefitted more from his talent.


He also lasted until 7th because the Touched by the Hand of God types go early...
RE: Ryan Dunleavy  
blueblood : 1/28/2022 3:04 pm : link
In comment 15580354 Ira said:
Quote:
@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.


Its interesting that everyone keep going back to what Daboll did before Allen, but no one talks about how he went back to college, or how he looked at college and even high school offenses to see different play design and learn how to attack defenses.
RE: there wasn't an Allen available in Allen's draft either  
Johnny5 : 1/28/2022 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15580274 Section331 said:
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In comment 15580089 Johnny5 said:


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In comment 15579979 Section331 said:


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In comment 15579880 UConn4523 said:


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No, it’s called nuance. My entire point was that Josh Allen can in with a ton of red flag and showed why his rookie year. It took time, coaching, and growing for him to be what he was.

And I bring that up because everyone seems to think there’s no QB worth taking high in this years draft because red flags exist. Well, they did with Allen too.



Yeah, I posted my response before seeing your other comments. I agree with you, the idea that Daboll benefited from Allen's play yet had nothing to do with his development is specious at best. Allen was an absolute mess coming out of Wyoming, and he credits Daboll (and QB coach Ken Dorsey), with helping him get ready. That's good enough for me.


I don't think anyone says Allen was not effectively coached up. He clearly got better year over year. But no one posting here knows who was the most responsible. Was it Dorsey? McDermott? Daboll? Someone else on that staff? Was it a wholly collective effort on the part of the staff? None of us has any idea.

I see all this defense of who people want (and I get it) but the truth is we don't really know what happened in Buffalo or what to expect here from one guy who we bring in as the head coach. And having said that I like Flores, but I certainly wouldn't hate signing Daboll. None of us really has a clue, but I'm just surprised at such strong opinions about it.



Josh Allen himself praised the work of both Daboll and Dorsey, so we have a bit of a clue.

Oh no doubt. And I'm not saying Daboll didn't have anything to do with Allen's success. It's just obviously hard to quantify. It's why I won't be upset if he's the guy. That said, I still like Flores best of all the candidates... lol
RE: I think there is more time to let that work itself out than we think  
Ivan15 : 1/28/2022 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15579951 aka dbrny said:
Quote:
They are not going to be a SuperBowl contender this year. They can afford to let Jones play out his contract year. They have a 5th year option available that they can use if needed.

They can then use this year to upgrade the weak spots on the lines and use the season as Jones' last chance to show he has the stuff (or not).

As insurance, they can bring in a vet or draft someone with potential if the draft falls right for them. That then gives them room, as you suggest, to hunt for someone that maybe has the right tools but is from a small school or has some question marks.

I think they have to commit to the 5th year option by May. The only additional information they will have is that they may know who the backup QB will be.
RE: Ryan Dunleavy  
bw in dc : 1/28/2022 3:52 pm : link
In comment 15580354 Ira said:
Quote:
@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.


I know you are the messenger, but Tua was almost as over-drafted as Jones. I don't really like the idea of bringing in Flores, but I think was saddled with Tua and was right - if the reports are true - in pushing for Herbert instead of Tua.

I think it's reasonable to question how much Daboll's offense helped Allen blossom. Allen just makes too many plays off-script that produce points. However, he deserves credit for the development of Allen as a QB. That is an important factor.
RE: Ryan Dunleavy  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2022 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15580354 Ira said:
Quote:
@rydunleavy
Brian Daboll is getting knocked because his offenses weren’t special before he was paired with #Bills Josh Allen. Like anyone could develop a top-10 picked QB. Except Brian Flores failed Tua, who was once considered a great prospect — certainly better than Allen out of college.


Failed Tua? Has this guy watched actual football games? What a ridiculous comment.
It certainly helps to have Allen  
Matt M. : 1/28/2022 4:16 pm : link
But, I have liked Daboll's play calling in the few Buffalo games I've watched the last couple of years.
RE: RE: im making a plea  
blueblood : 1/28/2022 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15580366 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15580358 blueblood said:


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please go educate yourself on Daboll and his play design. Daboll has helped Allen flourish and as a result Daboll is in demand as a coach. Its not one thing or the other.



If you put Jones in the Daboll offense he will fail, in spades.

Allen processes the field quickly. He evades pressure effectively. When he sees an opening downfield he releases quickly and the ball gets there with uncanny zip. Allen is great at extending plays and he keeps a cool head.

Jones is terrible at all these things.

It is easy to design plays for a QB who can almost do it all.


Have Allen play in two different offenses in three years with three different offensive coordinators, for two different head coaches, with the WORST offensive line in football and receivers who struggle to get open and hold onto the ball and THEN you'll have a fair comparison
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